XXLClubCasino V Me Opinion wanted

[uungy]

I havent had the time to do this recently, however I have been in contact with XXLLCC in regards to this, and we are both open to hear what people think.

I had a dispute with Fank, and this is basically how it goes. I obviously put my side out, and I will try to put out XXLClubs point, but being biased to myself its a little difficult

I recieved an offer back in December

A very nice Christmas gift is awaiting you in the Casino lobby!

Simply login to your account (XXXXXXXXXXX) to open your present.

On behalf of myself and the whole XXL Club Casino team, I would like to wish you and your families a Merry Christmas and a prosperous New Year.

I look forward to seeing you at the tables!

Frank LLoyd
Manager, XXL Club Casino

Link Removed ( Old/Invalid)

The one and only 5 star online casino


* You must have received this promotion email to be eligible to participate in the XXL Club loyalty program.
* This is a one time offer and expires 10 days from today's date (23/12/2006) at 00.00 EST.
* We kindly ask that you to wager your Xmas present 25 times.
* Players who have a GBP sterling account are required to wager their bonus plus deposit 35 times.
* Bonus/deposit amounts are the same in all currencies: 100 = $100 = 100
* Players with one or more pending withdrawals are not eligible to receive this bonus.
* Please review our Bonus Link Removed ( Old/Invalid) .

Note where the T&C's link goes to, which is an anchor by the monthly bonus terms, which has no maximum cash out.

I wagered as required, and requested a withdrawal, however I only recieved 100 of my withdrawal.

I was told the reason was because it had a maximum withdrawal of 100 (not mentioned in the email or in the t&c's in the link), however the terms for this offer are right down the page, whihc is for offeres sent to 200 customers or whatever, however that wasn't where the link took me to. it would have been to Link Removed ( Old/Invalid) . I honestly did not see those terms there, as they were at the bottom of the page, and only saw them after my withdrawal was refused, when it was pointed out by them.

Emails sent after, had it in the email about the maximum withdrawal limit, however the one above sent on the 23rd Dec, had no info about it.

While the 10 was a free gift, however I believe the terms and conditions are there to stay.

Different partial bonus form offers were offered to me instead, like a 15%-50% of my withdrawal with the standard wagering requirements.

Playtech were not helpful, but to be honest when I contacted Frank through this website he was very helpful, alot more so then Playtech. They never respond, and do nothing in the players interest, as proven before with the wofacai casino problem. So I am not bashing him at all, just want to hear what others think

 

[SlotsWizard]

How big was the withdrawal you tried to make?

They should meet you halfway: halfway between the 100 Euros maximum and the actual amount you tried to withdraw.

 

[uungy]

The withdrawal was for 411, which included a very few of comp points as far as I remember

I may be coming up as unfair, however while a half half sounds fine, its not what the terms say or was advertised

 

[niklas]

If they fail to effectively communicate any terms of the promotion, I don't think you should be bound by them. It was their mistake that made you miss the max cashout term, not yours. Players make mistakes all the time and we pay for them, like missclicking in blackjack and taking insurance when you didn't mean to, or forgetting to set your bet size when entering a VP or slots game.

But it does feel good when the dealer hits the blackjack or you get dealt a good hand on that bet of 10 times what you intended.

 

[winbig]

Playing devil's advocate again:

Yes, it was your responsibility to read the T&C.
Yes, it was their fault for providing you with a link to the wrong T&C.

Even so, you should have known that these were the wrong T&C. It clearly states that those T&C were for a monthly bonus, NOT the xmas gift. If there's any discrepancy over T&C, you should get it cleared up before you play. That goes for anyone

No, it's not the casino's duty to give you your full cashout.

But, in the interest of keeping you on as a customer, they should agree to a "settlement".

 

[vinylweatherman]

You are BOTH wrong!

The full terms are for a max of 100 in WINNINGS, therefore, with the total absence of any term indicating the bonus 10 was "phantom", you should receive 110.

The Mailer is confusing as it repeats SOME of the terms, but misses out TWO critical ones, the max cashout AND the game restrictions.


I also notice that despite all the obvious "advantage" opportunities having been removed for the clever UK player (Double up on Blackjack, big Pair+ on poker 3 etc), they STILL insist that here in the UK we are somehow "skillful" at SLOTS!!!! Bollox to that, admit they are NON RANDOM & I will accept there is justification to bump up WR for Brits who, uniquely in the developed world, can play "slots" during childhood at the seaside "amusement casinos" at the end of the pier, and develop intuitive skills that enables them to press "spin" in that very "special" way that gives them an edge.

 

[uungy]

Well the point is, there were no T&C's at the time which would point to the correct terms and conditions

The only other T&C's were about mailers sent to the 200 customers or something, which had no mention in the email about it.

The email had all the info in regards to what it can be wagered on, and it all matched with the monthly anyway, so I accepted that was the T&C's.

To say you should contact the casino about the promotion, I would onlyu do that if there are any discrepancies, but there were non I could see, it all seemed so well put out, what was there to ask?

Also vinylweatherman, it may be they were wrong too, but you havent explained what you think. If the email had no information about it, why am I in the wrong, when they clearly steered me to those terms?

 

[XXLClubCasino]

We did offer a settlement where we would give the player 150€ (50% from the remaining 300€ / (400winning-100paid)) in bonus to be wagered 12x with no maximum cashout this on top of the 100€ that was already paid to the player.

My position was always that the wrongly formatted inner link pointed to the right page but not to the right inner link which point to the monthly loyalty bonus that as really nothing to do with the free Xmas bonus. I feel that the player received a totally free Xmas gift of 100€ with no deposit needed nor had to risk any of its own cash and he should/could be happy about it and should not try to find a smart way to get more out of it. Other players that win from the same free Xmas promotion send us a thank you email!

It was also my Idea to ask players from this forum to give us their opinion about what a fair resolution could be to this unfortunate typo in an inner anchor.

