What is the worst payout percentage you ever had in a 10-15 day period?

[nikantw]

Not talking about rogues, you get the report percentage (95%- 99%) after a long time.
At short time period a jackpot can make that 100.000.000% . But how small can it be in 1/3 of a month?

My record is 54%. First 15 days of July, half an hour play per day. Same casino.
Gambling is fun, but how much fun can you get when you are losing like that?

Anyway, what about you?

No rogue casinos. And no casino names please, not here to trash or advertise anyone.

 

[Tirilej]

I would have answered that if I had any clue

I have never asked what it is and I don't think I want to know.
For me it really doesn't matter since I know it's sometimes really bad and sometimes really good.
Most of the time I just want some playtime and I know how to get that. If I also win a little or huge then that's fine too.

Not the answer you were looking for I know, but maybe it's also good to know that not everyone is chasing their losses

 

[chuchu59]

Not enough info..... I repeat..... Not enough info.

 

[nikantw]

I would have answered that if I had any clue

I have never asked what it is and I don't think I want to know.
For me it really doesn't matter since I know it's sometimes really bad and sometimes really good.
Most of the time I just want some playtime and I know how to get that. If I also win a little or huge then that's fine too.

Not the answer you were looking for I know, but maybe it's also good to know that not everyone is chasing their losses

No, I never count! I wouldn't know if support didn't tell me!
I only felt having much less playtime than usual.

 

[ChopleyIOM]

I managed an RTP of just over 68% on a slot across 3500 spins, that one stung a bit.

It was a high variance slot, but even so, ouch.

 

[naththo]

I have another good example of worst payout percentage, Indian Dreamings from Aristocrat, during normal game returns you around 50% or more but free games with up to 15 times multiply will make up for it to 87.5% legal percantage payout in Australia. This is a high variance cos of high payout as in 5 of a kind range from $1.00 to $25.00.

There is similar one at Intercasino but free game is different is up to 20 all the time. Indian Dreamings range from 10 to 20 depends how many scattered it landed on. Sometimes in Indian Dreamings no free game for over 500 spins or more. So really it eats up your money fast!

Nathan.

 

[skiny]

I don't really concern myself too much with payout percentages. No matter what the number is you'll always be told it's not a big enough sample anyway.

Besides, you could have a 99% payout percentage and never have a dollar more than you started with. Doesn't really help much.

If you want a high payout percentage just play low variance games. You'll just keep winning most of your wager back until you're broke.

Play high variance games and maybe you'll go broke in 15 minutes or maybe you'll triple your balance in one bonus feature.

I don't even ask for a payout percentage. The number just doesn't help me. I know when I'm losing and I know when I'm winning. I know when I haven't had more than my starting balance from the last 10 deposits and I know when I've withdrawn more lately than I've deposited. Most people have a pretty good idea of what casinos are giving them lots of playtime and if you're not getting the playtime you like, then move on or change games.

Most casinos are happy to give you your payout percentage. If it's 50% or 150% It's not going to help you the next time you play. I've stopped depositing at some well known casinos lately because every time I do I lose my deposit as fast as I can spin. When I get that feeling from the casinos I am depositing at now, maybe I'll go back to the other ones.

Gambling starts when you decide which casino you're going to make your deposit at. After that all you can do is spin and hope for the best.

 

[Nifty29]

I don't really concern myself too much with payout percentages. No matter what the number is you'll always be told it's not a big enough sample anyway.

Besides, you could have a 99% payout percentage and never have a dollar more than you started with. Doesn't really help much.

If you want a high payout percentage just play low variance games. You'll just keep winning most of your wager back until you're broke.

Play high variance games and maybe you'll go broke in 15 minutes or maybe you'll triple your balance in one bonus feature.

I don't even ask for a payout percentage. The number just doesn't help me. I know when I'm losing and I know when I'm winning. I know when I haven't had more than my starting balance from the last 10 deposits and I know when I've withdrawn more lately than I've deposited. Most people have a pretty good idea of what casinos are giving them lots of playtime and if you're not getting the playtime you like, then move on or change games.

Most casinos are happy to give you your payout percentage. If it's 50% or 150% It's not going to help you the next time you play. I've stopped depositing at some well known casinos lately because every time I do I lose my deposit as fast as I can spin. When I get that feeling from the casinos I am depositing at now, maybe I'll go back to the other ones.

Gambling starts when you decide which casino you're going to make your deposit at. After that all you can do is spin and hope for the best.

I know what you're saying, but the fact is it that RTP does make a difference over the long term.

For example, the difference between our land slots here (86-88%) and online slots (92-96%) is incredible. Put it this way.....I haven't touched my local slots for years and they are 5 mins away.

 

[skiny]

I know what you're saying, but the fact is it that RTP does make a difference over the long term.

For example, the difference between our land slots here (86-88%) and online slots (92-96%) is incredible. Put it this way.....I haven't touched my local slots for years and they are 5 mins away.

I think it would make a difference if you planned to pick one casino and just play there and nowhere else. Thankfully we have the option to move on when a casino just doesn't seem to be paying anymore.

 

[ChopleyIOM]

I think it would make a difference if you planned to pick one casino and just play there and nowhere else. Thankfully we have the option to move on when a casino just doesn't seem to be paying anymore.

But that's entirely the wrong way to look at it, (assuming that all casinos offer genuine random games with no memory and no forward planning), don't think of it as 'a good session at 32Red' and 'a bad session at 3Dice' and then next week it's 'a bad session at 32Red' and 'a good session at 3Dice' etc etc

Think of your entire online gambling career as ONE SINGLE EXTENDED SLOTS SESSION, whereby your RTP is the combined RTP of every single spin you've ever played on every single slot - and that is the figure that is your long-term 'real' RTP.

This is why RTP matters, because over enough spins your RTP will always approach the T-RTP of the slots you're playing. Play high RTP slots and over time you'll lose less, play lower RTP slots and you'll lose more, that's all there is to it.

Let's say Casino X pays out at 90% RTP and Casino Y pays out at 95% RTP.

