Watch Out Players.. questions about Dark Knight Rises

[Nifty29]

I think Dunover is being done a disservice here, his points have validity, R&D does the best it can and beta testing does also but mistakes do creep out into the wild. The game source code being swapped is just techno speak and irrelevant, its like the black magic that car repair engineers speak when there's a fault with your car.

Software patches are released quite frequently to games not only for the potential of abuse but for safety reasons, speed of play and multi-platform operating system considerations including internet browsers.

I don't think Igor is dismissing him out of hand.

He obviously has actual experience at all stages of casino software development and implementation, whereas AFAIK dunover does not (with all due respect).

He's making the point that these things don't just happen overnight or via a "quick patch". We aren't talking about sound or graphic tweaks, we are talking about the actual "guts" of the game engine, which I assume from my reading here over the years is a different kettle of fish.

The interesting thing is that it is not necessarily a glitch that APs can exploit....at least with any certainty....and without any reasonable expectation of consistent profit, it is not worth the APs time. I've seen some stats via PM from someone playing the game prior to the update, who attempted to take advantage of the glitch, and found that in many cases they were in the RED and, overall, ended up no better in terms of profit vs bankroll than they would have playing normally I.e. their RTP was under 100%.

The problem is with trying that exploit is that you have no idea when the free spins will trigger, nor how much they will pay. The only way to really make it work is if you could trigger the free spins instantly...which you can't. One example would be playing .60 for many spins to build up the free spins etc, then switching to $3 spins...and waiting 200 spins to trigger (quite possible) and getting 100xbet (a decent hit). You're down like $300+. In that scenario, you have to get 200+xbet to just break even, which is no mean feat. The figures I was sent show a long wait for free spins was not unusual.

In a way, the current method is better for those playing high bets, as you can reduce a fair bit if your bankroll is dwindling and still get a decent return possibility if you get the feature.

 

[Andy Walker]

I don't think Igor is dismissing him out of hand.

He obviously has actual experience at all stages of casino software development and implementation, whereas AFAIK dunover does not (with all due respect).

He's making the point that these things don't just happen overnight or via a "quick patch". We aren't talking about sound or graphic tweaks, we are talking about the actual "guts" of the game engine, which I assume from my reading here over the years is a different kettle of fish.

The interesting thing is that it is not necessarily a glitch that APs can exploit....at least with any certainty....and without any reasonable expectation of consistent profit, it is not worth the APs time. I've seen some stats via PM from someone playing the game prior to the update, who attempted to take advantage of the glitch, and found that in many cases they were in the RED and, overall, ended up no better in terms of profit vs bankroll than they would have playing normally I.e. their RTP was under 100%.

The problem is with trying that exploit is that you have no idea when the free spins will trigger, nor how much they will pay. The only way to really make it work is if you could trigger the free spins instantly...which you can't. One example would be playing .60 for many spins to build up the free spins etc, then switching to $3 spins...and waiting 200 spins to trigger (quite possible) and getting 100xbet (a decent hit). You're down like $300+. In that scenario, you have to get 200+xbet to just break even, which is no mean feat. The figures I was sent show a long wait for free spins was not unusual.

In a way, the current method is better for those playing high bets, as you can reduce a fair bit if your bankroll is dwindling and still get a decent return possibility if you get the feature.

Fundamental errors can occur with computers and the servers that use them and this is because mere humans program the things. A case in point was a CPU linked here

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that made mathematical mistakes. It gave software errors it couldn't check.

No system is always perfect all of the time

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There are always errors even if tiny in any assembly language, nothing can be dismissed, the human element looks again and corrects any errors (mostly in their favour) lol

 

[dionysus]

Errors do occur. But I think one of the points Igor was making, was that if the game had a glitch, and wasn't performing to specs, they'd memo the casinos informing them of any alterations needed to the games, which according to 2 reps here, they didn't.
Was there a glitch? I don't know. I was saying MG hasnt said there was one (regardless of VWM saying they did..they didnt)- Igor was saying noone said to him there was one, and that fixes aren't rapidly applied behind closed doors, unbeknownst to players and casinos without their knowledge as far as he's aware.

