Weak Bonus Wins After Good Bonus Wins

[whodatrec]

I have a question Catapult pertaining to the programing of the feature games.

When you have won the three or more scatters to trigger a set of 'free' spins, is the final total of your win known at that time and the amount just parceled out between the spins?

Or is it limited to each spin being set and you receive an unspecified total? Sometimes zero and sometimes large.

Does that question make sense?

MaryJean

Yes im wondering about the same thing. Seams to me on some games its predetermined and others im not sure. I know that the wild desire feature on IR and the ruby slippers feature on Ruby slippers are predetermined.

So are the crystal ball feature on ruby slippers as the balance updates before it finishes, but when you hit free spins or the pick me feature it does not update the balance.

Also are those pick me features random? Does it even matter what you chose?

 

[Balthazar]

They do on land based mechanical slots. I've always maintained this is not necessary on online/video slots.

It's true that it's not necessary (see WMS and some NetEnt games) but that's what MGS (and of course RTG) do. That's why we can calculate the RTP of MGS games just by stripping the reels. It would be really, really unnecessary to make the reel strips fit the RTP and then not using random stops (unnecessary as in "extremely dumb").

Also, slots like IR behave the way a slot with random stops should behave. (Such as getting the scatter on the first reel a lot more often than on the other reels, because, well, there are most scatters on the first reel's strip.)

On top of that, kktmd discovered that in the game Avalon II, scatters are added/substracted from the reels depending on which bonus is next. Some bonuses are slightly harder to trigger than others (likely because the "harder-to-get" bonus rounds have a higher RTP and by doing that it keeps the TRTP equal on all spins). They wouldn't do such thing if they weren't working exclusively with random stops.

The differences between MGS and RTG are the bonus rounds and the reel animations. In their recent games MGS clearly uses some kind of "special code" for most of their bonus rounds (weighted reels and such) and the reel animations for all their slots is just a basic film. RTG on the other hand is pure mechanical replica all the way even in the bonuses and reel animations (for example, if a scatter passes just before the time that the reel is about to stop, you know that it's not coming back in time).

 

[brianmon]

I really think you have to ask yourself, is there any advantage to programming a system whereby we choose an outcome - say 2x stake, and then have to calculate possible reel positions in order to display that outcome, as opposed to simply stopping our reels at position x and giving a win based on the result - we know for sure that nearly all MG and NetEnt games have fixed real strips, and it is MUCH more difficult to achieve the former than the latter - and I say that as a programmer

I'd say the real advantage is speed.

If all the reel position wins are pre-calculated and stored in a table. the server merely asks the RNG for one number which it multiplies by the number of possible combinations, retrieves the win value and reel positions from the look-up table and sends it to your computer to be displayed .

If the server has to request 5 numbers from the RNG, then multiply each by the number of symbols on each reel, then calculate the win (taking into account that there can be multiple wins on any given spin) and do this for every spin from all the 1000's and 1000's of players all playing different games. it would use a hell of a lot more processor time than using a simple look-up table.

also if the reel positions in the bonus rounds were pre calculated. it would be simple to calculate which reel combinations to use to achieve (or at least, get close to) a pre-determined outcome. that's why on a lot of the 243way games you can get very similar wins from a bonus round, eg around 10x stake, around 20x stake, around 100x stake, etc

as far as bonus rounds go. you only need to look at the likes of TSII's thor falling reels bonus round. the first 3 reels have a very similar layout, meaning if a big win is required, it selects a 3OAK on the first 3 reels, these having similar symbols above and let them 'fall' through, the final win for each position up that stack of symbols is already known. so it just selects the appropriate start position
If it was totally random, how easy would it be to get one of those 'sweet-spot' 3OAK's and win big at least once in those 25 spins??

when there's features like that with multiple 'sweet-spots' and other features with big multipliers, some control has to be taken to keep the TRTP within reason

 

[dunover]

It's true that it's not necessary (see WMS and some NetEnt games) but that's what MGS (and of course RTG) do. That's why we can calculate the RTP of MGS games just by stripping the reels. It would be really, really unnecessary to make the reel strips fit the RTP and then not using random stops (unnecessary as in "extremely dumb").

