Ask me anything (about slots)!

[trancemonkey]

Also, say a low roller has an average bet size of 40p but then decides to try their luck at £2 spins. If that low roller hits something massive on the higher stake, casinos must surely realise there's less chance of the low roller playing that money back than if the same xstake was hit on the lower bet.

That's just one example of where it'd be in the casino's interest to have some control over stuff like that.

Casinos (legit ones) want, and need, people to hit big wins. It is what keeps people coming back for more...

Big wins are, in most cases, just short term loans...

 

[Reelsoffun]

Big wins are, in most cases, just short term loans...

With interest rates that would even make the payday loans APR look good lol

 

[mack341]

Not how the games work. While different reel sets can (and are) used, it would be random as to which one was in effect (or based on features of the game). Games don't 'choose' to give you the 'small win' reel set and then 'choose' to give you the big win one. They could, randomly each spin, select one of the two though (if that was a feature of that game). Not really a lot of point though as a well balanced reel set will give you small and big wins in just the right proportion anyway, without the need to change.

I think I did read it somewhere in this thread that a game could adjust itself according to stake, eg. the weighting of the reels to change the variance, as long as the stated rtp was still accurate and results were random. It might not be common but it would be legal and permissible.

 

[The Reel Story]

I think I did read it somewhere in this thread that a game could adjust itself according to stake, eg. the weighting of the reels to change the variance, as long as the stated rtp was still accurate and results were random. It might not be common but it would be legal and permissible.

For an online slot, I don't believe that is legal. I'm not sure about land based. I know that higher denomination machines do tend to have better RTP's. I don't know if a machine where you can select your denomination will change the RTP or not.

 

[mack341]

For an online slot, I don't believe that is legal. I'm not sure about land based. I know that higher denomination machines do tend to have better RTP's. I don't know if a machine where you can select your denomination will change the RTP or not.

No I wasn't saying the rtp would change and become better or worse due to changing your stake but the variance could change and the same rtp could be distributed differently by weighting of symbols [different reel sets]

 

[The Reel Story]

No I wasn't saying the rtp would change and become better or worse due to changing your stake but the variance could change and the same rtp could be distributed differently.

Ahh, I see what you mean. Hmm, even so, I don't believe that would be legal. Not 100% as it's been a while out of the industry for me. @trancemonkey will know.

The reelsets changing during play is fine as long as it's totally random and the overall RTP is reported, but pretty sure anything done on a per stake basis is not allowed.

 

[brianmon]

Ahh, I see what you mean. Hmm, even so, I don't believe that would be legal. Not 100% as it's been a while out of the industry for me. @trancemonkey will know.

The reelsets changing during play is fine as long as it's totally random and the overall RTP is reported, but pretty sure anything done on a per stake basis is not allowed.

IIRC, it was Trancemonkey who said it

 

[mack341]

Ahh, I see what you mean. Hmm, even so, I don't believe that would be legal. Not 100% as it's been a while out of the industry for me. @trancemonkey will know.

The reelsets changing during play is fine as long as it's totally random and the overall RTP is reported, but pretty sure anything done on a per stake basis is not allowed.

But why wouldn't it be allowed if the player betting £4 is getting the same rtp as the one betting 20p? I thought the testing houses were just tasked with making sure the rtp was accurate across the different stakes, and didn't payout proportionately more to one stake than another.

 

[mack341]

not to change the subject but I wonder how do they test the rtp for a game like dream catcher/ monopoly live?

 

[trancemonkey]

For an online slot, I don't believe that is legal. I'm not sure about land based. I know that higher denomination machines do tend to have better RTP's. I don't know if a machine where you can select your denomination will change the RTP or not.

Yes, machines can and do have non-linear RTPs. It is also "legal" online but the UKGC dont like it.

 

[The Reel Story]

not to change the subject but I wonder how do they test the rtp for a game like dream catcher/ monopoly live?

Same way for any other game. Simulate it and do the maths. The wheel is essentially an RNG. So you would need the wheel to be accredited as random, but you can simulate the RTP of the game by using a computer based RNG.

Also true of Roulette, Blackjack etc. Any table game where a physical device acts as your RNG.

 

[The Reel Story]

Yes, machines can and do have non-linear RTPs. It is also "legal" online but the UKGC dont like it.

Thanks for the clarification, that's interesting. You'd think if they didn't like it they'd just make it illegal haha.