If you only ever played at Casino Y, your RTP over the long term would be 95%. If you only ever played at Casino X, your RTP over the long term would be 90%. (i.e. you would lose more if you only ever played at Casino X).

If you mixed up your play between Casino X and Casino Y (which would be what a normal player would do in real life), your RTP will be a combination of the two. But the simple fact of the matter is that the more you play at Casino X compared to Casino Y, the more you will lose.

The ONLY way this won't be the case is if either or both casinos are not offering fair and entirely random games, so this is where you get into the realms of the theories of MG 'streakiness' and suchlike.

Put it this way, personally speaking I limit my play at Jackpot Party for the simple reason that all their base reel games pay out at 92% (I only play there at all because I really like the WMS slots), at the other end of the scale I can play NetEnt slots at 96-99% or the slots at Pinnacle at 97.5% - so to me it's absolute madness to get too involved at Jackpot Party and voluntarily chuck my money away, because over time that low 92% RTP WILL hurt my bankroll.


EDIT - This is why I make such a big fuss about RTPs in general, and very much prefer to play at casinos where RTPs are listed on a game-by-game basic, because I know that over time, and enough spins, the T-RTP for any given slot is what my RTP for that slot will approach. 'Bad and good' sessions are erroneous data and should be discarded, the only figure that matters is the T-RTP, because in the end, that's what you'll get - guaranteed.

 

[skiny]

The RTP at 32Red has nothing to do with the RTP at 3Dice.

I play where I will get paid without any hassle as quick as possible as long as I don't keep losing deposit after deposit.

Knowing your daily, weekly, lifetime RTP at every single casino you ever played at won't help you in the least the next time you spin.

 

[Nifty29]

The RTP at 32Red has nothing to do with the RTP at 3Dice.

I play where I will get paid without any hassle as quick as possible as long as I don't keep losing deposit after deposit.

Knowing your daily, weekly, lifetime RTP at every single casino you ever played at won't help you in the least the next time you spin.

You're missing chopleys point. When he says RTP he means Theoretical RTP not actual RTP. You're right in saying your actual RTP is irrelevant to your next spin, whereas the T-RTP is entirely relevant.

Playing where you get paid quickly and don't lose deposit after deposit is a personal choice and a fair one, but in the long term, if these places have lower T-RTPs, you will actually lose more than at other casinos. It may be that you're choosing payout speed and service over returns.

You can argue until you're blue in the face about what you think about the (lack of) effect of T-RTP, but you will always be wrong. We are talking about pure mathematics. The fact that you ignore them doesn't make them any less factual.

I'm not saying there's anything wrong with your choice, just that your insistence that RTP means nothing/little is misguided.

 

[09237653]

The first month of Bengal Tiger I had 47% RTP as confirmed by live chat.

 

[skiny]

You're missing chopleys point. When he says RTP he means Theoretical RTP not actual RTP. You're right in saying your actual RTP is irrelevant to your next spin, whereas the T-RTP is entirely relevant.

Playing where you get paid quickly and don't lose deposit after deposit is a personal choice and a fair one, but in the long term, if these places have lower T-RTPs, you will actually lose more than at other casinos. It may be that you're choosing payout speed and service over returns.

You can argue until you're blue in the face about what you think about the (lack of) effect of T-RTP, but you will always be wrong. We are talking about pure mathematics. The fact that you ignore them doesn't make them any less factual.

I'm not saying there's anything wrong with your choice, just that your insistence that RTP means nothing/little is misguided.

Well, the math may say differently but these advertised RTP's are calculated over millions of spins and not on a player by player basis. I could spin 500,000 times and have an 80% RTP and you could spin 500,000 times and have a 110% and knowing they advertise 97% never helped either one of us.

Even if you spun a million times and kept track of your RTP the entire time a thousand other people are playing the same game so the game could be paying 97% and unlucky you is only running 82%.

I'm sure you of all people know it's not the casino's fault that your RTP is no where near the advertised 97%.

 

[ChopleyIOM]

Well, the math may say differently but these advertised RTP's are calculated over millions of spins and not on a player by player basis. I could spin 500,000 times and have an 80% RTP and you could spin 500,000 times and have a 110% and knowing they advertise 97% never helped either one of us.

Even if you spun a million times and kept track of your RTP the entire time a thousand other people are playing the same game so the game could be paying 97% and unlucky you is only running 82%.

I'm sure you of all people know it's not the casino's fault that your RTP is no where near the advertised 97%.

You're still not getting it dude.

Think of every spin of an online slot as the spin of a roulette wheel, a random, independent event with no memory and no forward planning.

Let's say you only ever bet on the single number 26, some casinos only offer European roulette (one 0) and some casinos only offer American roulette (two 0s). Your RTP is better on European roulette as the house advantage is less.

Roulette reaches its T-RTP a lot quicker than slots, because the number of outcomes is massively reduced, but the principles behind the games are identical.

Over time, your T-RTP at the European roulette casinos is going to be 97.3%, and at the American roulette casinos it's going to be 94.8%. (You'll achieve these RTPs pretty quickly, and the more you play American roulette compared to European roulette, the more you'll lose.)

So if we go back to my example of Casino X and Casino Y before, exactly the same principles apply, it will take the slots much longer to reach their T-RTP, and indeed you may never play enough spins to see those T-RTPs achieved, but over time your results WILL gravitate towards the expected T-RTP and you WILL lose more at casinos that have lower T-RTPs.

Even if you spun a million times and kept track of your RTP the entire time a thousand other people are playing the same game so the game could be paying 97% and unlucky you is only running 82%.

This is potentially true, but the fact that other people are achieving 97% or 150% or whatever compared to your 82% is of no relevance whatsoever, random games are in no way compensated so the software doesn't 'know' that some people are winning so therefore some people have to lose. Every spin of every slot for every player is an entirely independent and random event.

The ONLY thing that determines how you're going to fare on a slot in the long term is the T-RTP, that's it. And that's why it is the single most important number when you're choosing a casino to play at and which games to play.

 

[Nifty29]

You're still not getting it dude.

Think of every spin of an online slot as the spin of a roulette wheel, a random, independent event with no memory and no forward planning.

