Affiliate Union

[Pinababy69]

But and this is extremely important, we also need the players on our side to achieve this. Creating a union headed up by affiliates who promote places like cool cat and other virtual clip joints, is not going to get any credibility or support from the player community.

Speaking as a player Webz, thank you for stating this. I would be more than willing to throw my full support behind any organization that not only factors player issues into the equation, but one that actually puts player concerns and issues at the forefront.

Honestly, I was excited when I read about this venture...until I got to Gamtrak's name, and then read about her having a media buy with Gambling Wages. No way in hell would I ever support any organization whose founding members accept money from a company who have built their business on years of ripping off players.

The concept is something that I have held as the "ideal" for many years now...a group of people donating their time, completely free of charge, and not making a penny in sponsorship fees, commissions, etc. Needless to say I was always hoping I would see it done in the player sector, but I thought this would be a great start. Especially if the AU were willing to listen to players, and give some weight to player experiences in relation to what constitututes a good affiliate program. What does it matter how good an affy program is...if the casino(s) that program represents make their money by ripping off players?

As has been mentioned before, we could debate all day on what constitutes a rogue casino..but when it comes to Virtual, I think all debate is pointless. They are the "standard" for rogue, and NO webmaster/affiliate who wants to be seen as ethical, should be promoting them.

I really think for something like this to be successful, you need to have at least part of the player community behind you, as Webz stated. The mess with Grand Prive beginning of this year, really showed me just how far apart the player and affiliate communities are in their thinking. Let me state right from the start, that I completely sympathize with the affiliates. I believe they were the victims of the old FU type clause, that has been used on players for years. I think what GP did to them is shameful. However, all that being said....where were all these affiliates when GP were pulling some of their shady shit on players MUCH prior to the closure of their affy accounts? Bryan rogued them back in 2006...but I don't remember seeing another high profile webmaster doing the same. Webz, Simmo..correct me if I'm wrong, because I very well could be. Point is though, they are now universally condemned for what they did to the affiliates (and correctly so)...but where is this outrage and solidarity when players get screwed over?

How can someone in one breath condemn GP, and call for their heads on a platter...and at the same time, have a huge flashing banner for Cirrus Casino on their homepage? How can you in one breath ask players to support them by not playing at a place such as GP, while at the same time, setting them up to be fleeced at the biggest criminal joint on the web? It is hypocrisy at its finest, and I will NEVER be on board with that. So, until both players and affiliates start working together for the common good, and making their goal the betterment of the industry in general, I don't see anything changing anytime soon. If affiliates want player support for their cause, then they had better start putting the players concerns and issues at the top of the list when it comes to making a list of criteria, of what makes a reputable casino/affiliate program.

 

[AussieDave]

Hi All,

Firstly I've handed in my private membership at the GPWA.

In so far as the AU from the time I was offered the AU position I have worked tirelessly to get this established, so too have the founding members.

In fact a little into a week of commencing I was taken to hospital by ambulance as a result of a herniated disk in my back which has left my right leg and foot numb.

I'm not a marta but people needs to understand that even with this happen I was working up to 20 hours a day trying to get the AU operational.

Hence when people start taking crack shots at not only my integrity but that of mojo, Chalkie and Greek39 and also at our motivation to start the AU, I come out shooting with both barrels.

If I'd or the founders had known about GamTrak promoting Virtual Casino Group she would definitely not have been a founding member, period.

However that choice was not mine. I was given a list of people who should be founding members by APCW Anthony, one of them was GamTrak.

At the time I held Anthony in high esteem. There was no reason for me to doubt any of the founding members given to me by Anthony.

The entire premise behind the AU being commenced came from APCW Anthony who claimed that JTodd was party to this also.

I've got it in email...

I wont regurgitate my novel like post at the GPWA but after having to wear a bucket load of crap from people who don't know that facts, and with neither Anthony, JTodd or anyone having the balls to stand up and tell it like it was, I chose to air the sordid details in public as the GPWA.

I'm sure I've pissed a few people off but people wanted to facts. As they don't wish for something to hard because you just might get it.

However my motivation to post to the GPWA was because people needed to know the facts about how the AU commenced. That did and was playing on my conscience ever since I realised that things didn't ge on the 6'th September 2009 (the facebook emails).