 

[mack341]

Same way for any other game. Simulate it and do the maths. The wheel is essentially an RNG. So you would need the wheel to be accredited as random, but you can simulate the RTP of the game by using a computer based RNG.

Also true of Roulette, Blackjack etc. Any table game where a physical device acts as your RNG.

ah right I thought they might need to use a 'computer model' otherwise some poor bugger would have to spin that wheel millions of times

That was something I never understood about the national lottery, the need for all the different machines, merlin and lancelot etc.., I suppose it was done to increase the 'randomness' of a physical process

 

[Bloatgoat]

that the Casino could set, so they could limit their exposure game by game.

Thank you for debunking, that online slots are random.

 

[The Reel Story]

Thank you for debunking, that online slots are random.

I'm not sure how an upper limit on the max win effects how random the game is?

 

[slotmaster]

Casinos (legit ones) want, and need, people to hit big wins. It is what keeps people coming back for more...

Big wins are, in most cases, just short term loans...

The last couple or few trips each time I have talked to someone who hit big last time and they were there again trying to do the same. One guy was there every time we went.

 

[Bloatgoat]

I'm not sure how an upper limit on the max win effects how random the game is?

If the game itself was properly designed, it should never exceed a certain or 'impossible' win right? The fact that they do have checkbacks to limit a certain payback takes the statement of a game being random, not being random. Because in a way it's random yes, but always within parameters. It's like having a box, in this box anything can happen. But it cant escape the box and do some crazy stuff, if the game was properly designed.

You see i always found myself in a hard session limit in Online casino's. The bigger brands seem to have a higher ceiling, the smaller ones a 'lower' ceiling related to what you could win for the day. This one particular casino always has a 3k threshold on avg, sets me back down to 2500, gives me a great big win to 3100 or so, and boots me back down. It usually repeats itself 3 times before going down the 'hard way' where nothing just works.

It is to my understanding that online play is kind of a farce. Yes in a way you can win. But it's in a controlled enviroment actually. It reminds me of my winning days in local casino's, hitting like 6 handpays in barely 3 hours. When the floormanager to come take a look at what i was doing (and how) the fun was over after a while. The big wins where now more even distributed to i.e 2 to 3x big wins rather then one big on itself. I understand that the fun needs to be just as fun for the next guest, but casino's DO have control over the slots they license.

Gambling is over. It's kind of waiting untill the new hype with some new brand and streamers making million of wins with a dozen of OMFG-faces spreaded all over youtube, and the cycle repeats itself.

 

[The Reel Story]

Ok, there's a chunk to unpack here so i'll do it piece by piece.

If the game itself was properly designed, it should never exceed a certain or 'impossible' win right? The fact that they do have checkbacks to limit a certain payback takes the statement of a game being random, not being random. Because in a way it's random yes, but always within parameters. It's like having a box, in this box anything can happen. But it cant escape the box and do some crazy stuff, if the game was properly designed.

Not true. A properly designed game can still, in theory, retrigger infinite times, it's just the odds of it doing so are infinitesimally small. In fact, any game that allows retriggers within free spins can, potentially, keep doing that. The max winning limits that Casino's impose are caps. They don't impact the maths of the game at all, they just reduce the final payout. So if the max win was set to £1000 and you won £2000 in free spins, you would only actually get £1000 out the end of it. Technically the game still paid £2000, it's just the Casino caps the win. The max win cap couldn't modify the maths of the game.

In reality, these limits were always very high (normally £100,000 minimum) and were just in place to stop ridiculousness happening. It was also an optional limit. Some Casino's actually chose not to use it, instead limiting using the maximum stake. There was still that infinitesimally small possibility of a crazy win, but they were ok with that (bigger Casino's can take more risk). Additionally, for our platform at least, we would specify that games would have to handle these limits gracefully. So if the max win was set to £100,000, a game would never display more than that value to a player. It would also inform the player they had hit the max winning cap and it would stop any free spins at that point as well. The idea being that you never wanted to tell a player they had won more than £100,000 and then reduce it afterwards, because that is galling and terrible PR. We had stringent test cases around these things to ensure the player experience was always the best it could be.

You see i always found myself in a hard session limit in Online casino's. The bigger brands seem to have a higher ceiling, the smaller ones a 'lower' ceiling related to what you could win for the day. This one particular casino always has a 3k threshold on avg, sets me back down to 2500, gives me a great big win to 3100 or so, and boots me back down. It usually repeats itself 3 times before going down the 'hard way' where nothing just works.

