Wierd situation?

[bigsmile]

Hi all. This is my first post. I'm not really sure if this is in the right place because I don't really have an official complaint per se. I just have an issue but it doesn't seem to fit nicely under any of the forum headers. I'm a bit nervous so please be gentle on this newb!

I have been playing online for a few months now. I am American, so I am limited by which casinos I can play at or like. I do like RTG as my favorite. However, I had a horrible experience with a group. I am not sure if I should say who since I launched a CDS complaint and then the complaint was resolved in my favor!
What happened is that this group accepted my fax forms and allowed me to play. However, as soon as I actually won they sent me an email stating that I had suspicious credit cards and they were voiding my winnings and sending back deposits only. Well, I contacted them and they called me a chargeback. This was not true and not even close to true. I argued and argued but they were not interested in a real conversation. They would just say stupid things. Finally I saw that I could complain to CDS and prove that I have never, ever charged back any credit card. Not EVER. CDS took the complaint and soon I was paid all of my winnings and proved that this was not true at all.

My problem is that this stupid group put me on some kind of "list". The list is like a warning to online casinos that Im a chargeback person. BUT IT NEVER HAPPENED. However, I still cant make deposits at RTG casinos. I really just want to play at club world right now but they said I was on this list and they have a system and that they cannot change it. So I am effectively being punished for something that I have never done. It really is frustrating for me. Is there anyone on this form that can help fix this or that can please tell me if there is a next step to undo this list thing? Goodness, I just want to play at this point but I really just want to play at clubworld where I don't have to worry about being cheated and filing complaints and stuff.

Thanks for any help guys! (and gals).

 

[Andy Walker]

Hi all. This is my first post. I'm not really sure if this is in the right place because I don't really have an official complaint per se. I just have an issue but it doesn't seem to fit nicely under any of the forum headers. I'm a bit nervous so please be gentle on this newb!

I have been playing online for a few months now. I am American, so I am limited by which casinos I can play at or like. I do like RTG as my favorite. However, I had a horrible experience with a group. I am not sure if I should say who since I launched a CDS complaint and then the complaint was resolved in my favor!
What happened is that this group accepted my fax forms and allowed me to play. However, as soon as I actually won they sent me an email stating that I had suspicious credit cards and they were voiding my winnings and sending back deposits only. Well, I contacted them and they called me a chargeback. This was not true and not even close to true. I argued and argued but they were not interested in a real conversation. They would just say stupid things. Finally I saw that I could complain to CDS and prove that I have never, ever charged back any credit card. Not EVER. CDS took the complaint and soon I was paid all of my winnings and proved that this was not true at all.

My problem is that this stupid group put me on some kind of "list". The list is like a warning to online casinos that Im a chargeback person. BUT IT NEVER HAPPENED. However, I still cant make deposits at RTG casinos. I really just want to play at club world right now but they said I was on this list and they have a system and that they cannot change it. So I am effectively being punished for something that I have never done. It really is frustrating for me. Is there anyone on this form that can help fix this or that can please tell me if there is a next step to undo this list thing? Goodness, I just want to play at this point but I really just want to play at clubworld where I don't have to worry about being cheated and filing complaints and stuff.

Thanks for any help guys! (and gals).

I am not going to question whether you or the casino was right but any business has the right to decline your deposits. If you are on a list then you have to accept it.

It's hard to believe a casino that wants your money after admitting they made a mistake would not do the business thing of accepting you back as a customer and recover what they lost.

 

[skiny]

I am not going to question whether you or the casino was right but any business has the right to decline your deposits. If you are on a list then you have to accept it.

It's hard to believe a casino that wants your money after admitting they made a mistake would not do the business thing of accepting you back as a customer and recover what they lost.

Any casino has the right not to accept your deposits but casinos don't have the right to put you on a blacklist list of fraudulent players under false pretenses.

To me the most surprising part of this story is that CDS was helpful. I always thought that CDS form was directly linked to a recycle bin on someone's Windows 95 desktop.

 

[Nifty29]

Can we please see the official full decision by CDS. You state the casino....it makes no difference. In fact, it might help.

We need to know EXACTLY why CDS found in your favour.

 

[Andy Walker]

Any casino has the right not to accept your deposits but casinos don't have the right to put you on a blacklist list of fraudulent players under false pretenses.

To me the most surprising part of this story is that CDS was helpful. I always thought that CDS form was directly linked to a recycle bin on someone's Windows 95 desktop.

Even if the findings by the CDS were found in the OP’s favour there is nothing to stop this practice. You can’t argue that the OP is being refused from using an essential service.

A blacklist from using essential services like electricity, gas, rental and water because of non-payment, issues with payments, issues with overcharging from the supplier, disagreements with bill levels etc. could be challenged because these are considered basic human rights.

Not being able to gamble would be laughed out of court IMO.

 

[chayton]

Well being labelled a chargebacker (is that a word?) effectively will end your gambling online. If you are on this 'list' and you're innocent, you'd think there's something that could be done.

I'm thinking that if you send a PM to the ClubWorld rep and lay it out for them with any evidence that you have that CDS found in your favor and go from there. Basically any casino has the right to refuse to have you as a customer, so if they say no there's not much you can do about it.