Let's say you only ever bet on the single number 26, some casinos only offer European roulette (one 0) and some casinos only offer American roulette (two 0s). Your RTP is better on European roulette as the house advantage is less.

Roulette reaches its T-RTP a lot quicker than slots, because the number of outcomes is massively reduced, but the principles behind the games are identical.

Over time, your T-RTP at the European roulette casinos is going to be 97.3%, and at the American roulette casinos it's going to be 94.8%. (You'll achieve these RTPs pretty quickly, and the more you play American roulette compared to European roulette, the more you'll lose.)

So if we go back to my example of Casino X and Casino Y before, exactly the same principles apply, it will take the slots much longer to reach their T-RTP, and indeed you may never play enough spins to see those T-RTPs achieved, but over time your results WILL gravitate towards the expected T-RTP and you WILL lose more at casinos that have lower T-RTPs.



This is potentially true, but the fact that other people are achieving 97% or 150% or whatever compared to your 82% is of no relevance whatsoever, random games are in no way compensated so the software doesn't 'know' that some people are winning so therefore some people have to lose. Every spin of every slot for every player is an entirely independent and random event.

The ONLY thing that determines how you're going to fare on a slot in the long term is the T-RTP, that's it. And that's why it is the single most important number when you're choosing a casino to play at and which games to play.

Excellent post.

Some will never accept facts, which in this case are irrefutable.

 

[chuchu59]

Some of us may know the meaning of 'rtp' inside out but the more we know the less fun we are likely to have as it simply tells us we must lose given the house edge. Just play on and disregard it and you may find the slots entertaining.

 

[skiny]

Except that it's pretty rare that any player anywhere playing at any casino ever is running the T-RTP for that particular casino. 5 to 10% over under is pretty normal I would think.

I can see you saying your chances are better if the RTP is 97% here and 94% there mathmatically but I prefer to believe my chances are pretty good that I'll go way over that. That's how I make withdrawals. And if the chances are pretty good that I'll go way over the chances are probably better that I'll go way under.

And I still say, in the end knowing it didn't help me in the least. That's the beauty and the curse of random events. No matter what you know something else usually happens anyway.

 

[Tirilej]

I agree with Skiny here.

Put them all in 91%, 95% or 97%. I still don't care and play where I feel for it the moment I want to play.
I know I will lose over time, but, in the meantime I will lose some and also have some huge winnings.

I can't chose casino over its RTP since I have no control over how much I have played in that casino particulary over time.
Does any of you know? If you don't then I don't think it matters in the long run anyway.

Thinking about it you would need to know how much for each game in each casino
Wouldn't it spoil all the fun?

 

[Nifty29]

Except that it's pretty rare that any player anywhere playing at any casino ever is running the T-RTP for that particular casino. 5 to 10% over under is pretty normal I would think.

I can see you saying your chances are better if the RTP is 97% here and 94% there mathmatically but I prefer to believe my chances are pretty good that I'll go way over that. That's how I make withdrawals. And if the chances are pretty good that I'll go way over the chances are probably better that I'll go way under.

And I still say, in the end knowing it didn't help me in the least. That's the beauty and the curse of random events. No matter what you know something else usually happens anyway.

Yes.....and if you're playing at a 94% casino your RTP will be 84% and if you're playing at a 97% casino then your RTP will be 97%....so which is the better option?

You can talk about ignoring TRTP and just playing where you feel like, and that's your choice, but it doesn't change the fact that in the long term you will lose more playing at casinos with lower RTP. It's not a POV or an argument or an opinion....it is a fact.

The fact that you are ahead at some points and behind at others is down to variance not RTP. The lower the variance the less the pendulum swings either way, but when the programmed RTP is lower, you will lose more over time. Again, a fact.

Nobody said that knowing all of this affects the outcome of each single spin. It affects your overall spins cumulatively. You're just clutching at straws trying to argue against known facts and its beginning to sound a little silly and not something I would expect from someone who I know is smarter than that.

Knowing the facts about RTP DOES make a difference to your chances of winning by allowing you to make the right choice about where you play and gives you the opportunity to reduce the edge that the house has against you. Anyone who thinks that is unimportant is the old fool there's no fool like (proverbially).

 

[Tirilej]

@Nifty
I can't speak for anyone else but myself, but I do understand perfectly what you are saying, and I believe it really would matter, if every casino had the same payout%. They don't.

If you or I had the choice to play at Inetbet that had 95% or at Jackpot Capital that had 97%, I believe both of us would chose Inetbet anyway. We would take the chance, just because they pay faster and we wouldn't feel cheated anyway.

The same goes for every casino we chose to play at. Of course we would like all casinos to be set at 99%, but since they aren't we have to chose what is best for us anyway.
Does that make me an old fool? Maybe I am because winning isn't the most important thing for me.
Not even in the long run, since I know I will lose anyway.

That doesn't mean I don't think it's not important with RTP,TRTP or anything else, but I chose to let you worry about that, and I will continue to have fun playing wherever I want to.

 

[Jasminebed]

The RTP on a game is not the only factor at play here. If it was, none of us would be playing slots.

A casino's loyalty program, free chips, bonuses, cashback, can all boost a player's individual RTP to be competive with another offering higher payback on the slots.

I simply enjoy some games more than others as well. For me that's an essential part of the gambling experience.

 

[Nifty29]

@Nifty
I can't speak for anyone else but myself, but I do understand perfectly what you are saying, and I believe it really would matter, if every casino had the same payout%. They don't.

If you or I had the choice to play at Inetbet that had 95% or at Jackpot Capital that had 97%, I believe both of us would chose Inetbet anyway. We would take the chance, just because they pay faster and we wouldn't feel cheated anyway.

The same goes for every casino we chose to play at. Of course we would like all casinos to be set at 99%, but since they aren't we have to chose what is best for us anyway.
Does that make me an old fool? Maybe I am because winning isn't the most important thing for me.
Not even in the long run, since I know I will lose anyway.

That doesn't mean I don't think it's not important with RTP,TRTP or anything else, but I chose to let you worry about that, and I will continue to have fun playing wherever I want to.