I mean, that isn't a thing. Casino's simply do not have that kind of control.

It is to my understanding that online play is kind of a farce. Yes in a way you can win. But it's in a controlled enviroment actually. It reminds me of my winning days in local casino's, hitting like 6 handpays in barely 3 hours. When the floormanager to come take a look at what i was doing (and how) the fun was over after a while. The big wins where now more even distributed to i.e 2 to 3x big wins rather then one big on itself. I understand that the fun needs to be just as fun for the next guest, but casino's DO have control over the slots they license.

They really don't have control outside of the following variables that were configurable (this will be largely standard)

• Minimum Stake
• Maximum Stake
• Maximum Win (cap)
• Possible Stake Denominations

The only control the have over the maths of the game is to ask the Slot provider for a different version with a different RTP. And the slot provider will normally only make one or two versions of the maths at most. You can't just go into an admin console and type '80%' and have the game start paying that. To do that, the game would have to dynamically recalculate it's reelsets, bonus rounds, symbol values etc etc which is pretty much impossible to do. Remember, RTP is derived, not set.

Same is true for land based. If they want to change the RTP of a game in a Casino, they have to physically open up the machine and change the chip. This will start to progress to centrally served games (so the terminals act more like online slots) but the same thing applies. The RTP will be what the slot provider has provided. It can't just be changed willy nilly.

If you haven't already seen it, watch my video here.

Gambling is over. It's kind of waiting untill the new hype with some new brand and streamers making million of wins with a dozen of OMFG-faces spreaded all over youtube, and the cycle repeats itself.

Streamers don't get any advantage over anyone else, apart from the Casino will give them better bonuses (100% match on ever deposit etc). Some Casino's will give a streamer a pre-loaded account (without the ability to Withdraw), so effectively playing with demo money but made to look real. Some streamers use this and fake it, but most do not (and post reports of their deposits etc to prove it). Also, most streamers are at a loss from gambling. They make their money from affiliation and advertising.

It would actually be technically incredibly difficult to pick out an individual player for preferential spins on a slot.

Now I know you won't believe me on any of this, but it is what it is and this is the way it works. Casino's don't need to cheat, they make plenty of money legally by letting the maths do the work. That's the biggest flaw in the whole 'Gambling is rigged' conspiracy, it's literally pointless and more difficult for a Casino to do so.

 

[The Reel Story]

ah right I thought they might need to use a 'computer model' otherwise some poor bugger would have to spin that wheel millions of times

That was something I never understood about the national lottery, the need for all the different machines, merlin and lancelot etc.., I suppose it was done to increase the 'randomness' of a physical process

I think the whole multiple machine thing was to put the possibility of fraud beyond doubt. Lotteries are SO public and SO widely played, that they have to go to ridiculous lengths to ensure that fraud is impossible. Multiple machines, multiple sets of balls, independent auditors on every spin (a friend of mine actually did this. He was stood next to the machine on TV inspecting everything haha) just ensure that everything is beyond reproach.

Even the hint of the possibility that a Lottery outcome had been influenced would destroy that lottery for good, so they go full on overboard

 

[trancemonkey]

Ok, there's a chunk to unpack here so i'll do it piece by piece.



Not true. A properly designed game can still, in theory, retrigger infinite times, it's just the odds of it doing so are infinitesimally small. In fact, any game that allows retriggers within free spins can, potentially, keep doing that. The max winning limits that Casino's impose are caps. They don't impact the maths of the game at all, they just reduce the final payout. So if the max win was set to £1000 and you won £2000 in free spins, you would only actually get £1000 out the end of it. Technically the game still paid £2000, it's just the Casino caps the win. The max win cap couldn't modify the maths of the game.

In reality, these limits were always very high (normally £100,000 minimum) and were just in place to stop ridiculousness happening. It was also an optional limit. Some Casino's actually chose not to use it, instead limiting using the maximum stake. There was still that infinitesimally small possibility of a crazy win, but they were ok with that (bigger Casino's can take more risk). Additionally, for our platform at least, we would specify that games would have to handle these limits gracefully. So if the max win was set to £100,000, a game would never display more than that value to a player. It would also inform the player they had hit the max winning cap and it would stop any free spins at that point as well. The idea being that you never wanted to tell a player they had won more than £100,000 and then reduce it afterwards, because that is galling and terrible PR. We had stringent test cases around these things to ensure the player experience was always the best it could be.