Anyway I agree that we were partially wrong as the anchor was wrongly formatted by mistake and there fore proposed the settlement as stated previously.

I hope to have given our side of the story accurately back (6 months have past). Uungy please do correct me if I'm not.

Please give us all your opinion and I will comply with what ever comes out!

 

[XXLClubCasino]

PS. we are working on having UK players treated as any other players 12x WR instead of the 25x. Should be in place next month.

 

[vinylweatherman]

Well the point is, there were no T&C's at the time which would point to the correct terms and conditions

The only other T&C's were about mailers sent to the 200 customers or something, which had no mention in the email about it.

The email had all the info in regards to what it can be wagered on, and it all matched with the monthly anyway, so I accepted that was the T&C's.

To say you should contact the casino about the promotion, I would onlyu do that if there are any discrepancies, but there were non I could see, it all seemed so well put out, what was there to ask?

Also vinylweatherman, it may be they were wrong too, but you havent explained what you think. If the email had no information about it, why am I in the wrong, when they clearly steered me to those terms?

The term starts "ALL", as in "All free cash promotions". So if this was a free chip, these terms would apply, even though a confusion has been thrown in becase it then goes on to specify the rules for the "first 200" mailer promotion, whereas yours was a different one, a Christmas gift. (it's a tiny mistake - not remembering the word ALL when you initially read through all the T & C before playing bonuses - and then realising that maybe there was a mistake, and checking with CS)
The casino is wrong on more than one count though, since the link went to a SPECIFIC set of terms, and not just to the start of the page, the player can normally expect that those were the specific terms for the promotion received, even though the monthly was used as an illustrative example, just as the "first 200" mailer is an illustrative example for what the casino say were the proper terms.

In retrospect, even if you knew the max cashout, you would have still won some 400, and still lost all but 100 (or 110). You might, however, have had more "entertainment" value by playing off the excess on the more amusing slots until you had enough to make the max cashout.

I find all these max cashout rules a bit of a "con", as they have the effect of increasing the house edge by the back door when, by chance, a good winning spell comes along when a max cashout chip is being played, which means that earlier losses, although recovered, are then removed rather than bringing up the average payout over the life of the account.

Max cashouts seem to indicate the casinos are "afraid of something" in terms of players hitting big. It would be better to lower the rate of bonuses awarded, rather than pile them on with such limits on what is the best outcome of a session, a big win.
Psycologically, gamblers remember the big wins (payouts), but not so the boring and usually losing sessions. Thus, lost winnings due to max cashout rules will stick in the memory, and MAY induce reluctance to play with bonuses. This may be best for the casino, but only if the competition follows the same strategy.
It is EXTREMELY RARE to have a max cashout at any Microgaming casino outside of the "free 1 hour & $500" or "free $10 - no deposit required" promotional types used to bring in new players. I would have said "unheard of", but there has been one instance posted of an MG imposing a max cashout on a free chip given to an EXISTING player - can't remember the exact details.

 

[vinylweatherman]

We did offer a settlement where we would give the player 150 (50% from the remaining 300 / (400winning-100paid)) in bonus to be wagered 12x with no maximum cashout this on top of the 100 that was already paid to the player.

My position was always that the wrongly formatted inner link pointed to the right page but not to the right inner link which point to the monthly loyalty bonus that as really nothing to do with the free Xmas bonus. I feel that the player received a totally free Xmas gift of 100 with no deposit needed nor had to risk any of its own cash and he should/could be happy about it and should not try to find a smart way to get more out of it. Other players that win from the same free Xmas promotion send us a thank you email!
It was also my Idea to ask players from this forum to give us their opinion about what a fair resolution could be to this unfortunate typo in an inner anchor.

Anyway I agree that we were partially wrong as the anchor was wrongly formatted by mistake and there fore proposed the settlement as stated previously.

I hope to have given our side of the story accurately back (6 months have past). Uungy please do correct me if I'm not.

Please give us all your opinion and I will comply with what ever comes out!

It may have been the right page, however it appears that there were NO "correct terms" for the promotion anyway, even looking through the whole page.
There IS a term about a free $10 available to the first 200 replies, and you are arguing that uungy should have realised this was the correct terms (granted), HOWEVER, your agument is that uungy should have realised the mistake because the link went to the terms for "a different promotion". This gives inconsitency to the argument - you cannot both say that terms being for a different promotion are clearly wrong, yet then claim that another set of terms, again for what is a different promotion, are intrinsically right.

uungy is of course attempting to squeeze as much value as possible from the Xmas chip, but so would any self respecting gambler, more winnings now means more available for further gambling tomorrow. Casinos are doing the exact same, attempting to squeeze as much value as possible from their player base, what self respecting casino wouldn't, more hold now means better marketing opportunities tomorrow.

If we argue that uungy is somehow a "rogue" for what he has tried, then it follows that so is the casino.

A negotiated compromise is the best solution, both sides are wrong in part, and the casino needs to ensure that every promotion has it's own specific set of terms, quoting the actual promotion itself, not just one that may be "similar" to one party but not to the other, or confusing to everyone.

Players would rather NOT have to contact CS for every tiny matter, this is from experience of queues, inept first replies, and ignored E-mails, when we want to play NOW!

 

[uungy]

Fair point, but to say "you anyway would have had to give in the extra above 100" is not really what I am saying, as thats not the terms and conditions given, are the ones which have to be honoured

While its fair to say that it was free etc., but terms stay as they are given

Clearly "all free cash" could have been appropriate (which I didnt notice when i click the link) however the "monthly bonus" could be just as appropriate

No one is saying I didnt appreciate the bonus, but thats a side point altogether, and doesnt justify the fact that the wrong terms were given

I accepted the main terms were in the email, and the rest was just explained in the link

 

[vinylweatherman]

Fair point, but to say "you anyway would have had to give in the extra above 100" is not really what I am saying, as thats not the terms and conditions given, are the ones which have to be honoured

While its fair to say that it was free etc., but terms stay as they are given

Clearly "all free cash" could have been appropriate (which I didnt notice when i click the link) however the "monthly bonus" could be just as appropriate

No one is saying I didnt appreciate the bonus, but thats a side point altogether, and doesnt justify the fact that the wrong terms were given

I accepted the main terms were in the email, and the rest was just explained in the link

Well, look on the bright side, another prod from me about another issue, and we get this:-

PS. we are working on having UK players treated as any other players 12x WR instead of the 25x. Should be in place next month.

