Advice please - verified account closed/asked for verification

[george2]

Hi everyone, I've just been accepted here so thank you. My enquiry is, if I have been with a casino a while and also been verified, had numerous withdrawals without a problem, then out of the blue, the casino decides to freeze my account and ask for documentation again, then they have received and reviewed and emailed me to say its been completed. Why are they then asking again for the same documentation? Its all very confusing. This has been going back n forth via calls and emails for a month. All I'm wanting to do is withdraw money. However in their t&c it says that I can self exclude and that any money is to be paid to me. How true is this as I'm seriously thinking of self excluding and sod the lot of them.

 

[jasonuk]

Firstly, welcome to the forum!

So as far as documentation goes, there are two main categories:

• identity - this is done at account creation, and tends to only be requested again when there's a trigger (new address, document expiry etc).
• financial - this is done based on your financial background, so some customers won't be asked at all, others will be reviewed periodically (e.g. 3, 6 or 12 months).

They can ask for documentation for a variety of reasons - but also some operators (or "casinos") have been exploiting this as a "stealth reverse" mechanic by asking for documentation at the point of withdrawal to slow the player down and hope they will play the money back.

While the CDD request is active, you are allowed to deposit and play, but crucially you cannot withdraw.

Furthermore, if you refuse and/or fail the CDD check (at the discretion of the operator), they must close your account and should return all funds at the time of the check plus any subsequent deposits - you'll notice this doesn't include any subsequent winnings, which are likely to be forfeit (and why operators love it - because the player is anti-freerolling themselves).

The

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is crystal clear on this and why it is crucial you stop playing when you receive such a request:

if funds are to be repaid, then the amount repaid should consist of all funds owed to the customer at the point that the threshold was reached, plus all deposits made at that point and thereafter

So they should return your funds if you refuse - but they will close your account as well.

I would not use the self-exclusion mechanism for this, because it can have a lot of unintended consequences:

• If the site has sister properties, those should also exclude you.
• If the site belongs to the GamProtect trial, they may refer you to that and you'll be excluded from all sites participating in the trial (currently Flutter, Entain, Bet365 and WH, but they are looking to expand it in the future) with minimal rights to object.

 

[Video_Poker_Pro]

Firstly, welcome to the forum!

So as far as documentation goes, there are two main categories:

• identity - this is done at account creation, and tends to only be requested again when there's a trigger (new address, document expiry etc).
• financial - this is done based on your financial background, so some customers won't be asked at all, others will be reviewed periodically (e.g. 3, 6 or 12 months).

They can ask for documentation for a variety of reasons - but also some operators (or "casinos") have been exploiting this as a "stealth reverse" mechanic by asking for documentation at the point of withdrawal to slow the player down and hope they will play the money back.

While the CDD request is active, you are allowed to deposit and play, but crucially you cannot withdraw.

Furthermore, if you refuse and/or fail the CDD check (at the discretion of the operator), they must close your account and should return all funds at the time of the check plus any subsequent deposits - you'll notice this doesn't include any subsequent winnings, which are likely to be forfeit (and why operators love it - because the player is anti-freerolling themselves).

The

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is crystal clear on this and why it is crucial you stop playing when you receive such a request:


So they should return your funds if you refuse - but they will close your account as well.

I would not use the self-exclusion mechanism for this, because it can have a lot of unintended consequences:

• If the site has sister properties, those should also exclude you.
• If the site belongs to the GamProtect trial, they may refer you to that and you'll be excluded from all sites participating in the trial (currently Flutter, Entain, Bet365 and WH, but they are looking to expand it in the future) with minimal rights to object.

If you get hit with the sow and you dont want to send the documention, are the casino going to give you the money that you have on your casino account or only your deposit back?

 

[jasonuk]

If you get hit with the sow and you dont want to send the documention, are the casino going to give you the money that you have on your casino account or only your deposit back?

The UKGC guidance (which is based on AML regulations) splits the money into three pots:

• the full balance at the time of the CDD trigger
• any deposits made at or after the trigger
• any winnings generated after the trigger

So if you complete the CDD, all three pots are released and you can go on with your day.

If you refuse or fail the CDD, then AML winds back the clock to the trigger point - so the first pot is unchanged, the second pot becomes withdrawals (refund of deposits) and third pot would be voided.

The astute will be asking another question here, and yes, there is actually a fourth pot which is any losses generated after the trigger. As written, the UKGC guidance says all funds at the trigger point - unconditionally - which suggests those losses should also be voided.

However, should and will are two different things in both directions. We've seen operators threaten to take all the money "because regulations" as a strongarm tactic for compliance, and similarly someone trying to freeroll the casino will have a fight on their hands - because it echoes the self-exclusion fraud of years prior.