I mean, that isn't a thing. Casino's simply do not have that kind of control.



They really don't have control outside of the following variables that were configurable (this will be largely standard)

• Minimum Stake
• Maximum Stake
• Maximum Win (cap)
• Possible Stake Denominations

The only control the have over the maths of the game is to ask the Slot provider for a different version with a different RTP. And the slot provider will normally only make one or two versions of the maths at most. You can't just go into an admin console and type '80%' and have the game start paying that. To do that, the game would have to dynamically recalculate it's reelsets, bonus rounds, symbol values etc etc which is pretty much impossible to do. Remember, RTP is derived, not set.

Same is true for land based. If they want to change the RTP of a game in a Casino, they have to physically open up the machine and change the chip. This will start to progress to centrally served games (so the terminals act more like online slots) but the same thing applies. The RTP will be what the slot provider has provided. It can't just be changed willy nilly.

If you haven't already seen it, watch my video here.





Streamers don't get any advantage over anyone else, apart from the Casino will give them better bonuses (100% match on ever deposit etc). Some Casino's will give a streamer a pre-loaded account (without the ability to Withdraw), so effectively playing with demo money but made to look real. Some streamers use this and fake it, but most do not (and post reports of their deposits etc to prove it). Also, most streamers are at a loss from gambling. They make their money from affiliation and advertising.

It would actually be technically incredibly difficult to pick out an individual player for preferential spins on a slot.

Now I know you won't believe me on any of this, but it is what it is and this is the way it works. Casino's don't need to cheat, they make plenty of money legally by letting the maths do the work. That's the biggest flaw in the whole 'Gambling is rigged' conspiracy, it's literally pointless and more difficult for a Casino to do so.

You really do sound like me... welcome to the "we dont believe whatever you say" side of the fence

 

[The Reel Story]

You really do sound like me... welcome to the "we dont believe whatever you say" side of the fence

Haha, that's because we're on the same page and have first hand experience of this stuff

I'm sure i'll still sleep soundly even if someone doesn't believe me

 

[Masquerade67]

When designing your slots, how much psychology do you share with the casinos that use your products ? You must have to write games that are attractive to play and they must have all the stats on what players spend, what games they play prior to playing your slots and what they do afterwards.

From your perspective, how good are you collectively at giving us a good time or changing the bag on the Dyson ??

 

[The Reel Story]

When designing your slots, how much psychology do you share with the casinos that use your products ? You must have to write games that are attractive to play and they must have all the stats on what players spend, what games they play prior to playing your slots and what they do afterwards.

From your perspective, how good are you collectively at giving us a good time or changing the bag on the Dyson ??

There are a few different angles here.

It very much depends on the Casino and the provider. Some Casino's had very hard requirements about how game were implemented and the features they contained. They would be strict about spin times, autoplay functionality, stake selections, loading times etc etc. Others would be very lax and didn't care much beyond wanting the latest content from the providers.

Same on the provider side. Some produced garbage and just went for volume, others produced quality at a slower rate. The best providers understood the psychology behind the design and the maths model and that is why their content stood out. They wouldn't generally share that info with the Casino though, as they didn't need to. The Casino would be able to see the performance of providers games and high quality stuff performs well, and so they want more of it. At that point, they just trust the provider.

Certainly performance statistics on games were taken and measured. Behavioural statistics, like what was played before and after etc. That kind of stuff depends on the Casino. The biggest and best will understand this stuff and position games, website widgets, adverts etc to maximise impact and engagement. Smaller ones who can't afford this analysis (or just don't focus on it) obviously won't do it

 

[Masquerade67]

Thanks for the response ReelStory. I guess that the sheer number of casino-customers of the gaming companies and the differing layouts of their websites and B&M outfits make drawing patterns different in your slot designs - not to mention local legislation that may be in effect. To draw an analogy with other retail sectors, if you make a good product, then they'll (the casinos) come back for more ??? Is this why all you designers seem to be slot-players as well..... you're doing market research for that next killer game ?

 

[The Reel Story]

I'm not actually a slot designer. I used to run a business unit that provided a gaming platform. So slot providers would do the graphics and the maths, we would do the back end and the integration with the Casinos, then the slot provider would integrate their front end to our back end.

So I've worked with many many different providers, but never made a slot. That said, i can't imagine being able to make a good slot without playing them