Ask me anything (about slots)!
- Thread starter trancemonkey
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TheresNoDInBonanza
Non-Gambler
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This may have been asked previously, but do you have any moral dilemma with your work? Do you equate yourself with the ad executive promoting cigarettes or booze? Or do you not think about it a great deal?
To be clear I'm not trying to attack you, god knows we all need to work, I just know that it would weigh on me, if I were in your place.
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- Feb 12, 2013
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- Wales
Hello, this is mainly targeted at the UK changes about to happen in bookies B2 from £100 to £2 stakes.
I have seen a version of Electrocoin Roulette Cat C £100, where each £1 stake press adds £1 to a Cashpot, once 3 XXX symbols spin in then the Cashpot is awarded to the player to stake on roulette.
Would it be likely that we see that happen now the bookies roulette will be capped at £2?
In essence, the max stake is £2 but a Cashpot could legally have a 100% feed and build to a £100 maximum amount to be used to bet on roulette or collect. Is this compliant?
I have noticed Novomatic tested the same game but was pulled quickly.
I feel that it's pushing the limits a bit really, I wouldn't be surprised if SG are working on this right now.
Rob
I have seen a version of Electrocoin Roulette Cat C £100, where each £1 stake press adds £1 to a Cashpot, once 3 XXX symbols spin in then the Cashpot is awarded to the player to stake on roulette.
Would it be likely that we see that happen now the bookies roulette will be capped at £2?
In essence, the max stake is £2 but a Cashpot could legally have a 100% feed and build to a £100 maximum amount to be used to bet on roulette or collect. Is this compliant?
I have noticed Novomatic tested the same game but was pulled quickly.
I feel that it's pushing the limits a bit really, I wouldn't be surprised if SG are working on this right now.
Rob
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- Mar 29, 2013
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- United Kingdom
Hello, this is mainly targeted at the UK changes about to happen in bookies B2 from £100 to £2 stakes.
I have seen a version of Electrocoin Roulette Cat C £100, where each £1 stake press adds £1 to a Cashpot, once 3 XXX symbols spin in then the Cashpot is awarded to the player to stake on roulette.
Would it be likely that we see that happen now the bookies roulette will be capped at £2?
In essence, the max stake is £2 but a Cashpot could legally have a 100% feed and build to a £100 maximum amount to be used to bet on roulette or collect. Is this compliant?
I have noticed Novomatic tested the same game but was pulled quickly.
I feel that it's pushing the limits a bit really, I wouldn't be surprised if SG are working on this right now.
Rob
It's legal in CAT C as you are allowed a 100% holdover (after a non-winning game).
I'm not sure about other categories off the top of my head.
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- Mar 29, 2013
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I think of it like this...
If I didn't do it, someone else would. I hate to think that what we so could ruin someone's life... But then so do cigarettes, cars, guns, and a whole other plethora of stuff people use the wrong way....
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I think a lot of people in the industry think like that. Either it's completely illegal, and nobody gambles, which is maybe the best scenario. But that's not realistic, people have always wanted to, and will gamble. So you regulate it, and if you work in the industry you make sure you make the most ethical decisions when producing content. You strive to make a entertaining product that is fair, a product that people want to play because it's enjoyable, while adhering to all regulatory and social responsible regulations.
VismundCygnus
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As you mention wide abstinence is unrealistic. The first thing that happens when money is introduced to a group of people (or monkeys for that matter) is a) Prostitution and then b) Gambling. In countries like india, where gambling and can be punished by death, people gamble their hats off, just completely underground...
TheresNoDInBonanza
Non-Gambler
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- Australia
There you have it folks- close the thread, nuke the casinos; Itzpjx has worked it out.
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Then stop playing, defenestrate your computer, and go away. The adults are trying to have a conversation here.
How do you see your job in 10 to 20 years time ? As in the technology advancements since the 90’s have been incredible , so how do you see the slots market or type of game in the future ?
