bet365 live roulette - rigged

maxpayne005

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Jun 24, 2008
Location
Bulgaria
I had some bad experience with bet365 few weeks ago. I was playing on mini-roulette just for the fun and I realized I don't get any money when winning. If I have 100 units, bet 1 on red/black and win I just get my 1 back and that's it. When I asked support he said that this is normal!!! Yeah, exactly, he was surprised that I want to get my 1 back + additional 1 unit:)

Anyway, this is not about the stupid support guy, but about the live dealer roulette.

From time to time the live feed freeze for a while or I get some flickering. After talking with other people in the chat it became clear that many people see that too. Now, the interesting part is that the hands of the dealer an all other element of the picture ARE TOTALLY OK. The only flickering part is on the wheel and ball - nothing else. So obviously if I see the dealer hand moving, but I don't see the wheel this is not a connection problem.

Now 4-5 days ago a guy said that he saw the ball landing on 20 and than after some picture freeze it was 20. I wasn't pay attention at this moment so I can't say if that is right, but that made me suspicious. The next day while we were playing we all saw the same thing happens the ball is landing on one number, that the feed is dead, than it goes back live and it's a completely other number. Everybody saw that and we were very angry. The pitboss went into the caht and he said he is cancelling the bet because they have technical problems!!! Technical problems my ass - they simply faked the result but a lot of people saw it so they couldn't just get away with that. So than a guy said that it was not fair, because he had a huge amount of money on that number (the first one, that we all saw as winning) so he won't get any money. Of course the casino just remained silent about that.

From that day I was paying attention and every time some flickering, video freeze or whatever happens some guy starts to swearing about how much money he just lost. Today was the same - some 14 blacks in a row with few video interruptions and a lot of people lost a lot of money. Again no reply from the casino why we can't see what is happening.

I'm completely sure that they cheat, somehow they place a fake (recorded) video feed over the real one so people with higher bets can loose. Of course they don't do it every spin, but just from time to time. It's up to you to decide if you are going to play there again, but I will go into as many gambling forums as I can find to tell the people what I saw there and to prevent people from loosing their money on that rigged casino.
 

vinylweatherman

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Oct 14, 2004
Location
United Kingdom
If this is a technical problem, the casino need to take this MORE SERIOUSLY - it looks like "cheating", and the fact that only certain parts of the picture suffer, not all of it, and the most important part too (the result), means that "cheating" will easily stick.


A similar issue surfaced recently, this time it was with an MG casino, a good one, where a player won a huge sum on their live roulette. Although the player was paid, MG held an investigation beforehand, which suggests they might be aware that the live roulette is not 100% secure from "tampering".

The whole point of the live game is that any ability to "cheat" is removed, as the result should be PHYSICALLY random, and not the result of pseudo-random determination through software.

Bet365 had better come up with an explanation that fits the observation that it was only the roulette wheel that was "obscured" during play by this problem, and not the entire picture.

Good evidence can be gathered by making a VIDEO of this problem in real time, a single screenshot is unlikely to give a fair impression of what is happening.
Said video could easily be shared on a site such as youtube, and more of us could see exactly what is being complained about.
 

funky_seagull

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Jun 1, 2008
Location
scotland
I hate to have to say this but I've also noticed something odd with the live roulette.

Bet365 is Playtech isn't it?

I have recently been playing on 2 different playtech sites, and playing the live roulette a lot lately.

I too have been noticing the said flickering on video and wierd results happening that don't seem random. In fact the flickering is very strange, at first I thought it might just be my bandwidth causing it to do this, but when other players started complaining about it, I felt worried.

I have definately been getting those messages from the pitboss telling the players that a respin is required, due to the ball not going round the cicumference of the wheel 3 times, to me it appeared to go round more than 3 times - there have been a lot of complaints from other players about this.

I don't want to accuse them of cheating, especially not someone as reputable as playtech; but this behaviour does seem odd. Especially because it has been happening a hell of a lot lately...

