Why does pragmatic keep making new slots with max win limits discussion?

[DreamRJ]

So as some may know, I do have access to the Pragmatic Play Client Hub. What I have noticed recently is they have been releasing slots that have potential to win far greater amounts like for example that Madame Destiny megaways slot they made.

I saw a video on YouTube of a bonus someone had on that slot and they kept getting loads of retriggers on it and they kept getting the 20X and 25X multiplier on each real spin for each retrigger. They had like over 30 spins left and had a multiplier which was around 150X ish and they then hit the max win of 5000X bet which then ended the bonus......... I mean Why? WHY WHY WHY? It really is cheap and just not right in my opinion. If you make a slot that you can win huge amounts on, you should not cap it at such low amounts.

5000X is not low amounts but considering this person had like 30 spins still left and a multiplier of 150X for each win. Means that could have been a bonus that could have paid 10X more than that 5000X unless he then just had 30 dead spins in a row. Can happen but unlikely.

Then I noticed they keep releasing new slots when I see them in the client hub before they launch in actual online casinos where it shows the info and says it has max win of 5000X etc etc. I mean we know pragmatic makes slots with higher max wins? So why on earth do they limit others that have far more potential? It really is pointless in my opinion.

I mean obviously Peking Luck has that crazy 180,000X bet as max win on it but no one has still posted a image or a video of them winning that max win on that slot yet. So maybe it is just not even possible.

Then comes the new emerald road rainbow king slot, that has a 20,000X bet max win. It just boggles my mind that this slot you can win the 20,000X but only if you get the road to emerald feature and get to the end, and it spins a reel and you have a chance of hitting the RED highlighted 20,000X, The base game has max win of around 500X for a full screen of wilds or top symbols. Yet if you compare that to the Madame Destiny Megaways slot which is capped at 5000X just makes me cry...... It should be the other way round........ Or Madame Destiny should have at least 50,000X max win in my opinion. Considering the fact of that video I saw that he had like 5 or more retriggers.

Then I noticed a new slot not yet launched called Juicy Fruits added to the Client Hub the last day or 2, No Demo mode yet for it. But it shows the info below:

Release Date
25th March 2021
Default Bet Per Line
0.01
Minimum Total Bet
0.25
Rows
5
Reels
5
Lines
50
Bet Multiplier
25
Max multiplier win
x5,000.00
RTP
96.52%
Volatility

So as you can see again it has a max win of 5000X........ This slot is also a 5X5 reelset with 50 lines as well it also has progressive free spins. Similar to other slots they make like extra juicy, dance party, da vinci one.......

As we know they have higher MAX wins too. Yet this new one which has far higher win potential has been capped at 5000X......... It makes me mad to be honest.

Anyway I thought it would be a good topic of discussion. Let's begin

 

[Kroffe]

Just a note, 180 000x is the max for 1 spin on peking luck.
Fullscreen wilds x18.

I really dont mind a slot being capped at 5000x.
Looking at slots like fruit party that is also capped at 5000x, it actually seem to deliver that 5000x every now and then.
Compare that to the uncapped peking luck with basically limitless potential.
How many 5000x wins have you seen coming from that slot?

5000x becomes a decent amount of cash even on min stakes, €500/1000 depending on what min stake is.
Probably the only reason that the crazy bonus on MD:Mw happened in the first place (i also saw it) is because the slot is capped.
If the slot was not capped, they would have to make retriggers, and getting the high multipliers much, much more rare, since you cant have a slot dishing out 50 000x wins willy nilly.

As long as the win cap is shown in the paytable so i know there is one (which they are on PP slots) i dont have any problems with it.

 

[DreamRJ]

Just a note, 180 000x is the max for 1 spin on peking luck.
Fullscreen wilds x18.


As long as the win cap is shown in the paytable so i know there is one (which they are on PP slots) i dont have any problems with it.

Peking luck is capped at 180,000X. If you win that amount in multiple spins instead of hitting it in 1 spin. it ends the bonus even if you have spins left..... It shows that in the info in the pragmatic play client hub for that slot in MAX WIN......

The meaning of MAX WIN in pragmatic play client hub is basically that. That is the MAX WIN Limit cap.... Once that number is reached it ends the bonus. Be that in 1 spin or cumulative over multiple spins.

Second part of your post. Well each to their own. Me personally even if they state it or not it would still put me off playing that slot if it has much higher potential yet they capped it.