Cabinets have gone all glossy and interactive, but must be harder to come up with future innovations in game design.
Have IGT got a slot holodeck in the works ??
Cabinets have gone all glossy and interactive, but must be harder to come up with future innovations in game design.
Have IGT got a slot holodeck in the works ??
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Have you seen the matrix where you plug yourself in?
We are working on doing that - so you can plug yourself in to Cleopatra.... (that sounds wrong actually!)
Where do i see my job - interesting question... i think there will be a lot more 3D / 4D / 5D (whatever the hell that is?!) etc.. a lot more use of some cool tech, and a wider range of products from the simple to the grandiose...
Will people always gamble - yes
Will slot machines always be around - probably...
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- Mar 23, 2017
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- Sweden
In Play & Go's games Royal Masquerade and Pimped, in the bonus round, the player are guaranteed to get a win in each spin in the bonus round. So if I, for example, play only on the middle line and get a bonus round, I'm guaranteed to get a win on that line each bonus round spin. How does this even work? Does the game continuously make an RNG call to Play & Go's server(s) until a win of at least 3 of the same symbols on the middle line occur? You might not have a 100% answer on this, but how would you do it if you were to design a bonus round that works just like the above mentioned games?
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Good question, im guessing there is a seperate RNG pool of wins only, which it randomly selects, but could be wrong and your example of a pick/reject until the first 3 winning symbol is produced is correct
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Regardless of how you did it, you would only ask the server once for an outcome - but if the server is sat there choosing results and throwing them away, that can take too long... my guess is that they have a table of wins for each which they choose from. They could have a table for each line configuration....
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- Ottawa, Ontario
This has to do with American brick and mortar casinos. It probably has been answered already.
Where did this idea of rubbing the screen, tapping bonus symbols and other dumb tactics come from? It doesn’t change the outcome.
Where did this idea of rubbing the screen, tapping bonus symbols and other dumb tactics come from? It doesn’t change the outcome.
- Joined
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- the land of snow and maple syrup
1 ignorance of slot mechanics and assuming you can influence the outcome
2 superstition - same reason you see little old ladies with 70 troll dolls at a bingo parlour
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What dionysus says is basically it - it's superstition mainly. If you ever visit Macau, or anywhere with predominantly Chinese players, they have a whole different level of superstition
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We croupiers sat on shift one day, laughing, snorting, sniggering as this Chinese bloke wandered down to the tables.
Dressed in sandal type shoes which were held together with string, trousers which had long had a relationship breakdown with the chaps ankles and the rats had had a good go at them, tea stained string vest, carrying which looked like a rather large packed lunch in a brown paper bag.
Soon shut us up as the biggest wedge of £50's we'd ever seen made their way out of the bag....
Whilst managers were in the office, the inspector asked "If you so loaded, why don't you get yourself some new clothes instead of gambling?"
"Its my lucky outfit!" he replied
Dressed in sandal type shoes which were held together with string, trousers which had long had a relationship breakdown with the chaps ankles and the rats had had a good go at them, tea stained string vest, carrying which looked like a rather large packed lunch in a brown paper bag.
Soon shut us up as the biggest wedge of £50's we'd ever seen made their way out of the bag....
Whilst managers were in the office, the inspector asked "If you so loaded, why don't you get yourself some new clothes instead of gambling?"
"Its my lucky outfit!" he replied
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@trancemonkey
If slots are expected to only achieve their RTP over millions of spins.
Why do casinos exempt from play the highest RTP games from play with a bonus?
Surely the number of spins, when wagering a bonus, will be in the hundreds or at most, thousands, rather than millions.
Especially when there are CM members who constantly state that a game's RTP isn't that important.
In fact Trada Casino take this one step further, where the RTP directly affects the wager contribution.
Btw, I do understand about the exemption of games with cumulative features.
If slots are expected to only achieve their RTP over millions of spins.
Why do casinos exempt from play the highest RTP games from play with a bonus?