It shouldn't take long, surely casinos are free to set their own rules - I would have expected this to have been done already from the case put in the earlier thread that the game exclusions rule out the kinds of advantage play that would need an elevated WR for a high value currency.

I've seen worse, one Playtech is offering a high roller "deposit 5000 for 1000", phantom bonus, and WR of 50x D+B with quite a few game exclusions This would pretty much be a donation of 5000 to the casino, and is not going to get them many British players other than those that don't care about never cashing in, or don't bother with promotions.

 

[uungy]

I can never work that out too. Also when casinos add the clause "when depositing in GBP and the user isn't from the UK the wagering goes up to xx" why do they do that? What do they care what currency is used to deposit?

It doesn't effect me, but just cant get around their terms.

True something has changed, to the positive, but just cant work out why casinos have to give a hard chase around.

 

[happygobrokey]

hey uungy! i was at one of those last night.

signup: 100% to 150, many exclusions ("normal" ones plus all blackjacks, JoB, A&F vp, war), normal wagering 10x.

- non-uk players using pounds 50x.
- uk players using pounds 50x.
- uk players using euro or us dollars 50x.
- north americans using euro 50x.
- players from countries W,X,Y, and Z 50x or 100x.
- and possibly a limited cashout or forced into slots only if you fall into any of the above groups, if i'm not mistaken. good thing i read that all super-carefully before signing up eh

and the craziest part was they are advertised here. and when i made the deposit of USD 150, i only got 45 of bonus and am now in the midst of getting this cleared up. they told me i was only eligible for 30% on my first deposit unless i came from an affiliate link. to which i responded i did, and mentioned navigating by myself to their website yields the same bonus offer?? this was just this evening i sent the reply, so i await their response to my reply to them.

and now to re-rail, i think the casino were partially responsible for the misunderstanding, and since xxl replied here also that "the other ones who won didn't try to squeeze us, they patted us on the back" it implies they had few winners and possibly none winning more than the imposed max. and by this i mean it sounds like the casino got its take on this anyway without a max win being even an issue anywhere else. plus, i don't think you could reasonably expect a "first 200 responders" to be the relevant section when it wasn't what was pointed to, nor was "first 200 only" mentioned as being in the email (was it?). and why was the word Xmas bonus never used on the page?

i think splitting it amicably at 200, half the total won and twice the alleged max cashout, would be the best way to settle it. xxl already offered some back as a bonus, so that's nearly an admission of liability in my eyes. and given the evidence i think they do owe him something, and applying his own winnings as bonus just ain't cricket imo. i would pay 200 and offer a nice incentive bonus next month or double comps on next deposit or any token gesture to welcome the player back.

 

[vinylweatherman]

hey uungy! i was at one of those last night.

signup: 100% to 150, many exclusions ("normal" ones plus all blackjacks, JoB, A&F vp, war), normal wagering 10x.

- non-uk players using pounds 50x.
- uk players using pounds 50x.
- uk players using euro or us dollars 50x.
- north americans using euro 50x.
- players from countries W,X,Y, and Z 50x or 100x.
- and possibly a limited cashout or forced into slots only if you fall into any of the above groups, if i'm not mistaken. good thing i read that all super-carefully before signing up eh

and the craziest part was they are advertised here. and when i made the deposit of USD 150, i only got 45 of bonus and am now in the midst of getting this cleared up. they told me i was only eligible for 30% on my first deposit unless i came from an affiliate link. to which i responded i did, and mentioned navigating by myself to their website yields the same bonus offer?? this was just this evening i sent the reply, so i await their response to my reply to them.

and now to re-rail, i think the casino were partially responsible for the misunderstanding, and since xxl replied here also that "the other ones who won didn't try to squeeze us, they patted us on the back" it implies they had few winners and possibly none winning more than the imposed max. and by this i mean it sounds like the casino got its take on this anyway without a max win being even an issue anywhere else. plus, i don't think you could reasonably expect a "first 200 responders" to be the relevant section when it wasn't what was pointed to, nor was "first 200 only" mentioned as being in the email (was it?). and why was the word Xmas bonus never used on the page?

i think splitting it amicably at 200, half the total won and twice the alleged max cashout, would be the best way to settle it. xxl already offered some back as a bonus, so that's nearly an admission of liability in my eyes. and given the evidence i think they do owe him something, and applying his own winnings as bonus just ain't cricket imo. i would pay 200 and offer a nice incentive bonus next month or double comps on next deposit or any token gesture to welcome the player back.

This is complete stupidity where their a$$es are well covered by the game exclusions. Such terms, coupled with the low variance of Playtech slots in general, and the bonus being "sticky", leaves such players with near to no chance of EVER winning from these promotions. Playing without promotions ALSO puts them at a disadvantage, as the general game payouts are lowered by the software provider to allow the casino to use free money as a promotional tool in the first place.

The UK is the ONLY "first world" country to start taking this industry seriously, rather than either ignoring it or attempting to restrict or ban it for it's own citizens - and this is the thanks we get from Playtech
Although other countries DO issue online gaming licences, it is merely intended as a tool to freeze out offshore operators in favour of state run games (see cases brought against Germany and Italy in the EU courts for "protectionism").