I avoid a lot of their new slots for this very reason. The only ones I do play are the ones that have far higher max wins than 5000X...

Obviously you did make a good point that the lower max win caps do result in people hitting the max wins a lot more often, than if say they have no max win or a max win of 50,000X, you are correct. Far fewer people would actually hit the max then. But saying that Relax gaming have a few recent slots with max win of 50,000X and actually loads of hit the max win on them already.

Not sure if they can be compared to the amount that win the 5000X max wins though. But yeah probably a lot more on the lower than the higher.

 

[Kroffe]

Peking luck is capped at 180,000X. If you win that amount in multiple spins instead of hitting it in 1 spin. it ends the bonus even if you have spins left..... It shows that in the info in the pragmatic play client hub for that slot in MAX WIN......

The meaning of MAX WIN in pragmatic play client hub is basically that. That is the MAX WIN Limit cap.... Once that number is reached it ends the bonus. Be that in 1 spin or cumulative over multiple spins.

Second part of your post. Well each to their own. Me personally even if they state it or not it would still put me off playing that slot if it has much higher potential yet they capped it.

I avoid a lot of their new slots for this very reason. The only ones I do play are the ones that have far higher max wins than 5000X...

Obviously you did make a good point that the lower max win caps do result in people hitting the max wins a lot more often, than if say they has no max win or a max win of 50,000X, you are correct. Far fewer people would actually hit the max then. But saying that Relax gaming have a few recent slots with max win of 50,000X and actually loads of hit the max win on them already.

Not sure if they can be compared to the amount that win the 5000X max wins though. But yeah probably a lot more on the lower than the higher.

I just think there are enough extremely volatile slots on the market already.
There are loads of slots out there capable of 20 000 - 100 000x wins now already, and i would prefer if going forward, we saw more medium/high volatile slots being released.

Dont get me wrong, i really enjoy super volatile slots, and i often play them.
But most of them are pretty much all or nothing.
Take a slot like lil devil for example.
You can do 100 spins on that and get like 10-20x back, and its not a rare thing either.
Collecting the heartstopper feature can (and probably will) set you back a couple 100x stake, and 99% of them will then go on to pay you 10-30x.
I understand it needs to be that way to make up for the 20 000x+ wins, but like i said, i think we already have a pretty good selection of super volatile slots to choose from.

There is only one missing, and that is Dead or alive megaways, that Netent no doubt will screw up.

 

[DreamRJ]

There is only one missing, and that is Dead or alive megaways, that Netent no doubt will screw up.

That slot is sure gonna be insane if they get it right. Would also be interesting if they set a cap on it too. I suspect they will. But it should be more than the DoA2 in my opinion. But I do not think it will be for obvious reasons. I also think the wild line(wild ways) in the megaway sense will pay far less. So if it has 6 reels then a wild on each reel if they are sticky would probably pay less. Unless it has 5 reels. I suppose until we get more info about it we will not know for sure......

I also hope they do not screw it up too. But saying that, I still have not had a wild line on DoA2 or 5 scatters yet. I have many times on DoA though had both, but DoA2 just totally hates me hahaha

 

[ChopleyIOM]

It's just a way of controlling the max top prize, and by extension, the RTP and volatility.

It's not unique to Pragmatic, several providers state in their help files that a feature will end when a certain top prize as a multiplication of stake or a cash value is reached. (Doesn't DOA2 do it at 111,111x stake?)

Now admittedly there is a scummy way to do it, whereby RTG slots used to be (still are?) capped at IIRC 2500x stake, and the RTP for those rare features that would go beyond that is 'lost', which is clearly to the player's disadvantage.

However, where the cap is clearly stated and the RTP shown for the game reflects this, I don't have a problem with it. If features could run on to 250,000x stake or whatever, then the maths elsewhere in the game would have to be gimped to account for this, as the slot still has to come in at around 96% RTP (or whatever it is for that game).

I've covered this on my channel a few times, at the end of the day there's only so much RTP to go around and everything on a slot has to be balanced out, so if all those capped wins were uncapped on Pragmatic slots, it could properly throw the rest of the slot out if they dialled other things back to keep the slot on RTP target.

