bet365 live roulette - rigged

[vinylweatherman]

Please can you show me where I said "all live feeds"? I said I have visited the studios from which the Bet365 feed is served. And as you well know, Bet365 is not Microgaming.

You did not say "all live feeds". I was referring to general opinion in this, and other threads, with regard to the live feeds used by casinos that are NOT in the rogue pit. I would consider a Microgaming live feed to be as reliable and tamper proof as the one you visited, which is why I am still puzzled about that audit on the big winner, even though they were paid afterwards - it is a fright players can do without, and should have been unnecessary if the integrity of the feed was 100%.

Simply telling players something went wrong because of "technical problems" is asking for trouble, especially for those players who saw the ball land in a winning number, only to then be told their bets have been voided because of a "technical issue", while at the same time they are pondering the significance of the oddities and stuttering video feed. When they lose their bet on the next spin, and don't see what was wrong with the first one, they are more than likely to think something unsavoury is going on, and will try to work out what it is. Given that many Playtech casinos have a habit of screwing players, it is easy to suspect this is yet another method to rig a game where too many players are beating the casino.
Some observers have dismissed the less than three circuits explanation as they believe they saw the ball make more than the required three circuits, yet the spin was still voided.
One of the original reasons for having live feeds was because players were suspicious of software driven randomness, but now it seems even live feeds are no longer being trusted 100%.

 

[Janek12]

Janek, whatever info it is you gathered was misleading - I am not an active affiliate and have not earned any income in this manner for nearly 3 years. I will ignore your bit about the evasive answers, as you will see, I have not been evasive at all. So kindly forgive me if I sound a bit irritated at the tone of your post.

I really once again apologise to you for that remark, I don't know what got into me.

Your first post about "superimposing" was plain ridiculous, but at least you have seen that this is not realistic. I have already pointed out that you can ask the dealer to wave, touch the tip of her nose, whatever, to show you that the feed is real. Surely you don't think she's being superimposed in the picture?

No , I was talking about the technical possibility of superimposing just the ball and the wheel (leaving the rest of the picture intact). Due to other factors (lots of people would have to be in the conspiracy and the risk would not be worth it for the company operating the live feed) I dismissed this type of fraud as being actually impossible.

The OP did not make mention of any 3 spin problem in any case - the bet was cancelled by the pitboss because of a "technical problem" - which obviously isn't that clear, but certainly is not the issue you bring up.

funky seagull wrote about this in his post preceding your post. That was why I wondered why you did not mention this issue because IMO this is the only point where actually something weird might possibly be going on. Otherwise there is no chance of cheating, IMO, as I also write below.

And I have experienced the same thing twice though I cannot be 100% sure due to the flickering of the wheel (I understand that this is due to the higher speed at which the wheel moves as compared to the rest of the picture).

As far as I know, there is no live bet data anywhere in the studio, though I will be happy to check that when I next visit. It's not like "ooh - most people are betting red, so make sure you hit black" or "aha- no one bet on 0 - let's put the ball there" - do you realize just how hard this is to do?

The other reason there should not be any live bet data is to prevent any chance of collusion between a dealer and a player - if the dealer doesn't know what is being bet, how can she possibly collude?

I thought some managers sitting in front of rows of computer monitors might have some real-time information on this. Of course, the question is of what purpose would such a real-time information be. I myself pointed out that so many casinos use this video feed that helping one casino by cancelling a spin might mean taking a profit from some other casino. But in theory, a situation could arise in which cancelling a spin might benefit all the casinos (however, this would require a secret agreement between the casinos and the operator of the live feed, which is a different organisation that the casinos).

I am mentioning this because this is now my only concern: a cancelling of a spin, allegedly due to the ball not going around 3 times, while I think that it did go around something like 8 times.
Vinylweatherman as usually has an excellent comment on this, IMO. I, too, think that this could easily be solved by a high-resolution video recording of all the happenings at the wheel being accessible to players. The fact that this is not available (unlike with MG live roulette, if I understood the MG mechanism correctly) is not good, IMO.

Other than the cancelling of a spin of the above-mentioned kind, I am personally quite sure that this live roulette cannot be rigged, after reflecting on the matter more thoroughly.