 

[Pinababy69]

I'm with Winbig on this one. Incorrect terms link sent in the mailer or not, it was a free/no deposit chip, and as such should be subject to their free chip rules, which if I understand correctly, ARE posted in their T&C's? And while I don't play at Playtech myself, I do know that it is common practice to set a max cashout on totally free chips, usually 10X the amount of the chip. I didn't say it is ALWAYS that way...I said it's common, before anyone jumps down my throat.

And again, anytime I get a free chip from anywhere....I would contact support to verify the correct WR and cashout policy. I think that the $100 payout, and an offer to have the other $150 given as a bonus is a fair compromise. JMO.

 

[uungy]

I'm with Winbig on this one. Incorrect terms link sent in the mailer or not, it was a free/no deposit chip, and as such should be subject to their free chip rules, which if I understand correctly, ARE posted in their T&C's? And while I don't play at Playtech myself, I do know that it is common practice to set a max cashout on totally free chips, usually 10X the amount of the chip. I didn't say it is ALWAYS that way...I said it's common, before anyone jumps down my throat.

And again, anytime I get a free chip from anywhere....I would contact support to verify the correct WR and cashout policy. I think that the $100 payout, and an offer to have the other $150 given as a bonus is a fair compromise. JMO.

There are no details which refer to free chips. (the all free chips heading has been changed since if I am not mistaken)

Just because its common, it makes no sense to ask. Asking the reps, as someone said earlier often takes a while to get an answer, besides, if there is no info in the terms, why should someone suspect that.

This is about, if a casino offers an incentive, whatever it may be, and the casino prides itself with being honest and fair, it should stick to the terms given. It makes no sense to say "often there is a max cashout, so it should apply here too" as that was not what was in the terms, so how can that be added and expected that a casino can just get away with that?

This is about what would be the "right thing" taking into account what the casino has laid down as the terms in the mailer/website

 

[XXLClubCasino]

There are no details which refer to free chips. (the all free chips heading has been changed since if I am not mistaken)

Just because its common, it makes no sense to ask. Asking the reps, as someone said earlier often takes a while to get an answer, besides, if there is no info in the terms, why should someone suspect that.

This is about, if a casino offers an incentive, whatever it may be, and the casino prides itself with being honest and fair, it should stick to the terms given. It makes no sense to say "often there is a max cashout, so it should apply here too" as that was not what was in the terms, so how can that be added and expected that a casino can just get away with that?

This is about what would be the "right thing" taking into account what the casino has laid down as the terms in the mailer/website

The terms that applied to the Xmas bonus was and still is
--------------------------------------------
All Free Cash Promotions

The FREE Cash Bonus mentioned in the promotional email will be given only to the first 200 players who initially received this email.

Some of our bonuses are given automatically, and others have to be requested. If you have not received your bonus automatically please send an email to [email protected].

Please note that:
In the interest of fair gaming, you must wager at least 25 (twenty five) times the FREE cash amount before making any cash outs.

Bets placed in the games Craps, Roulette (all sorts of Roulette), Blackjack (all sorts of blackjack), Video Poker (all sorts of Video Poker), Sic Bo, Poker Three and Baccarat does not fulfil the player's obligations with regard to the minimum wagering requirements.

The above mentioned restricted games CAN'T be played before fulfilling the wagering requirement or all winnings will be void.

Money won on restricted games before the completion of the bonus wagering requirements will not be available for withdrawal.

Provided that the €/$/10 has been wagered in full, any balance over and above the original €/$/10 will be considered winnings.

A maximum winnings of €/$/100 may be withdrawn.

For full Casino Terms and Conditions please click here
--------------------------------------------------

The link to it is: Link Removed ( Old/Invalid)
in the Xmas promotion the link Link Removed ( Old/Invalid) was given.

note the difference at the end of the link #gop instead of #lb

Also common sense would say that a free Xmas promotion as absolutely nothing to do with the monthly deposit bonus and any player would recognize it and accept the email to have had a typo.

We are fair and we stick to our T&C saying we are not fair and honest because of an obvious wrongly formated anchor is going a little bit too far!!

PS: The T&C were updated today to remove the unpopular 25/35 WR for UK resident with accounts. Nothing else was added or changed.

 

[tristan727]

Why have these promos, if relies on the customer hunting down obscure t and c's buried somewhere in jargon. You don't get any problems with any promos with any Wagerworks or Crypto casinos - you just need to check out your cashier account & you can see if any probs straight away, like wagering not counting towards a bonus or something. Keep it simple, or don't do it.

If I was going round offering a free 10 euro chip to hundreds of customers - I'd have it blazened over half the email that the max cashout was only 100....so why was it not even mentioned, this lil minor wee tidbit? Call me sceptic, but whomever write's up these emails probably thinks you can't have anything in it, which might appear negative, or a downer?

 

[Pinababy69]

I had just been going to ask if the "Free Chips" Terms (that the casino rep posted above), were on the website when Uungy was given the n/d bonus. If so, then I'm afraid I'd have to side with the casino on this one. It was very clearly not a deposit bonus. As to not wanting to wait for an answer from support.....does XXL Club Casino offer live support/chat? Either through the software or via the website?

Maybe it's just me, but anytime I receive a totally free chip somewhere, I make it my business to find out the correct T&C's relative to that free chip. I understand your frustration Uungy, but if the offer of the $150 credited as a bonus to your account is still good, I'd take it and hope for the best.

Now if those free chip rules posted above were NOT clearly visible on the website, I'd say Uungy has a case. Again, this is nothing more than a personal opinion.

 

[uungy]

Why am i not to think that the terms are the same as the monthly?

The link didnt take me there, it took me to a particular part on the page, so when i clicked the link, all i saw were those terms and conditions. I abided to them and the the terms sent in the email, I dont think thats too hard to comprehend.

The free cash or something terms, a I said to you earlier, I didn't even see those terms, so why do you expect a customer to go searching through your site, if the link you gave took me to a specific set of terms.

