Well done, ClubDice! You rule!

[Anne_66]

After reading so many postings about casinos that just don't pay their customers, or keeping them on a string, I must single out the ClubDice Casino for praise.

After winning a total of $22,000 within a couple of weeks, I requested a cash-out. They wanted me to send them copies of my cc, ID and a bank statement. I did so and I received two checks of $5,000 each only about 10 days later, sent by regular mail. I was very pleased as I expected some difficulties because I won $17,000 on my first day, playing with the bonus they provided me. I only made a payment of $75,00 as I was actually afraid of playing online.

Due to their new-members-regulations ($10,000 monthly cash-out-limit for new players) I had to wait another four weeks in order to receive the rest of my money. Last week I requested a further cash-out of $8,000 (1x $5,000 and a few days later another $3,000). This time I chose "express mail" which costs $35,00 for each check.

On Friday 23rd April they sent a mail telling me that both checks are approved and will be sent out immediately. Today morning (Tuesday, 27th April) I received one check of $7965,00 Not only that this was extremly fast but also very kind sending me only one check of the total amount in order to save me $35,00 :notworthy

That's what I call customer service! Their 24hours online-support always is very friendly and all my mails to their support has been answered within a few hours. This, and their fair T&Cs (deposit & bonus has to be wagered only 4 times in order to be cashed out) convinces me that there's no good reason for me to play in any other online casino. Great job, ClubDice! Thanks alot!

 

[sirius]

This casino is nowhere near as good as you seem to believe. I played here last year and decided to return today because I had $471 in the account that I couldnt withdraw (I should have been able to withdraw $171) and wanted to know how much I would need to have in the account to withdraw anything. I explained this in another thread and how they fraudulanty made the whole balance non-withdrawable, probably whilst processing a previous cashout.

The thread was here and you seemed to prefer not to reply to it and start a new one: https://www.casinomeister.com/forums/threads/clubdicecasino-not-reputable-dont-think-so.4181/?t=4181

When I played there originally, I received a bonus of about $130. The time I played, the bonuses weren't removed from cashouts and were there to be played with after cashing out. I cashed out a small profit of about $50 but lost all the $130 bonus left in the account.

The next time I played I got $300 worth of bonuses for $300 of deposits. This time I also cashed out a small profit but didn't win any bets with the $300 bonus left in the account.

The final time I deposited was for a similar promotion to the last one. I deposited $300 and received $300 of bonuses. The rules were exactly the same and the bonus was to be left in the account after withdrawing.

The problem was I couldn't withdraw anything. I wagered the required amount over a few days (in the meantime I was expecting the previous withdrawel to be processed which it was) and had made a loss of $129. I was on $471 but should have been able to withdraw $171 (only $300 was the non-withdrawable bonus).

This promotion was effectively the same as the previous one where I finished on $650, withdrew $350 and left the $300 bonus in the account. I never had luck with the bonuses here and didn't win any bets with the $300 bonus so my balance was zero before playing this subsequent and last promotion I took part in.

What must have happened (I have conclusive evidence today), is that after processing the withdrawel of $350 from the previous promotion, they decided to make my whole balance in my casino account non-withdrawable. Remember only $300 was a bonus and I should have been able to withdraw the excess balance after completing the wagering requirements.

I had no luck with support. They finally said it was the decision of the finance department and they couldn't give me any details (at first they though it could be a technical error until they heard from the finance department). I didn't even know how much I needed to have in my account to withdraw anything.

That is until today!! I played there for the first time in over 6 months and quickly took my balance from $471 to $601. Remember that $300 is my deposit and $300 is the non-cashable bonus. I should therefore be able to withdraw $301 and leave the $300 bonus in my account as per the terms and conditions I deposited under. I knew this was unlikely to happen because I couldn't withdraw the $171 I was entitled to before but I played because I wanted to know what value they had set the non-cashable bonus to be.

I found out I could only withdraw $101. They had set the bonus to be $500 ($601-$101) which proves they committed fraud. The bonus amount was only $300 just as the previous one was. There is no way they could contrive the bonus amount to be the arbitrary figure of $500 without them doing so deliberately and fraudulantly to prevent me cashing out.

A side issue is that now the cashier actually removes the bonus amount after cashout which wasn't true when I played. So instead of having the mysterious $500 bonus in my account after withdrawing the $101, I end up with nothing. That is applying the rules retroactively. The way the bonus worked at the times I deposited was that the non-cashable bonus was to be left in the account after withdrawels.

 

[hhcfreebie]

Their bonus is no longer sticky, now they called it phantom bonus. That is, when you make a cashin those bonus will disappear.
I remember I've read their new terms somewhere.
Anyway, that doesn't make them look good at your case.

 

[sirius]

The main point is they changed the bonus from a $300 bonus into a $500 one so I wouldn't be able to withdraw my own money! They probably did this while they processed the previous withdrawel and noticed a balance and realised I had made a $50 profit the two previous times I played. There is no other explanation for what they did other than fraud. The bonuses were non-cashable at the time and they stayed in your account until you lost them.

1st time: deposited $100, got $130 sign up bonus. Ended on $280. Cashed out $150 (50 profit). Bonus was lost quickly soon afterwards.

