what's up with Mega Moolah?

[KasinoKing]

IMO, had the weirdest experience with MM this morning. MINI was 61 dolalrs and small change when I hit random jackpot feature. The wheel spinned. Naturally (and as always for me), only MINI was won The moment spinning stopped, the MINI JP reading on the left bar was exactly at $62.00. Next thing I saw, the message on top of the wheel - saying "YOU WON $18.82!!!"

WTH? Could it be that smb else won 62 bucks MINI half second (or less?!) before me, and it was reset to $18 which I got?! In any case, it left somewhat bad aftertaste... weird...

Did you get a screenshot?
If anyone else gets the bonus wheel they'd better make sure they get one in case this crazy shit happens again, so they can complain to the casino.
I mean, that's just not right, is it!

 

[Fleur-De-Lis]

Did you get a screenshot?
If anyone else gets the bonus wheel they'd better make sure they get one in case this crazy shit happens again, so they can complain to the casino.
I mean, that's just not right, is it!

Money-wise, it was not big enough to make me mad
However, I contacted Live Help and asked if they can comment. The rep said he'd investigate and email me... I'll post the email here once I get it

 

[retlaw]

Did you get a screenshot?
If anyone else gets the bonus wheel they'd better make sure they get one in case this crazy shit happens again, so they can complain to the casino.
I mean, that's just not right, is it!

A screenshot will not help ,because the casino cannot find the details.
They have to contact MG for this, and they also could not retrace it.
It happened to me (see my message earlier in this thread) a long time ago.

After all a screenshot will not help, because it only mentions the amount you did win,and not the amount of the Jackpot at that time.
This means you cannot prove the difference between both figures.

 

[zebedy]

this was from another thread , according to microgaming and ecorgra the payouts can not be changed

from microgaming.

Can individual MG casinos such as yourself change the % payable on any of the games or are they all set by MG?

A The system can in no way be altered to suite the casino. Any casino with the ability to change payout ratio's on games would not be one that I would play at. The casino would also not be legitimately licensed. Remember that our payouts can be viewed xxxxx

Q If not, do MG change the % from time to time on any given games and if so, which games?

A Not possible. The software would be unfair and MicroGaming would basically have full control over the casino's. The games run on different algorithms which is why you have good and bad luck streaks. None of this is predetermined by MicroGaming or the casino.

from ecogra

Q/ Can individual MG casinos such change the % payable on any of the games or are they all set by MG?

The casino operators can definitely not change the payout percentages on any of their games. In addition to this, we also monitor the monthly payout ratios for all the games using data from MGS, which enables us to ensure that MGS is also not changing any of the percentages.

Q/ If not, do MG change the % from time to time on any given games and if so, which games?
MGS does not change the payout percentage on any of their existing games. If they do want to change the percentage, then a new game is developed and launched as such (e.g. a new slots game or a table game that will operate according to different rules, and the rules must be published with the game).

so if the payouts have changed on MM are they telling porkies ? or am i just missing the plot completely lol

 

[Zoozie]

A casino operator can never change the game payout% of individual games.
In short a MG game is the same across all casinos at the same time.

Also MG does not have a configuration ability to change payout% of a game (across all casino ). But they can release a new version of the game of course and this is what happened with MM.

This will normally require a new download (ie. if reels/paytable is changed). But for MM was not have necessary because the triggering and jackpots are placed on a special server for this. And they only had to change the software on this server to decrease triggering probability.

 

[zebedy]

A casino operator can never change the game payout% of individual games.
In short a MG game is the same across all casinos at the same time.

Also MG does not have a configuration ability to change payout% of a game (across all casino ). But they can release a new version of the game of course and this is what happened with MM.