I am not like Pinababy69 who drowns the casino with loads of questions when i get a promo, I use initiative (not saying you dont have, just i use mine and play) if its a normal casino, and play, if its one of those that you have to ask, ie a "hidden terms" casino, I leave them, and play elsewhere

Again, its nothing to do with the fact I should have asked, the main thing is, the terms and conditions were clearly in the email, the email had a link (maybe i should have contacted them here, but I didn't) I played with "their" terms and conditions, they ought to stand by them.

If I would have asked them if there was a max cashout, and they would have stated there was, I would have played by that, but at the end of the day, the terms were not mentioned, so it is still a clause added

 

[Pinababy69]

Why am i not to think that the terms are the same as the monthly?

The monthly is a deposit bonus isn't it? There is a big difference between a gift/free chip/no deposit bonus....and a deposit bonus, IMO.

Okay, so the link took you to the terms page, but at the bottom of that very page...isn't that where it shows the Free Chip Rules?

Anyway Uungy, I don't want to argue with you. You asked for opinions, I offered mine. I'm sorry it doesn't agree with yours. It's an opinion, nothing more. Hope it gets worked out to your satisfaction.

 

[XXLClubCasino]

I had just been going to ask if the "Free Chips" Terms (that the casino rep posted above), were on the website when Uungy was given the n/d bonus. If so, then I'm afraid I'd have to side with the casino on this one. It was very clearly not a deposit bonus. As to not wanting to wait for an answer from support.....does XXL Club Casino offer live support/chat? Either through the software or via the website?

Yes the terms were there at promotion time, and yes we added the max cashout info to any subsequent free chips no deposit promotion (New Year Gift) to be absolutely clear.

Yes, we offer 24/7 chat support through the website and through the casino client.

It is not in our intention to foul our players or to raise wrong expectations. We do want happy returning players we are here for the long run and we would have absolutely no benefit in tricking players out.

This free gift was at absolutely zero risk to the player so I honestly can't understand why a player would feel abused or tricked into anything. Why not simply enjoy the free 100€ you got and be happy?

An interesting discussion could be if legally any inner link would be predominant to the main link to the T&C. We could also only give a link to the T&C page and leave the player pick the right right T&C for the bonus given. "All free cash" is pretty clear to me and can't be misunderstand and confused with "Monthly Loyalty Bonus".

 

[uungy]

The monthly is a deposit bonus isn't it? There is a big difference between a gift/free chip/no deposit bonus....and a deposit bonus, IMO.

Okay, so the link took you to the terms page, but at the bottom of that very page...isn't that where it shows the Free Chip Rules?

Anyway Uungy, I don't want to argue with you. You asked for opinions, I offered mine. I'm sorry it doesn't agree with yours. It's an opinion, nothing more. Hope it gets worked out to your satisfaction.

No probs, I was explaining, but we can agree to differ, no problems at all with that! I have thanked your post anyway, as I appreciate all opinions for or against my thinking

 

[uungy]

Yes the terms were there at promotion time, and yes we added the max cashout info to any subsequent free chips no deposit promotion (New Year Gift) to be absolutely clear.

It is not in our intention to foul our players or to raise wrong expectations. We do want happy returning players we are here for the long run and we would have absolutely no benefit in tricking players out.

This free gift was at absolutely zero risk to the player so I honestly can't understand why a player would feel abused or tricked into anything. Why not simply enjoy the free 100 you got and be happy?

An interesting discussion could be if legally any inner link would be predominant to the main link to the T&C. We could also only give a link to the T&C page and leave the player pick the right right T&C for the bonus given. "All free cash" is pretty clear to me and can't be misunderstand and confused with "Monthly Loyalty Bonus".

But they werent there for th Xmas promo

 

[Pinababy69]

But they werent there for th Xmas promo

Is that true XXL? If those "Free Chip Rules" were not at the bottom of the terms page when Uungy received the free chip, I'd do a complete 180 on my position. Did you only add them after the Xmas promo? Or update them after the Xmas promo? If it was an update, what EXACTLY did they say originally? Did it state that there was a max cashout on the free chip?

 

[XXLClubCasino]

Is that true XXL? If those "Free Chip Rules" were not at the bottom of the terms page when Uungy received the free chip, I'd do a complete 180 on my position. Did you only add them after the Xmas promo? Or update them after the Xmas promo? If it was an update, what EXACTLY did they say originally? Did it state that there was a max cashout on the free chip?

No it's not, the all free chips rule has been there from day 1 and was never updated except to include pokerthree as restricted game. KK surely could confirm it with a screenshot.

We only updated subsequent promotion emails to have the max cashout rule in the email body instead of only providing a link to the T&C.

 

[Pinababy69]

No it's not, the all free chips rule has been there from day 1 and was never updated except to include pokerthree as restricted game. KK surely could confirm it with a screenshot.

We only updated subsequent promotion emails to have the max cashout rule in the email body instead of only providing a link to the T&C.

So they have always been exactly where they are now? And they stated that there was a max cashout of $100 on a $10 free chip? If so, my original opinion stands.

Yeah, I'd like to see a screenshot if KK or anyone else has one. Wonder if a wayback search would do the trick? How long before pages get archived in Google?

 

[XXLClubCasino]

So they have always been exactly where they are now? And they stated that there was a max cashout of $100 on a $10 free chip? If so, my original opinion stands.

Yeah, I'd like to see a screenshot if KK or anyone else has one. Wonder if a wayback search would do the trick? How long before pages get archived in Google?

Well trust me on that one cause the All Free chips T&C with max cashout was needed from the first day we started the online casino.

Uungy just didn't scroll down or it was simply more convenient to believe the monthly bonus to be the valid T&C and have a case.

google cache unfortunately from the 15th of July 07: Outdated URL (Invalid)

 

[Pinababy69]

Answered My Own Question

From December 3, 2006.

You do not have permission to view link Log in or register now.

All Free Cash Promotions
The FREE Cash Bonus mentioned in the promotional email will be given only to the first 200 players who initially received this email.