With regard to the stream breaking up on the wheel - this is simply a video compression matter. If you try to serve a live feed with little or slow activity, it's very easy to do - but as soon as the action gets fast, video compression becomes much more tedious. Obviously trying to serve live, uninterrupted, clear video of a moving roulette wheel is not exactly that simple, and for that reason you will see that sometimes the wheel stutters.

After that, you have the vagaries of the Internet - who knows if the bottleneck is at the point of the feed, or on your own doorstep, or any one of up to 30 hops in between?

Yes, I completely agree with you on this.

 

[Rhyzz]

When running an online casino, especially live. You will have state of the art technology. Their feeds are hi tech. And I don't buy its slower because of this or that. Online casinos have known to CHEAT. We should stop trying to ration with causes..."Oh it's because of this", or "It's because of that". Why can't it be that this places CHEATS when large bets are on the line? If they can fix the out come of NBA, NFL, Boxing or even an election. Surely something simple as live roulette is a walk in the park. You know how many trends I've read over the years, when someone complain UB was rigged? And people would say "Oh, it's just because you play 10X as many hands...etc." Then will it's proven the nay sayers, wants to jump on the bandwagon and boycott UB.

This is all very well and I agree, match fixing does happen, some casino's do probably cheat us out of our money....but you're talking about bet365 who use the Playtech platform, somehow I don't think they're in business to cheat the little guy out of their money.

Also...

Some observers have dismissed the less than three circuits explanation as they believe they saw the ball make more than the required three circuits, yet the spin was still voided.

VWM - The 3 circuits of the wheel, as far as I know, isn't an actual Casino rule, it's an unwritten rule, therefore to void a bet because the ball didn't make 3 complete circuits is nonsense, and any live game I played on I would demand a payout.

 

[spearmaster]

As Rhyzz said - the 3 spin rule is not fixed - in a land-based casino, the pitboss can void any spin but generally uses at least 3 circuits.

However, in a situation with mechanical detection - for example, the roulette machines you see all over Europe - it's the sensor that must detect at least three passes, otherwise the bets are voided.

Funky Seagull said he thought he saw more than 3 spins - could indeed be possible - I do not know whether the live studios are dependent on sensors to detect three spins or not though.

If Janek saw 8 spins, there is no way the pitboss could or would have ruled less than 3 spins, unless he is dependent on a sensor to tell him how many spins took place. This would then be a mechanical problem thus rendering the spin void - but do keep in mind no one loses money when a spin is declared void - I am 100% certain it is not because the pitboss saw a huge anomaly in betting - and by the way, the pitboss does not work for any casino which takes the shared feed. Janek has already pointed out the unlikeliness of something like this taking place.

Re: video - I am of the impression that video is taken. However, it is probably not something that can easily be reviewed at a moment's notice. The reading of a sensor, however, would be immediate. I do, however, highly doubt that a video record would ever be made available to the player, certainly not through the software, whether it be Microgaming, Playtech, CasinoWebcam or any of the feed providers in the business.

Without seeing the actual spins which caused the issues, I certainly can't explain much more than that. However, I do think that each "game" is numbered and thus if you see an anomaly, you can record the number and ask support@whichevercasino for a review. And if you feel you have been unfairly affected by the result of a spin, you can obviously also PAB here

 

[spearmaster]

You did not say "all live feeds". I was referring to general opinion in this, and other threads, with regard to the live feeds used by casinos that are NOT in the rogue pit. I would consider a Microgaming live feed to be as reliable and tamper proof as the one you visited, which is why I am still puzzled about that audit on the big winner, even though they were paid afterwards - it is a fright players can do without, and should have been unnecessary if the integrity of the feed was 100%.

Forgot to respond to this - I think it is perfectly normal to order an audit on such a big win. For all they know, there could be some hole they haven't covered. I would not be surprised if an audit were carried out in a land-based situation on a $400K win.

As I have no knowledge of Microgaming's equipment and procedures, I am in no position whatsoever to comment on their reliability. However, I highly doubt all feed providers use the same equipment or procedures and one can never guarantee 100% reliability or tamper-proof of anything where a human is involved, I'm sure you'd agree, irrespective of the people behind the feed, or indeed in other situations which involve human interaction (for example, a teller at a bank).