Surely the number of spins, when wagering a bonus, will be in the hundreds or at most, thousands, rather than millions.
Especially when there are CM members who constantly state that a game's RTP isn't that important.
In fact Trada Casino take this one step further, where the RTP directly affects the wager contribution.
Btw, I do understand about the exemption of games with cumulative features.
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The more spins the closer to the theoretical RTP the game will get, even if it might take millions of spins to get within 0.01% of theoretical, after 100k spins it's probably going to be within 0.1%. Then consider that if each player play on average 1000 spins with a bonus and they have just 100 customers using the bonus that's 100k spins. RTP is pretty much the only thing that matters from the casinos point of view. For the individual player variance is more important at least until you get a big hit and have to consider beating the wager.
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Never really understood why 32red had bdba contributing 0%.
The game does nothing 95% of the time, rather than pay out at 95%
The game does nothing 95% of the time, rather than pay out at 95%
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Many of the high RTP games are also very low to low variance so you're much more often going to be closer to the theoretical RTP on those games. The best way to play with deposit bonuses is to play high variance games to score a big win and then finishing the wagering in a low variance high RTP game and the casinos obviously know this. By excluding some of the best wagering games they are limiting their exposure and can offer bonuses to a wider playerbase or more often.
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Because the turnover required on those games is much higher...
If the casino gives you 100% match, for example, and require you to wager it 30x - they are expecting you to roughly end up with zero at the end of that, assuming the average RTP of most games is around 96%...
However, if you play a 97% game, then you are more likely on average to end up with 25% of your bonus left.
A 98% game you'd end up with 50% left.
These figures aren't 100% accurate, and used for example purposes, but it's basically the casinos way of ensuring that on average you can't milk the bonus...
slotmaster
Paleo Meister (means really, really old)
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Trancemonkey where have you been?
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- IOM
Yes, this was exactly the principle I used to beat the 'unbeatable' 1777% bonus at Tropica with its 65xD+B (!) wagering requirement.
Play big spins on a high variance slot (I used Spy Game) to double my bankroll (obviously I needed some luck for that, but with such a massive bonus bankroll, very achievable), and then grind out WR on The Back Nine Hole In Won with its true skill bonus round, I reckon I was able to achieve about a 98.5% RTP on that slot with my (not perfect) play. (Tropica stated that the RTP was 99% with perfect bonus round play, at which point wagering potential is absolutely insane. Note that after I beat the bonus not only did they nuke the bonus terms from orbit, they also changed the slot so that with perfect bonus round play its RTP was 95%.)
If you look at expected wagering from a given bankroll, it goes up MASSIVELY once you start to increase RTP from 95%, to 96%, to 97%, and to 98% - and on a low variance slot like Hole In Won The Back Nine, you're going top get to that RTP pretty comfortably.
You only need to look at what Tropica did to that bonus after I beat it (and in fairness, after they paid me
) to see how they'd got their numbers wrong So as has already been noted, casinos are treating the RTP as being cumulative across all players potentially taking a bonus, not on the few hundred or thousand spins that individual spins each player may make.
The video is on my YouTube channel.
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I am gonna watch that one Chopley. 
And their up to £1777 bonus is now basically worth shit..They destroyed it with those changes...
Now a mission impossible I'd say.
And their up to £1777 bonus is now basically worth shit..They destroyed it with those changes...
Now a mission impossible I'd say.
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- Dún Dealgan
Loved your choice of music Chopley...Brings me back to those days myself...
Great to see how you beat that bonus...
Never played Rival a lot as I do not like their slots, tried them and was like, meh.
But well done and enjoyed that video!
That The Back Nine slot actually does look like some fun.
Great to see how you beat that bonus...
Never played Rival a lot as I do not like their slots, tried them and was like, meh.
But well done and enjoyed that video!
That The Back Nine slot actually does look like some fun.
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- United Kingdom
A 1500x win is more than possible on this game... rare but possible.