Actually, if all casinos were the same, it would NOT matter. You choose the 95% over the 97% because of faster payouts, which is fine. However, what you're really doing is sacrificing better payouts for faster payouts. It's a trade off, but it doesn't change the fact that a higher RTP means the house edge is less which means that you lose less

Jasmine touched on an interesting point. Promos, bonuses etc all make a difference at the end of the day and have an effect on our RTP overall at the end of the day. However, once again the RTP of the actual games are vital when assessing whether one is really getting a good deal or not. If you play at a 97% casino and continually take -EV bonuses, you are giving the casino a higher edge, to such a point that one may be better off playing a 95% casino with no bonus or with some +EV offers. It's a known fact that higher RTP casinos offer less attractive bonuses, or in some cases very few bonuses at all. Now, my question to skiny and others is why is this the case if RTP really doesn't mean anything?

We make choices regarding play based on promos and service and payouts etc.....sure we all do to some degree, but none of these decisions can be sound ones without knowing where your starting point is.....and that starting point is TRTP.

 

[Tirilej]

If I say it like this instead. I don't think it has been one month since I started playing that I didn't have a single cashout.
I used to take bonuses, now I rarily use them, more than on 32Red's casinos. Not to win but to get playtime.

I have no clue if I'm up or below when it comes to winnings, since I take out a lot when I'm winning larger amounts.

I don't know the RTP for any of the casinos I play at. I have never bothered to find out. I'm doing fine anyway.
Can you see it from my point of view now?

If I didn't win anytime, then I might would start thinking about it, but I'll wait until that happen

 

[skiny]

Actually, if all casinos were the same, it would NOT matter. You choose the 95% over the 97% because of faster payouts, which is fine. However, what you're really doing is sacrificing better payouts for faster payouts. It's a trade off, but it doesn't change the fact that a higher RTP means the house edge is less which means that you lose less

Jasmine touched on an interesting point. Promos, bonuses etc all make a difference at the end of the day and have an effect on our RTP overall at the end of the day. However, once again the RTP of the actual games are vital when assessing whether one is really getting a good deal or not. If you play at a 97% casino and continually take -EV bonuses, you are giving the casino a higher edge, to such a point that one may be better off playing a 95% casino with no bonus or with some +EV offers. It's a known fact that higher RTP casinos offer less attractive bonuses, or in some cases very few bonuses at all. Now, my question to skiny and others is why is this the case if RTP really doesn't mean anything?

We make choices regarding play based on promos and service and payouts etc.....sure we all do to some degree, but none of these decisions can be sound ones without knowing where your starting point is.....and that starting point is TRTP.

Because you're talking about theoretical RTP not guaranteed RTP over the entire casino. I might be running 10% over where it's 94% and you might be running 10% under where it's 97% or vice versa because there is no guarantee that either of us will ever see the theoretical RTP at any casino. And even if every random event at every casino actually followed the mathematical probabilities which is very unlikely you're still only talking about a 3% higher payout over millions of spins. There is a slim chance this might make a difference in the long run but there is a better chance that faster, no hassle payouts and good service will make more of a difference the entire life of your membership at any casino.

Some casinos may offer better bonuses because they offer lower RTPs but I think most casinos offer bigger bonuses for the sole purpose of attracting players away from other casinos in general and the bigger the bonus the worse the terms and conditions is a pretty good general rule so you're probably no further ahead either way.

Microgaming casinos may have a higher RTP than RTG or Playtech casinos but after literally thousands of deposits I'm lucky if I can exceed my starting balance once in a while by 20 bucks almost every time I play these games. You might do quite well playing them but knowing the RTP won't change any of it. Every gambling session is just a massive string of random events (or at least it's supposed to be.) Play where you're comfortable and you know you won't have any hassle getting paid and you'll be more likely to enjoy your experience. Bog yourself down in mathematics and you're no longer playing just for the entertainment. When that happens you're probably better off not playing anyway.

 

[ChopleyIOM]

Because you're talking about theoretical RTP not guaranteed RTP over the entire casino.

Theoretical RTP and 'Guaranteed RTP' are exactly the same thing, the only difference between them is the number of spins.

T-RTP is calculated over millions of spins, 'G-RTP' (for want of a better way of phrasing it) can fluctuate widely in the plus or minus direction, especially early on, but the more spins you make, the closer your actual RTP will get to the T-RTP.

I might be running 10% over where it's 94% and you might be running 10% under where it's 97% or vice versa because there is no guarantee that either of us will ever see the theoretical RTP at any casino.

Wrong.

Over enough spins you WILL achieve the T-RTP, this is absolutely fundamental mathematics skiny, it really is. It's not up for debate, it's a simple fact.

(I mean, how do you think Microgaming or 3Dice or anyone else work out whether a new slot will lose money or make them money? They calculate the T-RTP!)

Choose lower RTP games and you'll lose more, choose higher RTP games and you'll still lose, but you'll lose less and it'll take you longer to do so.

And even if every random event at every casino actually followed the mathematical probabilities which is very unlikely you're still only talking about a 3% higher payout over millions of spins.

A casino with 94% slots takes your money twice as fast as a casino with 97% slots, when you get up into 90%+ RTPs, small changes in numbers can make a big difference.

You don't need millions of spins for that kind of difference to make itself felt.

Microgaming casinos may have a higher RTP than RTG or Playtech casinos but after literally thousands of deposits I'm lucky if I can exceed my starting balance once in a while by 20 bucks almost every time I play these games. You might do quite well playing them but knowing the RTP won't change any of it. Every gambling session is just a massive string of random events (or at least it's supposed to be.) Play where you're comfortable and you know you won't have any hassle getting paid and you'll be more likely to enjoy your experience. Bog yourself down in mathematics and you're no longer playing just for the entertainment. When that happens you're probably better off not playing anyway.

With all due respect skiny it's entirely possible to be interested in, and understand, the maths behind random games - and still find them entertaining. Yes we all 'walk through the door' as it were with the same knowledge that we're all going to lose in the long run - but 'how we lose' is an important factor, no one likes to feel that they've been robbed in the pursuit of entertainment.

