Why does pragmatic keep making new slots with max win limits discussion?

ChopleyIOM

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Also why did you highlight that part of my post? You did not even talk about that? Did not make any sense to me.......

Because I think the stuff about max win caps is a total non-issue, it's clearly stated what the max win is, and the RTP is reported correctly in the help file. It's not wasted 'potential' if the game makes it clear it'll stop at 5000x stake.

You can certainly make the case that it's inelegant game design but fundamentally I honestly don't see what the problem is. (San Quentin xWays for example, hard stops at 150,000x stake, yes it's a massively higher win but it's still the same design choice.)

As for BerryBurst and BerryBurst MAX, the choice is there for people who want a less volatile game with the opportunity to win more often but with a smaller top prize. (The RTP for both games is nearly identical, although the non-MAX version is a little higher.)

When it comes to VS I hope you're keeping a close eye on the help files, 'cause they'll nerf the payouts on anything they can and not tell you about it.
 
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DreamRJ

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Because I think the stuff about max win caps is a total non-issue, it's clearly stated what the max win is, and the RTP is reported correctly in the help file. It's not wasted 'potential' if the game makes it clear it'll stop at 5000x stake.

You can certainly make the case that it's inelegant game design but fundamentally I honestly don't see what the problem is. (San Quentin xWays for example, hard stops at 150,000x stake, yes it's a massively higher win but it's still the same design choice.)

As for BerryBurst and BerryBurst MAX, the choice is there for people who want a less volatile game with the opportunity to win more often but with a smaller top prize. (The RTP for both games is nearly identical, although the non-MAX version is a little higher.)

When it comes to VS I hope you're keeping a close eye on the help files, 'cause they'll nerf the payouts on anything they can and not tell you about it.

And again you did not even answer what the post you quoted!???? nvm lol
 

mack341

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I wonder how the testing houses take account of the CAP, surely potential wins form part of the rtp and game cycle of expected return [over millions of spins], are there any casinos offering the pragmatic games uncapped?

If not, then why does pragmatic make games with this extra potential that the player will never have a chance to win?
 

DreamRJ

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I don't see which bit I didn't address?

The bits you quoted! You purposely edited the quotes and you in both instances did not even reply to what I said. You was replying about RTP and VS gimping. Nothing relating to the Wheel Spin which you quoted in the first Quote. I then in the second reply asked why you highlighted that wheel spin line in my post. And you then quoted that, and again you did not even answer as to why that was but you still quoted it!!!!!
 

DreamRJ

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I wonder how the testing houses take account of the CAP, surely potential wins form part of the rtp and game cycle of expected return [over millions of spins], are there any casinos offering the pragmatic games uncapped?

If not, then why does pragmatic make games with this extra potential that the player will never have a chance to win?

Exactly and no is the answer to your question! Pragmatic only have a few versions of slots with different RTP's for casino operators to choose from. But as for MAX WIN CAPS no, they remain in place regardless if a casino chooses to use a lower RTP version of the same slot!
 

ChopleyIOM

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I wonder how the testing houses take account of the CAP, surely potential wins form part of the rtp and game cycle of expected return [over millions of spins], are there any casinos offering the pragmatic games uncapped?

If not, then why does pragmatic make games with this extra potential that the player will never have a chance to win?

Argh! It's not 'lost potential'!

If Pragmatic uncapped all features that can pay over 5000x stake on one of the slots in question, then that'd increase the payout of the slot, so they'd then have to reclaim that RTP from elsewhere on the paytable.

As long as the cap is stated, and the reported RTP for the slot is correct, then the slot is performing exactly as intended and no 'potential' is lost.

Check out the 150,000x stake (well 75x stake.....) win replay on San Quentin xWays, the feature simply hard stops with one spin remaining and caps the win on the spin in progress as it hits 150,000x stake, considering that on that feature one spin alone pays something crazy like 116,000x stake, has the slot just 'lost the potential' to pay over 250,000x stake?

I honestly can't get my head around what the issue is here.
 