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When a slot advertise "win up to 3000x" is that because that's what they have achieved when running simulations, or is it hard coded into the math that thats the "max" win? I won 3100 and something x on Gemix, so I assume it's also approx.
I know some slots have indeed a max win like Jokerpro (which is a big shame), but could in theory all the slots pay more than their advertised max pay, just very unlikely and that is why BTG is advertising no cap on their games as a marketing trick?
I know some slots have indeed a max win like Jokerpro (which is a big shame), but could in theory all the slots pay more than their advertised max pay, just very unlikely and that is why BTG is advertising no cap on their games as a marketing trick?
slotmaster
Paleo Meister (means really, really old)
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Have you played Donuts yet? If so what are your thoughts?
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- Mar 29, 2013
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- United Kingdom
I just can't believe Trance has been around so long, since 2013.
I mean not literally, that would make him 5
Yet this thread has 'only' been knocking about over a year or so!
I could be a very mature 5 year old...
In fact - when i joined originially it was just out of curiosity - and i didn't really come back often at all. But i saw how the board had progressed when i finally came back, and figured if i could help a little in people understanding we aren't just a big rigging machine, then why not
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- United Kingdom
I've played Donuts for two session with real money - the first session i got a 65x multiplier on my second feature, and won 455x. The first feature was an 8x multiplier and paid 14x.
However, even with that big win, i still don't like the game. I find the base game annoying - they've had to totally devalue all the wins (i.e no 3 of a kind low value wins) in order to allow for the massive multipliers. It seems they have sacrificed a lot in order to shoehorn in the Free Games potential.
I think BTG have done some brilliant games - and are one of the few companies that have moved game design forwards in the last few years with something relatively unique. Bonanza is almost the perfect game. Some of the others they have tried have failed to hit the mark, but that's the same with every games provider, no matter how big / small they are. Not everything will be a massive hit.
So, in short, do i think Donuts is a good game. No i don't. I would be surprised if it's doing 10% of what Bonanza does.... However, that won't stop me looking forward to what BTG does next. I hope they can find another Bonanza... i think they will
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- London, UK
Hey @trancemonkey
In games like NetEnt's Lucky Angler - games where you can have sticky wilds in the base game but you DO pay for the next spins where the wilds stick in place - how does this work exactly? Is there a higher chance of winning on these spins, and is it a seperate RNG than if the wild's weren't there? Hope you understand what I'm asking lol - basically how do the mechanics of it work
Thanks
In games like NetEnt's Lucky Angler - games where you can have sticky wilds in the base game but you DO pay for the next spins where the wilds stick in place - how does this work exactly? Is there a higher chance of winning on these spins, and is it a seperate RNG than if the wild's weren't there? Hope you understand what I'm asking lol - basically how do the mechanics of it work
Thanks
TheresNoDInBonanza
Non-Gambler
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- Apr 2, 2018
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- Australia
The better example of this would be wish master. Or even eggomatic. Where you need to pay to secure potential wins.
Lucky Angler is a prime example of 'Oh s**t' if you attain the holy grail of wilds on reels 2 & 4, in the middle, yet no money to carry on spinning 
Yet when in full flow it can go on for 15+ spins, racking up stupendous wins. I'd imagine a fair segment of the RTP is included in that scenario alone, which usurps 90% of its bonus output
Yet when in full flow it can go on for 15+ spins, racking up stupendous wins. I'd imagine a fair segment of the RTP is included in that scenario alone, which usurps 90% of its bonus output
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- May 13, 2014
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- Wolverhampton
How about when they used to given out FS on Netent's "The Wish Master" or "Egg O" games as mentioned by TheresnoD
Many a time had scrolls with spins to go or good eggs on the conveyor and the free spins would end, click to acknowledge the "use account money" message and hey presto they disappear, never to be seen again
Many a time had scrolls with spins to go or good eggs on the conveyor and the free spins would end, click to acknowledge the "use account money" message and hey presto they disappear, never to be seen again
UnluckyHow about when they used to given out FS on Netent's "The Wish Master" or "Egg O" games as mentioned by TheresnoD
Many a time had scrolls with spins to go or good eggs on the conveyor and the free spins would end, click to acknowledge the "use account money" message and hey presto they disappear, never to be seen again
One could almost think, no I.....I don't want to say............one could almost think the games play out dependent on your balance!!