2nd Promo offer: Deposited $300, got $300 bonus. Ended on $650 and cashed out the $350 available. $50 profit once more. Bonus was all lost again.

3rd Promo offer: Deposited $300, got $300 bonus. Ended down over $100 after wagering requirements but couldn't withdraw a thing and couldn't get answers from them. Couldn't get any help from anyone including WizardofOdds who was advertising them. Yesterday I played again many months later and got up to $601 (above the deposit and bonus amount- so I hadn't lost a thing). I then found out that the bonus amount was set to $500 sometime after I deposited for the promo! I could only withdraw $101 (which I did) of the $301 and to make matters worse, the $500 remaining disappeared automatically and my balance is now $0!!

So despite not losing any of the three times and winning above the bonuses (I won $50 the first two times and $1 the third time) I was cheated out of $200 and am down $100 overall! That is not even considering the last bonus was completely removed without me losing it. I don't think I need to explain any further.

I will be 'pitching a bitch' here as Bryan seems to be friendly with these guys. I can't wait for their explanation.

 

[jpm]

Sirius, did you have 0 balances each time you deposited and got a new bonus? If not, they accumulate along with the wagering requirements. Are you saying that each time you deposited, got a bonus, and met the wagering requirements for each bonus before making the withdrawl and then going back and losing the bonus?

I know when I signed up there and was playing on a bonus, I was able to withdraw winnings BEFORE I met wagering requirements, but couldn't touch the bonus money till I was done wagering. Did that like 3 times before I finally finished the w/r and cashed out.

 

[Anne_66]

I'm sorry to hear that, Sirius

Have you talked to their live-support yet? These guys are usually very helpful. I'd do this before asking the Meister for a hand.
If this doesn't help, pitch a bitch then...

But as JPM says, was your account balance down to zero when you deposit again and received a bonus? In case you didn't know, your balance has to be $0.00!

This is what happened to me once when I didn't know of this $0.00 term: On my first deposit I received a $100.00 bonus. I lost. Then, next day I deposited again. First $200.00 than another $180.00. I denied bonuses for these two payments, by the way. With my last deposit, I won about $500.00 and cashed-out. The next day, I realized that they took away $100.00 from my account. I talked to their live-support and ask them why they did remove my 100.00 bucks? I was told that this was the bonus given for my first deposit (they always remove bonuses when you cash-out). I told them that I've lost everything and did my next deposits without receiving a bonus. Then it turned out that I didn't lost "everything", cause there were still $0.40 on my account left, and it has to be exactly down to $0.00 So now that I know of this regulation, everything is working fine at ClubDice for me.

 

[sirius]

Sirius, did you have 0 balances each time you deposited and got a new bonus? If not, they accumulate along with the wagering requirements. Are you saying that each time you deposited, got a bonus, and met the wagering requirements for each bonus before making the withdrawl and then going back and losing the bonus?

I know when I signed up there and was playing on a bonus, I was able to withdraw winnings BEFORE I met wagering requirements, but couldn't touch the bonus money till I was done wagering. Did that like 3 times before I finally finished the w/r and cashed out.

I'm interested in what you say here but I always had a zero balance before purchasing for a promotion but the promotions were on smaller deposit amount usually. For example, on 28th August (the second $300 bonus), the promo was a match up to $300 on multiples of $50 deposits so I deposited a number of times before starting to wager.

I can't remember the wagering requirements now but both times I always completed the wagering for the full $300 bonus and deposits before attempting to withdraw anything. In what way would the wagering accumulate like you said because I'd lost all previous bonuses before depositing for a promotion and completed the full wagering requirements for the full bonus amount?? Do you understand what could have happened?

I always lost all the bonuses before playing the next promotion for simplicity reasons but nothing about it was even mentioned in the terms and conditions. The support seemed to have no idea about what was happening although I was told on the phone a couple of times that it was the decision of the finance department.

 

[sirius]

I'm sorry to hear that, Sirius

Have you talked to their live-support yet? These guys are usually very helpful. I'd do this before asking the Meister for a hand.
If this doesn't help, pitch a bitch then...

But as JPM says, was your account balance down to zero when you deposit again and received a bonus? In case you didn't know, your balance has to be $0.00!

This is what happened to me once when I didn't know of this $0.00 term: On my first deposit I received a $100.00 bonus. I lost. Then, next day I deposited again. First $200.00 than another $180.00. I denied bonuses for these two payments, by the way. With my last deposit, I won about $500.00 and cashed-out. The next day, I realized that they took away $100.00 from my account. I talked to their live-support and ask them why they did remove my 100.00 bucks? I was told that this was the bonus given for my first deposit (they always remove bonuses when you cash-out). I told them that I've lost everything and did my next deposits without receiving a bonus. Then it turned out that I didn't lost "everything", cause there were still $0.40 on my account left, and it has to be exactly down to $0.00 So now that I know of this regulation, everything is working fine at ClubDice for me.

This doesn't sound right either because the cashier seems to keep track of bonuses and the amount you can withdraw. If it went through, why would they later remove $100? Are you saying they sent you $400 instead of the $500 you cashed out or did they remove the $100 from your casino account?

 

[Anne_66]

They removed it from my account. They always remove bonuses after withdrawals.