Also, slots like IR behave the way a slot with random stops should behave. (Such as getting the scatter on the first reel a lot more often than on the other reels, because, well, there are most scatters on the first reel's strip.)

On top of that, kktmd discovered that in the game Avalon II, scatters are added/substracted from the reels depending on which bonus is next. Some bonuses are slightly harder to trigger than others (likely because the "harder-to-get" bonus rounds have a higher RTP and by doing that it keeps the TRTP equal on all spins). They wouldn't do such thing if they weren't working exclusively with random stops.

The differences between MGS and RTG are the bonus rounds and the reel animations. In their recent games MGS clearly uses some kind of "special code" for most of their bonus rounds (weighted reels and such) and the reel animations for all their slots is just a basic film. RTG on the other hand is pure mechanical replica all the way even in the bonuses and reel animations (for example, if a scatter passes just before the time that the reel is about to stop, you know that it's not coming back in time).

Then explain symbols appearing on some MG games' reel graphics that aren't even possible as they aren't on that reel......

I never said, ever, that you make the reel strips 'fit the RTP' - the TRTP is based on the reels and matches the reels and their probabilities of any one result. Never in doubt, whichever you believe, me or anybody else. No chicken-and-egg question here.

ALL I am saying is that (based on the reel maps and their variance) you simply need all possible outcomes pooled indefinitely and ONE RNG pick of that pool. The end result over millions of spins will be the same RTP as if you had 5 separate reel RNG picks. The obvious advantage being that ONE pick cannot be disrupted by server issues/connection issues/malfunctions etc. whereas it's possible that 5 could be. It makes restoration of any uncompleted spins easier and more reliable.

 

[catapultaudio]

I'd say the real advantage is speed.

If all the reel position wins are pre-calculated and stored in a table. the server merely asks the RNG for one number which it multiplies by the number of possible combinations, retrieves the win value and reel positions from the look-up table and sends it to your computer to be displayed .

If the server has to request 5 numbers from the RNG, then multiply each by the number of symbols on each reel, then calculate the win (taking into account that there can be multiple wins on any given spin) and do this for every spin from all the 1000's and 1000's of players all playing different games. it would use a hell of a lot more processor time than using a simple look-up table.

also if the reel positions in the bonus rounds were pre calculated. it would be simple to calculate which reel combinations to use to achieve (or at least, get close to) a pre-determined outcome. that's why on a lot of the 243way games you can get very similar wins from a bonus round, eg around 10x stake, around 20x stake, around 100x stake, etc

as far as bonus rounds go. you only need to look at the likes of TSII's thor falling reels bonus round. the first 3 reels have a very similar layout, meaning if a big win is required, it selects a 3OAK on the first 3 reels, these having similar symbols above and let them 'fall' through, the final win for each position up that stack of symbols is already known. so it just selects the appropriate start position
If it was totally random, how easy would it be to get one of those 'sweet-spot' 3OAK's and win big at least once in those 25 spins??

when there's features like that with multiple 'sweet-spots' and other features with big multipliers, some control has to be taken to keep the TRTP within reason

There is no speed advantage. Your on the right lines with the lookup table but your logic for how we get there seems a little off. First of all, whether we have to request one, five or one hundred numbers from the RNG is irrelevant - it can spit out hundreds of thousands of them every second without issue, the only bottleneck is the data connection - the CPU in your computer can create random numbers faster than your internet can send them (or, for that matter, your hard disk can store them). Next I'm not sure theres any multiplication involved in either case? Maybe I misunderstand somewhere? Though even if they were, again these calculations are so simplistic for a computer to perform, it would take millions of users to saturate the capacity.

When a game is being developed and the maths model is created, an essential element of that process is to determine the games RTP, to do this necessitates recording every possible outcome of the reels so why not store that data in a database for future use? Infact, it's extremely likely that the slot designer says okay we want 96pc tRTP, please give me reel strips that match this value, and their engine goes off and creates these strips.