DOA is a prime offender, the scatters all come out to play when down to less than £2
At least with Arcade machines they'd give you a 'Continue?' with a countdown timer. I think slots need that too
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- Mar 29, 2013
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- United Kingdom
So games like this will normally still use the same maths on spins where wilds stick... when doing maths, we take the game rules in to account, and we simulate an enormous amount of games to make sure the RTP is correct. So on a spin when Wilds stick, it is likely (i know i would do this anyway) that on the next spin, the reel positions are chosen in the same way as any other spin - it just so happens that some symbols will be overlaid with wilds. This is all factored in to the maths - and yes, you can always end up in a game with persistence where you run out of money, but you kinda want to carry on.... But the same could be said for a game without persistence where you just haven't had free games for 300 spins, and you feel it's due
And @goatwack - don't even go there
And @goatwack - don't even go there
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- Joined
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Would still like an answer to this questions @trancemonkey if you can
Apologies.. I missed this.
Either it's a theoretical maximum done via simulations or it's a calculated maximum win.
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So what is really the difference between the two? Calculated max win you would use your maths to calculate how much a max win would be? But say in games where you can retrigger, if there is no max retrigger (some limit to say 60 freespins, some don't) how could you calculate the max win then? Or is that where you would do simulations instead?
And in the case of simulations, would it be possible to gain a result outside of those simulations, just very very very unlikely?
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Donuts are very bad for your health, so is this slot.
But I actually start to like it, no massive wins yet but I see and feel the potential.
I enjoy this slot more than Bonanza which is for me one of the worst slots ever designed.
Sorry for being off topic there for a second Trance.
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- Mar 29, 2013
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- United Kingdom
Donuts are very bad for your health, so is this slot.
But I actually start to like it, no massive wins yet but I see and feel the potential.
I enjoy this slot more than Bonanza which is for me one of the worst slots ever designed.
Sorry for being off topic there for a second Trance.
You're quite welcome, Lotusch me ol' flower
Donuts i dislike, Bonanza i hated - but it's grown on me. It's a great package even though it can rip your arms off and shove them where the sun don't shine quite easily...
I actually prefer the layout of Extra Chili, although i hate the buy a bonus + gamble.. it's just a one way ticket to gambling addiction and massive losses.
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- Mar 29, 2013
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- United Kingdom
The difference is just dependent on whether a slot can be calculated or not... modern games are more complex, and therefore a lot more require simulations than would have previously been the case.
When we do simulations, we tend to do huge numbers. I can't say for certain how many games manufacturers do - but i would hope it's over 1bn games at least.
It is of course theoretically possible that not every single win is caught in this 1bn game run, and that someone would get a win bigger than the simulated maximum, but it wouldn't affect the RTP because it would be so rare as to be totally insignificant... the only thing it might do is mean a casino has a bigger liability than they thought, but after 1bn games, confidence would be very high that you have pretty much got the maximum liability worked out.
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- Uk
You may see and feel the potential but it’s highly unlikely it will come to fruition in the near future. I have played it myself a couple of of times and have no desire to play it again. The base game is so bad, you are basically trawling through hundreds of spins in the hope you hit a decent bonus. After all said and done for me love it or hate it bonanza is probably the game of the decade and does produce some big base hits.Donuts are very bad for your health, so is this slot.
But I actually start to like it, no massive wins yet but I see and feel the potential.
I enjoy this slot more than Bonanza which is for me one of the worst slots ever designed.
Sorry for being off topic there for a second Trance.
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