 

[ollygarch]

George, welcome. I've only become a member recently. I had a similar problem with Ladbrokes in the last few weeks. It was eventually resolved and I got my money. Perseverance and determination will hopefully get you a result. Of course I will never play Ladbrokes again. They have lost a loyal and profitable customer due their behaviour. Just as I was roundly shafted by Ryanair 14 years ago. I've never flown with them since, but that's another story.

 

[george2]

Day 35 still not recieved my withdrawals. Its day 8 of it actually being sent to finance. Everyday still an excuse. Gc uk been informed of foul play towards customers. Had no communication for 2 days now. No one wanting to answer a call.

 

[maxd]

Day 35 still not recieved my withdrawals. Its day 8 of it actually being sent to finance. Everyday still an excuse. Gc uk been informed of foul play towards customers. Had no communication for 2 days now. No one wanting to answer a call.

AFAICT you haven't identified the casino in question. Have I missed something?
In general I find it much more helpful if we know which casino we're talking about, that would allow us to be a lot more specific in terms of what you might do and what your chances are of seeing this resolved. JMO.

Regards,
Max Drayman
Head of Dispute Arbitration & Player Complaints (PABs)

 

[george2]

Lottomart

 

[maxd]

Really! That's good to know because the rep here, @Mark_Lottomart , is one of the best and Lottomart is run by a truly superb group. We've known these guys for decades, long before Lottomart. IMO if there are problems then there is some reason behind it. Not saying it's your fault, just that this wouldn't be happening for no reason.

I'd strongly suggest you Private Message Mark (use the link above) and let him know your situation. I'm 100% confident that if your issue can be resolved for you it will be.

- Max

 

[george2]

Messaged mark on here twice no reply hence why I'm still reaching out

 

[george2]

35 days ago they froze my account. Sais needed more I.d. everything sent, confirmation everything is verified. Last Thursday a phone call to say my withdrawals been sent to finance. Friday last week, problem with finance because its over the max daily withdrawal. Heard nothing over the weekend. Monday they said they can't get hold of finance. Tuesday they can't get hold of finance. Wednesday still no update, now its Thursday and no one wants to answer the phone.

 

[george2]

Over 30 emails still no withdrawal

 

[maxd]

Messaged mark on here twice no reply hence why I'm still reaching out

Fair enough. Given the situation and the obvious deadlock I'd say it's time to take the Player Arbitration (PAB) approach: Online Casino Complaints . This is a free arbitration service we offer to all Casinomeister forum members.

That'll allow us to talk to Lottomart about your situation, get the necessary details, and see this resolved OR know why that's not possible.

If you do decide to proceed with the PAB __please__ ensure you have read and do comply with the Player Arbitration Policies and Procedures . Failure to do so could slow, stall or even cancel your PAB.

- Max

 

[george2]

There isn't anything to sort out, all confirmed that everything is as it should be, 8 days ago confirmed they sent my withdrawals to finance, still no withdrawals to my bank account. That's all they got left to do.

 

[maxd]

Your choice man. PABs often get resolved within hours but if you want to wait it out on your own fill yer boots.

I'll repeat what I said before though: Lottomart are not people to waffle on payments for no reason. If you're not getting paid then something is up. Might be you, might be them, could be anything really. That's what PABs are for: we dig into the issue and get to the bottom of whatever deadlock is keeping you from getting the money. And given our long-term relationship with the Lottomart crew I have no doubt that we could get to the bottom of this ASAP. Your call, obv.

- Max

 

[george2]

They said because its over the max daily withdrawal limit that it has to be accepted, so someone accept it, they already said my account won't be re opened, so just pay up ain't it

 

[george2]

Pab says I haven't got a open ticket and can't create 1

 

[ollygarch]

I watch with bated breath. Always interested when casinos don't pay out or put an obstacle course in the way. Having said that I have never had a Lottomart account. But I have closed/zero balanced far more accounts than I have still active. Some have made it difficult but I got there in the end. If Maxd says there is a problem which needs identifying and then resolving, then I would agree he is almost certainly right.

 

[george2]

Your choice man. PABs often get resolved within hours but if you want to wait it out on your own fill yer boots.

I'll repeat what I said before though: Lottomart are not people to waffle on payments for no reason. If you're not getting paid then something is up. Might be you, might be them, could be anything really. That's what PABs are for: we dig into the issue and get to the bottom of whatever deadlock is keeping you from getting the money. And given our long-term relationship with the Lottomart crew I have no doubt that we could get to the bottom of this ASAP. Your call, obv.