...and I can say I have never noticed this happening before, and I have been playing live roulette in playtech casinos for a while now...

I don't know if it is rigged. I would need more proof before I say this. But it does feel like something odd is going on.

I hope there is a good explanation, because I actually got fed up with this tonight and cashed out with the feeling I don't want to risk anymore money on live roulette, because it was happening too often.

I don't think I will bother with the MG roulette, with a minimum bet of $10. I think MG roulette is exclusively for the millionares club now.

Which is another odd thing I have noticed. Why are the minimum bets for live games often higher than they are for the computerized ones? The odds for both should be the same, so why make the minimum bet higher for the live version...

I wonder if things are going to get hairy with online casinos because of this credit crunch that is happening.

With the price of food, fuel and energy going up around the world, maybe the payouts will get tighter and the odds worse for online gamblers... I hope not...

but if less people gamble due to having less disposable income... casinos are going to be affected and will want to make up their profits somehow...
 

debbiek

Banned User
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Jun 28, 2007
Location
philadelphia
"With the price of food, fuel and energy going up around the world, maybe the payouts will get tighter and the odds worse for online gamblers... "

Don't you think this has already happened? If you read the threads on this site, the lower payouts and tight slots have been going on almost this entire year.



I hate to have to say this but I've also noticed something odd with the live roulette.

Bet365 is Playtech isn't it?

I have recently been playing on 2 different playtech sites, and playing the live roulette a lot lately.

I too have been noticing the said flickering on video and wierd results happening that don't seem random. In fact the flickering is very strange, at first I thought it might just be my bandwidth causing it to do this, but when other players started complaining about it, I felt worried.

I have definately been getting those messages from the pitboss telling the players that a respin is required, due to the ball not going round the cicumference of the wheel 3 times, to me it appeared to go round more than 3 times - there have been a lot of complaints from other players about this.

I don't want to accuse them of cheating, especially not someone as reputable as playtech; but this behaviour does seem odd. Especially because it has been happening a hell of a lot lately...

...and I can say I have never noticed this happening before, and I have been playing live roulette in playtech casinos for a while now...

I don't know if it is rigged. I would need more proof before I say this. But it does feel like something odd is going on.

I hope there is a good explanation, because I actually got fed up with this tonight and cashed out with the feeling I don't want to risk anymore money on live roulette, because it was happening too often.

I don't think I will bother with the MG roulette, with a minimum bet of $10. I think MG roulette is exclusively for the millionares club now.

Which is another odd thing I have noticed. Why are the minimum bets for live games often higher than they are for the computerized ones? The odds for both should be the same, so why make the minimum bet higher for the live version...

I wonder if things are going to get hairy with online casinos because of this credit crunch that is happening.

With the price of food, fuel and energy going up around the world, maybe the payouts will get tighter and the odds worse for online gamblers... I hope not...

but if less people gamble due to having less disposable income... casinos are going to be affected and will want to make up their profits somehow...
 

spearmaster

RIP Ted
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Casinomeister has seen the live studios himself. And so have I.

The short answer is that, while it is entirely possible there is a technical problem, it is 100% certain that no cheating is going on. None of the staff have any clue how much is being bet on what.

As for "faked" video, what do you think the TV screen in the background is for? If you don't believe it, you can turn on your TV (if you happen to have that particular channel on) and see for yourself. And why do you think you have a chat screen - try saying "Hello" to the dealer and you can watch her type her response live - or maybe ask her to wave to the camera, or touch the tip of her nose...

Do remember that streaming video is subject to the idiosyncrasies of the Internet.
 

GrandMaster

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UK
Which is another odd thing I have noticed. Why are the minimum bets for live games often higher than they are for the computerized ones? The odds for both should be the same, so why make the minimum bet higher for the live version...
Live roulette is slower and the casino has to pay the dealer, which is more expensive than just running a computer.
 

Rhyzz

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Jan 4, 2008
Location
United Kingdom
The Playtech live studios are based in the Phillipines aren't they? They don't have the best Internet connections to say the least, and you mention the 'flickering' is only on the wheel/ball?