Also consider the fact most games have adjustable numbers of lines and show you which lines you have scored a win on after each spin, this data also needs to be recorded, every line win for every possible combination of spins - and would be required whether we start with 5x reel stop positions, or a win value as your suggesting.. the difference if we were to fetch a win value is we then have to make another request to choose one of the possible outcomes that match that win ... a second, unnecessary stage to the procedure.

Of course I can't guarantee that the slot designers make the games this way but I can say what makes sense from a programming perspective, and if there is no financial advantage for the designer to deviate from the most efficient procedure its usually fair to say that they will follow that route, especially if it is the simplest and most efficient anyway.

So, we fetch our five stop positions, in our imaginary gam we get back from our RNG stops 5, 12, 17, 30, 2, in our database there is a unique row with those five stop positions, and linked to that row is a second table with the outcomes for each line visible with those stops.. no calculations are required, it was all worked out at the time the designer fixed the RTP of the game.

With regards the rolling reels bonus round, the reel strips are altered for the bonus round as your probably aware, but the layout of those reels will be generated by the computer in order to meet a specific RTP, how easy would it be to get a 'sweet spot' 3 of a kind? Pretty much the same as in the main game, but in order to give slightly larger wins we have several runs of the same symbols on the first three reels... I maybe don't understand your point completely because I don't really see how this bonus round would confirm your idea that developers work backwards from a win number to reel positions - its just massively simpler to do it the other way around, so unless anybody can think of a financial advantage to doing things that way I can't buy into the theory

 

[brianmon]

There is no speed advantage. Your on the right lines with the lookup table but your logic for how we get there seems a little off. First of all, whether we have to request one, five or one hundred numbers from the RNG is irrelevant - it can spit out hundreds of thousands of them every second without issue, the only bottleneck is the data connection - the CPU in your computer can create random numbers faster than your internet can send them (or, for that matter, your hard disk can store them). Next I'm not sure theres any multiplication involved in either case? Maybe I misunderstand somewhere?

as a programmer, you'll be aware that a 'raw' computer generated random number is usually a decimal <1 eg 0.35745573, this is normally multiplied by a specific number representing the maximum required number, plus 1, and the resultant integer is used. if it was generating integers. it wouldn't be as easy to manipulate to fit to the specific requirements, eg reel size

if, as you say, 5 separate numbers were generated and reel one had 93 stops -
0.00123456 x 51 = 0.11604864 = 0
0.35745573 x 51 = 33.6008386 =33
0.99999999 x 51 = 93.9999991 =93
repeat for each reel with the appropriate multiplier

if there was one lookup table with say, 234567 entries, covering every possible reel position. then
0.35745573 x 234568 = win combination 83847

Though even if they were, again these calculations are so simplistic for a computer to perform, it would take millions of users to saturate the capacity.

Don't forget that the servers are doing a lot more than just running the games, they'll be handling/updating all the customers account etc and in the case of servers feeding browser-based casinos, they'll be 'sending' the games to customers as they select them to play

Also consider the fact most games have adjustable numbers of lines and show you which lines you have scored a win on after each spin, this data also needs to be recorded, every line win for every possible combination of spins - and would be required whether we start with 5x reel stop positions, or a win value as your suggesting.. the difference if we were to fetch a win value is we then have to make another request to choose one of the possible outcomes that match that win ... a second, unnecessary stage to the procedure.