 

[Nifty29]

Even if the findings by the CDS were found in the OP’s favour there is nothing to stop this practice. You can’t argue that the OP is being refused from using an essential service.

A blacklist from using essential services like electricity, gas, rental and water because of non-payment, issues with payments, issues with overcharging from the supplier, disagreements with bill levels etc. could be challenged because these are considered basic human rights.

Not being able to gamble would be laughed out of court IMO.

If only we had an expert on UK Law on the forums......

Well being labelled a chargebacker (is that a word?) effectively will end your gambling online. If you are on this 'list' and you're innocent, you'd think there's something that could be done.

I'm thinking that if you send a PM to the ClubWorld rep and lay it out for them with any evidence that you have that CDS found in your favor and go from there. Basically any casino has the right to refuse to have you as a customer, so if they say no there's not much you can do about it.

Well it's like a linebacker except....well it's not

What we need to know is WHY CDS found in their favour. It's possible they did not deal with the chargeback issue at all, but rather ruled for the player for other reasons. Who knows? It's why the OP should provide the precise decision from CDS.

It's also possible that the OP did a chargeback AFTER the dispute was settled. Just saying.

 

[chuchu59]

Hi all. This is my first post. I'm not really sure if this is in the right place because I don't really have an official complaint per se. I just have an issue but it doesn't seem to fit nicely under any of the forum headers. I'm a bit nervous so please be gentle on this newb!

I have been playing online for a few months now. I am American, so I am limited by which casinos I can play at or like. I do like RTG as my favorite. However, I had a horrible experience with a group. I am not sure if I should say who since I launched a CDS complaint and then the complaint was resolved in my favor!
What happened is that this group accepted my fax forms and allowed me to play. However, as soon as I actually won they sent me an email stating that I had suspicious credit cards and they were voiding my winnings and sending back deposits only. Well, I contacted them and they called me a chargeback. This was not true and not even close to true. I argued and argued but they were not interested in a real conversation. They would just say stupid things. Finally I saw that I could complain to CDS and prove that I have never, ever charged back any credit card. Not EVER. CDS took the complaint and soon I was paid all of my winnings and proved that this was not true at all.

My problem is that this stupid group put me on some kind of "list". The list is like a warning to online casinos that Im a chargeback person. BUT IT NEVER HAPPENED. However, I still cant make deposits at RTG casinos. I really just want to play at club world right now but they said I was on this list and they have a system and that they cannot change it. So I am effectively being punished for something that I have never done. It really is frustrating for me. Is there anyone on this form that can help fix this or that can please tell me if there is a next step to undo this list thing? Goodness, I just want to play at this point but I really just want to play at clubworld where I don't have to worry about being cheated and filing complaints and stuff.

Thanks for any help guys! (and gals).

Hi bigsmile,

Welcome to the forum. Nice username.

The fact that CDS ruled in your favour speaks volumes as in the past they used to side with the casino and places like Casinomeister and Gambling Grumbles are far more effective in getting players back their rightful winnings.

You may not have actually made a chargeback but I understand that the mere threat of it is sufficient to place you on a blacklist. So did you ever mention such a thing such as saying you will recover your deposits if they don't pay. If you don't get to the bottom of this, as an American this could effectively end your gaming experience as RTG is probably the only software to embraces US players though the Rival brand is starting to accept USA players again from what I hear.

 

[skiny]

Can we please see the official full decision by CDS. You state the casino....it makes no difference. In fact, it might help.

We need to know EXACTLY why CDS found in your favour.

Well, it would be nice to know why CDS found in the OP's favour but like you said, it may have nothing to do with the chargeback accusation.

There's obviously no way for anyone here to know if this person charged back any deposits but Andy's comment that if you're on this list you just have to accept it is hardly fair. If a person hasn't charged back any deposits they shouldn't have to just accept being blacklisted for doing so.

Where exactly is this list? Is it stored somewhere or is it just updated and passed around like a chain letter?

Add 10 names to this list and mail it to 10 people on or you will have bad luck for the next 10 years!

 

[jetset]

I agree that we need to see the CDS decision so that we have all the facts.

Club World is in my experience one of the few decent groups using RTG software, and an approach through them to RTG (with all the facts) might yield results, as I believe that any blacklist (admitted or not) would probably be centralised at the software provider.

 

[KasinoKing]

Where exactly is this list? Is it stored somewhere or is it just updated and passed around like a chain letter?

Add 10 names to this list and mail it to 10 people on or you will have bad luck for the next 10 years!

As I understand it, pretty much ALL software suppliers hold an electronic central database of ALL registered players across their whole network which all casinos in their network have access to.
This makes an awful lot of sense from an anti-fraud point of view, as it helps to prevent serial fraudsters from just hopping from one casino to the next trying to con them in one way or another. The downside is when innocent players get caught in the net, which seems to be the case here.

If these databases were regulated by law somewhere, one would hope that the effected players would have some right to appeal - but in the case of online casinos, it seems there is very little they can do.

In this particular case I would agree with those who suggested above, to contact Club World or another reputable RTG operator and see if there is anything they can do to help.