Some of our bonuses are given automatically, and others have to be requested. If you have not received your bonus automatically please send an email to [email protected].

Please note that:
In the interest of fair gaming, you must wager at least 25 (twenty five) times the FREE cash amount before making any cash outs.

Players who play in GBP, are required to wager a minimum of 35x (thirty five) times the free cash bonus before cashing out any amount higher than the initial free cash amount.

Bets placed in the games Craps, Roulette (American, French & European), Blackjack (all sorts of blackjack), Video Poker (all sorts of Video Poker), Sic Bo and Baccarat does not fulfil the player's obligations with regard to the minimum wagering requirements.

The above mentioned restricted games CAN'T be played before fulfilling the wagering requirement or all winnings will be void.

Money won on restricted games before the completion of the bonus wagering requirements will not be available for withdrawal.

Provided that the /$/10 has been wagered in full, any balance over and above the original /$/10 will be considered winnings.

A maximum winnings of /$/100 may be withdrawn.


I could have taken a screenshot, but just copied and pasted. However, the link goes directly to that page on that date. I understand Uungy's frustration about the link in the email taking him to the wrong "spot"...however, as you stated, there is no confusing a deposit bonus with a no deposit/free chip bonus. And the terms were there.

Edited to correct: The home page link was for Dec. 3/2006. The bonus terms looks like it was from August of 2006, which is even earlier.

 

[uungy]

Well trust me on that one cause the All Free chips T&C with max cashout was needed from the first day we started the online casino.

Uungy just didn't scroll down or it was simply more convenient to believe the monthly bonus to be the valid T&C and have a case.

google cache unfortunately from the 15th of July 07: Outdated URL (Invalid)

as i said earlier

The link didnt take me there, it took me to a particular part on the page, so when i clicked the link, all i saw were those terms and conditions. I abided to them and the the terms sent in the email, I dont think thats too hard to comprehend.

The free cash or something terms, a I said to you earlier, I didn't even see those terms, so why do you expect a customer to go searching through your site, if the link you gave took me to a specific set of terms.

 

[vinylweatherman]

The terms that applied to the Xmas bonus was and still is
--------------------------------------------
All Free Cash Promotions

The FREE Cash Bonus mentioned in the promotional email will be given only to the first 200 players who initially received this email.*(1)

Some of our bonuses are given automatically, and others have to be requested. If you have not received your bonus automatically please send an email to [email protected].

Please note that:
In the interest of fair gaming, you must wager at least 25 (twenty five) times the FREE cash amount before making any cash outs.

Bets placed in the games Craps, Roulette (all sorts of Roulette), Blackjack (all sorts of blackjack), Video Poker (all sorts of Video Poker), Sic Bo, Poker Three and Baccarat does not fulfil the player's obligations with regard to the minimum wagering requirements.

The above mentioned restricted games CAN'T be played before fulfilling the wagering requirement or all winnings will be void.

Money won on restricted games before the completion of the bonus wagering requirements will not be available for withdrawal.

Provided that the /$/10 has been wagered in full, any balance over and above the original /$/10 will be considered winnings.*(2a)

A maximum winnings of /$/100 may be withdrawn.*(2b)

For full Casino Terms and Conditions please click here
--------------------------------------------------

The link to it is: Link Removed ( Old/Invalid)
in the Xmas promotion the link Link Removed ( Old/Invalid) was given.

note the difference at the end of the link #gop instead of #lb

Also common sense would say that a free Xmas promotion as absolutely nothing to do with the monthly deposit bonus and any player would recognize it and accept the email to have had a typo.

We are fair and we stick to our T&C saying we are not fair and honest because of an obvious wrongly formated anchor is going a little bit too far!!

PS: The T&C were updated today to remove the unpopular 25/35 WR for UK resident with accounts. Nothing else was added or changed.

1) This is not something that applied to the Xmas gift.
2) (a & b) - gives specifics for a free $10 chip, leaving a max cashout of 10x
It could be argued that since the specifics have to be adapted to apply in the general sense (as in striking out the "first 200" proviso for the Christmas gift), this term needs to be interpreted due to the fact this chip was $100 and not $10. If it was taken that the generality of a 10x max cashout applied, this means that for a $100 chip it would be $1000 of winnings.

Confusion is effected by trying to make a term for a specific promotion also to apply to a general case, so with each line the reader is jumping from the general to specific, and back again. This leaves the terms open to interpretation and debate, which is what happened here.
It would be better to have an index at the top of the terms page, itself providing inner links to the specific terms. These terms should specifically name the promotion, OR be written completely in general terms without reference to anything specific related to any single mailer (such as $10 and first 200 to reply).
Lastly, and ideally, the mailer should contain the FULL promotion specific terms, so there would be no need to use inner links other than to confirm general terms. It seems this has been done for future mailers, which is a result.
This would have never been an argument if this were a Microgaming Xmas gift though, there would be NO argument about max cashout (there being none), and EZBonus would show whether WR was complete or not.
There has never been a convincing reason given as to why MG can do this, yet not go bust, while Playtech and RTG simply cannot for fear of too much being won.
If I went into Vegas, cashed in my loyalty free chip on the last day, I bet I would not be stopped at the door for hitting a big win on it & told I had to give some of it back because I had won too much! All it does with online casinos is give the impression that casinos with restrictive max cashout rules & low weekly payout limits have issues with cashflow, which would worry any serious high roller, and many players of progressive games. It is one issue that puts MG ahead of the rest, as well as the MG "insurance fund" in case the worst should happen with an MG branded casino going bust.

 

[XXLClubCasino]

1) This is not something that applied to the Xmas gift.
2) (a & b) - gives specifics for a free $10 chip, leaving a max cashout of 10x
It could be argued that since the specifics have to be adapted to apply in the general sense (as in striking out the "first 200" proviso for the Christmas gift), this term needs to be interpreted due to the fact this chip was $100 and not $10. If it was taken that the generality of a 10x max cashout applied, this means that for a $100 chip it would be $1000 of winnings.