I'm talking more specifically about the fixed lines/ways 243 slots, which is what the original post was about

So, we fetch our five stop positions, in our imaginary gam we get back from our RNG stops 5, 12, 17, 30, 2, in our database there is a unique row with those five stop positions, and linked to that row is a second table with the outcomes for each line visible with those stops.. no calculations are required, it was all worked out at the time the designer fixed the RTP of the game.

how would that unique row be indexed? if there was one giant look-up table which at some point had the combination stops 5, 12, 17, 30, 2, it maybe at position 34265 down the table. wouldn't it be easier just to generate 34265 from the RNG to access it

 

[dunover]

There is no speed advantage. Your on the right lines with the lookup table but your logic for how we get there seems a little off. First of all, whether we have to request one, five or one hundred numbers from the RNG is irrelevant - it can spit out hundreds of thousands of them every second without issue, the only bottleneck is the data connection - the CPU in your computer can create random numbers faster than your internet can send them (or, for that matter, your hard disk can store them). Next I'm not sure theres any multiplication involved in either case? Maybe I misunderstand somewhere? Though even if they were, again these calculations are so simplistic for a computer to perform, it would take millions of users to saturate the capacity.

When a game is being developed and the maths model is created, an essential element of that process is to determine the games RTP, to do this necessitates recording every possible outcome of the reels so why not store that data in a database for future use? Infact, it's extremely likely that the slot designer says okay we want 96pc tRTP, please give me reel strips that match this value, and their engine goes off and creates these strips.

Also consider the fact most games have adjustable numbers of lines and show you which lines you have scored a win on after each spin, this data also needs to be recorded, every line win for every possible combination of spins - and would be required whether we start with 5x reel stop positions, or a win value as your suggesting.. the difference if we were to fetch a win value is we then have to make another request to choose one of the possible outcomes that match that win ... a second, unnecessary stage to the procedure.

Of course I can't guarantee that the slot designers make the games this way but I can say what makes sense from a programming perspective, and if there is no financial advantage for the designer to deviate from the most efficient procedure its usually fair to say that they will follow that route, especially if it is the simplest and most efficient anyway.

So, we fetch our five stop positions, in our imaginary gam we get back from our RNG stops 5, 12, 17, 30, 2, in our database there is a unique row with those five stop positions, and linked to that row is a second table with the outcomes for each line visible with those stops.. no calculations are required, it was all worked out at the time the designer fixed the RTP of the game.

With regards the rolling reels bonus round, the reel strips are altered for the bonus round as your probably aware, but the layout of those reels will be generated by the computer in order to meet a specific RTP, how easy would it be to get a 'sweet spot' 3 of a kind? Pretty much the same as in the main game, but in order to give slightly larger wins we have several runs of the same symbols on the first three reels... I maybe don't understand your point completely because I don't really see how this bonus round would confirm your idea that developers work backwards from a win number to reel positions - its just massively simpler to do it the other way around, so unless anybody can think of a financial advantage to doing things that way I can't buy into the theory

They don't need to work backwards. As you will no doubt confirm, it is easy to generate graphics pertaining to the win award. So, there are hundreds of possible reel permutations for say a 1x stake win. So 1 RNG pick and then any from permutations of graphics applicable to that win.

 

[brianmon]

They don't need to work backwards. As you will no doubt confirm, it is easy to generate graphics pertaining to the win award. So, there are hundreds of possible reel permutations for say a 1x stake win. So 1 RNG pick and then any from permutations of graphics applicable to that win.

Yeah, there's no doubt a local pseudo RNG within the actual game program, just to select one of the appropriate combinations

 

[maphesto]

I've mentioned before... Slots are random within a cycle. You receive random hits within a particular cycle and not just any hit randomly...

So if the top award is 100 coins it will pay once... other variations of it will pay , but not the same one - unless in a new cycle.

Nate

So i guess my tinfoil hat theory holds water? This is what i mean when i say i dont belive its totally random.

I think Nate made that post before he became an affiliate and I don't think he nowadays states that slot machines work in cycles. I certainly don't think they work in cycles.

 

[whodatrec]

I think Nate made that post before he became an affiliate and I don't think he nowadays states that slot machines work in cycles. I certainly don't think they work in cycles.

Why has becoming an affiliate changed his mind?


Some of the points stated in the posts above would make sence.. The RNG picking win amount and then another RNG picking a matching outcome on the reels may explain certain patterns. Maybe the patterns we see is due to lazy programming. RNG picks same "video outcome" for the same wins. But it does not however explain the cashout curse!