Failing that, it looks like the only option is a change of software... which might not be a bad thing since it is RTG we are talking about...

KK

 

[bigsmile]

OK, thank you all for your advice. Let me try to answer all the questions and if I did not then please let me know and I will answer better.

Firstly, I am very happy with CDS. They were prompt, communicative and obviously helpful. There was mention on the site about privacy and such. At this point until I hear from someone with more knowledge or authority I will not say the casino group because I think I agreed not to by filing a cds dispute, correct? I can tell you that I see they are on the rogue list here though they used to be on accredited list it says.

Secondly, I am asked by "nifty" for details of WHY cds ruled in my favor. Well, they don't come out and say it. The obvious answer is because I have never ever had any chargeback. But here is the exact response that I received.

(Dispute Team) [Payment Pending] ** SUPRESSED FROM MEMBER **

Dear Mr. xxxxxxxxxx,

After some negotiation with the Operator we resolved that they will refund you the amount of winnings that had been confiscated previously.

Please advise as soon as possible when you have received your funds so we can consider this matter closed.

That is all.

To answer another question, NO. I have never ever threatened a chargeback (didn't even know what it was before this mess) or did a chargeback before, during or after. As a matter of fact the casino group gave me very vague and different reasons via email. It was on the phone and live chat where this "chargeback" rubbish started. Here are the email quotes from the casino:

Our third party processor has picked up negative activity attached to your card, therefore we have voided your winnings in xxxxxxxxxxx casino and closed your accounts for future play

Your account has been picked up by a third party processor, who has an issue attached to your account. On the basis that we knew this as trusted information, your deposits have been refunded and your account has been closed for future play.

The silly part of all this is that I have a prepaid card that I just got and have used for NOTHING other than online play. Never purchased anything else so it has a very short history and was easy to go back and show any transaction. The CDS resolution came in pretty fast and I am certain that the casino group was just trying to not pay my winnings. That is all it was. I am almost sure of it. I cannot fathom what else could be at issue with a prepaid card. I don't even know if you CAN charge back pre paid cards? Regardless, that's nothing that I am interested in anyways.

I just want a chance to play at clubworld again. I have made 2 successful deposits in the past. I liked the casino and never had any issue at all. I have approved faxback form and documents so that is all clear. It was after this other casino's rubbish and them falsely putting me on some list that my depositing issues started.

Someone mentioned a pm to someone important from club world? is that on this forum? Please give me information on how to do that? I would like to try that please.

Again, thank you so very much for all of the responses. I appreciate the help, I really do.

 

[chuchu59]

OK, thank you all for your advice. Let me try to answer all the questions and if I did not then please let me know and I will answer better.

Firstly, I am very happy with CDS. They were prompt, communicative and obviously helpful. There was mention on the site about privacy and such. At this point until I hear from someone with more knowledge or authority I will not say the casino group because I think I agreed not to by filing a cds dispute, correct? I can tell you that I see they are on the rogue list here though they used to be on accredited list it says.

Secondly, I am asked by "nifty" for details of WHY cds ruled in my favor. Well, they don't come out and say it. The obvious answer is because I have never ever had any chargeback. But here is the exact response that I received.



That is all.

To answer another question, NO. I have never ever threatened a chargeback (didn't even know what it was before this mess) or did a chargeback before, during or after. As a matter of fact the casino group gave me very vague and different reasons via email. It was on the phone and live chat where this "chargeback" rubbish started. Here are the email quotes from the casino:





The silly part of all this is that I have a prepaid card that I just got and have used for NOTHING other than online play. Never purchased anything else so it has a very short history and was easy to go back and show any transaction. The CDS resolution came in pretty fast and I am certain that the casino group was just trying to not pay my winnings. That is all it was. I am almost sure of it. I cannot fathom what else could be at issue with a prepaid card. I don't even know if you CAN charge back pre paid cards? Regardless, that's nothing that I am interested in anyways.

I just want a chance to play at clubworld again. I have made 2 successful deposits in the past. I liked the casino and never had any issue at all. I have approved faxback form and documents so that is all clear. It was after this other casino's rubbish and them falsely putting me on some list that my depositing issues started.

Someone mentioned a pm to someone important from club world? is that on this forum? Please give me information on how to do that? I would like to try that please.

Again, thank you so very much for all of the responses. I appreciate the help, I really do.

Let's see what we can do. You have only been playing online for several months and made 2 successful deposits at Club World. The chargeback, negative activity or whatever it was must have been conducted after those 2 successful deposits till the time the casino in question denied your winnings. That narrows the time span. The next thing to sort out is what deposit methods you had used during that period. Dig out the card statements and check if there is anything irregular. Hope this helps.

 

[bsilva028]

OK, thank you all for your advice. Let me try to answer all the questions and if I did not then please let me know and I will answer better.

Firstly, I am very happy with CDS. They were prompt, communicative and obviously helpful. There was mention on the site about privacy and such. At this point until I hear from someone with more knowledge or authority I will not say the casino group because I think I agreed not to by filing a cds dispute, correct? I can tell you that I see they are on the rogue list here though they used to be on accredited list it says.