Confusion is effected by trying to make a term for a specific promotion also to apply to a general case, so with each line the reader is jumping from the general to specific, and back again. This leaves the terms open to interpretation and debate, which is what happened here.
It would be better to have an index at the top of the terms page, itself providing inner links to the specific terms. These terms should specifically name the promotion, OR be written completely in general terms without reference to anything specific related to any single mailer (such as $10 and first 200 to reply).
Lastly, and ideally, the mailer should contain the FULL promotion specific terms, so there would be no need to use inner links other than to confirm general terms. It seems this has been done for future mailers, which is a result.
This would have never been an argument if this were a Microgaming Xmas gift though, there would be NO argument about max cashout (there being none), and EZBonus would show whether WR was complete or not.
There has never been a convincing reason given as to why MG can do this, yet not go bust, while Playtech and RTG simply cannot for fear of too much being won.
If I went into Vegas, cashed in my loyalty free chip on the last day, I bet I would not be stopped at the door for hitting a big win on it & told I had to give some of it back because I had won too much! All it does with online casinos is give the impression that casinos with restrictive max cashout rules & low weekly payout limits have issues with cashflow, which would worry any serious high roller, and many players of progressive games. It is one issue that puts MG ahead of the rest, as well as the MG "insurance fund" in case the worst should happen with an MG branded casino going bust.

- All free chips have a max cash out of 100, not 10 times the amount of free chips. If you get 20 in free chips you still only can cashout 100. I'm not sure where the 10x free chips comes from.

- Playtech is developing a new bonus system which will take a lot of players and operators input into account. It is really needed but not available at present time so operators are left with the current system and try to do the best out of it. The current system leave a maximum of possibilities to the operators but unfortunately players do not receive an accurate feedback during play.

- All progressive jackpots are being paid out of the pool which growth with every players spin. There is absolutely zero risk to a playtech operator should a player hit the jackpot as the contribution to it was already paid in the jackpot pool.

- How many playtech casino went bankrupt? To my knowledge not a single one.

 

[vinylweatherman]

- All free chips have a max cash out of 100, not 10 times the amount of free chips. If you get 20 in free chips you still only can cashout 100. I'm not sure where the 10x free chips comes from.

- Playtech is developing a new bonus system which will take a lot of players and operators input into account. It is really needed but not available at present time so operators are left with the current system and try to do the best out of it. The current system leave a maximum of possibilities to the operators but unfortunately players do not receive an accurate feedback during play.

- All progressive jackpots are being paid out of the pool which growth with every players spin. There is absolutely zero risk to a playtech operator should a player hit the jackpot as the contribution to it was already paid in the jackpot pool.

- How many playtech casino went bankrupt? To my knowledge not a single one.

Action Online folded this February. The writing was on the wall at the time, however "Playtech fiddled while Rome burned", and contacted Action Online, who NEVER replied, yet Playtech simply gave them more time, until May, when it was so obvious they had folded that nearly everyone here at Casinomeister knew about it.

A more appropriate question would be to ask how many casinos went bust through NOT having a max cashout rule on bonuses. Playtech casinos (as well as RTG) say it is needed, but never specify why.
What if a player hits a progressive with a max cashout chip, they could win a MILLION, but be denied it because they were unlucky enough to be playing with a max cashout.
I recently looked at Fast Win, and a recent update has turned ALL BUT ONE of the slots into a progressive, making it almost impossible to play a non progressive slot.

Given the belt, braces, chastity belt and padlock approach of Playtech (sticky bonuses, huge WR, max cashouts down to 1x chip or less), it is surprising that ANY Playtech would go bust, however this is not the right way to stay in business. Far better would be "honest" bonuses, invariably less attention grabbing, but without built in disappointments such as max cash-in, disappointments that CANNOT be entirely avoided if players are obliged to play high variance games such as slots.
A few players here are wise to the statistical con-job that is the max cashout rule, and it has generated MANY complaints, with players being "lucky" with great wins, only to have it snached back because they won "at the wrong time".
One answer, of course, is for players to refuse such bonuses, but then the casino has lost it's main marketing tool. The other perk, comp points, is a pathetic 0.1% rebate in many places, even on slots with a 5% hold - even this mean offer is often further demeaned by further WR, max cashouts, etc.
The impression is that it is only bonuses that offer any chance of players winning on slots at least. At least with Blackjack and some VP games play without any bonus can give a decent win with a bit of luck.
Playtech slots never seem to pay out large wins nearly as often as MG, so play is usually a slow decline to zero, with a few minor upward peaks of 10 to 30 times bet - more than this is rare.

Playtech is a brand that I mostly avoid, recently only having played at FastWin, and probably not for much longer after recent changes to their T & C. When Playtech develop their new bonus system, they should rid us of max cashout bonuses altogether for existing players, and only have them for new player no-deposit offers.

 

[uungy]

Strong points!

The wierd thing is, XXLClub are prepared to give $500 back to someone who tried playing the system (refer to earlier thread) who had no terms to back the player up, however when someone comes with a qualified reason, at least understandable reason, they take no interest.

While again this is not an answer, and doesnt add any side, it just puts some weight anyway!

In regards to max cashouts, as vinylweatherman put it, its there to confuse the players, and should a big win be hit, the casinos take no intrest, and put it far out of a players sight. I never play casinos with max cashouts, even with free money, its more hassle then its worth, and I feel casinos do it to confuse players.

The kickback offer which XXL have, while they sound nice, again, there are wagering requirements, and max limits which never entice me to play. I like easy bonus systems with a reasonable amount of games allowed.

That is my opinion, but the max cashouts, like my case, is there to confuse a player, and especially when the wrong terms are given in the email and link in the email, if not why was that done?