 

[maphesto]

Why has becoming an affiliate changed his mind?

I don't know if he changed his mind. This was not the question, I don't think you will see affiliates who say that online slots (not AWP's) work in cycles.

 

[Nate]

I don't know if he changed his mind. This was not the question, I don't think you will see affiliates who say that online slots (not AWP's) work in cycles.

When referring to cycles - I refer to PRNG.

"A full cycle is a mathematical term that represents a traversal over a set of non-random numbers. A full cycle implies that every number in the set was chosen exactly once before repeating.
Full cycles are useful in pseudorandom number generators" - Source

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I know that PRNG are used in online Slots.

"Random number generators
All modern machines are designed using pseudo random number generators ("PRNGs"), which are constantly generating a sequence of simulated random numbers, at a rate of hundreds or perhaps thousands per second. As soon as the "Play" button is pressed, the most recent random number is used to determine the result. This means that the result varies depending on exactly when the game is played. A fraction of a second earlier or later, and the result would be different.
It is important that the machine contains a high-quality RNG implementation, because all PRNGs must eventually repeat their number sequence" Source

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"The PRNG-generated sequence is not truly random, because it is completely determined by a relatively small set of initial values, called the PRNG's seed (which may include truly random values). Source:

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Nate

 

[lana.k]

one day....

The truth comes out....and then those netent/microgaming/casino people can hide forever. I know what i am talking about.

I can not believe that people still think that this crap is random and i also can not believe that i wasted 30.000 before i found out the truth.

The clock is ticking...this is for sure.

You can only beat online casinos with their own weapons. I could paste some darknet irc chat logs into this thread to open your eyes and show you what other people are doing to get their money back but i won't. This all is under my niveau.

To the newbies: Don't even start playing online casinos and if you already did then just stop.

 

[gagamel]

The truth comes out....and then those netent/microgaming/casino people can hide forever. I know what i am talking about.

I can not believe that people still think that this crap is random and i also can not believe that i wasted 30.000 before i found out the truth.

The clock is ticking...this is for sure.

You can only beat online casinos with their own weapons. I could paste some darknet irc chat logs into this thread to open your eyes and show you what other people are doing to get their money back but i won't. This all is under my niveau.

To the newbies: Don't even start playing online casinos and if you already did then just stop.

You can`t beat any casino, that`s for sure

 

[gagamel]

The truth comes out....and then those netent/microgaming/casino people can hide forever. I know what i am talking about.

I can not believe that people still think that this crap is random and i also can not believe that i wasted 30.000 before i found out the truth.

The clock is ticking...this is for sure.

You can only beat online casinos with their own weapons. I could paste some darknet irc chat logs into this thread to open your eyes and show you what other people are doing to get their money back but i won't. This all is under my niveau.

To the newbies: Don't even start playing online casinos and if you already did then just stop.

Please PM me, I will give you a 50% cashback if I get back my loses for the last 25 years. Thank you very much

 

[whodatrec]

The truth comes out....and then those netent/microgaming/casino people can hide forever. I know what i am talking about.

I can not believe that people still think that this crap is random and i also can not believe that i wasted 30.000 before i found out the truth.

The clock is ticking...this is for sure.

You can only beat online casinos with their own weapons. I could paste some darknet irc chat logs into this thread to open your eyes and show you what other people are doing to get their money back but i won't. This all is under my niveau.

To the newbies: Don't even start playing online casinos and if you already did then just stop.

Please explain..

 

[lana.k]

Please PM me, I will give you a 50% cashback if I get back my loses for the last 25 years. Thank you very much

I have to repeat again that i don't want to have anything to do with this kind of stuff but i do know that online casinos have been compromised in the past and i do know that some people rip off online casinos in a way that you wouldn't believe. I always played fair and i lost most of the time so i just stop playing. If you would like to know how to 'suddenly' make a profit you should ask other people and not me. I only told you what i have seen and what i know. If you believe it or not is up to you. Online casinos are cash cows for hackers.