- Max

A link for pab that works would be great, iv spent the past 15 minutes clicking link after link but no form can be seen

 

[scott dickson]

That link that max sent works fine for me. Scroll down there will be a bit saying submit a complaint click that then click create a ticket.

 

[george2]

will try it

 

[maxd]

Got it @george2 , PAB received and in progress.

Please do ensure that you have read and will comply with the Player Arbitration Policies and Procedures as they are now in full effect regarding this issue.

- Max

 

[george2]

Have read them thanks guys

 

[maxd]

Ok, I've discussed the PAB issue with the casino rep, have been advised of necessary formal processes underway, and agree that the delays that @george2 has mentioned above are unfortunate but unavoidable given the necessary procedures. Once those procedures have completed george2's accounts will be updated accordingly.

Not what anyone wanted to hear, I'm aware, but there it is.

- Max

 

[george2]

What procedures are they please as I have emails from them stating documents verified. So what's holding up my withdrawal. That's my question as Christian said he sent it to the finance team a week ago.

 

[GourdFollower]

What procedures are they please as I have emails from them stating documents verified. So what's holding up my withdrawal. That's my question as Christian said he sent it to the finance team a week ago.

Just a friendly reminder that as you now have an active PAB, our Player Arbitration Policies and Procedures require that you refrain from posting in public while we assist you with your complaint.

Any discussion of your issue should take place in your PAB ticket.

Thanks for your cooperation.

Regards,
GourdFollower
PAB Manager

 

[maxd]

@george2 : Just to add to what has already been said: you were reminded in post #13 and post #22 above to read and respect the Player Arbitration Policies and Procedures which include this:

Any further violations will be taken as an act of bad faith and your PAB will be junked without further comment or explanation.

- Max

 

[george2]

From what u had written it read as though that was done as you said not the outcome you wanted. To me that's been enquired and responded too

 

[nfehily]

I have a sneaky suspicion that you will be paid quite soon simply because you have joined casinomeister and posted your complaint on here.
It makes me wonder how many poor unfortunates there are out there who get treated this badly and never receive their funds though.

 

[jasonuk]

From what u had written it read as though that was done as you said not the outcome you wanted. To me that's been enquired and responded too

Stop posting! If you need to ask questions or seek clarification - do it via your PAB ticket.

Once the PAB process has been concluded (and they will make it clear when that is the case - don't jump the gun) then you will be free to talk about the matter once more, but don't throw the PAB away because you didn't read the rules...

 

[jasonuk]

I have a sneaky suspicion that you will be paid quite soon simply because you have joined casinomeister and posted your complaint on here.
It makes me wonder how many poor unfortunates there are out there who get treated this badly and never receive their funds though.

That can work both ways though - plenty of stories over the years where an OP has either intentionally withheld or forgotten a pivotal piece of information, and what was painted as a straight forward withdrawal becomes something else (up to and including a possible fraud investigation).

Not suggesting that's the case here, but Mark is pretty proactive on this stuff - so if he's been contacted twice and not resolved it, there is possibly more to this than we currently know, and five weeks+ is an unusually long time for account settlement - even a refused CDD can be concluded in less than that.

I guess time to let the PAB play out and see if anything comes out the other side.

 

[Mark_Lottomart]

Hey guys. This issue isn’t something I can comment on unfortunately. It’s going through our internal processes and while I apologise to the OP it’s taken so long, it’s not a straight forward process.

I will also accept that the communication has been below our usual high standards and there have been instances of incorrect info being passed on by automation and also human error. We’ll make improvements on the back of that.

 

[ollygarch]

Great to have the Lottomart input. It does sound as if they are a decent outfit trying to unravel a complex problem.

 

[george2]

Before I continue am I typing in ticket chat if not how do I?

 

[nfehily]

Before I continue am I typing in ticket chat if not how do I?

Have they paid you yet mate?

 

[Mark_Lottomart]

Before I continue am I typing in ticket chat if not how do I?

This is the public forum.

 

[george2]

I cant find my ticket this is so hard to navigate

 

[Mark_Lottomart]

I cant find my ticket this is so hard to navigate

In the navigation menu on the top left there’s a link to tickets.

 

[maxd]

Before I continue am I typing in ticket chat if not how do I?

I see you've now posted in your Ticket again so I'll assume you've found your way. Thanks to Mark for helping things along.

- Max

 

[pekka55]

So it's been over a month? Fuck off and pay the man his money. I'm getting tired of casinos being assholes. If you can't handle the pressure of running a casino then go do something else. Communicate with your customers for fucks sake and don't just leave them hanging for months wondering about what's happening. Fucking amateurs.