 

[HIGHIQ]

before and after

hi ppl as VWM has already posted in another thread i do it here again.. and i will explain little more about ..

this is a screenshot from before THE ORIGNAL release of first week as u can see that the game will pay on the triggerd bet...as i thought it should as it should have.. which the casino called it a glitch...i think to me i won it fair and square.. as maybe the casinos sees they lose alot money on this way .. they might complain to MGs that the slot is losing money for them...thats why two reps comfirmed there was nothing wrong with the slot as MGs have told them.... we can read here ALL BETS ARE PLAYED ARE THE SAME AS THOSE THAT STARTED THE FEATURE

here is original screenshot.

here is the update after the 8th september.. as u can read the game pay on average bet has been made... so we can say on the first week there is no glitch as the update has no glitch they only changed the system.... from paying on triggered bet to paying on average bet been made.. we can read here ALL WINS WITHIN THE FEATURE WILL BE MULTIPLIED BY A WEIGHTED AVERAGE BET


here is the screenshot after 8th sept.

 

[lotusch]

The problem is with trying that exploit is that you have no idea when the free spins will trigger, nor how much they will pay. The only way to really make it work is if you could trigger the free spins instantly...which you can't. One example would be playing .60 for many spins to build up the free spins etc, then switching to $3 spins...and waiting 200 spins to trigger (quite possible) and getting 100xbet (a decent hit). You're down like $300+. In that scenario, you have to get 200+xbet to just break even, which is no mean feat. The figures I was sent show a long wait for free spins was not unusual.

Exactly my thoughts a few posts ago.
I don't see any advantage in that glitch as it did no good for me.
Actually I started to get my investment in this machine back when I started to play at a set stake and let the freespins trigger ast the same stake,might be a coincidence but I managed better results in the freespins this way.

 

[Balthazar]

this is a screenshot from before (...) here is the screenshot after 8th sept.

So they did change the game. Sorry Igor.

 

[Balthazar]

The problem is with trying that exploit is that you have no idea when the free spins will trigger, nor how much they will pay.

Did you play the slot Nifty? The "big money" on this slot is almost exclusively in the freespins multipliers, and you won't get multipliers every time that you trigger the free spins.

So even if you wait 300+ spins to trigger the feature at max bet, you'll make money on the long run if you "build" a good multiplier at low stake then up your bet considerably when you reach a good multiplier. It's not guaranteed that you'll make money on every feature, but it's VERY exploitable for anyone with a decent bankroll.

 

[lotusch]

Well according the screenshots the freespins feature has been altered.
But my question remains,does it really matter as the glitch was absolutely no good to me.
Also I think the only one to enlighten us on this matter would be someone from MGS.
An explaination would be welcome from within the MGS factory.

I personally find it annoying that it seems they have admitted to some casino's there was a glitch but denied it to other casino's so customers from different casino's got different answers on their queries about this slot.

I think to clear this MGS should come forward and post some kind of a public statement so we all know what really happened.

As said,I can't be bothered whatever the cause of the issue was as I will stay far away from this slot.
I didn't like the play of it and decent payouts occured very far apart,as also fight mode and free spins mode.

 

[incrediblestuff]

Did you play the slot? The "big money" in this slot is almost strictly in the freespins multipliers, and you won't get multipliers every time that you trigger the free spins.

So even if you wait 300+ spins, you'll make money on the long run if you "build" a good multiplier at low stake then up your bet considerably when you reach a good multiplier. It's not guaranteed that you'll make money on every feature, but it's VERY exploitable.

Well, "was" very exploitable, they now fixed that

 

[Balthazar]

But my question remains,does it really matter as the glitch was absolutely no good to me.
Also I think the only one to enlighten us on this matter would be someone from MGS.

What do you want to know? The first version of the game was exploitable, they fixed it, that's it. Now if they refuse to pay people who exploited it then IMO that's a problem.

 

[HIGHIQ]

What do you want to know? The first version of the game was exploitable, they fixed it, that's it. Now if they refuse to pay people who exploited it then IMO that's a problem.

i have no clue as i said..


as i play any other slot, for example Isis.. has multiplier 6 i also bet small and raise bet when i had certain amount of spins spinned u can also retrigger freespins .. and sometimes u win and sometimes u lose .. as i have on this dark knight rises aswell.. i had losing session, i had sessions where i played about even... and i have session where i had won.. to me same as any other slot..