Here's a part of their T&C:
-----------------------------------------------
Please note that:
- Bonus credits are for wagering purpose only, and you may not cash out the bonus. You may only cash out your winnings.

- Only withdrawal of an amount superior to the Play Bonus will be processed, and the Play bonus will be deducted from your withdrawal request.

- Bonuses will be automatically removed from players accounts after a withdrawal request.
-------------------------------------------------

Anne

 

[linda7]

How do you bet 40 cents?

Hi Annie,

If you had 40 cents left in your account, how do you bet that to get your balance down to zero? Unless they have 5 or 10 cent games, it does not seem fair. I know most casinos consider your account as "zeroed" once you are under a dollar? JPM, am I correct on this? Thanks for any info you can provide.

***hugs***

 

[Anne_66]

Hi Linda,

they also have slots you can place $0.01 bets.

>I know most casinos consider your account as "zeroed" once you are under >a dollar?

Not at ClubDice. The account balance has to be $0.00

Bye,
Anne

 

[polli123]

Hi Linda,

they also have slots you can place $0.01 bets.

>I know most casinos consider your account as "zeroed" once you are under >a dollar?

Not at ClubDice. The account balance has to be $0.00

Bye,
Anne

Hi Anne, look for the new german sub-forum. Bye Polli

 

[sirius]

They removed it from my account. They always remove bonuses after withdrawals.

Here's a part of their T&C:
-----------------------------------------------
Please note that:
- Bonus credits are for wagering purpose only, and you may not cash out the bonus. You may only cash out your winnings.

- Only withdrawal of an amount superior to the Play Bonus will be processed, and the Play bonus will be deducted from your withdrawal request.

- Bonuses will be automatically removed from players accounts after a withdrawal request.
-------------------------------------------------

Anne

My balance was always zero when I played a promotion and I only withdrew winnings after I met the wagering requirements (I believe it was 4 times everything). So I had zero balance, deposited $300 and got $300 of bonuses, wagered over $2400 and withdrew the small winnings. The bonus stayed in the account after withdrawels and then you had to keep playing it until you lost it (those were the rules when I played). I lost the bonus without winning a hand.

I then deposited for another $300 promotion which I believe was the very next day (so I still had winnings to be processed from the previous one). They were sending promotions every day it seemed. I had a zero balance because I lost the previous bonus from the day before. I believe what happened was once they processed the previous winnings, they decided to fraudulantly make my balance non-cashable by making the $300 bonus into a $500 one. I didn't withdraw for a while because I played those final wagering requirements over a few days, in which time the previous withdrawel was processed.

I played there recently to figure out what they had done. They never responded to me despite phone support telling me the finance department would contact me by email - live support always told me to phone.

I got my account back up to the original deposit and bonus plus $1 extra ( I was down over $100 before). Out of the $601, I could only withdraw $100 of my $300 deposit despite easily exceeding the wagering requirements. The maximum I could withdraw was $101 and then the other $500 magically disappeared which was contrary to the rules when I deposited!!

When I played for this promotion, the bonus was to be left in the account after withdrawels for further play but this time it completely disappeared!! Also, I should have been able to withdraw $301 but could only withdraw $101!!

 

[cipher]

Hi Annie,

If you had 40 cents left in your account, how do you bet that to get your balance down to zero? Unless they have 5 or 10 cent games, it does not seem fair. I know most casinos consider your account as "zeroed" once you are under a dollar? JPM, am I correct on this? Thanks for any info you can provide.

***hugs***

Well I was beginning to wonder if you and Barry had ran off to some Island in the sun. How are you guys doing and did you get Lauren off to school?

 

[jpm]

Yes Linda, there are a number of games that you can play away that 40 cents. The 9 line slots for instance will let you play for a penny. All the casinos though have different rules for what constitutes a zero balance. FL just decided that anything less than $1 is zero, but this one and others really mean 0.00

I'm still trying to figure this one out Sirius. It really doesn't make sense for that limit to be $500 if you met/exceeded w/r on every bonus and then zero'd out before getting another. I assume you also logged out and back in between your deposit bonuses too?

I can't figure out the reason for setting the $500 limit either though. If they wanted to bust your b*lls, why not just take the bonus out altogether and tell you to take a hike and lock your account. I would love to hear the explaination if they ever figure out what they did.

 

[greensun]

To all you ClubDice-belivers...

To all of you clubdice-casino fans...
Let me share my personal clubdice-experience with you and I suggest you pull up some popcorn because my letter is looong and its a copy of one I sent to casinomeister.

Im sick and tired of all them online-cheaters...


Read and behold....

Im am referring to the ClubDice Casino that has given me more than an unpleasant experience.

I became a member of theirs on the 13:th of Jan 2004 and have had continuous problems with them as soon as I started to win .I play both their roulette,MegaBall and the slots and managed to be fortunate enough to have a few nice larger wins,still keeping me in the green. Like many players I also try to gain some advantages by trying different type of strategies and
I almost consider myself as something of a natural when it comes to casino gambling and "winning hunches"

I am however, not a very happy player since my overall experience with ClubDice has been a negative one.

Let me explain and please take into account when reading my letter that this letter has been written and completed during a longer period of time,

1.) When I earlier had a nice upswing at their live roulette table and I was in the middle of my "recovery phase"sticking my neck out by risking a little bit more, wich had worked fine earlier ,the casino simply "turned off " the "betting function" making it impossible for me to place my bets at these critical moments ,resulting in a lost recovery and a decreased balance on my part.This happened 3 times in a row. I even tried restarting my computer.