Secondly, I am asked by "nifty" for details of WHY cds ruled in my favor. Well, they don't come out and say it. The obvious answer is because I have never ever had any chargeback. But here is the exact response that I received.



That is all.

To answer another question, NO. I have never ever threatened a chargeback (didn't even know what it was before this mess) or did a chargeback before, during or after. As a matter of fact the casino group gave me very vague and different reasons via email. It was on the phone and live chat where this "chargeback" rubbish started. Here are the email quotes from the casino:





The silly part of all this is that I have a prepaid card that I just got and have used for NOTHING other than online play. Never purchased anything else so it has a very short history and was easy to go back and show any transaction. The CDS resolution came in pretty fast and I am certain that the casino group was just trying to not pay my winnings. That is all it was. I am almost sure of it. I cannot fathom what else could be at issue with a prepaid card. I don't even know if you CAN charge back pre paid cards? Regardless, that's nothing that I am interested in anyways.

I just want a chance to play at clubworld again. I have made 2 successful deposits in the past. I liked the casino and never had any issue at all. I have approved faxback form and documents so that is all clear. It was after this other casino's rubbish and them falsely putting me on some list that my depositing issues started.

Someone mentioned a pm to someone important from club world? is that on this forum? Please give me information on how to do that? I would like to try that please.

Again, thank you so very much for all of the responses. I appreciate the help, I really do.

let me see
by what you have said, you played in club world without problems

you tried out another casino, had that problems, and now you cant deposite neither in that casino neither in club world, however the problem was in the "other" casino?

to check if the other casino its acredited and have a rep on the forum, see it here: https://www.casinomeister.com/casino-software/rtg/
to contact the club world rep. go here, https://www.casinomeister.com/forums/members/ and "send private message" explaining

 

[skiny]

OK, thank you all for your advice. Let me try to answer all the questions and if I did not then please let me know and I will answer better.

Firstly, I am very happy with CDS. They were prompt, communicative and obviously helpful.

I honestly had no idea the CDS really helped anyone. I thought 80% of the casino names in that drop down box weren't even really casinos. Don't get me wrong, if the CDS is going to start being helpful that's a good thing. I had an issue with a rogue casino when I first started gambling online and my complaint just seemed to go off into the ether but that was many years ago. I dealt with it myself.

Our third party processor has picked up negative activity attached to your card, therefore we have voided your winnings in xxxxxxxxxxx casino and closed your accounts for future play

Seems a little vague to me. All the activities on my credit cards are negative. Same goes for my bank account.

I just want a chance to play at clubworld again. I have made 2 successful deposits in the past. I liked the casino and never had any issue at all. I have approved faxback form and documents so that is all clear. It was after this other casino's rubbish and them falsely putting me on some list that my depositing issues started.

Someone mentioned a pm to someone important from club world? is that on this forum? Please give me information on how to do that? I would like to try that please.

Again, thank you so very much for all of the responses. I appreciate the help, I really do.

this is the link to the CW rep. If anyone can straighten it out, I guess it's him.

 

[KasinoKing]

to check if the other casino its accredited and have a rep on the forum, see it here: https://www.casinomeister.com/casino-software/rtg/

He already said the "Other casino" is on the rogue list, but used to be accredited:

I can tell you that I see they are on the rogue list here though they used to be on accredited list it says.

I would think that narrows it down to one of the Rushmore Group of casinos, as they are the only RTG ones I can think of off the top of my head, that had such a dramatic fall from grace.

KK

 

[MisterBJ]

From my understanding. Most of the casinos are using the same standard company to detect fraud. Like this one

You do not have permission to view link Log in or register now.

Once your name is entered into it. It will appear at all casinos who subscribes to it. Youur credit card # is entered, also along with email addresses.

The problem is, there is no way of seeing a report on who reported you, or a way to appeal. Some US facing casinos are losing out on businesses because they restrict someone because of this database.
A better solution would be to allow Western Union deposits and allow that player a chance to prove if he/she is worthy of your services.

This is part of the reason deposits are trying up at some US facing casinos. They restrict potential players. Due to a semi-flawed databases.

 

[bsilva028]

He already said the "Other casino" is on the rogue list, but used to be accredited:

I would think that narrows it down to one of the Rushmore Group of casinos, as they are the only RTG ones I can think of off the top of my head, that had such a dramatic fall from grace.

KK

forgot to read that part, thanks

 

[dunover]

The legal part as far as the UK goes is quite simple - should ANY Credit Ref Agency hold false or inaccurate information on you, they must correct it or add a note to your file when you point it out to them in writing and explain the discrepancy. People can and often have received damages where the false information has caused distress, inconvenience or associated loss. It is estimated 33% of files on UK citizens contain errors. Now if such a file exists on a casino database, it would depend on the jurisdiction it is under. Then a demonstrable loss is harder to prove as if it stopped you playing, then you can't by definition have lost anything except a potential piece of 'enjoyment'. In the OP's case, there is a clear case of loss caused by inaccurate information supplied (although he was refunded eventually so void in his particular case). Had he not been refunded, then the question remains how and from whom would he claim the winnings after his deposits only were refunded?