Possibly a stream issue? If the ball and wheel are moving quickly then it's not going to look too good if there is a lack of bandwidth available at Playtech's side or if the Camera is a bit rubbish.
 

funky_seagull

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scotland
As for "faked" video, what do you think the TV screen in the background is for? If you don't believe it, you can turn on your TV (if you happen to have that particular channel on) and see for yourself.



There isn't a TV screen in the background of live roulette or blackjack - only live baccarat has the tv screen in the background.
 

funky_seagull

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Live roulette is slower and the casino has to pay the dealer, which is more expensive than just running a computer.

maybe... but over the course of an hour's play, the casino still makes a packet compared to the dealer's hourly wage, and not everyone places minimum bets on the table.
 

BigJock

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May 21, 2008
Location
Mississippi
Live roulette is slower and the casino has to pay the dealer, which is more expensive than just running a computer.

When running an online casino, especially live. You will have state of the art technology. Their feeds are hi tech. And I don't buy its slower because of this or that. Online casinos have known to CHEAT. We should stop trying to ration with causes..."Oh it's because of this", or "It's because of that". Why can't it be that this places CHEATS when large bets are on the line? If they can fix the out come of NBA, NFL, Boxing or even an election. Surely something simple as live roulette is a walk in the park. You know how many trends I've read over the years, when someone complain UB was rigged? And people would say "Oh, it's just because you play 10X as many hands...etc." Then will it's proven the nay sayers, wants to jump on the bandwagon and boycott UB.
 

funky_seagull

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scotland
Casinomeister has seen the live studios himself. And so have I.

The short answer is that, while it is entirely possible there is a technical problem, it is 100% certain that no cheating is going on. None of the staff have any clue how much is being bet on what.

Do remember that streaming video is subject to the idiosyncrasies of the Internet.


If the staff can't see what people are betting on, then it would be impossible to cheat.

But does that include the pitboss, can the pitboss see what players are betting on?

Is it possible the actual casino the player is using could interfere with the video, not playtech or asian logic?

It is hard to ever know what the truth is. The philipines is a long way from here, online casinos are safely behind your computer screen. We can only go by what we are told.

It could be rigged...

... or it could be players who have had an unlucky day at the tables and need someone or something to blame for their losses... and unfortunately the video streaming going down is a good thing to start throwing stones at...
 

Casinomeister

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Janek12

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Casinomeister has seen the live studios himself. And so have I.

The short answer is that, while it is entirely possible there is a technical problem, it is 100% certain that no cheating is going on. None of the staff have any clue how much is being bet on what.

As for "faked" video, what do you think the TV screen in the background is for? If you don't believe it, you can turn on your TV (if you happen to have that particular channel on) and see for yourself. And why do you think you have a chat screen - try saying "Hello" to the dealer and you can watch her type her response live - or maybe ask her to wave to the camera, or touch the tip of her nose...

Do remember that streaming video is subject to the idiosyncrasies of the Internet.

Could you please respond to the really relevant issues raised in the previous posts? I will do my best not to sound irritated (I gathered that you earn your money as an affiliate so you have some vested interests here so I find your evasive answers rather irritating):

1) Why does the pitboss say it is necessary to cancel the result of a spin for the reason that the ball did not go around more than 3 times in spite of the fact that everyone saw it did? I saw it myself happen ca 2 times and I had the impression that the ball went around a lot more than 3 times. Since it seems many more people saw situations like this, I think it cannot be deemed that all of us are "seeing things".

2) All the "proof" you state about live TV broadcast (CNN I think) and the dealer waving to players does not exclude the easy possibility of super-imposing (I hope this is the correct English term) a pre-recorded video recording of the wheel and the ball alone on the actual picture (leaving the rest of the picture, i.e. the dealer, the CNN live broadcast, etc., intact). With the graphic resolution of the available video stream, this should not be technically difficult, IMO.
However, for this kind of cheating the dealers would have to be really callous and I am reluctant to think that the cute girls might be so evil. :)
But technically speaking, it is not impossibe IMO.
 