This will normally require a new download (ie. if reels/paytable is changed). But for MM was not have necessary because the triggering and jackpots are placed on a special server for this. And they only had to change the software on this server to decrease triggering probability.

so they cant change the payout % of a game but they can change how often the triggering possibility hits, does this apply to something like thunderstruck say you get the freespin feature roughly 150 spins can they change this to something like 300 spins, or is that down to the alogarythumminumim thingy

 

[Zoozie]

so they cant change the payout % of a game but they can change how often the triggering possibility hits, does this apply to something like thunderstruck say you get the freespin feature roughly 150 spins can they change this to something like 300 spins, or is that down to the alogarythumminumim thingy

Not at all!

This is determined by the reels and they have never been changed for Thunderstruck. Any change to Thunderstruck will be visible to the players if they dig deeper (ie. finding the reels again).

 

[handkey]

I like the Mega Moolah progressive slot very much, but never meet the jackpot turn.

Anyone can show me a screenshot when they meet it?

 

[KasinoKing]

Anyone can show me a screenshot when they meet it?

Sure!
I've only met it twice - and got the minor both times of course

Note: The chance of lading on each segment is NOT 1 in 20 - it's definitely weighted.
This shot is from before the recent change to the jackpots (obviously):-

 

[Rusty]

Everybody accepts weighting as a matter of course in Bonus games as I do but why do you find it so hard to believe weighting exists in normal spins when all the evidence is to the contrary?
I still have not heard one reasonable explanation of why scatter symbols either appear like a rash sometimes and other times are non existent.
It simply can not be explained by variance.
Bahhhh.

Edit:
Don't mind me I have the Mother of all a hangovers.

 

[KasinoKing]

Everybody accepts weighting as a matter of course in Bonus games as I do but why do you find it so hard to believe weighting exists in normal spins when all the evidence is to the contrary?

In the case of Mega Moolah, it's obvious they have to use weighting; otherwise the Mega Jackpot would be won on every 20 spins of the wheel (on average), then it wouldn't be very mega, would it?

With all due respect, where is your evidence of weighting on Microgaming bonus video slots?

It's fair enough you saying you don't see a scatter on a reel for 50 spins or whatever, but what about when it appears 10 times in 30 spins? Is their scarceness just your perception because you are intentionally looking for runs of them not hitting, and not looking for runs of them hitting a lot?
If you really want to prove what you're saying you need to present several Playcheck game logs for (I don't know) 300 - 500 - more? consecutive spins so the scatters can be counted to see if the number of hits falls within the reasonable expected margins.
This needs to be on a slot for which we know the reel layouts (there are 25 on SlotBeaters), and preferably not Cashapillar unless you are going to log 1000+ spins.

KK

 

[Rusty]

Nah I don't, it is obvious for anyone who is not looking through Casino tinted spectacles.
and that is all I have to say about that.

Yes obviously they way some bonus games are set up weighting needs to be used, I said as much.

It's fair enough you saying you don't see a scatter on a reel for 50 spins or whatever, but what about when it appears 10 times in 30 spins? Is their scarceness just your perception because you are intentionally looking for runs of them not hitting, and not looking for runs of them hitting a lot?

Nope, but thanks for the patronising remark.

Why would I be looking for anything?
If anyone is looking for something that is not there, is it not more likely to be someone who makes money through advertising Casinos such as yourself?
I do not believe that is the case but the logic of that statement is irrefutable so best not to suggest that I am biased again.

As for playlogs, they do not show the scatter unless you bring up the specific capture for each game played and we all know how long that would take so it is not feesible.
However on the 4th reel in Cashapillar there are Two scatter symbols not too far apart.
When you play the game and have Two scatters already and after a little time and you know the reel is close to stopping and see the first one go past you know from experience the second has a good chance of hitting.
What if that second one does not appear? It always has before, maybe just above or just below or maybe the feature triggered but it is there, right.
Well not in all my last sessions, again and again it would fail to materialize and all this when I am playing thousands of spins and triggering the feature and seeing the scatters much more rarely than normal.
No scatter on reel one not for 50 spins but for nearly 150
If you honestly can not see these unnatural cycles (same with the wilds) of hardly appearing at all then appearing frequently until the feature trigger then back to AWOL then you are playing a different version of the game.