He was fortunate IMO as there was obviously a system of recourse open to him where he is, but this would be unlikely in most other cases or countries. I even suspect the casino made the whole excuse up to avoid paying, and he called their bluff by unexpectedly challenging the decision using the correct and provable procedure(s).

There is a saying 'it's hard to prove a negative' - this is where the player is left usually in cases such as this.

 

[naththo]

Deleted.
Edit: Not worth posting.

 

[vinylweatherman]

The legal part as far as the UK goes is quite simple - should ANY Credit Ref Agency hold false or inaccurate information on you, they must correct it or add a note to your file when you point it out to them in writing and explain the discrepancy. People can and often have received damages where the false information has caused distress, inconvenience or associated loss. It is estimated 33% of files on UK citizens contain errors. Now if such a file exists on a casino database, it would depend on the jurisdiction it is under. Then a demonstrable loss is harder to prove as if it stopped you playing, then you can't by definition have lost anything except a potential piece of 'enjoyment'. In the OP's case, there is a clear case of loss caused by inaccurate information supplied (although he was refunded eventually so void in his particular case). Had he not been refunded, then the question remains how and from whom would he claim the winnings after his deposits only were refunded?

He was fortunate IMO as there was obviously a system of recourse open to him where he is, but this would be unlikely in most other cases or countries. I even suspect the casino made the whole excuse up to avoid paying, and he called their bluff by unexpectedly challenging the decision using the correct and provable procedure(s).

There is a saying 'it's hard to prove a negative' - this is where the player is left usually in cases such as this.

There is also the issue of defamation, even if no actual quantifiable loss has taken place. Defamation takes place when an unrelated party uses erroneous information in making a negative decision on a person, such as denying a service that would otherwise be available to them had the defamation not taken place. Unfortunately, it would be a case of suing for defamation, rather than exercising a legal right. As this is a US player, the most likely jurisdiction to hear the case would be the US. If it is Iovation, they are a US based company, even though they have regional offices elsewhere.

It's a difficult case, as it would be a US citizen having to present evidence that the defamation prevented them from taking part in an activity that is widely considered illegal in the US. Preventing someone from breaking the law is hardly going to be "damaging" to them in the legal sense, if anything, it could be argued to be of benefit.

Suing the casino for forwarding the information is even harder, as most likely they are based in Costa Rica or Curacao, where what they have done may not even be covered by law.

The CDS response is too vague to interpret as a declaration that the complainant never charged back, nor threatened to. It may be based on the casino having accepted the bets whilst the player was losing despite having all the information to hand, and then only deciding to act on it when they won.

In the case of US players, it sometimes turns out it's their bank that has "charged back" a transaction due to discovering it is illegal under UIGEA. This could have a knock on effect whereby a casino unrelated to this incident gets hit by a chargeback, makes the report to the central database, which then causes all casinos using it to be wary of the player.

Even though you cannot make a charge back from a pre paid card, or indeed an eWallet like Neteller, if they were funded by a credit card that accepted chargebacks, the deposit to Neteller or the pre paid card could be charged back, and then this would be claimed back from the merchant. Neteller certainly does this where a credit card funds Neteller, Neteller funds a casino, then the deposit to Neteller gets charged back. It's why casinos sometimes quiz players on how they funded their Neteller account, even asking for proof such as a screenshot of the funding.

 

[Nifty29]

Dunover....the problem will be that this "list" will not constitute a credit reference agency, primarily because you're not applying for credit and the information held is not used in any way to provide credit services, but also because it probably exists only in cyberspace and, if attached to the processor, will probably be in China or some clapped out country with few regulatory requirements.

You're right in saying there is no loss anyway, so it's a moot point I guess.

As for Rumpole's brief regarding defamation....well nobody is suing for defamation, and to suggest that the OP could or should is just plain silly. According to what the OP provided, the CASINO merely stated that there was an "issue" with his card at the processor level, and that "negative activity" had been associated with that card. Unlike others, I am not a legal expert, however I fail to see how these statements are defamatory. At no stage did they accuse the OP of I initiating chargebacks, or accuse them of anything untoward.

Given the database is not freely available to anyone other than RTG licensees, and relates exclusively to gambling at RTG casinos, I would think that the chances of successfully suing are pretty much nil. If it stopped you getting a home loan etc...perhaps.

Oh, and WTH has Neteller got to do with anything? Seriously. The OP is from the US for goodness sake. I worry about you sometimes vinyl.

 

[LaurieJim]

He already said the "Other casino" is on the rogue list, but used to be accredited:

I would think that narrows it down to one of the Rushmore Group of casinos, as they are the only RTG ones I can think of off the top of my head, that had such a dramatic fall from grace.

KK

That was the first casino I thought of as well !

Have you thought about sending Tom an email or sending him a pm here on CM asking him to assist you about your player status at CW ?


Laurie

 

[skiny]

The first thing I would do is locate this negative activity. If you've only ever used the one prepaid card it shouldn't be all that difficult.

If you can't find anything, offer CW a look at your statements. If you can clear your name I don't see why they wouldn't let you play.

 

[P.V.]

IGaming PII

There's many laws within the U.S. that would protect this player but it's not a licensed U.S. site.