2.) After a nice win on the megaball -"lottery slots" my bank went up a good bit and then when I returned to the "lobby" ,I found about 30 units were missing from my balance!
I got angry and immediately went "public" by entering the live webcam-roulette table and said; "Hey,what happened to my balance??!It just went down from bla bla b to bla bla and I did nothing!!"Well as soon as I have said this,my balance instantly got back to its original status and I commented,"Oh its alright now.My balance is back.Must have been a tech-problem"....
I have closed my eyes so many times in a forgivingly manner ,hoping that they would stop cheating on me but as soon as I start winning again,it starts all over again...

3.) At times,when betting more aggressively, I have had some quite unreal results when playing at their privat table with their roulette-software but naturally this cannot unfortunately be proved too easily but when considering the above and my total experience with ClubDice Casino ,I dont know what to think...As an experienced player I do know when things are not the way it should be and I can with confidence say that strange things happens with their software when a person by the name "Mike" is doing his shift .This is not my imagination.I strongly suspect that someone has been tampering with the software at times when I have been there.Furthermore,as an experienced player,it is also very obvious that they today, are giving their dealers firm instructions to control the spins to their advantage when I am playing.And they are doing it very successfully I might add.I am not winning anymore.So I now wonder,isnt all these acts illegal?

I have had many nice conversations with their many pretty dealers that really seemed to appreciate me and I have naturally , always, behaved like a gentleman but lately,all of a sudden none of them respond to my greetings or "hello" when I try to communicate with them.Not a sound.Its not very hard to figure out who is behind these strange things...Looks like they now want to "freeze" me out...

I personally paged Mr "Mike" a couple of times at the live support .The first time I received nothing but silence.The last time a few seconds of silence followed by "He is not here".
I am in this letter enclosing one of my "Fruit Mania-Sessions" during Mikes shift.Could you Mr Bailey, please take a look at the enclosed gaming log and give me your opinion.I do know that its not much to go on and I do know, it probably wont tell you anything at all but ,still,it just might tell you something?I also wanted to send you my gaming log on their "Magic Slots" for a particular day when I had some extraordinary losses but they just wouldnt send it to me,claiming it was too large(I played for approximately 30 minutes) so we have to do without it.

4.) Sometimes their live roulette dealers happens to do a "3 spin-revolution-miss" resulting in a respin of the wheel wich I certainly consider as a very natural thing to happen but what I dont understand is why my account is still being charged ?This has happened on more than one occasion,decreasing my balance every time even though the spin and my bet was annulled? I have earlier never commented anything about this but a few days ago(31th of March at 13:48) I encountered the same thing and my balance went down from 914:51 to 903.51 in another nullified and revoked bet ,decreasing my balance from 914:51 to 903.51.This time I wrote them a letter but no reply thus far ,when I am writing this.

5.)After getting a little tired and quite uncomfortable with their casino I found another online gambling establishment by the name "Casino Carnival".It all looked professional to me so I joined.When entering their "lobby" on my first visit,I was immediately approched by their live support ,asking me about bonuses and such.I asked them,considering my earlier experience ,if they by any chance were related to the ClubDice Casino .The person by the name "Mike or Mark"(if I recall it properly)confidently declared that, that was not the case.
Well after another few days and some really quick losses with their roulette-software, I found out that they were indeed affiliated with the ClubDice Casino.The Carnival Casino is a sister casino to ClubDice...

So I ask myself,can you trust a casino that can tell you a lie?

There are many more less complimentary things to be said about them ,that I could
write a little book about it. Most online casinos certainly treat you nice...If you lose....But if you win,you will find out rather quickly which one of them is the genuinely good and honest one, giving you a fair and happy time,regardless if you win or lose...

In my opinion, it is how we online gamblers are treated as winners by the casino that separates the wheat from the chaff .

Finally, now after playing with ClubDice for many weeks/months and while I am still on the plus side, I "recently"(many days ago now) wanted to check my gaming history,in the case of a withdrawal, so I dont lose my winnings if I have not yet met their bonuses terms (wich I most probably have by now according to my own notes) but oddly enough,I could only find a few roulette bets that I had previously made, wich does not even count regarding bonuses.

Why a "Game History button" if you cannot access your total gaming history?

So nevertheless, I sent them 3-4 letters about this many days ago now and received a letter with my supposed gaming history for March only.Oh well,when I tried to check my March attachment, I could not find it, So I sent them my forth letter and kindly explained for them that they had apparently forgotten to attach the attachment *lol*.

They replied, Thu, 11 Mar 2004, with the answer that they have sent my request for my gaming history to the "technical department" since they said that they have been having difficulties to send me my attachment.
So 4 days later,Mon,15 Mar 2004,I sent them another letter.

I am inclined to belive that they are simply playing another one of their tricks on me ,stalling me ,so I will hopefully ,in the mean time ,play some more at their casino and hopefully decrease my winnings or lose the lot...

I still have not received my total gaming history from them.
What I keep receiving though, is a lot of letters with bonus-offers.

So tiresome...