You can certainly argue it's an inelegant way to do it, Nolimit City for example chuck ten billion spins through their slots and clearly state in their help file what the top win achieved was, so on East Coast vs West Coast it was the (very specific) number of 30,618x stake and there is no mention of a cap. (But to be clear here, one in ten billion is six times more unlikely than buying a winning Euromillions lottery ticket, which comes in at one in one hundred and seventy six million.)

As for the Emerald Road Rainbow King slot and hitting the top prize, you could argue that's being more honest than most slots as it's clearly showing the player the vanishingly unlikely chain of events that it'll take to hit, rather than hiding it behind an opaque generalised feature maths model that the player has no visibility of

 

[DreamRJ]

It's just a way of controlling the max top prize, and by extension, the RTP and volatility.

It's not unique to Pragmatic, several providers state in their help files that a feature will end when a certain top prize as a multiplication of stake or a cash value is reached. (Doesn't DOA2 do it at 111,111x stake?)

Now admittedly there is a scummy way to do it, whereby RTG slots used to be (still are?) capped at IIRC 2500x stake, and the RTP for those rare features that would go beyond that is 'lost', which is clearly to the player's disadvantage.

However, where the cap is clearly stated and the RTP shown for the game reflects this, I don't have a problem with it. If features could run on to 250,000x stake or whatever, then the maths elsewhere in the game would have to be gimped to account for this, as the slot still has to come in at around 96% RTP (or whatever it is for that game).

I've covered this on my channel a few times, at the end of the day there's only so much RTP to go around and everything on a slot has to be balanced out, so if all those capped wins were uncapped on Pragmatic slots, it could properly throw the rest of the slot out if they dialled other things back to keep the slot on RTP target.

You can certainly argue it's an inelegant way to do it, Nolimit City for example chuck ten billion spins through their slots and clearly state in their help file what the top win achieved was, so on East Coast vs West Coast it was the (very specific) number of 30,618x stake and there is no mention of a cap. (But to be clear hear, one in ten billion is six times more unlikely than buying a winning Euromillions lottery ticket, which comes in at one in one hundred and seventy six million.)

As for the Emerald Road Rainbow King slot and hitting the top prize, you could argue that's being more honest than most slots as it's clearly showing the player the vanishingly unlikely chain of events that it'll take to hit, rather than hiding it behind an opaque generalised feature maths model that the player has no visibility of

I agree to most of what you said.

As for the last paragraph. Well yeah maybe you also have a point, it might be nice to actually see the 20,000X prize on that reel spin and you miss it by 1 spot 99.9999999% of the time rather than a megaway slot or similar where it is mixed into multiple spins if that feature is a huge paying one or not. But this is not really what we are discussing.

The question was about Caps on MAX WIN's lol I know you touched upon it saying that the RTP has to be made up from somewhere. If that means they need to make it have a MAX WIN Cap in order for the RTP to be at a reasonable level etc etc then yeah I get that. But How do other providers manage to do it? Also how do Pragmatic do it on other slots they have made in the past that have far higher MAX WINS?

 

[CasinoNinja]

I also don't like that there is max cap wins on some slots, I get it for like Money Train 2 which could go balistics if it were the right setup, but take a slot like Razor Shark, advertised with simulated win of 20.000x ,and then someone hit recently for 70kx (if I am not mistaken?). I like that setup more.

They still say to the casinos that in our 10 billion spins simulation this was the max win, and then they can decide from there, but not cap it.

 

[ChopleyIOM]

, but take a slot like Razor Shark, advertised with simulated win of 20.000x ,and then someone hit recently for 70kx (if I am not mistaken?). I like that setup more.

Did that actually happen? For a provider's simulations to miss the mark by 350% on a top prize is pretty shit, and I'd question the integrity and thoroughness of their maths work.

 

[Lemon]

I would guess that capping the max prize allows for a greater range of stake options, which will push the average bet for that slot up, and in turn revenue? I mean 10,000x is enough of a prize and will be extremely rare in any case, and you can allow a bet of £25 without going over the £250k max prize threshold.
It doesn't always make sense to allow games to run naturally (especially stuff like unlimited multipliers and so on); you're restricting bet size and alienating certain types of player, all for something that might occur once in hundreds of millions of games, with a contribution of less than 0.1%.

 

[CasinoNinja]

Did that actually happen? For a provider's simulations to miss the mark by 350% on a top prize is pretty shit, and I'd question the integrity and thoroughness of their maths work.