The Privacy Act of 1974 says:

Maintain accuracy and completeness of the data.

Allow individuals to access data pertaining to them, request correction of wrong or incomplete data, and make an appeal for denials of requests for access and correction.

Violations of the Privacy Act can result in civil and criminal liability.

Then there's this, so the OP would simply ask where is this information is coming from.

The Fair Information Practices:

There must be no personal data record-keeping systems whose very existence is secret.

There must be a way for an individual to correct information in his or her records.

An individual should have the right: (a) to obtain from a data controller, or otherwise, confirmation of whether or not the data controller has data relating to him; (b) to have communicated to him, data relating to him within a reasonable time; at a charge, if any, that is not excessive; in a reasonable manner; and in a form that is readily intelligible to him; (c) to be given reasons if a request made under subparagraphs (a) and (b) is denied, and to be able to challenge such denial; and (d) to challenge data relating to him and, if the challenge is successful, to have the data erased, rectified, completed, or amended.

So for the OP if you can find out if this is coming from a U.S. database you could probably get things cleared up easily.

 

[naththo]

Im sorry to hear you had so much trouble.

Very but, please let me point this out:

This story does not make sense at all. Vinylweatherman is right, the story is far too vague from you and the CDS.

Can the prepaid card charge back, I saw someone said its possible.

I assumed you have sent sufficient document to cover you who you are in identity verification they accepted somehow.

But chargeback they accused you of automatically puts you on black list. Thats unfortunate. There no can do about. They did return your deposit at least. They closed your account permanently. You should jump off RTG and find somewhere where you can/able to play.

I am so confused why one said Club World, then another post said it is not the Club World, the one you said is on rogue list that used to be accredited. Someone said Rushmore group. Okay well, I don't get it still. Can you please answer clearly which casino did you go to. Why won't you be able to reveal who? Is that because of CDS or what?

Have you been able to check with your prepaid card online and check the transaction thoroughly, have a good talk with live chat help to find out what exactly really going on? They will have answer straight away. Like Neteller does. They did answer straight out to me its Betfred problem when I could not deposit with Neteller. I am sure they will answer to you straight away.

Why didn't you PAB first place before moving up to CDS? If you did PAB it would help Casinomeister to find out what, why, when, where. Then they could either answer its your problem or the casino problem. If its casino problem they could possibly move to a blacklist. But if that casino is on rogue list then, well, you know what, there is no can do about for some of rogue casino. But very few rep are still around for those rogue casino who are the one still deal with to catch up pay all the winning to those people who previously play in that casino. But again, if there is no rep for one you went to, then there is no can do about. If you are still in doubt with PAB or you cannot PAB and there is no can do in the list, then you can move onto CDS next.

I think it is very clear that if you are so unsure, you need to ask for advice before you jump on bandwagon to go onto next step like PAB or CDS whatever that is. You do not have to post here publicly if you don't feel comfortable, you can post to one of PAB in private message for a piece of advice but remember Moderator are very busy although they will answer back to you as soon as they can.

Anything else am I missing in this list of points?

Nathan.

 

[Fiona5522]

I am in the US and I am curious what prepaid card you used or use. I have tried lots of the prepaid cards here available to us in the U.S and most of them DO NOT allow transactions outside the US, which is useless to us because most of the Casino Processors are processed outside the US, causing the transaction to be declined, Please can you tell me what card it is, Green dot, MoneyPak, Net Spend, Ready Debit, Achieve etc....
Thanks
Fiona

 

[chuchu59]

The whole process of placing players on a blacklist lacks transparency. I would not completely rule out the possibility of the casino in question fabricating an allegation of 'chargeback' or 'threatened chargeback' so that it doesn't need to pay out. If casinos merely need to inform RTG that a player has made a chargeback without showing solid evidence then that is a distinct possibility and more so if the casino is Rushmore who will use any means to not pay out. The OP did not name and shame the casino and does not seem to be coercing the casino to pay out. The issue evolves around a chargeback yet CDS ruled in the OP's favour so they must had some doubts on the 'chargeback' issue.

@Bigsmile, do you care to tell us how much was involved in the complaint that CDS ruled in your favour? If it was quite substantial then it is possible that a rogue outfit could simply make use of a loose system to avoid paying out.

I know its pure speculation but when a player is sure no chargebacks had been made anything is possible.

 

[vinylweatherman]

There's many laws within the U.S. that would protect this player but it's not a licensed U.S. site.

The Privacy Act of 1974 says:

Maintain accuracy and completeness of the data.

Allow individuals to access data pertaining to them, request correction of wrong or incomplete data, and make an appeal for denials of requests for access and correction.

Violations of the Privacy Act can result in civil and criminal liability.

Then there's this, so the OP would simply ask where is this information is coming from.

The Fair Information Practices:

There must be no personal data record-keeping systems whose very existence is secret.

There must be a way for an individual to correct information in his or her records.