Today,after everything,one thing after another,there is no doubt in mind that these people at Clubdicecasino are NOT to be trusted.

Today,I am somewhat shocked over the fact that these folks actually have "control" over that little ivory ball as well as their dealers.I belive that they even tamper with their software when needed.There is absolutely no doubt in my mind whatsoever that this is the way it is.

I dont think I will ever play online again or roulette for that matter...

When a casino start cheating on you its really no point to continue playing...

It takes quite a bit of bravery to risk money and place your trust on something you cannot see with your own eyes, to start with...

There were moments when I thought that I may not have to send this letter but today after my many weeks/months of play, I feel sort of obliged to do so,to warn my fellow-gamblers...

Sincerely

 

[bethug]

playtec casinos is a joke, i have been saying this for a year.

 

[greensun]

Prosecutables

That may be BetHug but its not so much about the software here.
This is more about the criminals running them...

 

[lanidar]

That may be BetHug but its not so much about the software here.
This is more about the criminals running them...

I have to agree with BetHug here.
Playtechs software is one of the worst.
The criminals that run them are terrible also.
But, if you don't win then there is no need to deal with the criminal element.

 

[greensun]

ClubDice down the hill...

Thanks for the omniscient input Lanidar.
Unfortunately,I still have money on my account(1000) with them and I have sent them a couple of enquiries regarding some withdrawal-problems but no reply whatsoever and its been days now.
If I wont be able to cash out, I intend to take legal action.
Ill keep you folks posted...

 

[Astrolucky]

Yes, I hear your cries

I've been with Club Dice for over a year and dropped them two months ago. There are some very suspicious things I've noticed with them. When I call customer service, it sounds like some guy is sleeping and you just woke him up. And they changed the betting minimums from $1 to $5 chips on the roulette wheel. Now, come on, if they don't have $1 chips you can choose, then only the very rich can play these games. They have contests that they promote. The contest states that whoever deposits the most money into their account within 24 hours, WINS! Whoever falls for that scam must be really dumb. Yeah, when the girl miss-spins the ball on the roulette wheel, (if it doesn't spin three revolutions, then they say a re-spin is required).....the problem is that they won't give you back your lost bet on that spin which was a disqualified spin. I mean, if rules state the ball must spin 3 times before landing on a number and it only spins one time around and falls on a number, then it is supposed to be re-spin and all bets are to be returned to DO OVER. Well, my friends, they don't do this.....they keep your bet and take the winner's bet away from them! STAY AWAY from this Casino. They are clearly getting ready to go bankrupt as they no longer have a girl chatting with you online as you are in the roulette room. They can't afford to pay her. Look at their video line feeds. They are blury and they don't care a dime about getting it fixed to see their dealers. They are clearly losing money and I would never, ever play there again. Thank YOU for letting me voice my mind over a casino I used to trust. Also beware of Carnival Casino.....they are the same company as Club Dice.

 

[mary]

What a pathetic statement of how low people's expectations have gotten. Thrilled to pieces for having been paid for a win. Forced to wait over a month.

After reading so many postings about casinos that just don't pay their customers, or keeping them on a string, I must single out the ClubDice Casino for praise.

After winning a total of $22,000 within a couple of weeks, I requested a cash-out. They wanted me to send them copies of my cc, ID and a bank statement. I did so and I received two checks of $5,000 each only about 10 days later, sent by regular mail. I was very pleased as I expected some difficulties because I won $17,000 on my first day, playing with the bonus they provided me. I only made a payment of $75,00 as I was actually afraid of playing online.

Due to their new-members-regulations ($10,000 monthly cash-out-limit for new players) I had to wait another four weeks in order to receive the rest of my money. Last week I requested a further cash-out of $8,000 (1x $5,000 and a few days later another $3,000). This time I chose "express mail" which costs $35,00 for each check.

On Friday 23rd April they sent a mail telling me that both checks are approved and will be sent out immediately. Today morning (Tuesday, 27th April) I received one check of $7965,00 Not only that this was extremly fast but also very kind sending me only one check of the total amount in order to save me $35,00 :notworthy

That's what I call customer service! Their 24hours online-support always is very friendly and all my mails to their support has been answered within a few hours. This, and their fair T&Cs (deposit & bonus has to be wagered only 4 times in order to be cashed out) convinces me that there's no good reason for me to play in any other online casino. Great job, ClubDice! Thanks alot!

 

[Simmo!]

What a pathetic statement of how low people's expectations have gotten. Thrilled to pieces for having been paid for a win. Forced to wait over a month.

Well said Mary - thats the one thing i picked up on. Need sto be improved really.

That aside, IMHO this thread (and plenty of others) go to demonstrate that the casinos have to be as wary of players as the players are of the casinos. With the exception of Mary's observation, once again the problems all stem from "free money" offers. Players and casinos are no different in that they each want the other's money. Roll on the day when cash bonuses are given to loyal players and signup bonuses are gift-based i say. The industry badly needs this.

 

[jetset]

Amen to that, LOL - but it would certainly reduce the number of posts here!

 

[sirius]

Well said Mary - thats the one thing i picked up on. Need sto be improved really.