I won't reply to a response on this thread because I am derailing it, sorry but I will chat via PM, maybe I should watch your games and you watch mine through webcam?
We could then get to see in real time and there would be no question of bias or perception.

 

[AudiManinBoro]

Nah I don't, it is obvious for anyone who is not looking through Casino tinted spectacles.
and that is all I have to say about that.

Yes obviously they way some bonus games are set up weighting needs to be used, I said as much.

It's fair enough you saying you don't see a scatter on a reel for 50 spins or whatever, but what about when it appears 10 times in 30 spins? Is their scarceness just your perception because you are intentionally looking for runs of them not hitting, and not looking for runs of them hitting a lot?

Nope, but thanks for the patronising remark.

Why would I be looking for anything?
If anyone is looking for something that is not there, is it not more likely to be someone who makes money through advertising Casinos such as yourself?
I do not believe that is the case but the logic of that statement is irrefutable so best not to suggest that I am biased again.

As for playlogs, they do not show the scatter unless you bring up the specific capture for each game played and we all know how long that would take so it is not feesible.
However on the 4th reel in Cashapillar there are Two scatter symbols not too far apart.
When you play the game and have Two scatters already and after a little time and you know the reel is close to stopping and see the first one go past you know from experience the second has a good chance of hitting.
What if that second one does not appear? It always has before, maybe just above or just below or maybe the feature triggered but it is there, right.
Well not in all my last sessions, again and again it would fail to materialize and all this when I am playing thousands of spins and triggering the feature and seeing the scatters much more rarely than normal.
No scatter on reel one not for 50 spins but for nearly 150
If you honestly can not see these unnatural cycles (same with the wilds) of hardly appearing at all then appearing frequently until the feature trigger then back to AWOL then you are playing a different version of the game.

I won't reply to a response on this thread because I am derailing it, sorry but I will chat via PM, maybe I should watch your games and you watch mine through webcam?
We could then get to see in real time and there would be no question of bias or perception.

I see where KK is coming from but i do have to agree that some days you can log onto an mg casino and EVERYTHING hits. bonus rounds abound, free spins galore, scatters on almost every click of the mouse and the next day it can be where your lucky to even get a bonus round. That has to be deliberate because as rusty points out varience COULD NOT account for that alone.

I have to agree that casinos pay out when they want to pay out and if your lucky enough to be playing on the day they have the flip switched then great times ahead. If your not its bye bye deposit.

 

[steinhaug]

It's fair enough you saying you don't see a scatter on a reel for 50 spins or whatever, but what about when it appears 10 times in 30 spins? Is their scarceness just your perception because you are intentionally looking for runs of them not hitting, and not looking for runs of them hitting a lot?

Well... For some reason I just have to chip in here even if its for deaf ears - for some reason either my brain is wrong or I have misunderstood something very importand with randomness.

I believe both Rusty and myself are players who have been wagering high aswell, just as with BJ the system starts to change when doing larger bets. Just because I have a say $400 win in Tomraider that doesn't mean that I get 10 naked spins on cashapillar, then mini win and 10 more naked. Or, say I loose $400 in tomb raider fast, and therefor I get lot's of smaller wins in cashapillar.

If this is random, how come the nature of randomness always builds gradually up - better better better and a good win - then it all dies again.

And magially - as always it has a tendency to give you a 90-95% payout!

I believe there are several "conditional statements" going on i a players account, but the most apparent is that when you have been loosing enough you simply must win! And - you can force one machine to be a winning slot and one to be a loosing slot! It's also to easy to proove, however it will cost you a few $1000 dollars since you most likely will loose.

Onlince casinos - randomness has nothing to do with it!