 

[dunover]

So it's been over a month? Fuck off and pay the man his money. I'm getting tired of casinos being assholes. If you can't handle the pressure of running a casino then go do something else. Communicate with your customers for fucks sake and don't just leave them hanging for months wondering about what's happening. Fucking amateurs.

You already had a warning for potty-mouthed abuse, back in March.

This is your final chance. In fact, I think that's lenient considering, but the sun's out today.

No need for this language. Please refrain.

 

[Mark_Lottomart]

So it's been over a month? Fuck off and pay the man his money. I'm getting tired of casinos being assholes. If you can't handle the pressure of running a casino then go do something else. Communicate with your customers for fucks sake and don't just leave them hanging for months wondering about what's happening. Fucking amateurs.

It’s very grown up of you to use such language when you don’t know anything about the situation. For your information, we can’t just “pay the man” (the customer is female btw) if we have regulatory obligations to fulfil.

For everyone else’s benefit I can confirm that we’re continuing the dialogue with the player in a hope to come to a resolution.

 

[pekka55]

It’s very grown up of you to use such language when you don’t know anything about the situation. For your information, we can’t just “pay the man” (the customer is female btw) if we have regulatory obligations to fulfil.

For everyone else’s benefit I can confirm that we’re continuing the dialogue with the player in a hope to come to a resolution.

I'm just tired of the constant bullshit players are fed. If it takes you 2 months to fulfil regulatory obligations, then maybe running a casino ain't for you. Something is terribly wrong if players have to come to a forum to get things rolling and threaten with a PAB to get their money.

You had over a month to "continue dialogue" with said customer, but fuck all was done until he/she came here. That's just sad and amateurish all around.

And if I get booted off this forum, then so be it. Who gives a fuck.

 

[Mark_Lottomart]

And if I get booted off this forum, then so be it. Who gives a fuck.

I doubt anyone. Toodle pip!

 

[maxd]

I'm just tired of the constant bullshit players are fed. If it takes you 2 months to fulfil regulatory obligations, then maybe running a casino ain't for you. Something is terribly wrong if players have to come to a forum to get things rolling and threaten with a PAB to get their money.

You had over a month to "continue dialogue" with said customer, but fuck all was done until he/she came here. That's just sad and amateurish all around.

And if I get booted off this forum, then so be it. Who gives a fuck.

Well, with a foul-mouthed, woefully ill-informed, abusive and disrespectful diatribe like that you really must want to meet the curb. Not to mention the Warnings you've been ignoring.

FWIW the OP had filed a PAB, I looked into it with full cooperation from Mark, saw there were perfectly legitimate reasons for the delays, and fully understood that the process would have to run its course. See post #24 above. Apparently Pekka55 doesn't read or pay attention to things he doesn't want to hear. His loss, or not I guess since he says he doesn't care. In any case, adios pekka55.

- Max

 

[george2]

Hi, I'd like a copy of my pab sent to my email please. It's miraculously disappeared.... how convenient. Send me a dm I'll drop my email. I have every normal chat screenshot. Just pab needed. Cheers.

 

[maxd]

Dude, who are you talking to? Mark@Lottomart or us?
And your PAB hasn’t “disappeared” and I can see that you are currently IN your PAB Ticket, so what’s up?
Might be a good idea to chill a bit and let us know what exactly the problem is.

- Max

 

[maxd]

Ah, now we hear that you’ve taken your case to IBAS which is a direct violation of the PAB Rules which are very clear on this point:

"1.9 - While your PAB with us is active and open please do not post on our forums regarding your case, nor on other forums regarding your case, nor file your complaint with another 3rd party arbitration service(s) nor take your case to an ADR. …"

Fair enough, your choice to take it elsewhere but that kills your PAB here at Casinomeister.

Next time please respect the PAB Rules. Thank you for your understanding and cooperation.

- Max

 

[george2]

Have they paid you yet mate?

No they haven't, ALL documentation about myself I have sent and had verified, HOWEVER there asking me for someone else's bank statement because I transfer regularly... that to my partner. Yet other people I also regularly transfer too, I have not been asked for their bank statements. The casino is well dodgy, everyone avoid. How can a company ask me for someone else's bank statements? There not my statements, nor do I have any right to ask for them. Just a absolute joke.

 

[nfehily]

No they haven't, ALL documentation about myself I have sent and had verified, HOWEVER there asking me for someone else's bank statement because I transfer regularly... that to my partner. Yet other people I also regularly transfer too, I have not been asked for their bank statements. The casino is well dodgy, everyone avoid. How can a company ask me for someone else's bank statements? There not my statements, nor do I have any right to ask for them. Just an absolute joke.

Sorry to hear that mate, sounds about right for a casino that wants to give you the runaround. Hope you get paid and that you close the account immediately.