Frankly I'd be had, played for a stooge and the AU was set-up to fail from the beginning. For all I know GamTrak was (unbeknown to her) the AU Trojan Horse.

Reiterating it was a directive from APCW Anthony to make GamTrak a founding AU member.

Although the PM's that took place between Anthony and I at the GPWA were deleted, I'll add on Anthony's request, the emails and other PM's show the extent to which this fiasco played out.

At this point I have hard copies of all other PM's and emails.

In so far as returning to the GPWA to post this info or having anything to with the organisation that wont be happening.

Have a while back I started Link Removed ( Old/Invalid)

I had every intention back then to commence writing about all the dodgy events that have taken place in the online casino industry since I've been around. But due to other commitment that got placed on the back burner.

So if any is interested or wants to read the facts all these will posted to that URL in the near future.

Cheers

Dave


PS Now I have made this post can you please delete my membership here as well thank you.

 

[Pinababy69]

PS Now I have made this post can you please delete my membership here as well thank you.

Dave, why in the world would you want to leave here? I hope you didn't misunderstand anything I wrote personally...because NONE of it was directed at you. I have zero problem with you as an affiliate, and commend you for even wanting to partake of such a venture. If it had been just you and Mojo, I would have no qualms at all about backing it 110%. And that's not a slight against Greek and Chalkie at all...I just don't know them. My problem was with Gamtrak, and as you've explained how it came to be that she be listed as a founding member, I have no problem with that at all.

I don't know the story with the GPWA and the APCW. I used to have alot of respect for JTodd and the work he did....probably still do a little bit. But he really lost me back when they did that "travel to CostaRica" thing with Gambling Wages. Their intentions may have been in the right place, but Virtual have had more than enough chances to clean up and fly straight. Now I want nothing more than to see them gone from the internet forever.

As to the GPWA, absolutely no clue really what they're all about. Yes, I read there..but that's about as far as it goes. It wouldn't really be fair for me to comment on Michael Corfman, or anyone who works there. Beyond saying, sponsor, paid program..whatever...they also list Gambling Wages on their site, which means they collect some kind of revenue from them. That in itself is enough to not give them much credibility (for me I mean). Beyond that, maybe they're great people and not as ethically challenged as some others...no idea.

But I do know you.....and don't understand why you would want to leave here? We can't keep losing the good people in this industry...and from this forum. First Rusty, now you? Please reconsider.

 

[AussieDave]

Hi Pina,

I'm sincerely touched that you hold me in such high esteem , thank you.

Right now I feel I've been used.
In addition my integrity has been brought into disrupt with the AU being touted by some that it was all connected back to money from day one. That self absorbed interests on part of the founders and myself was the motivation behind it.

I honestly don't know who to trust after this entire AU fiasco has ended.



Cheers

Dave

 

[Pinababy69]

I honestly don't know who to trust after this entire AU fiasco has ended.

Now that sentiment I can totally relate to, with some exceptions. In any event, don't close your account here right away. This is still a great forum for you to keep up to date with player issues, which is important even if you want to pursue the other site you mentioned.

At least give it a few days, and a bit of thought...then make a decision. And if you decide to attempt something like this again, let me know. Or if you'd ever like any feedback from a player perspective on the other site, I have a ton of opinions on everything.

Thanks for trying. It can be done, I know it can. It is just going to take the "right" kind of people behind it.

 

[lots0]

Dave,

I don't know all the details.

but I do support the idea of the AU.

The problem is... as you know, there are some really bad people in this business. Some of the really bad people are well known in the forums and pretend to be 'honest and ethical' in public. Some even have 'good' public reputations.

The problem as I see it is the GPWA and CAP. Both of these entities attract the worst of the worst in affiliates, both are the worst places to recruit ethical affs. Not to mention that from the sounds of it the AU would be a direct competitor to gpwa, apcw, CAP and others. So there are many folks that have a direct financial interest who are ready, willing and able to torpedo anything like the AU without mercy.

Dave I would only ask two things of you...
1. Please remember that anything worthwhile is never easy...

2. Please don't give up the good fight.

 

[greek39]

Thanks lots0 I will be parking my chair here from now on if its okay. I find the meister board, in particular Bryan a no BS type fellow.

I too hope Dave changes his mind.

thanks

greek39

 

[JHV]

Write. Please. Often.