Also - the reels are not spinning, they are representing a % win of your bet. The positions are served, and the system merely "stops" the reels at the position which will give you this payout. That also accounts for the bonus rounds being pretty much the same payout all the time, and also why retriggers often are shite since you simply cannot win any more on theese spins since the retrigger most likely was a "dumb" way of giving you the prize, however for a gambling addict it sure as hell hightens the tension.

All you need to do is play 3 slots - be sure that after winning big on nr. 1, start playing on nr.2, point of to is to loose! When you feel you are having problems with loosing play a little on nr 3, then go back to nr. 1 which you will win on, do the same over again. In a while you start to see my point.

This is why, atleast for me, I have some machines I have very low payout on some and high on others. I didn't see this before I started looking at my own playing patterns. Swithing theese from casino to casino makes the good ones become bad ones and visa versa...

It's fun though, however MG system is to greedy so it eat's to much before "giving" back... And we know, when it gives it doesn't matter what you play it all hits anyway.

1 game, 180+ skins not the other way!

 

[oyw7862]

Kmiss, that an excellent analysis/guess. A lot you mentioned I have seen enough.

The Q is if we indeed believe MG slots weighted, why we kept putting hard cash in right?

WE ARE ADDICTS, THAT RIGHT.

JUST HOPE THE SLOTS NOT GET EVEN WORSE.

 

[vinylweatherman]

Q If not, do MG change the % from time to time on any given games and if so, which games?

A Not possible. The software would be unfair and MicroGaming would basically have full control over the casino's. The games run on different algorithms which is why you have good and bad luck streaks. None of this is predetermined by MicroGaming or the casino.

Exactly HOW is this "random" then. Surely the fact that games are "different" from each other would NOT have ANY connection with "good or bad streaks".

MG certainly HAVE changed Mega Moolah. There is simply NO WAY they are going to dig themselves out of this particular hole. They have NOT released a "new game", they have changed the EXISTING Mega Moolah slot such that the Mini and Minor jackpots trigger far less frequently, and for generally larger amounts. The change is so striking as to be undeniable.

IMO, had the weirdest experience with MM this morning. MINI was 61 dolalrs and small change when I hit random jackpot feature. The wheel spinned. Naturally (and as always for me), only MINI was won The moment spinning stopped, the MINI JP reading on the left bar was exactly at $62.00. Next thing I saw, the message on top of the wheel - saying "YOU WON $18.82!!!"

WTH? Could it be that smb else won 62 bucks MINI half second (or less?!) before me, and it was reset to $18 which I got?! In any case, it left somewhat bad aftertaste... weird...

This would be highly likely under the old rules, but is VERY suspicious looking now that when during play we see that wins of the jackpot are around once every half hour. This could also be highly worrying, as it might indicate these high figures are just nonsense, and the jackpots pay as before, but a good deal LESS often, and this would seem to offer a lowered payout.

 

[KasinoKing]

Nah I don't, it is obvious for anyone who is not looking through Casino tinted spectacles.
and that is all I have to say about that.

Yes obviously they way some bonus games are set up weighting needs to be used, I said as much.

It's fair enough you saying you don't see a scatter on a reel for 50 spins or whatever, but what about when it appears 10 times in 30 spins? Is their scarceness just your perception because you are intentionally looking for runs of them not hitting, and not looking for runs of them hitting a lot?

Nope, but thanks for the patronising remark.

Why would I be looking for anything?

Sorry I did not intend to sound patronising - I thought that was a fair & reasonable question in the light of your claims.

I do not look through 'casino tinted spectacles'. I am a real player who risks my own deposited money every day at online casinos. I have made profit 77 out of the 88 months I've been playing online, with the last 4 years being nearly all slots play.
Now I'm not saying I can prove that casinos are NOT rigged - all I can say is I personally have not seen anything to conclusively say that they are.

From all your posts, it's seems you are looking for something; a reason why you lose beyond the natural house edge of the slots.
I have no idea why your luck should be any different to mine - the webcam thing is a good idea!
(When I get broadband back - I'm on dial-up at the moment! )
Same applies too Audiman, Kimss & oyw; I can't explain what you're experiencing. I am not saying anyone is lying here - just that I have not seen it myself. Maybe it's true that it only effects high-rollers, because that's something I very rarely do.