ChopleyIOM

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The bits you quoted! You purposely edited the quotes and you in both instances did not even reply to what I said. You was replying about RTP and VS gimping. Nothing relating to the Wheel Spin which you quoted in the first Quote. I then in the second reply asked why you highlighted that wheel spin line in my post. And you then quoted that, and again you did not even answer as to why that was but you still quoted it!!!!!

I highlighted the wheel spin at VS bit because you're playing at a casino that will gimp the RTPs of the slots you're playing right under your nose and not tell you about it, but you're complaining about Pragmatic employing entirely transparent and clearly explained max win caps on their slots.

Here's Gates of Olympus at VS:

1614331484528.png

And here it is at Unibet:

1614331502169.png

The 5000x max win cap is absolutely not the thing I'd be bothered about in this scenario.
 

DreamRJ

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I highlighted the wheel spin at VS bit because you're playing at a casino that will gimp the RTPs of the slots you're playing right under your nose and not tell you about it, but you're complaining about Pragmatic employing entirely transparent and clearly explained max win caps on their slots.

Here's Gates of Olympus at VS:

View attachment 151309

And here it is at Unibet:

View attachment 151310

The 5000x max win cap is absolutely not the thing I'd be bothered about in this scenario.

Ok, Well like I said, I do not play pragmatic much at VS anyway..... Rarely...... And FYI I do check help files for RTP all the time on new slots before I play them....... 95% or below at VS then I do not play them. Usually. Some exceptions if VS is the first or only casino to have them as an exclusive....... Then of course I will try it, but I will not play them a lot. I will wait for them to be released elsewhere with higher RTP's. :)
 

mack341

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Argh! It's not 'lost potential'!

If Pragmatic uncapped all features that can pay over 5000x stake on one of the slots in question, then that'd increase the payout of the slot, so they'd then have to reclaim that RTP from elsewhere on the paytable.

As long as the cap is stated, and the reported RTP for the slot is correct, then the slot is performing exactly as intended and no 'potential' is lost.

Check out the 150,000x stake (well 75x stake.....) win replay on San Quentin xWays, the feature simply hard stops with one spin remaining and caps the win on the spin in progress as it hits 150,000x stake, considering that on that feature one spin alone pays something crazy like 116,000x stake, has the slot just 'lost the potential' to pay over 250,000x stake?

I honestly can't get my head around what the issue is here.

I think we require a more technical explanation from Trance. Not saying you are wrong, but no need to get aerated here Chop :p

I play raging rhino a lot, rarely the game can pay 1500x but most big wins are closer to the 1000x, the casinos could cap it at 1000x, I would then argue some of the potential has been cut, the principal is the same doesn't matter whether it's a cap of, 1000x, 5000x or 100,000x, obviously these wins would be much, much rarer [1 in 500 million?]

that's why I mentioned 'game cycle' and the testing, as any game could reserve a micro amount of rtp and (effectively) store it to pay for big freak wins, done over a huge amount of spins players wouldn't likely notice as much.

The paytable, odds of wins, must all be part of the expected rtp I presume, but would like TM to explain how it works.

Is the uncapped game the 'vanilla' version that is tested to analyse rtp, and then the testing house just do some maths and take account of the likely 5000x CAP, as my understanding a game will be expected to hit its rtp after a certain number of spins.

edit: on my raging rhino example, the rtp reserved for the 1500x wins would just be given out elsewhere in the 'cycle' via smaller, more frequent wins. But it does still leave the question why pragmatic design games with huge potential that then are capped, why not just make a game where the best win possible from the reels sets and symbols combining is 5000x, which is what their customer the casino wants?
 
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Copperzzz

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Are you talking about this win? @DreamRJ
What I find weird is that they get wheels with only 20x and 25x on it :S It's like they are playing a broken version.
Someone else ever seen this wheel?


Schermafbeelding 2021-02-26 om 12.42.58.png

Then there's this guy who also seems to play a broken Pragmatic slot, I have never seen this many wilds suddenly pop in.
I looked up other "big wins" on youtube and none of them come close to this number of wilds.

Schermafbeelding 2021-02-26 om 12.45.26.png
 

DreamRJ

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Are you talking about this win? @DreamRJ
What I find weird is that they get wheels with only 20x and 25x on it :S It's like they are playing a broken version.
Someone else ever seen this wheel?