 

[whodatrec]

What i ment was please explain how its rigged...

 

[gagamel]

I have to repeat again that i don't want to have anything to do with this kind of stuff but i do know that online casinos have been compromised in the past and i do know that some people rip off online casinos in a way that you wouldn't believe. I always played fair and i lost most of the time so i just stop playing. If you would like to know how to 'suddenly' make a profit you should ask other people and not me. I only told you what i have seen and what i know. If you believe it or not is up to you. Online casinos are cash cows for hackers.

Sorry Lady
please bring some facts or your posts are like all the other blablabla posts we see every day.
All casinos are rigged..bla..I know someone who has a program..bla..make profit with my system...blablabla

 

[Balthazar]

Then explain symbols appearing on some MG games' reel graphics that aren't even possible as they aren't on that reel......

Assuming that you aren't talking about the spinning reel animation (which is bogus of course) do you have an example?

 

[lana.k]

please bring some facts

Where are your facts ? I pay for this crap so i expect a proof that online casinos are fair and random.
There are many more variables, more if's and thens and you know it.

or your posts are like all the other blablabla posts we see every day.

No, but what we see every day is the usual "RTP blah blah TRTP blah blah....RNG blah...your just unlucky duh uh".
Meanwhile i am asking myself if this is still an online forum for gamblers or an advertising network for online casinos and affiliates.

All casinos are rigged..bla.

not random = rigged ?

I know someone who has a program..bla..make profit with my system...blablabla

What a stupid comment. I never wrote something like that. Are you an affiliate ? that would explain your hyperventilation.

 

[andym]

Thats exactly also my experience on the slots. They are not random.

Another thing that happened to me in 9/10 sessions on a slot:
You have a bankroll of lets say 100 euro. Slot eating the money till you are close to 0 Eur. And then the slot provides you a decent win (lets say 10Eur).

That decent win comes in 9/10 sessions when youre close to 0 eur balance.
So if every spin (that is what CasinoEuroSupport told me a few months ago that EVERY SPIN is Random (not a cycle...)) would be completely random then that would never happen in 9/10 sessions.
Anyone made the same experience?

 

[andym]

Another thing that happened to me in 9/10 sessions.

Suddenly you win on a slot. Then you move to another slot - you win again. YOu move to another slot and you win again.
Then at some point that streak ends. But thats ok of course and not the problem here.

The Problem is: You can then switch slots - even from different providers - but you are not able to win anything again you are loosing and lossing.

My question:
How could that happen when everything is random? As per my information i got from the casinos the slots are not "linked" together: Every single slot has its own RTP.

And i can definetly share the experience that the slots got more and more greedy over the last 12 months.

 

[whodatrec]

My theory is that its an account based RTP. Meaning if you have hit a very good winning streak a losing streak follows to balance it out. Same if you have a very bad losing streak you get that big win to even it out.

 

[Tirilej]

Another thing that happened to me in 9/10 sessions.

Suddenly you win on a slot. Then you move to another slot - you win again. YOu move to another slot and you win again.
Then at some point that streak ends. But thats ok of course and not the problem here.

The Problem is: You can then switch slots - even from different providers - but you are not able to win anything again you are loosing and lossing.

My question:
How could that happen when everything is random? As per my information i got from the casinos the slots are not "linked" together: Every single slot has its own RTP.

And i can definetly share the experience that the slots got more and more greedy over the last 12 months.

Sure I recognize that slots are behaving like that.

I also know that are mind is playing tricks with us because what we remember is that we have sessions where we can't seem to win at all and they are horrible.
We also do remember those winnings session, not common, but sweet...but worth to remember since it can include a huge win with screenie and a cashout.

But also in between there we have those other sessions where we win a little on one game, then lose on three, win a little on one, and lose it back on three other games.
Those can be long sessions, but boring and leads to nothing to remember at all.

That anything would have changed though is not true for me. I try to play as smart as possible and I get all kind of sessions. I lose most of the time but I do still win sometimes also.
Just like I always have.