That aside, IMHO this thread (and plenty of others) go to demonstrate that the casinos have to be as wary of players as the players are of the casinos. With the exception of Mary's observation, once again the problems all stem from "free money" offers. Players and casinos are no different in that they each want the other's money. Roll on the day when cash bonuses are given to loyal players and signup bonuses are gift-based i say. The industry badly needs this.

I see Jetset agreeing with your observation here but can you explain what you mean? Casinos don't need to send almost daily promotions of hundreds of dollars free (when you are losing overall at the casino) like Club Dice did so they must do this for a reason, don't you think? This is a very popular casino so it obviously works for them but they shouldn't be allowed to behave fraudulantly like they have done in many cases. I ignored most of their offers for a long time as they were totally ridiclous and unsustainable. It seems like that if they realise you are not going to lose everytime they somehow think it's acceptable to cheat players. I never did pitch a bitch but I will do seeing as my problem was never resolved.

When I asked live chat for their phone number they mistakenly gave Playtech's number (I had asked for Club Dice's number and didn't mention Playtech). When I phoned they told me I had been given the wrong number and gave me Club Dice's number. Obviously, this was Playtech's first licensee and probably owned by them and I am surprised other casinos still use this software because Playtech is obviously competing with them and I think Club Dice is bigger than the others with their resources.

 

[Simmo!]

I see Jetset agreeing with your observation here but can you explain what you mean? Casinos don't need to send almost daily promotions of hundreds of dollars free (when you are losing overall at the casino) like Club Dice did so they must do this for a reason, don't you think?

I think its generally accepted in this competitive industry (and many others) that a merchant needs to promote and attract new customers and once on board, keep them loyal. Most casinos offer cash bonuses to loyal players, just usually with different terms...some better than others.

I would play with loyalty bonuses but generally only if they are tied to overall wagering - for example, at 32Red, you can claim the $132 VIP bonus at any time but you can't withdraw it until you hit $3,500 wagering. Its very clear and for a loyal player works well. We all know their signup bonuses are stricter and less attractive - but thats aimed at a different set of people and as in any group, there will be those who tarnish the others with their practices. So give them a CD or something when they have wagered $500 and offer them ongoing cash bonuses after the second/third deposit to keep them valued.

Thats all i'm saying really. As Jetset says, it would keep the posts down in this forum - a good thing as far as everyone is concerned The actual complaints that are "non-bonus" related would a) be more interesting and pertinent in deciding where/where not to play and b) would help reduce the overall perception of the industry as a "rogues playground" by concentrating on more fundamental issues I would suspect.

Don't get me wrong, i'm not suggesting where a casino blatantly decieves on a bonus issue that that isn't a genuine complaint...just merely capping what people consider "bad". Crap wagering requirements, refusals to cash out prior to wagering, slow processing of bonus winnings, ID requirements on bonus winnings etc are not what i would term reasonable complaints. Withholding winnings on genuine bonus play, changing or hiding wagering terms, locking accounts of winners etc are good grounds for complaint.

As Mary said, the slow-pay thing is waaaay more important to me than the bonus issues. Basically I don't believe in a free lunch. Nothing wrong with trying to get a "free lunch" of course, but I think anyone who does needs to look out for themselves and not go all huffy when it turns out there's a bill after all. That's just plain naive IMHO.

And to stand outside the restaurant with a placard afterwards is just a bit silly

Cheers

Simmo!

 

[Vesuvio]

Thats all i'm saying really. As Jetset says, it would keep the posts down in this forum - a good thing as far as everyone is concerned The actual complaints that are "non-bonus" related would a) be more interesting and pertinent in deciding where/where not to play and b) would help reduce the overall perception of the industry as a "rogues playground" by concentrating on more fundamental issues I would suspect.

We've had this discussion before & I've already outlined all the advantages of bonus hunting, so just a few points

a) I'm not convinced the complaints would be 'more interesting' - some bonus issues can be quite wacky too, even if I'm not sure entertainment value is the key here! Pertinent in deciding where to play? Possibly, though a casino that treats bonus players badly can't be trusted to deal fairly with non-bonus players who win. Besides, without bonuses the only good advice on where to play is nowhere Seriously, most of the people who advocate getting rid of bonuses earn money from affiliate websites or other revenue sources which are more profitable the more money casinos earn. That's not a criticism, it's just that bonuses are the one factor that gives players a chance of winning, so must be a good thing

b) I'd agree that if you could universally ban bonuses most rogues (& a lot of smaller reputable casinos) would probably be forced out of business - hard to see that happening in the near future, though.

Basically I don't believe in a free lunch. Nothing wrong with trying to get a "free lunch" of course, but I think anyone who does needs to look out for themselves and not go all huffy when it turns out there's a bill after all. That's just plain naive IMHO.

Wrong on all counts There is such a thing as a free lunch in the casino industry, for easily explicable reasons (the casino needs to attract players and the profits generated more than cover a percentage of players winning - the casino just doesn't get the free lunch of attracting players at no cost!). The bonus hunter has to foot the bill if they lose, as often happens. If they win and a casino fails to fulfill its terms they have the same rights as any other player at the casino. Naivity!? That would be thinking that the poor mistreated casino can't be expected to pay out if it loses money from the offer it so generously offered players out of the goodness of its heart

 

[Vesuvio]

And to stand outside the restaurant with a placard afterwards is just a bit silly

I must admit I find the idea of players boycotting casinos a bit absurd! Usually the only players who'd be clued up enough to take part are bonus hunters the casino wouldn't want anyway. Though I did once toy with the conspiracy theory that Bethug was trying to get together a group of players who use his system. The casinos would be so desperate to get hold of this revenue source they might take the 'Players' Union's' strike threats seriously!