An individual should have the right: (a) to obtain from a data controller, or otherwise, confirmation of whether or not the data controller has data relating to him; (b) to have communicated to him, data relating to him within a reasonable time; at a charge, if any, that is not excessive; in a reasonable manner; and in a form that is readily intelligible to him; (c) to be given reasons if a request made under subparagraphs (a) and (b) is denied, and to be able to challenge such denial; and (d) to challenge data relating to him and, if the challenge is successful, to have the data erased, rectified, completed, or amended.

So for the OP if you can find out if this is coming from a U.S. database you could probably get things cleared up easily.

This is similar to laws in the UK and much of the EU. There are plenty of secret databases of personal information within this industry, and it's one thing that regulation will force out into the open.

Defamation does not have to relate to anything "essential" as opposed to a "luxury", it's all about someone's reputation among others. Many celebrities sue for defamation, even though the story published does not deny them "essential" services, nor stop them from making a living. Often, it's about protecting the output from the "spin machine" that manipulates the public perception of said celebrity. The public perception about the OP is that he has done something "dodgy" with an RTG casino, but managed to persuade CDS to rule in their favour. This allegation has then been passed on to the third party of Club World, who have used it to judge the OP negatively. This is defamation.

Had this database belonged to RTG, I would have not expected CDS to rule in the players' favour. More likely, it belongs to one of these dodgy processors who work around UIGEA, and it just happens that Club World use either the same processor, or one that shares information with the other that has this blacklist.

Locating the blacklist is probably a case of tracking down the processors used by the offending casino when processing deposits from the card in question. Some of these processors are themselves getting up to some serious "negative activity", and US players have been complaining for some time about "skimming", double charging, and even random charges not related to any casino deposit after having used a card at a casino.

 

[Nifty29]

This is similar to laws in the UK and much of the EU. There are plenty of secret databases of personal information within this industry, and it's one thing that regulation will force out into the open.

Defamation does not have to relate to anything "essential" as opposed to a "luxury", it's all about someone's reputation among others. Many celebrities sue for defamation, even though the story published does not deny them "essential" services, nor stop them from making a living. Often, it's about protecting the output from the "spin machine" that manipulates the public perception of said celebrity. The public perception about the OP is that he has done something "dodgy" with an RTG casino, but managed to persuade CDS to rule in their favour. This allegation has then been passed on to the third party of Club World, who have used it to judge the OP negatively. This is defamation.

Had this database belonged to RTG, I would have not expected CDS to rule in the players' favour. More likely, it belongs to one of these dodgy processors who work around UIGEA, and it just happens that Club World use either the same processor, or one that shares information with the other that has this blacklist.

Locating the blacklist is probably a case of tracking down the processors used by the offending casino when processing deposits from the card in question. Some of these processors are themselves getting up to some serious "negative activity", and US players have been complaining for some time about "skimming", double charging, and even random charges not related to any casino deposit after having used a card at a casino.

Oh OK. I apologize.

I defer to your legal experience, training and knowledge in the area of defamation and libel....the OP CAN sue the processor and casino for everything they have.



What has processor skimming etc got to do with this issue?? FFS.

 

[MisterBJ]

If any casino of any software brand is connected to this central database. It won't matter if he left RTG brand or not. From US stand point, Betonsoft, Topgaming, Rival, and some RTG uses the same or similar system. So if Grande Vegas, as an example puts you in database. Then what ever Rival casino that is subscripted to it. Will also noticed your info in it.

I wouldn't doubt if some casinos just make up 'Your name appeared in a negative database', to avoid playing out large sums. The casino software should lock your account upon registeration and not after the withdrawal process.

Online gaming here in America with US facing casinos can be tricky. No one should be surprised if this was indeed Rushmore pulling this stunt on this OP. And they say they changed!!!

 

[dunover]

Dunover....the problem will be that this "list" will not constitute a credit reference agency, primarily because you're not applying for credit and the information held is not used in any way to provide credit services, but also because it probably exists only in cyberspace and, if attached to the processor, will probably be in China or some clapped out country with few regulatory requirements.

You're right in saying there is no loss anyway, so it's a moot point I guess.

As for Rumpole's brief regarding defamation....well nobody is suing for defamation, and to suggest that the OP could or should is just plain silly. According to what the OP provided, the CASINO merely stated that there was an "issue" with his card at the processor level, and that "negative activity" had been associated with that card. Unlike others, I am not a legal expert, however I fail to see how these statements are defamatory. At no stage did they accuse the OP of I initiating chargebacks, or accuse them of anything untoward.

Given the database is not freely available to anyone other than RTG licensees, and relates exclusively to gambling at RTG casinos, I would think that the chances of successfully suing are pretty much nil. If it stopped you getting a home loan etc...perhaps.

Oh, and WTH has Neteller got to do with anything? Seriously. The OP is from the US for goodness sake. I worry about you sometimes vinyl.

LMAO......

Seriously I was alluding to the fact that while a CRA has legal accountability for the information it holds and the veracity of such, these 'database' providers do not, as you say probably because they are based in Ulan Bator or Kyrgyzstan or somewhere similar. Because of this fact they can always be used as an excuse for non-payment whether the casino in question is subscribed to their services or not. Without transparency and rights to see the information they hold, the player is at a serious disadvantage.