It's not a question of being 'bogged down in mathematics', it's a question of knowing how to realise that as a player, you're getting the shaft.

 

[skiny]

Over enough spins you WILL achieve the T-RTP, this is absolutely fundamental mathematics skiny, it really is. It's not up for debate, it's a simple fact

Well, hopefully I won't spin long enough to be guaranteed a 97% RTP.

Who wants a guaranteed loss?

 

[ChopleyIOM]

Well, hopefully I won't spin long enough to be guaranteed a 97% RTP.

Who wants a guaranteed loss?

If you don't want to lose, then don't deposit at all.

The only certainty with random online slots is that you'll lose in the long run, it's guaranteed

 

[skiny]

I think we need someone here to who really knows how the software works.

You're talking about theoretical RTP of the entire casino and assuming that your RTP will eventually achieve this if you play long enough. It MIGHT but you're not the only person playing. A million spins on every one of these games happened years ago. A million spins since I started playing on every one of these games happens on a regular basis. I just don't believe that every single person that spins whatever the casino feels is a good sample, be it a million or 10 million spins is going to be sitting at that magic 97%. Random event just don't happen that way. 97% means the casino has a 3% house edge. That means that eventually, mathematically, the house will come out ahead. It doesn't mean that ANY one player will eventually achieve a 97% RTP if they play long enough. You could achieve it after one session. You could achieve it 20 times a year and then move away from it again. You may never finish any session in your life with a lifetime RTP of exactly 97%.

I've designed slots myself for hobby's sake. I've let the program run in text based mode millions of "spins" calculating the RTP. There is no magic spot where it is guaranteed to hit the theoretical RTP. It fluctuates and that is with ONE "person" spinning. 100 spins might be 97%, 10,000 spins might hit it again, 15,000 spins might be 70% and a million spins might be 110%.

I'm not saying that your "odds" aren't better if you play at a casino with an advertised +3% RTP over one with -3% RTP. I'm saying that there never is and never will be any guarantees when you're dealing with random events.

There is however a guarantee you will get paid if you do win provided you play at the right casino.

 

[skiny]

If you don't want to lose, then don't deposit at all.

The only certainty with random online slots is that you'll lose in the long run, it's guaranteed

Who "wants to lose?" Find me ONE player that WANTS to lose? Now who is being silly?

 

[ChopleyIOM]

Who "wants to lose?" Find me ONE player that WANTS to lose? Now who is being silly?

It's not a question of 'wanting' to lose, the fact is that playing random games with a house edge, the player will always lose in the long run.

The only variables are how much, and how fast.

 

[Nifty29]

It's not a question of 'wanting' to lose, the fact is that playing random games with a house edge, the player will always lose in the long run.

The only variables are how much, and how fast.

It doesn't matter what you say chopley. Skiny will come back with another argument testifying to the fact that he doesn't get it, or is pretending not to get it so he doesn't have to admit that someone else is right.

I mean, to say that over x amount of spins the RTP was X% and over the next x soins the RTP was totally different just shows he's not even almost there. Of course the CURRENT RTP will change in real time. If it didn't, nobody would play a casino game as every bet would pay 95% (e.g.) of your bet back every single time....its why games have variance I.e. there are opportunities to win and to lose on any given bet, but the longer you play the closer you get to TRTP.

CURRENT/REALTIME RTP is a totally different discussion as it is based on events already happened.

Anyway, you can keep hitting your head against the wall chops but I've reiterated the FACTS enough already. I dont know why skiny won't admit he doesn't understand....there's no shame in it, and its better than putting forward flawed arguments that ignore reality altogether.

 

[skiny]

It doesn't matter what you say chopley. Skiny will come back with another argument testifying to the fact that he doesn't get it, or is pretending not to get it so he doesn't have to admit that someone else is right.

I mean, to say that over x amount of spins the RTP was X% and over the next x soins the RTP was totally different just shows he's not even almost there. Of course the CURRENT RTP will change in real time. If it didn't, nobody would play a casino game as every bet would pay 95% (e.g.) of your bet back every single time....its why games have variance I.e. there are opportunities to win and to lose on any given bet, but the longer you play the closer you get to TRTP.

CURRENT/REALTIME RTP is a totally different discussion as it is based on events already happened.

Anyway, you can keep hitting your head against the wall chops but I've reiterated the FACTS enough already. I dont know why skiny won't admit he doesn't understand....there's no shame in it, and its better than putting forward flawed arguments that ignore reality altogether.

I think you should know by now those kind of backhanded insults don't work with me. I shrug them off, usually with a grin.

What you guys don't seem to understand is theoretical return to player is the casinos return to ALL players. There could be a thousand people playing at any given time and over time theoretically the casino will payout 97% to everyone combined. There is NO guarantee that any ONE particular player will EVER see the advertised theoretical RTP no matter how long that player spins. The games are totally random, the outcomes are totally random. There's a reason it's called "theoretical" RTP and not "guaranteed" RTP. They are not the same thing. There is no casino on this planet that will guarantee you an RTP no matter how long you play because nobody is supposed to know the outcome of any amount of game play.

I fully understand that you're saying your CHANCES are better if the theoretical RTP is higher but that guarantees you absolutely nothing.

 

[Tirilej]

This is obviously a discussion Chop/Nifty - Skiny, but I can't help myself being an old foolish lady to interfere anyway

Have it ever accured to you Chop/Nifty that you can be wrong?
I see what Skiny is saying so clear and I can't stop thinking that you are just refusing to see it.

No need to insulting him like you do Nifty wether he cares or not, because it doesn't make what you are saying more right.

We have different way of seing things, and about this, we will just not agree.
Accept that, but don't ever think that anyone is stupid, or foolish or anything negative just for seing things differently.

 

[Nifty29]

This is obviously a discussion Chop/Nifty - Skiny, but I can't help myself being an old foolish lady to interfere anyway

Have it ever accured to you Chop/Nifty that you can be wrong?
I see what Skiny is saying so clear and I can't stop thinking that you are just refusing to see it.