If I may just correct you here:-

However on the 4th reel in Cashapillar there are Two scatter symbols not too far apart.
When you play the game and have Two scatters already and after a little time and you know the reel is close to stopping and see the first one go past you know from experience the second has a good chance of hitting.

The 4th reel has 3 scatters, not 2.
As explained in my "Cashapillar dissected" thread - you can not predict where the reels will stop because the final positions are 'cut in' just a few milliseconds before they do stop. The spinning of the reels beforehand is just 'eye candy' (although on this particular slot this eye candy is a true representation of the layout of the reels).

Odds of hitting a scatter (reels 1 - 5): 1 in 15.8, 1 in 14.8, 1 in 14.8, 1 in 6.27, 1 in 9.40

I hope your luck takes a turn for the better soon!

 

[Rusty]

Sorry I did not intend to sound patronising - I thought that was a fair & reasonable question in the light of your claims.

I do not look through 'casino tinted spectacles'. I am a real player who risks my own deposited money every day at online casinos. I have made profit 77 out of the 88 months I've been playing online, with the last 4 years being nearly all slots play.
Now I'm not saying I can prove that casinos are NOT rigged - all I can say is I personally have not seen anything to conclusively say that they are.

From all your posts, it's seems you are looking for something; a reason why you lose beyond the natural house edge of the slots.
I have no idea why your luck should be any different to mine - the webcam thing is a good idea!
(When I get broadband back - I'm on dial-up at the moment! )
Same applies too Audiman, Kimss & oyw; I can't explain what you're experiencing. I am not saying anyone is lying here - just that I have not seen it myself. Maybe it's true that it only effects high-rollers, because that's something I very rarely do.

If I may just correct you here:-

The 4th reel has 3 scatters, not 2.
As explained in my "Cashapillar dissected" thread - you can not predict where the reels will stop because the final positions are 'cut in' just a few milliseconds before they do stop. The spinning of the reels beforehand is just 'eye candy' (although on this particular slot this eye candy is a true representation of the layout of the reels).

Odds of hitting a scatter (reels 1 - 5): 1 in 15.8, 1 in 14.8, 1 in 14.8, 1 in 6.27, 1 in 9.40

I hope your luck takes a turn for the better soon!

Gahhh, I said I would not reply here but you got me KK
One at time
Sorry I did not intend to sound patronising - I thought that was a fair & reasonable question in the light of your claims.

My claims or your claims?
Anyway it is the way you phrase it that makes it hard to see as anything other than patronising.

Now I'm not saying I can prove that casinos are NOT rigged - all I can say is I personally have not seen anything to conclusively say that they are.

I am not saying that I can prove they are rigged or even that they ARE rigged-all I can say is that there is plenty of evidence that suggests the slots are weighted.
I have seen plenty of games of find the Lady on street corners and I know that is rigged but I have always seen someone win
Online we have to play find the lady blindfolded so anyone who goes into it assuming it is a fair game needs a rethink.
Only suspicion will keep Casinos honest if indeed they are honest to begin with.
That leads me to;

From all your posts, it's seems you are looking for something

I see what I see and report it.
If you check your original reply to me you will see that you managed to ignore what I said about weighting in bonus games, that is an example of seeing what you want to see.
Another is when you say 50 spins instead of the 150 I said.
Another is when you corrct me that there are 3 scatters on the 4th Reel when I did not say otherwise, I was simply referring to the Two scatters on that reel that are close together which brings me to;

As explained in my "Cashapillar dissected" thread - you can not predict where the reels will stop because the final positions are 'cut in' just a few milliseconds before they do stop. The spinning of the reels beforehand is just 'eye candy' (although on this particular slot this eye candy is a true representation of the layout of the reels).