 

[chalkie]

Dave, i am sorry that this is how the story as ended, i have not fallen out with you, i will not be a thorn in your side or show any animosity towards you.

I do wish that we could speak about the events of the last few days, however, understand if you do not wish to do so.

I hope you have no issues with myself and Paula continuing with the union.

With regards to the questions about the union supporting players, well, as it is an affiliates union we cannot do so as such.

We will, however, be making sure that players safety, rights and protection are considered as important a fact as anything else.

For that reason, i would hope that we could be seen in a good light by players.

 

[lots0]

Thanks lots0 I will be parking my chair here from now on if its okay. I find the meister board, in particular Bryan a no BS type fellow.

I too hope Dave changes his mind.

thanks

greek39

It's better than OK...

 

[WagerWitch]

I hope that this does start - and would love to support it.

I'm one of those folks that plops some casinos on the site - without knowing a couple of their backgrounds - but usually as soon as I find out - I try to NEVER support or bring them up again.

I try to be honest and fair - but Ive noticed that a couple of the casinos show downloads - but no real players depositing... HMMMMM... - which to be honest with the traffic I'm giving them - I highly doubt real players would bother to sign up and then not deposit AFTER downloading - yanno?


I'm not entirely sure I'm trusting some of the info I'm getting back on reports.

Be it that it may - I still don't make very much money in this business - and I rank HIGH in Google for MANY keywords and I get a lot of hits and people coming in.

So - I dunno how other affiliates are doing - and I'm not sure which guys are bad or good - it would be nice to have a NON-AFFILIATED union to be able to guide us through the good guys and the bad guys - doing not for the bucks - but because it is right.

And as a player - it's good to see someone who only places those that are trustworthy on their sites.

It's a win win for affiliates - and a bonus for players.

 

[zebedy]

I hope that this does start - and would love to support it.

I'm one of those folks that plops some casinos on the site - without knowing a couple of their backgrounds - but usually as soon as I find out - I try to NEVER support or bring them up again.

I try to be honest and fair - but Ive noticed that a couple of the casinos show downloads - but no real players depositing... HMMMMM... - which to be honest with the traffic I'm giving them - I highly doubt real players would bother to sign up and then not deposit AFTER downloading - yanno?


I'm not entirely sure I'm trusting some of the info I'm getting back on reports.

Be it that it may - I still don't make very much money in this business - and I rank HIGH in Google for MANY keywords and I get a lot of hits and people coming in.

So - I dunno how other affiliates are doing - and I'm not sure which guys are bad or good - it would be nice to have a NON-AFFILIATED union to be able to guide us through the good guys and the bad guys - doing not for the bucks - but because it is right.

And as a player - it's good to see someone who only places those that are trustworthy on their sites.

It's a win win for affiliates - and a bonus for players.

sometimes a player doesnt have the software on there pc anymore so they download from your site even if they didnt sign up through your link,

IMO the only way for something like this to work without people thinking there isnt a hidden agenda is if all the people running it were non affiliates and had nothing to do with the online gaming scene in any way , otherwise you will always get the doubters

 

[Antonia1953]

I suggest before forming a band of founders, that you examine their websites and perform an anal-like analysis of their ethical history...so to speak.

 

[JHV]

I suggest before forming a band of founders, that you examine their websites and perform an anal-like analysis of their ethical history...so to speak.

Yeah, I'm getting flashbacks to the post-Palin VP nomination - skeleton after skeleton just pouring out of her closet in almost comical fashion.

I mean, hell, we ALL make mistakes. God knows I've made a few (x100/0). But 'discovering' one of your founding members is an affiliate promoting Cirrus POST-announcement of impending launch....this ranks right up there in the All-Time Facepalm Competition.

 

[bb28]

When I saw the list of the founding members, I was very shocked to see GamTrak on there. I assumed it was common knowledge that she had no qualms about promoting rogue casino's and she has publically defended such. See here.

Seems someone forgot to do the very basic's, which just floored me for such a large undertaking.

I do hope you can get past your rocky start and I hope the organization is successful.

 

[JHV]

Is it a valid question for me to ask why GamTrak isn't permanently banned from CM?

I just clicked 2 links and I was staring at her flashing Cirrus and Cool Cat banners on her site.

:vomit

 

[jod5413]

BB28, Is this the post by Gamtrak you were refering to?

Not a problem, I just had to give my view of what happened.