No need to insulting him like you do Nifty wether he cares or not, because it doesn't make what you are saying more right.

We have different way of seing things, and about this, we will just not agree.
Accept that, but don't ever think that anyone is stupid, or foolish or anything negative just for seing things differently.

I can and do admit when I am wrong when required. I always have.

The discussion around TRTP is not about opinions or "ways of looking at things". TRTP is about mathematical facts. Pure and simple.

Saying that TRTP has no impact on one's gambling is inherently incorrect. The fact that one can expect to lose more playing lower TRTP games is just that - a fact. It's not arguable. We know other things impact our bottom line, but TRTP absolutely must be considered in making intelligent gambling choices.

For example, if one casino pays normal roulette odds, and the other also normal except that a single number pays 33-1. Which game are you going to choose? Skiny and yourself say the 33-1 option because you get paid quicker, or its easier to deposit and other non-mathematical reason.....your choice of the latter means you can expect to lose more in the long run. You won't be in the red at every given moment, and your results won't be around the TRTP all the time or even much at all......which skiny says is the reason why TRTP should be ignored, because you'll probably never achieve that exact figure I.e. you'll more likely be x% lower. Well, that may be the case, but it doesn't change the fact that you can expect to lose $50 out of every $1000 wagered @95% and $30 @97%. No big deal at that level, but multiply that to represent how much you wager in a year, and we are talking about thousands or even tens of thousands.

If a casino tells you that it is likely you will lose $5,000 a year and another tells you $3,000 a year, only a fool would choose the former.

 

[Tirilej]

...and I still doesn't agree, no matter how much you tell me it's fact

Just like we always say, some win and some lose.
I need you to look at the bigger picture. Just like Skiny said, that it's about the return to all players in all casinos.

Some goes in, winning, never to return.
Some are always losing, no matter how they play.
Some are winning a lot, because of luck or because of how they play.
Some are like me, and is probably even.

I know someone in this forum that have played for free for almost two years now. He plays a lot, but is a lowroller. Different casinos, with or without bonuses. Maybe he will lose in the end, maybe not, but admit that it's incredible.

What he is winning someone else is losing and that is how it will be.

For me it's random, about being lucky or not, and about how you play.

You can probably type till your fingers are broken. I will still not agree with you.

 

[dionysus]

Ok, I have a Q. I thought microgaming set the RTP of their games. If this is true, and it's set across all the micro casinos, how do they advertise different RTPs?

 

[Nifty29]

...and I still doesn't agree, no matter how much you tell me it's fact

Just like we always say, some win and some lose.
I need you to look at the bigger picture. Just like Skiny said, that it's about the return to all players in all casinos.

Some goes in, winning, never to return.
Some are always losing, no matter how they play.
Some are winning a lot, because of luck or because of how they play.
Some are like me, and is probably even.

I know someone in this forum that have played for free for almost two years now. He plays a lot, but is a lowroller. Different casinos, with or without bonuses. Maybe he will lose in the end, maybe not, but admit that it's incredible.

What he is winning someone else is losing and that is how it will be.

For me it's random, about being lucky or not, and about how you play.

You can probably type till your fingers are broken. I will still not agree with you.

We'll just agree that you're wrong then

Your friend playing without depositing cannot lose because he isn't risking his own money...their play will still be influenced by the TRTP of the games, but he won't experience a "loss" over time because he started with 0 and can only end up with 0 at worst. I know what you're saying, but using this example as you did shows that you aren't grasping TRTP. It has nothing to do with how much you deposit or cash out.....you're talking about profit and loss which totally different.

Ok, I have a Q. I thought microgaming set the RTP of their games. If this is true, and it's set across all the micro casinos, how do they advertise different RTPs?

The advertised RTP's in some casinos are ACTUAL RTPs i.e. what the running RTP is at a given point.

Some casinos advertise TRTP which is a set figure by MGS which is what the game will pay out over time....not what it has already paid out. Hope that helps

 

[Tirilej]

We'll just agree that you're wrong then

I would have if we all were just playing in the same casino, but since we are not then I'm not wrong

 

[skiny]

Nifty still seems to have this deluded idea that every player is guaranteed to achieve the theoretical RTP after an undetermined but incredibly large amount of spins. If that was true the games would not be random. You have a 3% better chance of winning if the T-RTP is 97% instead of 94% over this incredibly large amount of spins but it is simply impossible to guarantee anything that happens randomly. It doesn't matter if it happens randomly once or 10 million times you still cannot guarantee it.

I keep saying the "chances" are better but the word chance in itself guarantees you nothing. On a roulette wheel you have a 1 in 37 chance of hitting the zero. You could theoretically hit that zero on the 38th or 39th or 50th spin a million times in a row. The odds say it will eventually even out to once in 37 spins but there is NO guarantee this will happen.

Nifty seems to be willing to completely disregard the fact that every spin, roll or deal is totally random and as long as that is the case there is absolutely no way anyone can guarantee anything. Compound that with the fact that most people play at several different casinos using several different casino softwares all of which are supposed to be totally random.

So stricktly picking casinos that have a 3% better CHANCE over millions of spins might sound like a great idea mathematically but personally I would PREFER to play at casinos that give me a 100% better chance of getting paid quickly and hassle free.

 

[chuchu59]

I come back after work and having endured atrocious weather conditions to see you guys are still at it. Lets just say we all have different opinions and enjoy whatever one wants.

 

[Nifty29]

Nifty still seems to have this deluded idea that every player is guaranteed to achieve the theoretical RTP after an undetermined but incredibly large amount of spins. If that was true the games would not be random. You have a 3% better chance of winning if the T-RTP is 97% instead of 94% over this incredibly large amount of spins but it is simply impossible to guarantee anything that happens randomly. It doesn't matter if it happens randomly once or 10 million times you still cannot guarantee it.

I keep saying the "chances" are better but the word chance in itself guarantees you nothing. On a roulette wheel you have a 1 in 37 chance of hitting the zero. You could theoretically hit that zero on the 38th or 39th or 50th spin a million times in a row. The odds say it will eventually even out to once in 37 spins but there is NO guarantee this will happen.