Yes, 85.000x actually, I think the max win is 50kx advertised, but still. Here is a video:

 

[DreamRJ]

I would guess that capping the max prize allows for a greater range of stake options, which will push the average bet for that slot up, and in turn revenue? I mean 10,000x is enough of a prize and will be extremely rare in any case, and you can allow a bet of £25 without going over the £250k max prize threshold.
It doesn't always make sense to allow games to run naturally (especially stuff like unlimited multipliers and so on); you're restricting bet size and alienating certain types of player, all for something that might occur once in hundreds of millions of games, with a contribution of less than 0.1%.

Good point, that would explain another angle that providers may take. Then it comes down to casinos limiting the slot to a lower stake when the slot has a very high max win, like DoA2 etc etc and the new no limit one. VS have set max bet limits on them very low indeed. I mean it does not affect me anyway as I would never even bet that high anyway not even the VS limit they set on DoA2 of £3.60.

But yeah it does make sense when you look at it from the stakes point of view and they want to cater for all high rollers and low rollers, so they may be setting max wins low in order to keep the max stakes at a high roller level for those rich folk

 

[ChopleyIOM]

Yes, 85.000x actually, I think the max win is 50kx advertised, but still. Here is a video:

Interesting, here's an article about it too.

If anything, this kind of explains why you might want to put a cap in place, so a provider protects themselves from accusations of providing bad information about a game, which could have a casino exposing themselves to a liability they're not comfortable with.

Mind you, this is Push Gaming, who famously put so few results into the results pool in 'Scratchcard Game' Jammin' Jars that streamers were hitting identical win sequences on stream within days of release, so maybe they didn't throw sufficient numbers of simulated spins at Razor Shark.

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[DreamRJ]

If I have a choice to play a slot that has no max win caps then I will choose them over any other......

I just wanted to say this too an update about the Juicy Fruits one due in the next month or so. They now added Demo Play for it in the Client Hub. It is actually a bit different to Extra Juicy. As you start with only 6 free spins. When you land scatters during it, it collects them, When you collect 3 scatters, it upgrades the roaming wild from 1X1 to 2X2, and then goes all the way up to 5X5 wilds, with 3X3 and 4X4 in-between.

So it is actually a lot like the Push Gaming slots Fat Santa and Fat Rabbit......... But it has more lines than the push gaming slots. Best symbol is the 7 symbol, Which pays £6 for 5oak on min stake, Partially stacked as well on the reels. I suspect the 5X5 wild in free spins will be pretty impossible to reach. I tested it by using the Demo option to trigger free spins and I could only get to the 3X3 wild so far. The 5000X just seems Far too low.

If you have a few spins left when you reach the 5X5 wild in free spins, you will be gutted of the 5000X it really is not good. Sorry @Pragmatic Play Official - I had to tag you to say that I will not be playing any of the slots with these max wins anymore. Especially when they have far more potential to pay far far more.

So 50 lines X £6 = so £300 for full screen 5X5 wild on min stake. Which works out at 1200X, So say you was at 3000X or more just before you get to the last 5X5 wild, then you see my point......

 

[DreamRJ]

So to finish, all these slot providers are doing adding these new max wins is alienating the player-base... Some will not mind them, but others will. So they will lose players as a result for these hard line max win limits on their new slots. Where is the middle ground going to be? Surely they can come up with a better solution that will please everyone going forward?

Like for example. Net Ent released that BerryBurst slot then they also released the BerryBurstMax. Why would you choose to play the Normal when Max has higher pays? I know which I would pick anyway. They discontinued that slot I think now anyway.

But Say Pragmatic decided to release different versions of the same slot that had higher max win cap on them. Which do you think the majority would pick on the whole? I know which I would pick.

When I am low rolling for wagering when I get close to my next wheel spin at VS for example I always then play lower volatile slots obviously. But when playing normally I always go for the higher volatile slots.

 

[Mouse75]

I don't mind an official win cap - however if pragmatic are watching... a Jackpot screen when hitting this would be a nice touch!
Think of time is money 250x max which is really low in this day and age - but you do get a nice little jackpot sequence when you hit it.

 

[sufferinsilence]

How about this one? Will have a wide release soon. Volatility 5/5 and 1200x max win. I double checked in the info to make sure and yes, it's not 1200x bet in 1 spin but the bonus ends when you reach it. Seems on the low side for a high variance slot.