The spinning of the reels is just a graphical representation but the final animation is cut in long before (relative to the timeframes we are talking) you are suggesting. (it has to be or it would look terrible I would suggest at least 7 symbols animation length) How far apart are those 2 scatters?
This is why the effect is noticeable.
If it always existed I would not expect to see one scatter follow the other and trigger the feature as happened Hundreds of times before.
That is my point, something was different.
That said the fact Cashapillar reels are so long is a valid reason to reset the reel animation IMO and I have not noticed it in other MG slots unlike RTG to be fair. Still it would be better just to playback at higher FPS and have proper reel representation.

Finally;
You have dial up? :notworthy
and KK...you know I love you

 

[me_and_ed]

Maybe I have not read enough but has anybody from MG come to answer the question of change here, this is what the topic was, wasn't it?

 

[Rusty]

Maybe I have not read enough but has anybody from MG come to answer the question of change here, this is what the topic was, wasn't it?

Yes MEGA MOOLAH sorry for the derail.

 

[KasinoKing]

The final derail! (I hope - otherwise lets start another thread!)

If you check your original reply to me you will see that you managed to ignore what I said about weighting in bonus games, that is an example of seeing what you want to see.
Another is when you say 50 spins instead of the 150 I said.
Another is when you corrct me that there are 3 scatters on the 4th Reel when I did not say otherwise, I was simply referring to the Two scatters on that reel that are close together ...

I deliberately did not mention the weighting of the bonus games because that is a separate issue.
We are discussing the weighting (or not) of the reels during normal play.

I know you said 150, I just picked the figure 50 as an example.

Sorry about the 2 scatters bit - I did misread that!

The spinning of the reels is just a graphical representation but the final animation is cut in long before (relative to the timeframes we are talking) you are suggesting. (it has to be or it would look terrible I would suggest at least 7 symbols animation length) How far apart are those 2 scatters?
This is why the effect is noticeable.
If it always existed I would not expect to see one scatter follow the other and trigger the feature as happened Hundreds of times before.
That is my point, something was different.
That said the fact Cashapillar reels are so long is a valid reason to reset the reel animation IMO and I have not noticed it in other MG slots unlike RTG to be fair. Still it would be better just to playback at higher FPS and have proper reel representation.

From my observations on Cashapillar the 'cut-in' actually seems to vary between about 1 up to 4 symbols before the stop on ALL the reels.
I admit I was very surprised to see this - I would have expected them to be all the same.
Just play it for a little while & look out for 2 of the same symbol appearing next to each other, or less than 5 stacked wilds together just before each reel stops & I'm sure you will see what I mean.

Other MG slots do have this 'cut-in' - I've noticed it on some of the other fairly new ones where the reels spin slowly enough to see the symbols: The Osbournes definitely, and Glory of Rome too, I think.

Those 2 scatters are 5 symbols apart, but I can't believe you asked me that! I spent 100's of hours (OK, about 20 ) plotting out the reel layouts just for you (link in my signature) - and you don't use it.
You're no friend of mine!

 

[Rusty]

You see, I say I love you and what do I get?

You're no friend of mine!

 

[retlaw]

Money-wise, it was not big enough to make me mad
However, I contacted Live Help and asked if they can comment. The rep said he'd investigate and email me... I'll post the email here once I get it

Fleur-De-Lis : did you get already an email from the casino?

 

[Fleur-De-Lis]

Nope, no answer, no email so far. Do you think I should get on Live Chat and enquire again?

 

[steinhaug]

Maybe it's true that it only effects high-rollers, because that's something I very rarely do.

That's a given KK - low rolling seems fairer - it's when you wager harder it all changes! To me it's more like the system has a trigger, and with higher best you activate this "conditional statement" if you like.

I know you win, but you should try depositing $500-$1500 a day and loosing 30 days in a row doing say $2.25 - $5 spins, you would most likely change your tune darn fast! And my point of reference is that the gameplay changes, not being a sore looser!