Nifty seems to be willing to completely disregard the fact that every spin, roll or deal is totally random and as long as that is the case there is absolutely no way anyone can guarantee anything. Compound that with the fact that most people play at several different casinos using several different casino softwares all of which are supposed to be totally random.

So stricktly picking casinos that have a 3% better CHANCE over millions of spins might sound like a great idea mathematically but personally I would PREFER to play at casinos that give me a 100% better chance of getting paid quickly and hassle free.

You're making stuff up again.

Where did I say that your personal RTP would be exactly the TRTP? I didn't say anything about guarantees at all.

Where did I say the spins weren't random? I didn't. TRTP has nothing to do with the randomness of each spin.

I also mentioned, and you've ignored it along with anything else that doesn't fit your flawed argument, that other things like promos and cashout speed are other considerations when choosing where to play. However, choosing a lower TRTP casino based solely on faster or easier payouts means you ARE sacrificing a better chance to win to get those things.

Another fact. You say each spin is random. I agree. Consider a simple 3 reel 1 line slot with 20 stops on each reel. One casino has 2 jackpot symbols on each reel, the other has 2 on the first two reels and 1 on the last. The second casino is providing you with a game with a lower TRTP.....which means your chances of winning are LESS.

Slice it how you like, and choose where to play using whatever criteria you like. Fine. It doesn't change the fact that lower TRTP means less chance of winning. Who plays where and whether you play different software etc is irrelevant.....TRTP has the same meaning anywhere and everywhere.

 

[ChopleyIOM]

Nifty still seems to have this deluded idea that every player is guaranteed to achieve the theoretical RTP after an undetermined but incredibly large amount of spins. If that was true the games would not be random. You have a 3% better chance of winning if the T-RTP is 97% instead of 94% over this incredibly large amount of spins but it is simply impossible to guarantee anything that happens randomly. It doesn't matter if it happens randomly once or 10 million times you still cannot guarantee it.

I keep saying the "chances" are better but the word chance in itself guarantees you nothing. On a roulette wheel you have a 1 in 37 chance of hitting the zero. You could theoretically hit that zero on the 38th or 39th or 50th spin a million times in a row. The odds say it will eventually even out to once in 37 spins but there is NO guarantee this will happen.

Nifty seems to be willing to completely disregard the fact that every spin, roll or deal is totally random and as long as that is the case there is absolutely no way anyone can guarantee anything. Compound that with the fact that most people play at several different casinos using several different casino softwares all of which are supposed to be totally random.

So stricktly picking casinos that have a 3% better CHANCE over millions of spins might sound like a great idea mathematically but personally I would PREFER to play at casinos that give me a 100% better chance of getting paid quickly and hassle free.

I'll have one last go at getting across an irrefutable mathematical fact, just because I'm stubborn.

Theoretical RTP, 'guaranteed' RTP (whatever that's supposed to be), and your 'actual' RTP are all EXACTLY THE SAME THING. The only difference between them is the number of spins.

T-RTP will be achieved after hundreds of thousands of spins, maybe even millions of spins on very high variance or progressive slots, but it absolutely WILL be achieved, and that is guaranteed. This is how software providers design their slots, they need to know that the T-RTP is correct and has a house edge, otherwise they might kick a slot out of the door that pays out more than 100%, which is obviously a very bad thing from their perspective. (This is also why providers can easily provide an RTP to as many decimal places as they wish, Galewind stop at two decimal places for example Link Removed ( Old/Invalid) - but they could take it down to figures like 97.45723457824612853% if they wished to. That's maths. It's fact. You Really. Can't. Argue. With. It.)

Any single player, playing enough spins through a single slot, will achieve the T-RTP, and it will therefore be the same as his actual individual RTP for this slot. Any talk of 'other people' playing the same slots or at the same casinos and some winning or some losing has got absolutely nothing to do with it whatsoever. What other people do, how many of them there are doing it, and when or where they're doing it, has NO INFLUENCE at all at what happens to any other player at any time.

Random games rely completely on them achieving their T-RTP over time, this is guaranteed for the casinos and it is why they always win, and it is why any half decent casino shouldn't care at all if a player makes bets using a 'system' or a 'robot' or anything else - because the inherent house edge can never be consistently beaten over time because random numbers will achieve the T-RTP.

So how many spins do we make as players? Over an individual session it may just be a few hundred, over a week or a month you could be into the realms of thousands or tens of thousands, over a year perhaps hundreds of thousands. Over a lifetime of playing slots it's entirely possible that an individual player will play MILLIONS of spins on slots, and they're the sort of numbers whereby T-RTP will start to be achieved, and they're the sort of numbers whereby if you consistently choose lower RTP casinos over higher RTP casinos just because you get paid faster - you are effectively setting fire to thousands if not tens of thousands of dollars over a gambling career.

Over a big enough sample set, luck has absolutely nothing to do with it, random numbers will do their job, and you'll achieve closer and closer to the T-RTP, so the only variable in there is how much you lose, and how fast you lose it. Play lower RTP slots, and you'll lose more, and you'll lose it faster.

To claim anything else you may as well argue that the earth is flat, because that's the level of wrongness that you're arguing for.

 

[Tirilej]

Then I wonder if an old slots TRTP is carried over to a new one?
I know it sounds stupid Chopley, but there is probably no chance at all that many of us will reach the actual TRTP that are set on a certain slot in my lifetime of playing.
Why? I don't only change casino and software all the time, I change games also. There are constantly coming new games that we play.
Some old ones are maybe removed, but it's so extremly many to chose from so how will I ever alone reach that milions of millions of spin on one single game?

The games TRTP is probably reached were it should be reached, but not by me alone. Not possible.

Even if it did and there comes the fast payments I rather chose in, I still would chose that.
The faster I get my money, the faster I can play and win or lose again. Sitting on my butt waiting six days for Jackpot Capital to pay me is not a choice for me no matter how high their payout% is.