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Rusty

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I would like to see a video of this to make my own mind up but if it is broadcast on TV as has been said then there seems to be no problem.

If it is not broadcast on TV then the questions are;

1) Can they cheat?
2) Would they cheat?

Each person will have their own view on that but IMO the answer to question 1 has to be Yes.

$10 minimum bet seems high to me as most B&M Casinos have much smaller min bets and yet much larger overheads.
 

Janek12

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On second thought I think it is really unfeasible to fake the results - I mean showing a different number than the one on which the ball landed in front of the dealer's eyes.The risk of such a fraud being exposed would not be worth it for the casino.

However, I would be amazed if the operator of the live feed (the Asian something company) and the casino managers did not have exact real-time overview of how much is bet on each number at every spin, considering the possibilities offered by the current state-of-the-art computer technology.

But the Asian something company provides the live feed to many casinos and how would they decide, which casino to damage and which to benefit by cancelling a proper spin?

Also, if it is true that the Asian something company gets the THEORETICAL profit of the casinos (I think read something like this on their website or in a post of their representative here), then they would have no incentive whatsoever to cheat; they leave the risk on the casinos.

So my conclusion is that although I tend to think the worst about the current humanity overall, I think such an extensive conspiracy that would make it possible to cheat with live roulette is highly improbable.

But still the question remains: Why does the pitboss sometimes cancel a spin, stating that the ball did not go around more than 3 times, while many, many players saw it did go around more than 3 times?

I have no idea what the truthful answer to this question can be.
 

funky_seagull

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scotland
is there anyone who can film this happening and post it on youtube? Just to let more people who haven't seen this happen decide...

I cant get the video on my camera to work...

I don't think live tv in background is much use in roulette anyway - as camera zooms into the wheel during spin excluding all else in background.

A casino could bribe a corrupt pitboss to do it... But i think they would have to be stupid to do this. As a bad reputation would ruin their business and isn't worth the risk...
 

Janek12

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There are softwares that can capture a video stream similarly like when one captures a static picture by using PrintScreen.

I once downloaded one freeware of this kind but was unable to make it work.

According to my experience, the strangely cancelled spin is a rare occurrence; I think I played almost the whole day and I encountered ca 2 occurrences of this kind during all that time or maybe it was just once on that day, can't remember exactly.

So this research might require considerable patience and effort...

I am curious to see if any gamblers start this research... I am not going to do so. I am impatient and I gamble in an attempt to raise funds effortlessly :D
 

lauram

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toronto
Im not taking sides on any of this just my point of view. If you think they are cheating wouldnt you think they would do it in a better way. Instead of freezing the feed or whatever. Would they not just look at the bet toss ball in and have it either weighed magnet or whatever so the players playing live could view the ball not landing in their spots. Im not sure a casino that would cheat would make it that easy for us players in pain view to see.
 

vinylweatherman

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Strong views that cheating at these live feeds is impossible,

yet, when a player won a huge sum at live roulette a while back, the Microgaming version, Microgaming felt it necessary to audit the gameplay before making payment - therefore, even the big industry players are not 100% confident about this product, and when very large sums are won, will audit the session. It therefore makes sense that when players experience an adverse run they want more than "possible technical glitches", they want an audit, and a full explanation, of the issues in question.

They could help by having a completely independent auditing outfit in the studio, making a recording of proceedings (not live - high resolution), that would be kept in case of such disputes. The recording would need to be made with tamper proof equipment and date/time stamped, and dealt with by an organisation completely independent of the industry. A regulatory authority would be the best party for this, so long as it didn't suffer from corruption.

Leaving the issue unresolved is only going to lead to further rumours of cheating, and eventually they will stick, more so if some silly casino decides to use "cheating at live roulette" as a convenient excuse to void winnings because they didn't like how someone played with a bonus.
 

