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3Dice Bonus Rounds - Skill or Predetermined?

Joined
Dec 20, 2009
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WI
When you make it to the bonus round of any game --- is the outcome already pre-determined OR can you influence it by your choices or skill such as hitting targets on Kyoko?

I asked question in chat and there wasn't a consensus.

Thoughts?

Diane
 
I have always wondered this too, I play happy valley a lot and wonder if it makes a difference with how many free spins i pick. Hope Enzo stops by and reads this so he can explain it to us.

I asked "Ellen" the support person on 3Dice and she thought it was all pre-determined, but she was going to check with Enzo and let me know.

Thanks,
Diane
 
For features like Aztec, Arctic, and Coral Clams, the picks are predetermined. Guessing that goes for Enchanted Spins as well.

For Happy Valley and Candy Clouds, RTP is higher on the largest number of freespins, as there is more chance of retriggering. The difference is quite small, and probably applies to other platforms where freespins can be retriggered as well. Enzo explained the math long ago somewhere here.

Kyoto pays the same whether you are an expert ninja or not. The games are just a bit of fun.

These statements are based on Enzo's answers, either here or at 3Dice.

Enzo's pretty accessible, if you either pm him here or via email @ 3Dice.
 
For features like Aztec, Arctic, and Coral Clams, the picks are predetermined. Guessing that goes for Enchanted Spins as well.

For Happy Valley and Candy Clouds, RTP is higher on the largest number of freespins, as there is more chance of retriggering. The difference is quite small, and probably applies to other platforms where freespins can be retriggered as well. Enzo explained the math long ago somewhere here.

Kyoto pays the same whether you are an expert ninja or not. The games are just a bit of fun.

These statements are based on Enzo's answers, either here or at 3Dice.

Enzo's pretty accessible, if you either pm him here or via email @ 3Dice.

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Thank you,

That makes me feel better. Other wise, I feel so deflated when I get the minimal amount of spins. Problem is.......now that I have hit the 100 spins a few times on Artic I am always looking for it. Knowing that it is just window dressing and I can't do better or worse than whatever it is scheduled to pay out - makes me feel better.

Diane
 
When you make it to the bonus round of any game --- is the outcome already pre-determined OR can you influence it by your choices or skill such as hitting targets on Kyoko?

I asked question in chat and there wasn't a consensus.

Thoughts?

Diane

definitely pre-determined, the only "skill" involved is what pressure you apply to press the mouse/key button for the spin....:)
 
There's a really good explanation from Enzo in a post somewhere where he explains not only why the picks rounds work the way the do (pre-determined versus the player actually picks), and why mathematically it makes absolutely no difference.

But yes, in simple terms for 3Dice slots (and he was suggesting all other softwares):

PICKS - Pre-determined server side and you're just uncovering the results
SPINS - Each one generated randomly as they happen

So for the 100 free spins on Arctic for example we have both things combined, the fact that you were going to get to the Ice Queen was pre-determined at the trigger of the bonus, you're just uncovering the result so there are no 'good or bad picks', the subsequent 100 spins however, are all independent and random.

For slots like Happy Valley and Candy Clouds, the TRTP of all the different bonus rounds is identical, what you're choosing is the variance. The smaller number of spins at big multipliers are much higher variance then the larger number of spins at smaller multipliers.

I'll see if I can find the post by Enzo I'm referring to.
 
Ahhh right here you go - if you get your head around what Enzo is saying here it all makes absolutely perfect sense:

https://www.casinomeister.com/forums/threads/has-a-change-of-thinking-taken-the-fun-away.56776/

-------------

There are a couple of reasons for not drawing the numbers ahead of time. Security is probably the most important one. Numbers that are drawn ahead of time need to be stored before the player made that choice. Storing those numbers opens room for a security leak where a malicious casino or a malicious player finds or alters the numbers before making the choice. Secondly there's the play experience, clearly the options can't be transmitted to the game client before the choice is made (again - to easy to hack), so that means that the communication can only happen after you do the click.. which results in a deteriorated play experience with potential 'connecting dialogs' and hickups at each e.g. squirrel you hit.



That's a fallacy. Their choice wouldn't make any difference since its a random choice. There is no difference between a random sequence and the sum of two random sequences. Look at it the quantum physics way - the universe where the player would have made another choice is also a universe where the choices were different.

Let me try to illustrate. Game with two treasure chests.

Code:
scenario A.

server picks two random prizes : $4 for chest 1 and $11 for chest 2.
user picks chest 1.
server sends $4 as prize and $11 for the reveal. (server can only do its bookkeeping here, after the choice).
user gets jerky anim because of wait for server.

now lets transform that a tiny little bit ..

Code:
scenario B.

server does nothing.
user picks chest 1.
server picks two random prizes : $4 for chest 1 and $11 for chest 2.
server sends $4 as prize and $11 for the reveal. (server can only do its bookkeeping here, after the choice).
user gets jerky anim because of wait for server - same result.

that's interesting .. we solved the storage problem .. but not the connection/smoothness one. I think
everyone will agree that this is the same as scenario A.

lets transform it a tiny bit more ..