 

[ChopleyIOM]

Then I wonder if an old slots TRTP is carried over to a new one?
I know it sounds stupid Chopley, but there is probably no chance at all that many of us will reach the actual TRTP that are set on a certain slot in my lifetime of playing.
Why? I don't only change casino and software all the time, I change games also. There are constantly coming new games that we play.
Some old ones are maybe removed, but it's so extremly many to chose from so how will I ever alone reach that milions of millions of spin on one single game?

The games TRTP is probably reached were it should be reached, but not by me alone. Not possible.

You need to stop thinking of each slot and each session and each casino as single entities. Think of every spin on every slot at every casino as a single extended gambling session, as that's what they effectively are, since they have no influence on each other, they have no 'memory' and they don't 'plan for the future' either.

As such, your RTP over a lifetime of gambling is governed by the T-RTPs of the games you choose to play, you don't particularly have to worry about whether or not you ever achieve the T-RTP on any particular slot, as it's not relevant. What WILL happen is that over time your overall RTP will gravitate towards the T-RTPs of the games you're playing, the more low RTP games you chuck into the mix, the lower your return will be over time and the more you'll lose.

Making a playing choice based on other factors ('they pay me quickly' or 'I like the games') is entirely reasonable and a personal choice. I still play the odd session at Jackpot Party just because I really like the WMS slots, but I do so in the knowledge that the low 92% RTP on the base games is going to hurt my bankroll more over time than playing at Pinnacle, where all the slots are up at 97.5% RTP. That's why I tend to limit myself to small individual deposits at Jackpot Party and don't get involved in long sessions, because the longer I play, the more that 92% RTP will inevitably hurt me.

With all due respect Tirilej, all that me and Nifty are trying to get across here is that playing lower T-RTP games will absolutely and inevitably cost you more in the long run than playing higher T-RTP games. That's not to say that your reasons for choosing lower RTP games are invalid - (as I said, I readily admit to playing lower RTP games at Jackpot Party just because I really like the slots) - but trying to argue against the mathematical certainties involved in doing so is simply not a sustainable position.

 

[Tirilej]

I'm sure you both are smarter than me, and you know about these things a lot more. You also have it easier since you can express what you mean in your own language

I do fully understand what you are saying, and I have no doubt about me going to lose in the long run. I knew that before I ever had heard of RTP, T-RTP, RNG.
I know a lot more about everything that has to do with gambling now, and I knew a lot before

What you are saying is probably true, but it can not make me think differently anyway.
I would never let that affect the choices I make, since I believe so many other factors are involved, and the most important thing.
It would ruin the fun of it.
I'm escaping the world and enjoying myself, and that is good enough for me.

I would say to everyone that don't really get it...right now it's not so important anyway

 

[skiny]

You're making stuff up again.

Where did I say that your personal RTP would be exactly the TRTP? I didn't say anything about guarantees at all.

Where did I say the spins weren't random? I didn't. TRTP has nothing to do with the randomness of each spin.

I also mentioned, and you've ignored it along with anything else that doesn't fit your flawed argument, that other things like promos and cashout speed are other considerations when choosing where to play. However, choosing a lower TRTP casino based solely on faster or easier payouts means you ARE sacrificing a better chance to win to get those things.

Another fact. You say each spin is random. I agree. Consider a simple 3 reel 1 line slot with 20 stops on each reel. One casino has 2 jackpot symbols on each reel, the other has 2 on the first two reels and 1 on the last. The second casino is providing you with a game with a lower TRTP.....which means your chances of winning are LESS.

Slice it how you like, and choose where to play using whatever criteria you like. Fine. It doesn't change the fact that lower TRTP means less chance of winning. Who plays where and whether you play different software etc is irrelevant.....TRTP has the same meaning anywhere and everywhere.

I'm too lazy to go back and look over the last 5 pages since I just got home from work but you've been agreeing with and thanking every single post that most definitely says that every single player will be guaranteed to reach the theoretical RTP.

If you have 10 thousand players all playing at one casino it would simply be impossible for the casino to guarantee that every single one of them will eventually reach a perfect 97% life time RTP. If any casino can do this the spins aren't random. Look above this post. you'll find ANOTHER post that says that it doesn't even matter if you change games every time you play you are STILL gauranteed to reach the theoretical RTP. EVERY player is GUARANTEED to reach the theoretical RTP and it even says that theoretical and guaranteed are exactly the same thing.

I'm not even going to bother with this anymore because it's just silly. Go ask Enzo or someone to come and verify this. Maybe someone will believe him when I say that if a game is truly random there is NO way to guarantee anything..... ever.

 

[binary128]

This post from Jufo is rather on point. Indeed, the entire thread is rather on point.

Given a T-RTP, a Standard Deviation, and a spin count, X players will see Y RTP.

 

[ChopleyIOM]

This post from Jufo is rather on point. Indeed, the entire thread is rather on point.

Given a T-RTP, a Standard Deviation, and a spin count, X players will see Y RTP.

Thanks Chris, did we ever arrive on a 'ballpark' figure for the number of spins required to safely get close to T-RTP on slots?

(Accepting that even that figure will change massively depending on the variance of the slots played.)

 

[skiny]

Try it 10 thousand times just as there are 10 thousand players and you will see that at some point every one of those attempts will achieve the theoretical RTP randomly just as they will achieve much less than it and much more than it.

And if a player played at the same casino for an undetermined amount of time it IS likely that that player will achieve the theoretical RTP just like if you left a hundred monkeys in front of a hundred typewriters for a hundred years eventually you’d manage to get a Shakespearean sonnet.

It's bound to happen.

But not every player is going to continually play the same games at the same casino.

My two points right from the beginning were that if you play at a casino with a 97% RTP instead of a 94% RTP your chances will be better. The odds will be better but there ARE NO guarantees. There are never guarantees when you deal with random events unless you plan to spend the next 10 weeks, 10 months or 10 years waiting for the law of averages to kick in.

My second point was that in my opinion you're better off to play where you're more likely to get paid without any hassles. You eat at a fine restaurant because of the service and you pay for it. You buy a more expensive item because of the quality and you pay for it so if a casino with much better service and better quality support offers a percent or two lower odds, I am of the opinion that I'm better off in the long run playing there.