 

[Simmo!]

We've had this discussion before

Indeed we have V but its still fun eh I think we'll agree to differ but essentially what I'm saying is that i believe a gambler will want to gamble and if no-one offered cash bonuses, there would still be enough people willing to play to make it worthwhile and generate decent profits plus there'd be the benefit of removing (probably more than) half the complaints in this forum.

Its like the old Music Download scene. When Napster was around in original form everyone said there's no way people would pay to download music. Now its the norm and iTunes are selling millions a month.

Fair point about some webmasters promoting bonus abolition. Not seen anyone state this, but regardless of that its not the issue here - its about the industry's reputation being tarnished by bonus-related complaints that may be totally unneccesary in the first place. I'd take a guaranteed CD or a DVD over the chance of profiting from a signup bonus any day of the week.

Cheers

Simmo!

 

[Vesuvio]

I agree the on-line casino industry wouldn't disappear if bonuses were abolished. It's not quite like Napster as of course players already do play without bonuses (and perhaps most players first played at an on-line casino before they knew about bonuses).

I just doubt that players, especially high rollers, would choose to play at more than one or two reliable casinos for each software provider. Without continual incentives players would also deposit less. With that, & the loss of bonus hunters, there'd be fewer casinos and far fewer people employed in customer services.

I'm not even sure it would solve the industry's image problem. Players will always rightly be suspicious of casinos, especially on the internet. To be honest, I think that's a good thing. The more compulsive gamblers are discouraged from throwing away their money the better. Rogue operators would still be drawn to casinos and if they couldn't offer bonuses they'd find other ways of scamming players out of winnings (so maybe non-bonus players are better off at present while bonus hunters bear the brunt of it ).

Again, bonuses are the only possible good thing about on-line casinos

 

[mary]

Realistically, bonuses are never going to go away.

*They bring in more money than they cost the casino. They're easy to sell (free money!) and tap right into what the player wants (free money!)

*Nobody is very worried about "tarnished reputations" either for the industry as a whole or for individual casinos. If a casino is otherwise well-run, including having the capability to advertise, it will do just fine. (Golden Palace leaps to mind.)

We do see a correlation between the casinos with the worst thought-out bonus offers and their sudden collapse because there is a correlation between not being able to design a bonus correctly and not having good casino management skills. They borrow money, they fail to pay their advertisers, they fail to pay their software providers, they get hit with a lot of reverse charges and get thrown out of their payment processing contracts. They fail to function on many fronts, it's just that for players the most obvious early sign is bad bonus design and fulfillment.

The current player base consists only of people willing to take a risk with (for the most part) unregulated casinos. If all the existing online casinos suddenly conducted themselves with upmost probity, that probably wouldn't change a whole lot.

There is a huge untapped market out there of players who are waiting for the government to regulate the casinos; for brand names they recognize; for cross-marketing with other recognizable brands. We can see them pouring online for UK companies now. Like their parent land operators, those sites will be offering bonuses both on sign-up and for player loyalty. Harrah's in fact has won awards for their success at rewarding loyal customers...with free money (and other goodies).

Another way to look at bonuses is that they actually *help* the overall health of the industry. (Mary, have you gone loopy?) Yep. They help to enforce a level playing field between good operators and bad operators willing to lie, cheat, and steal. How? Bonuses are the only reward a committed, disciplined, creative, intelligent, self-trained and organized cadre of online gaming inspectors can expect to receive.

Without bonuses, we'd have no bonus hunters. Without bonus hunters, we'd have nobody (or very few individuals) constantly testing casinos for game fairness, processing competency, contract fulfillment; we'd have nobody correlating their results; nobody tracking down bad owners; nobody in the field. Non-bonus hunting players probably would have been unpaid a couple of times and then just quit playing online or would have found a satisfactory casino and stuck with it. Bonus hunters on the other hand are rewarded for trying out new casinos and for sharing that information with others.

Sometimes dishonest, sometimes a pain in the ass, but very effective in discovering industry problems. It's an ecology and Natural Selection is operating, folks. The Bonus Hunters can be compared to parasites, maintaining species diversity through taking down those unfit to reproduce.

 

[GrandMaster]

Fair point about some webmasters promoting bonus abolition. Not seen anyone state this, but regardless of that its not the issue here - its about the industry's reputation being tarnished by bonus-related complaints that may be totally unneccesary in the first place. I'd take a guaranteed CD or a DVD over the chance of profiting from a signup bonus any day of the week.

The question is who guarantees it. Why do you think that a casino that cannot administer its bonus program properly, which only involves some book-keeping, would be better at sending out CDs or DVDs?

Physical goods cost money up front, whereas bonus credits are "free" until the casino has to pay out real money, and $100 bonus that has to be wagered 25 times on slots does not really cost the casino $100. Players may also have to pay customs duties and taxes, which will not make them very happy.

 

[mary]

Brrrrr. I just had the mental image of a virus-laden offshore burned cheapo CD turning up in the post. Coooties!