Casinomeister

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... (I gathered that you earn your money as an affiliate so you have some vested interests here so I find your evasive answers rather irritating):
Just an admin note that you need to check this sort of assumptive attitude at the door. You are making the assumption on Spear's source of income and that this influences his posts. Spearmaster has been a member of this board for years and has dealt with all issues with integrity and candor.

Please refrain from this approach. Thank you.
 

Janek12

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Just an admin note that you need to check this sort of assumptive attitude at the door. You are making the assumption on Spear's source of income and that this influences his posts. Spearmaster has been a member of this board for years and has dealt with all issues with integrity and candor.

Please refrain from this approach. Thank you.

You are right, I apologise to Spearmaster for this personal comment; I should not have said that.
 

spearmaster

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Strong views that cheating at these live feeds is impossible,

yet, when a player won a huge sum at live roulette a while back, the Microgaming version, Microgaming felt it necessary to audit the gameplay before making payment - therefore, even the big industry players are not 100% confident about this product, and when very large sums are won, will audit the session. It therefore makes sense that when players experience an adverse run they want more than "possible technical glitches", they want an audit, and a full explanation, of the issues in question.

Please can you show me where I said "all live feeds"? I said I have visited the studios from which the Bet365 feed is served. And as you well know, Bet365 is not Microgaming.

Janek, whatever info it is you gathered was misleading - I am not an active affiliate and have not earned any income in this manner for nearly 3 years. I will ignore your bit about the evasive answers, as you will see, I have not been evasive at all. So kindly forgive me if I sound a bit irritated at the tone of your post.

Your first post about "superimposing" was plain ridiculous, but at least you have seen that this is not realistic. I have already pointed out that you can ask the dealer to wave, touch the tip of her nose, whatever, to show you that the feed is real. Surely you don't think she's being superimposed in the picture?

Canceling a spin because the ball did not go around enough times happens in land-based casinos as well. If a dealer makes a spin that is clearly errant she will immediately call out to the pitboss - in a land-based casino, there is always a second person present if not the pitboss and the spin can verbally be declared void - however, in a studio, no one keeps a pitboss by the side of the wheel all the time, as the pitboss has a lot of other things to take care of.

So she will still indicate in some manner, probably by voice (I haven't seen it so I can't say) to the pitboss that he/she is needed, and the pitboss will come to the area where the roulette wheel is. The OP did not make mention of any 3 spin problem in any case - the bet was cancelled by the pitboss because of a "technical problem" - which obviously isn't that clear, but certainly is not the issue you bring up.

As far as I know, there is no live bet data anywhere in the studio, though I will be happy to check that when I next visit. It's not like "ooh - most people are betting red, so make sure you hit black" or "aha- no one bet on 0 - let's put the ball there" - do you realize just how hard this is to do?

The other reason there should not be any live bet data is to prevent any chance of collusion between a dealer and a player - if the dealer doesn't know what is being bet, how can she possibly collude?

I believe you will agree that this works both ways.

With regard to the stream breaking up on the wheel - this is simply a video compression matter. If you try to serve a live feed with little or slow activity, it's very easy to do - but as soon as the action gets fast, video compression becomes much more tedious. Obviously trying to serve live, uninterrupted, clear video of a moving roulette wheel is not exactly that simple, and for that reason you will see that sometimes the wheel stutters.

After that, you have the vagaries of the Internet - who knows if the bottleneck is at the point of the feed, or on your own doorstep, or any one of up to 30 hops in between?

You have to put things in perspective. Live video streaming - of ANY sort, not just for live dealer gaming - is far from perfect. It is simply ridiculous to blame the problem solely on the feed provider.

Re: the TV, good point Funky Seagull :) Nevertheless you can still chat with the dealer and ask her to do something on screen (you males don't get your hopes up though).
 

suzecat

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Spear (and CM)........truly sorry for the derail.......had to say HELLO to you .............it's been ages since I have seen you here! Now, I will say goodday and go look at that elephant's hiney.........:D
 
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