 

[incrediblestuff]

Well according the screenshots the freespins feature has been altered.
But my question remains,does it really matter as the glitch was absolutely no good to me.
Also I think the only one to enlighten us on this matter would be someone from MGS.
An explaination would be welcome from within the MGS factory.

I personally find it annoying that it seems they have admitted to some casino's there was a glitch but denied it to other casino's so customers from different casino's got different answers on their queries about this slot.

I think to clear this MGS should come forward and post some kind of a public statement so we all know what really happened.

As said,I can't be bothered whatever the cause of the issue was as I will stay far away from this slot.
I didn't like the play of it and decent payouts occured very far apart,as also fight mode and free spins mode.

It may not have made a big impact on your session, you also appeared to had a very bad start at it, but got some back on a decent bet? Question there would be if you got that good hit on the highest of bets in relation to the complete session, or not, to really see if it would have made a difference.

But indeed somewhat beside the point: overall such a glitch can make a big dent in the positive expectation every Casino has on any given slot, and as such that would be corrected as soon as it was noticed.

I agree with VWM overall in this thread, and i personally do think that HIGHIQ and any other player affected, in a similar situation (casino wanting to void winnings) should be paid, regardless of the fact if they tried to exploit it deliberately, or did it unknowingly, thinking it was a normal feat of the game.

MG have a history of being very closed to the player community, they even uphold a pretty low level of openness towards their operators, or so i have been told on several occasions by different people.

 

[vinylweatherman]

What do you want to know? The first version of the game was exploitable, they fixed it, that's it. Now if they refuse to pay people who exploited it then IMO that's a problem.

The REAL problem is the fact that officially, there is no glitch, and never has been. From what Igor posted, if it was fixed, it wasn't done according to the proper procedures that operators are privy to, hence Igor is absolutely certain that no game engine update has occurred (other than the minor correction of a page of the paytable).

It doesn't matter who told what and when in the industry arena, we have an accredited casino seeking to void a player's 20K balance on the grounds that they built it on a glitched game.

There was indeed, a major "cough* humptier * hack" live for around a week, and as many pro fruitie players know, not all "humptiers" are straight forward, or even guaranteed to result in a gain on every attempt. What they have in common is that over the long term, they work.

What my screenshot attempts to prove is that when I triggered the free spins, the wins were paid on the basis of the £12 triggering bet, not a weighted average to take into account the building of the spins and multiplier from much lower bets. There were runs that lead to a loss due to the free spins triggering early, or paying badly, but I had 2 really good progressions that ended on this £12 trigger, and one at £9. These were enough to cover the rest, and increase my starting balance by 500%.

Had I stuck to it for the whole day, 20K should not have been a problem, although withdrawing it probably would have been.


Had this gone unnoticed for longer, it could have done some serious damage to operators' finances.

I am expecting the PAB to force the issue, as otherwise this accredited casino will have to become Microgaming's scapegoat and pay the 20K, or come up with a different reason for voiding it.

I am also sure that this issue will be raised on other fora, especially those more tuned to advantage play.

 

[Igor82]

The REAL problem is the fact that officially, there is no glitch, and never has been. From what Igor posted, if it was fixed, it wasn't done according to the proper procedures that operators are privy to, hence Igor is absolutely certain that no game engine update has occurred (other than the minor correction of a page of the paytable).

1) HIGHIQ needs to be paid as 1) screen showed how the game pays to player, which also EQUALED to the actual engine algorithm. (paying at bet value) As such there is not glitch and casino is at default for this sesssion.

2) IF following this, there was an update to algorithm (paying at average value) while the screen also changed to reflect that change, they likewise all bets following the update are valid.Question in such case isn't validity of the game, but why the quiet update?

Now, taking a look at the "quiet" update if this screenshot is legit and it did happen. Updating the screen because a designer used previous assets and made a mistake without changing the game parameters isnt a big deal and can be done quietly, however in such case:

3)IF the game engine performed one way, while the payout screen advertised something different, the game engine DID PAY according to it's intended design and still - the casino should pay IMO.