 

[Vesuvio]

The Bonus Hunters can be compared to parasites, maintaining species diversity through taking down those unfit to reproduce.

I like to think of myself as a parasite feeding on other parasites (casinos) Though parasites don't usually kill their hosts (that would be counter-productive!), so it can be an even better metaphor for the situation with most well-run casinos.

Great post overall!

 

[Simmo!]

I just doubt that players, especially high rollers, would choose to play at more than one or two reliable casinos for each software provider. Without continual incentives players would also deposit less.

Yes indeed, but I'm drawing a distinction between signup bonuses, which are generally the ones abused, and loyalty bonuses which i think are much more important V.

 

[Simmo!]

The question is who guarantees it. Why do you think that a casino that cannot administer its bonus program properly, which only involves some book-keeping, would be better at sending out CDs or DVDs?

I don't say they would GM. But I'm thinking more about a third-party business that provides this service to the casinos and perhaps uses Amazon to distribute.

Say that new business was called "CasinoIncentives":

Player deposits > Casino sends email "gift voucher" (effectively a key) to the player > Casino notifies CasinoIncentives of the key > Player picks from a list on CasinoIncentives website (or even Amazon) and enters the key > CasinoIncentives orders gift from Amazon (probably using an Amazon affiliate link!) to be sent to the player.

The casino pays CasinoIncentives for the service obviously but all the Casino has to do is enter the players ID into a system at CasinoIncentives and an amount ordered and thats the end of their involvement. Player can choose their gifts to a given value and CasinoIncentives can probably get gifts sent from local versions of Amazon to save tax i suspect too.

Well thats just one way it could work...so who's an entrepreneur round here?

Cheers

Simmo!

PS. I want 10% for the idea

 

[GrandMaster]

We would still have the issue that the casino would have to identify the players who are eligible for the promotion, and send the list to CasinoIncentives. Even better established companies don't seem to be able to cope with this simple task. I get lots of junk mail from insurance companies offering a free pen and other gifts of similar value just for asking for a quote. In my experience half of these gifts don't arrive. There will also be the usual casino related problems, if the terms involve wagering then some people will play on exluded games, certain casinos will accuse you of bonus abuse if they feel that you take part in promotions too often, etc.

 

[Simmo!]

We would still have the issue that the casino would have to identify the players who are eligible for the promotion, and send the list to CasinoIncentives.

True...but then there has to be communication at every level of play GM.

Even better established companies don't seem to be able to cope with this simple task. I get lots of junk mail from insurance companies offering a free pen and other gifts of similar value just for asking for a quote. In my experience half of these gifts don't arrive.

You're bound to have issues at one time or another - its not a "total cleanup" solution - i dont believe there is one - but it should vastly reduce the number of complaints one would have thought...see below...

There will also be the usual casino related problems, if the terms involve wagering then some people will play on exluded games, certain casinos will accuse you of bonus abuse if they feel that you take part in promotions too often, etc.

The good thing about this is that you should be able to reduce the complexity of wagering requirements. All the game "exclusions" for example will be far less relevant. Plus being of "known value" rather than giving the player potential to take the casino for a song will enable the casino to budget better and thus (arguably) be able to pay regular players quicker. So the theory goes

 

[KasinoKing]

The Bonus Hunters can be compared to parasites, maintaining species diversity through taking down those unfit to reproduce.

Yippee! Im a parasite!

Simmo, gifts instead of ca$h bonuses would not interest me at all in fact, thats a total turn off.

The thing that really winds me up about bonuses is, why do the casinos positively encourage bonus hunters? The vast majority of casinos offer generous sign-up incentives, and then crap-all else. Why do they discriminate against existing customers in favour of new punters?
What do you expect people to do, other than keep signing up for new ones?
I think it very short sighted of the casinos who cant see this.

I would much rather go back to just a handful of decent casinos month after month, like I do with Will Hill, Intercasino, and a few others. But when it comes to Microgaming I might as well just join 1 or 2 new ones every month then never go back. With over 80 to chose from Id have a good 3-4 years worth still to go! (Then Id start on playtech )

 

[Simmo!]

The thing that really winds me up about bonuses is, why do the casinos positively encourage bonus hunters? The vast majority of casinos offer generous sign-up incentives, and then crap-all else. Why do they discriminate against existing customers in favour of new punters?
What do you expect people to do, other than keep signing up for new ones?
I think it very short sighted of the casinos who cant see this.

I would much rather go back to just a handful of decent casinos month after month, like I do with Will Hill, Intercasino, and a few others. But when it comes to Microgaming I might as well just join 1 or 2 new ones every month then never go back. With over 80 to chose from Id have a good 3-4 years worth still to go! (Then Id start on playtech )

kk

 

[jetset]

QUOTE: The thing that really winds me up about bonuses is, why do the casinos positively encourage bonus hunters? The vast majority of casino's offer generous sign-up incentives, and then crap-all else. Why do they discriminate against existing customers in favour of new punters? UNQUOTE

With the exception of those online casinos that do offer useful ongoing incentives, I think KK makes a good point here that will hopefully be read and taken on board by more casino managements.

Getting players is expensive and time consuming...surely it's worth an equal investment to keep 'em.