 

[DreamRJ]

How about this one? Will have a wide release soon. Volatility 5/5 and 1200x max win. I double checked in the info to make sure and yes, it's not 1200x bet in 1 spin but the bonus ends when you reach it. Seems on the low side for a high variance slot.

View attachment 151292

Yep, I did not mention that one when I posted. But yes it is very low max win cap too. Really pointless. Pragmatic are just going to force people to stop playing their new slots if they continue this MAX WIN CAP Crusade they seem to be on the last few months.........!!!!!!!!

 

[ChopleyIOM]

When I am low rolling for wagering when I get close to my next wheel spin at VS for example I always then play lower volatile slots obviously. But when playing normally I always go for the higher volatile slots.

Woah hold on there fella, you're not happy about max win caps on slots that clearly state they have max win caps and that are fully accounted for in the RTP, but you're playing at VS who have gimped the RTPs of their slots on every single provider they can, including Pragmatic?

You know what absolutely will screw you as a player, voluntarily increasing the house edge on the games you're playing by 50% and more!

 

[DreamRJ]

Woah hold on there fella, you're not happy about max win caps on slots that clearly state they have max win caps and that are fully accounted for in the RTP, but you're playing at VS who have gimped the RTPs of their slots on every single provider they can, including Pragmatic?

You know what absolutely will screw you as a player, voluntarily increasing the house edge on the games you're playing by 50% and more!

It is not just VS that have gimped the RTP. And actually your wrong. They have many providers where they can not select a lower RTP. I play those at VS........

I do not play any Play N Go, Red Tiger Scammaz slots, Pragmatic rarely at VS, Net Ent I also do not play either anymore at VS. Not sure if there is any others, but those are the only 4 that I know of that have been known to have multiple selectable RTP options for casino operators to pick from!

Also why did you highlight that part of my post? You did not even talk about that? Did not make any sense to me.......

 

[ChopleyIOM]

Also why did you highlight that part of my post? You did not even talk about that? Did not make any sense to me.......

Because I think the stuff about max win caps is a total non-issue, it's clearly stated what the max win is, and the RTP is reported correctly in the help file. It's not wasted 'potential' if the game makes it clear it'll stop at 5000x stake.

You can certainly make the case that it's inelegant game design but fundamentally I honestly don't see what the problem is. (San Quentin xWays for example, hard stops at 150,000x stake, yes it's a massively higher win but it's still the same design choice.)

As for BerryBurst and BerryBurst MAX, the choice is there for people who want a less volatile game with the opportunity to win more often but with a smaller top prize. (The RTP for both games is nearly identical, although the non-MAX version is a little higher.)

When it comes to VS I hope you're keeping a close eye on the help files, 'cause they'll nerf the payouts on anything they can and not tell you about it.

 

[DreamRJ]

Because I think the stuff about max win caps is a total non-issue, it's clearly stated what the max win is, and the RTP is reported correctly in the help file. It's not wasted 'potential' if the game makes it clear it'll stop at 5000x stake.

You can certainly make the case that it's inelegant game design but fundamentally I honestly don't see what the problem is. (San Quentin xWays for example, hard stops at 150,000x stake, yes it's a massively higher win but it's still the same design choice.)

As for BerryBurst and BerryBurst MAX, the choice is there for people who want a less volatile game with the opportunity to win more often but with a smaller top prize. (The RTP for both games is nearly identical, although the non-MAX version is a little higher.)

When it comes to VS I hope you're keeping a close eye on the help files, 'cause they'll nerf the payouts on anything they can and not tell you about it.

And again you did not even answer what the post you quoted!???? nvm lol

 

[ChopleyIOM]

I don't see which bit I didn't address?

 

[mack341]

I wonder how the testing houses take account of the CAP, surely potential wins form part of the rtp and game cycle of expected return [over millions of spins], are there any casinos offering the pragmatic games uncapped?

If not, then why does pragmatic make games with this extra potential that the player will never have a chance to win?

 

[DreamRJ]

I don't see which bit I didn't address?

The bits you quoted! You purposely edited the quotes and you in both instances did not even reply to what I said. You was replying about RTP and VS gimping. Nothing relating to the Wheel Spin which you quoted in the first Quote. I then in the second reply asked why you highlighted that wheel spin line in my post. And you then quoted that, and again you did not even answer as to why that was but you still quoted it!!!!!