 

[skiny]

To be honest the whole thing seems a little weird to me. Whether you charge back a deposit or threaten to charge back a deposit, some evidence of this should be required to blacklist a player. I'm still not entirely sure who stores this list but it would be pretty irresponsible to simply take names from whoever sends them without any kind of proof. Of course we know RTG isn't exactly responsible since it has more rogue licensees than it has reputable ones but I don't think any casino wants to bar honest players just because some other casino didn't feel like paying them. If this list is generated though hearsay any reputable casino shouldn't be following it anyway. It would be a little unnerving to know that reputable casinos were taking the word of rogue casinos at face value to make their decisions.

Personally, I would like to hear from some of the RTG casino reps. If RTG casinos are following this list someone must know who stores it and whether or not the names on it are verified. They would also know if it's possible to have your name removed from the list.

Has the OP even asked any of the reputable casinos if it's possible to clear his name?

 

[chuchu59]

RTG casino reps have been less active in the forum recently. Besides, I doubt whether they will disclose how the blacklisting process works. Actually, we could include this issue into the wish list for Bryan to discuss with RTG when they next meet.

 

[Nifty29]

To be honest the whole thing seems a little weird to me. Whether you charge back a deposit or threaten to charge back a deposit, some evidence of this should be required to blacklist a player. I'm still not entirely sure who stores this list but it would be pretty irresponsible to simply take names from whoever sends them without any kind of proof. Of course we know RTG isn't exactly responsible since it has more rogue licensees than it has reputable ones but I don't think any casino wants to bar honest players just because some other casino didn't feel like paying them. If this list is generated though hearsay any reputable casino shouldn't be following it anyway. It would be a little unnerving to know that reputable casinos were taking the word of rogue casinos at face value to make their decisions.

Personally, I would like to hear from some of the RTG casino reps. If RTG casinos are following this list someone must know who stores it and whether or not the names on it are verified. They would also know if it's possible to have your name removed from the list.

Has the OP even asked any of the reputable casinos if it's possible to clear his name?

Yes, I would have to agree with that skiny.

I would ask CWC if they could find out from the "list manager" (there would have to be one of sorts) about the exact nature of the blacklisting of the OP. Surely they could find out where and when the alleged chargeback was initiated.

I'm not sure if threatening chargebacks should be a sufficient reason to blacklist....any rogue could make any old crap up and you're screwed. If written/irrefutable evidence that a CB was done is provided to the list manager, and it is available for other parties to access if required, then I don't have a problem with it. In fact, these kinds of lists, if done ethically and professionally, are vital to prevent fraud.

The only thing that concerns me is that Rushmore isn't known for denying winnings Willy nilly....their MO is taking 6 months to pay, not making up reasons to confiscate. Its actually very unlike them.

 

[skiny]

RTG casino reps have been less active in the forum recently. Besides, I doubt whether they will disclose how the blacklisting process works. Actually, we could include this issue into the wish list for Bryan to discuss with RTG when they next meet.

You wouldn't have to know how the process works to know if the names have to be verified or whether or not you can have your name removed from it. It's no different than my opinion about being accused of fraud. You can be told why you're being accused without being told exactly how they came to that conclusion.

I agree with Nifty that a list like this would be beneficial to casinos but only if there was a strict criteria for having names added to it. If people were added to the list out of spite all it would do is take business away from other casinos needlessly.

 

[bigsmile]

I see that clubworld is leaving the forum? Tom is his name but he left clubworld so I am not sure whom to contact. Im not even sure if that means there are issues at clubworld or it is dissolving or something? It is just so hard to find an honest place to play as an American.

I see there were so many questions on this thread and much of it is just people guessing at things that don't seem to make sense to me. The total amount was for a bit over 7000$. CDS ruled in my favor and while they didn't give me a specific reason it seems obvious that it is because I have no chargebacks ever. A few of you already figured out it was rushmore group.

If it helps at all I never had any issue depositing at any casino including clubworld until the day after I made a withdraw from rushmore. The next day I was on some list. If I think about it logically I cannot come up with any other valid reason other than to think that rushmore put my name on some list and it got to clubworld, which screwed me badly. Not only did they try to not pay me but they soiled my online name and ability to play at other casinos. This is really almost criminal because they are messing with my ability to do something I like and for no true reason. They paid all of the money back now... it is just that I cant deposit at clubworld, which is probably the only honest rtg site (other than inetbet and I wont touch them with their cs and silliness). Although, with Tom leaving I don't know what that means. I am wondering if clubworld is turning bad or folding or something? I have not seen a reason yet that tom left. Also, I have no idea who to contact there. Customer support is totally worthless in dealing with this particular issue, which makes sense however.

 

[rena35]

Rushmore group used to be great now rouged all over the net.Hoping this gets resolved

 

[KasinoKing]

I see that clubworld is leaving the forum? Tom is his name but he left clubworld so I am not sure whom to contact. Im not even sure if that means there are issues at clubworld or it is dissolving or something? It is just so hard to find an honest place to play as an American.

I think it's EXTREMELY unlikely that Club World are going anywhere!
Tom has left, but I'm sure he will be replaced sooner rather than later. As an Accredited casino group, they are oblighed to have a rep on the forum.

KK