Code:
scenario C.

server does nothing.
user picks chest 1
server generates random prize for user choice : $4, and random prize for the other chest : $11
server sends $4 as prize and $11 for the reveal. (server can only do its bookkeeping here, after the choice).
user gets jerky anim because of wait for server - same result.

Subtle difference .. but imho still clearly 100% equivalent. No more storage problem .. but still a connection problem.

and after a last modification :

Code:
server generates random prize for user choice : $4, and random prize for the other chest : $11
server sends $4 as prize and $11 for the reveal. (server can do its bookkeeping here, before the choice - in fact can do it as soon as the bet is received.).
user picks chest 1
user gets smooth anim - same result.

Now we solved both problems, and still did exactly the same as in scenario C, which was the same as B, which is the same as A ..

Long story short the fallacy is ofcourse thinking the choice makes a difference in scenario A .. so let me just say this :
if it makes a difference in A, then it makes a difference in D .. if it doesn't in A .. it doesn't in D.

so,



Even in scenario A the user's pick doesn't matter - the user that believes that simply does not understand random - which is not a requirement at all
to appreciate the game - but deducing the user's random choice makes a difference in any scenario is a perception mistake. (its a common one - this
is one of those contra-intuitive things that makes gambling interesting)

Cheers,

Enzo
 
There are all pre-determined but designed to look as if skill or luck has something to do with it. Its not only 3 Dice but applicable for all software
That's not 100% true; CryptoLogic and Rival both have slot games where true skill DOES effect the outcome of the bonus round.
I don't know for sure, but I've always assumed that the most skilful players will achieve the slot's stated RTP, whereas the less skilled will get a lower overall return.

KK
 
That's not 100% true; CryptoLogic and Rival both have slot games where true skill DOES effect the outcome of the bonus round.
I don't know for sure, but I've always assumed that the most skilful players will achieve the slot's stated RTP, whereas the less skilled will get a lower overall return.

KK

A long time ago I think we saw docs from Rival where they wrote two different RTP's for those skill games. One for the most skillful and one for the average. I had those documents in a nowadays crashed PC. :o
 
That's not 100% true; CryptoLogic and Rival both have slot games where true skill DOES effect the outcome of the bonus round.
I don't know for sure, but I've always assumed that the most skilful players will achieve the slot's stated RTP, whereas the less skilled will get a lower overall return.

KK

Indeed, as my cashout from Tropica on the 1777% bonus will bear testament to :) (The screenshot below was taken after I'd completed the WR of over £122,000)

(Not that I could cash all of this out due to the terms of the bonus, but I still got £1050 out from £200 of deposits.)

If you could get good enough at the mini golf bonus round the RTP on The Back Nine was 98-99%, which made the 65xD+B WR on the 1777% bonus eminently achievable! (Rival nerfed the slot MASSIVELY after I beat the bonus, reducing its RTP with perfect play from 99% to 95% AND reduced its contribution to WR to 10%!)

troppers.webp
 
Indeed, as my cashout from Tropica on the 1777% bonus will bear testament to :) (The screenshot below was taken after I'd completed the WR of over £122,000)

(Not that I could cash all of this out due to the terms of the bonus, but I still got £1050 out from £200 of deposits.)

If you could get good enough at the mini golf bonus round the RTP on The Back Nine was 98-99%, which made the 65xD+B WR on the 1777% bonus eminently achievable! (Rival nerfed the slot MASSIVELY after I beat the bonus, reducing its RTP with perfect play from 99% to 95% AND reduced its contribution to WR to 10%!)

View attachment 45929

Wow............never saw a bonus offer that HIGH at a Rival casino. Good for you!

Diane
 
I know we've been here a million times, but I point blank refuse to believe that free spin rounds on Microgaming Casino's are not pre-determined. I.e - The total coin amount win is set when you press go.

No logic to back it up I'm afraid, just around 12 years of lookng at them.
 
I know we've been here a million times, but I point blank refuse to believe that free spin rounds on Microgaming Casino's are not pre-determined. I.e - The total coin amount win is set when you press go.

No logic to back it up I'm afraid, just around 12 years of lookng at them.

12 years isn't enough, so here's some logic and mathematics proving that you're wrong.

A) Sometimes it's mathematically impossible to get the same result on two different bonuses because you can't even win the same number of coins (IR: Sarah bonus paying 10 coins, which isn't possible to get on Amber)

B) It's outrageous to even think that you'd get the same win on low variance bonuses (ie: Playboy's Ashley) than the top pay on the high variance ones (ie: full screen of wilds on Sofia).

And last but not least:

C) kktmd ran millions of spins on different bonuses and posted the stats here. The RTP is about the same on all bonuses, the range of wins, however, isn't the same at all.
 

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