View attachment 151313

Then there's this guy who also seems to play a broken Pragmatic slot, I have never seen this many wilds suddenly pop in.
I looked up other "big wins" on youtube and none of them come close to this number of wilds.

View attachment 151314

I do not think that was the right video. The video with that feature on was on a well known channel. You know that website that Leovegas bought..... The site I will never use and I hate. I watch some of the videos on their YT channel for the laughs....... Not because I find them entertaining, because I do not. I laugh at the way they try anything to entice people to their brand. Because as you know streamers created it and then Leovegas bought it for a crazy amount of money. It actually made me soo mad when I found out about it. That is why I hate that site.
 

Mouse75

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IMO - which is of course likely to be completely wrong...

Prags capped games mechanics work as follows. RNG brings in a max win scenario (5000x on Madame Destiny Megaways, 1000x on whatever the Voodoo themed thing i hit it on is called)
Game then displays a completely OTT sequence to ensure this is hit with plenty to spare (so 30 odd spare spins on MDM - and equally me only using 2 of 5 free spins on Voodoo) If you watch the MDW vid its crazy. And for me - two straight spins of wilds only - when you never see more than two on a single reel normally.

RTP is correct as the win was only ever assigned the max x as payout - no loss of potential.
 

Mouse75

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@Copperzzz Thats a different max win from the one i saw - it was an american playing at 75c so win was $3750 exactly. As i recall though - it was the same wheel when he had a four scatter trigger. He ends up on 140x, with shed loads of spins left - and the feature retrigger alone is over 1000x - game shuts down at $3750. And at least 75c is a completely realistic bet - and whilst reactions can be faked - the guy seems genuinely delighted -then slightly - but only slightly - gutted when he realises it a max win. His reactions completely matched mine to be fair - and mine was only (not that i am complaining) 1000x
 

interlog

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I do not think that was the right video. The video with that feature on was on a well known channel. You know that website that Leovegas bought..... The site I will never use and I hate. I watch some of the videos on their YT channel for the laughs....... Not because I find them entertaining, because I do not. I laugh at the way they try anything to entice people to their brand. Because as you know streamers created it and then Leovegas bought it for a crazy amount of money. It actually made me soo mad when I found out about it. That is why I hate that site.

What a load of ballony. None of their streamers have hit the max win on Madame Destiny. Streamers called CasinoDaddy and ClassyBeef did, none of whom are associated with the site you're referring to.
 

danofthewibble

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You're arguing the difference between theoretical potential (e.g. over 150000x, for example) vs actual potential (e.g. capped at 150000x). There is no loss of potential with an advertised cap, because that potential never existed. Sure, it could exist, but it doesn't and never had, so nothing is lost.
 

mack341

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Just on will hill, looking at pragmatic's john hunter & the book of tut, loading screen says the top win is 5500x, the maximum stake is £100, and yet william hill's info on the game states the max win is £250,000 which is a 2,500x cap effectively for the top stake

Alright, probably only rosh is going to play at that stake level but it is misleading, should they be taking bets over £50 if the player will not be able to win the advertised 5500x?

Slightly different angle to the topic I realise, but in my eyes it's all a bit lackadaisical; rtp, advertising and game rules/instructions need an overhaul, from the ingame screen of 'king tut' there was no direct link to the will hill rules on the game; had to use a link from a recent email about changes to games they were making. The rtp is shocking too, 94.5%, they're having a laugh at our expense.
 
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DreamRJ

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What a load of ballony. None of their streamers have hit the max win on Madame Destiny. Streamers called CasinoDaddy and ClassyBeef did, none of whom are associated with the site you're referring to.

There I will link it, because you call me a liar........


Not baloney at all, this is on their Community wins video they do.....
 

sufferinsilence

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There I will link it, because you call me a liar........


Not baloney at all, this is on their Community wins video they do.....

Technically @interlog is right, this is a compilation of the videos that are sent in by community (forummembers just like here I suppose) of CG and not their affiliated streamers.
 
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