 

[XXLClubCasino]

Strong points!
The wierd thing is, XXLClub are prepared to give $500 back to someone who tried playing the system (refer to earlier thread) who had no terms to back the player up, however when someone comes with a qualified reason, at least understandable reason, they take no interest.

This can't be compared as the player deposited his own $ and take a risk while in your case you had NOT to risk anything (except your time gambling) and could cash in the 100 for free. Also absolutely not comparable with respect to the net casino income; 500 versus -100!

In regards to max cashouts, as vinylweatherman put it, its there to confuse the players, and should a big win be hit, the casinos take no intrest, and put it far out of a players sight. I never play casinos with max cashouts, even with free money, its more hassle then its worth, and I feel casinos do it to confuse players.

I just can't understand this, if you know you can only cashout 100 and you don't have to risk any of your own money why would you not play it! Every one in the world would jump on the free occasion and try to make 100 out of nothing! Maybe it's just the limit that is too low for your taste and 100 does not mean much to you. Would you play the bonus if the max cashout was 1000,5000 or 10'000, i guess yes!

The kickback offer which XXL have, while they sound nice, again, there are wagering requirements, and max limits which never entice me to play. I like easy bonus systems with a reasonable amount of games allowed.

The kickbacks given highly depend upon your VIP level. VIP kickback bonuses have no max cashout and a human 12x bonus WR. Standard kickback given to players that deposit the minimum of 20 receive a kickback with a max cashout, doesn't this make sense to you?

That is my opinion, but the max cashouts, like my case, is there to confuse a player, and especially when the wrong terms are given in the email and link in the email, if not why was that done?

Again we do not want to confuse any one, it's not our purpose.

Honestly what would have change for you, knowing the max cash out to be 100 before you started playing, it would have change absolutely nothing! The only change is your disappointment after cashing in and learning about the max cashout on that bonus. I fully understand this and made a move to compensate this disappointment but you obviously value it more than the offered 150 in bonus (with no max cashout).

You should also not drag any unrelated facts in this case. Your different claims about playtech, microgaming, RTG have absolutely nothing to do in this thread. What matters here is the wrongly formatted anchor link within the free bonus given to you and whether or not the casino can be held responsible for it and if yes to which extend. The T&C where in place before, during and after the promotion and were not changed.

My position is that players with a minimum of common sense would/could understand the typo and follow the rules that apply to the all free no deposit chips given.

I think we should wait a couple of more input on the subject from other members and then decide in a common agreement on a resolution, or we can ask the meister!

 

[vinylweatherman]

Just get rid of max cashout rules for existing players altogether. This applies to ALL casinos.
The WR and other terms have not been an issue in this case - everything revolves around the max cashout.
If players "take the piss" by depositing a mere $20 to work the system, just don't give out the kickback.

These more complex rules only help "advantage players", who will make damn certain to extract maximum value within T & C.
If an advantage player "won too much" they would use the surplus to build a few comp points and cash in the exact maximum. They would have scoured the T & C with a microscope, and would have NEVER made the mistake of taking offers at face value. They will, of course, also try some of the tactics you believe uungy guilty of, continually arguing a case for further movement on your part on the compromise agreement (as an alternative to building comps). They would certainly have played, rather than refused, this bonus - most likely scouring the game exclusions for any games not mentioned that offer a chance to get a big head start - in fact, the ONLY way to have a fighting chance to win from a sticky bonus.
Until the software can control "undesirable" play, this will always happen, and ill written T & C will be taken apart by savvy players (it's their JOB, just as it's the casinos job to fool players with grand offers that are really in the casinos favour).

When Playtech produce this new bonus system, it should be SIMPLE, and enforced by the software such that a breach of bonus terms is IMPOSSIBLE. They should learn from the mistakes made by MG with EZBonus, simple, but did they ask operators what they really needed first?

 

[Pinababy69]

or we can ask the meister!

I had been going to suggest that very thing myself.

I have to totally agree that there is a world of difference between a deposit bonus, and a non-deposit one. The only relevant issue here is the link sent in the email. It led to the correct page, but the wrong spot on that page.

I agree that max cashouts are a sucky rule. But if the T&C's are on the website, then both parties should abide by them. Even seasoned gamblers get burned on occasion by not fully reading them...it doesn't change the fact that they are there. Work on getting them to change it, but it can't be retroactive.

 

[happygobrokey]

i still don't agree that the "right place" on the page was clear enough that it was applicable to the xmas promo. i know it says "all free cash promos" but does that mean that every free cash promo is limited to the first 200 claimants, and they are never told this in the email? and every free chip from $1 to $10k is maxed out at $100?

at any rate, the casino should be able to point a member to the proper place on their website to see the correct terms stated clearly and using the same language as the email offers. same page or not, the whole thing was made utterly too confusing and including "xmas" onto the page, a mere four letters, would have given a clear indication where to look for the xmas bonus terms. and putting the entire terms onto the email would just be giving the cutomer a time-stamped hard copy of their obligations, increasing the chance they'll read and abide to it. but then it also gives them ammo to hold the casino to anything contained therein. so we couldn't have that, now could we?

 

[uungy]

i still don't agree that the "right place" on the page was clear enough that it was applicable to the xmas promo. i know it says "all free cash promos" but does that mean that every free cash promo is limited to the first 200 claimants, and they are never told this in the email? and every free chip from $1 to $10k is maxed out at $100?

at any rate, the casino should be able to point a member to the proper place on their website to see the correct terms stated clearly and using the same language as the email offers. same page or not, the whole thing was made utterly too confusing and including "xmas" onto the page, a mere four letters, would have given a clear indication where to look for the xmas bonus terms. and putting the entire terms onto the email would just be giving the cutomer a time-stamped hard copy of their obligations, increasing the chance they'll read and abide to it. but then it also gives them ammo to hold the casino to anything contained therein. so we couldn't have that, now could we?

and a mere changing of the anchor doesnt seem too hard to do either!