Personally, I feel that the player is responsible for knowing T&C's of the sites where they spend thier money as the casino and affiliates are. As an igaming affiliate since 2001 I've never had a legitimate claim against your brands so I'm all for seeing that you guys do what you can to repair the damage of the past because players do continue to deposit and play each month.

I've taken a lot of flack for promoting your brands, but I don't waste time worrying about such things as long as my players don't have a problem with your brands and I get paid on time, then I don't have a problem with you.

 

[swampwitch]

Is it a valid question for me to ask why GamTrak isn't permanently banned from CM?

I just clicked 2 links and I was staring at her flashing Cirrus and Cool Cat banners on her site.

:vomit

I get the sentiment, but Gamtrak is NOT the only webmaster member here that promotes known rogues. And does CM even have a policy on what webmaster members can or cannot promote?

 

[bb28]

Yes Jod5413, that's the one. You did a better job pointing it out than I did. :notworthy

I have a big problem with it as I'm sure a lot of other people here do. IMO she can't just shrug off the responsiblity by saying that her players don't have a problem. I'd bet that a lot of her players don't have a clue what to do or how to contact her if they did.

 

[bb28]

In reponse to Swampwitch (which I forgot to quote) duh

I don't know of any criteria that CM has now, but I made a suggestion in the sig thread that maybe CM might look into starting a section for accreditated webmasters that they would have to meet certain criteria and of course one of those would be NOT be promoting scum such as that.

 

[swampwitch]

To be fair, Gamtrak has stated that when her media buy thingy with GW is up she won't be promoting them anymore.
Just putting that out there....

 

[unicorn40]

To be fair, Gamtrak has stated that when her media buy thingy with GW is up she won't be promoting them anymore.
Just putting that out there....

Yes, Gamtrak did say that she was "willing to remove any and all properties that need to be removed" as soon as the contracts are up...To myself though, that can mean something totally dif. because of the wording...Thats happened a lot and ppl. who know how to use words and twist them a bit do so....

 

[WagerWitch]

Hell - I don't even know if I had rouges on my site any more - I didn't have the energy after the chemo to go through all of them...

SO IF ANYONE sees a rouge on my site - let me know.

 

[AussieDave]

Hi all,

I'm not going the lay the boots into GamTrak.
She has been around long enough to know that both gamblingwages and Virtual Casino Group are at best doggy. At worst, clip joints that operate rogue casinos & sportsbooks. And webmasters should not touch them with a barge pole!

However I've made an observation that I feel most of you have overlooked. Or at least no one has posted about it.

As this thread was commenced on the AU topic, it's fitting to remind everyone that GamTrak was recommended as an Affiliate Union founding member to me by APCW Anthony.

However even after Gamtrak responded to Webzcas and admitted she was promoting a Virtual Casino Group casino, and all of the founding member of the AU coped it sideways...APCW Anthony didn't have the balls to post that he'd recommended GamTrak as a founding member of the AU.

That's why I ended up posting the entire story.

Surprisingly enough within 10 - 20 min of the AU details being made public by me, I receive a PM from APCW Anthony requesting a MSN chat and I also received an email too. Since then I've got several from APCW Anthothy.

Obviously tipped off by someone that he needed to get his butt over to the AU thread pronto.

If the truth be know, I'd bet he'd been there since GamTrak answered the VCG question.

I find it extremely funny and ironic that everyone is questioning GamTrak's ethics and integrity. But no one here (I've quit the GPWA so no idea what's been posted there) has bothered to raise any questions about the ethical part in which APCW Anthony played.

To me, the APCW Anthony issue should be just as important as the GamTrak issue.

But like always those in the clique can do no wrong


Cheers

Dave

 

[luckydabberbingo]

I really don't like the way this thing has all gone down.Robin was at least willing to put her time and effort into trying to make this work.Now it is just a bashing session against her.If we have to rogue every casino site and portal who has gambling wages on their site there wont be many of us left.

I also have a difficult time buying in the conspiracy theory ,why would people try to get this effort off the group only to bring it down a week later.Patience is a virtue ,that is what I have learned in my 43 years and I think the announcement was premature to say the least.

And Peter/Greek why would you leave GPWA over this? I don't see this logic at all.And why would you post things liek you are now going on the dark side?I certainly hope you posted that out of frustration and will return.

Judy