To actually uncover which of the 3 options did happen, if anything happened at all, is to take stock of all bets of a player from their first spin, until the first feature trigger; take that average, ensure it is different to the triggering bet, and then take a look at the freespin payouts (seeing if they indeed pay on triggering bet - while ensuring triggering bet is different from the average). THAT and only THAT will be able to tell if the game structure changed overnight.

All else, is still unfortunately only speculation.

 

[FiletOFish]

I also have a PAB, although only for £7k. Dunno if it's the same group as HighIQ. I'd love to say more, but I'll wait until the PAB is sorted.

 

[Nifty29]

IMO all the players should be paid. Absolutely.

I can't see how it is a "malfunction" if the game was behaving EXACTLY how it was programmed....and it obviously WAS. The fact that the actual coding/whatever was incorrect is certainly not the player's fault.

VWM...this has nothing to do with "fruitie emptiers blah blah". FGS! There was NO way to "empty" the game, as it was not possible to trigger the free spins immediately. As I stated earlier, and some others who described their results, the risk of losing/making an overall loss was still quite real. In other words, not every slot-related problem relates to your past LAND BASED fruitie experience. I can't believe you don't get that. The players that WON big had to BET BIG.....many would have ended up losing, but there would have been a FEW that hit VERY BIG just out of pure luck e.g. triggering very quickly AND getting a big pay, or just hitting a monster.

Until we get some SOLID information from MGS etc, VWM's speculation is just that....speculation. We don't even know at this point if it DID hit the casinos hard overall.....it certainly seems like Igor was not "emptied"

 

[incrediblestuff]

IMO all the players should be paid. Absolutely.

I can't see how it is a "malfunction" if the game was behaving EXACTLY how it was programmed....and it obviously WAS. The fact that the actual coding/whatever was incorrect is certainly not the player's fault.

VWM...this has nothing to do with "fruitie emptiers blah blah". FGS! There was NO way to "empty" the game, as it was not possible to trigger the free spins immediately. As I stated earlier, and some others who described their results, the risk of losing/making an overall loss was still quite real. In other words, not every slot-related problem relates to your past LAND BASED fruitie experience. I can't believe you don't get that. The players that WON big had to BET BIG.....many would have ended up losing, but there would have been a FEW that hit VERY BIG just out of pure luck e.g. triggering very quickly AND getting a big pay, or just hitting a monster.

Until we get some SOLID information from MGS etc, VWM's speculation is just that....speculation. We don't even know at this point if it DID hit the casinos hard overall.....it certainly seems like Igor was not "emptied"

True enough
However, there was indeed a + EV situation, provided the players bankroll would be sufficient, to try a certain scenario over and over, within specific parameters.
It's a bit like micro stakes poker and the classic short stack strategy, over the long run, it could be very profitable, but even so there would be room for failure.

 

[vinylweatherman]

1) HIGHIQ needs to be paid as 1) screen showed how the game pays to player, which also EQUALED to the actual engine algorithm. (paying at bet value) As such there is not glitch and casino is at default for this sesssion.

2) IF following this, there was an update to algorithm (paying at average value) while the screen also changed to reflect that change, they likewise all bets following the update are valid.Question in such case isn't validity of the game, but why the quiet update?

Now, taking a look at the "quiet" update if this screenshot is legit and it did happen. Updating the screen because a designer used previous assets and made a mistake without changing the game parameters isnt a big deal and can be done quietly, however in such case:

3)IF the game engine performed one way, while the payout screen advertised something different, the game engine DID PAY according to it's intended design and still - the casino should pay IMO.

To actually uncover which of the 3 options did happen, if anything happened at all, is to take stock of all bets of a player from their first spin, until the first feature trigger; take that average, ensure it is different to the triggering bet, and then take a look at the freespin payouts (seeing if they indeed pay on triggering bet - while ensuring triggering bet is different from the average). THAT and only THAT will be able to tell if the game structure changed overnight.

All else, is still unfortunately only speculation.

No need to speculate, there is a very thorough blow by blow account in Playcheck. I do not need to speculate at all, it's all there!!!. The problem is that it's all TRAPPED there, as Microgaming have never allowed players to download their Playcheck data. There is no easy way to grab all the data in detail, as it would literally occupy hundreds, if not thousands, of individual screenshots.

ANY operator who has this game can also check the game logs of all their players on this game, and look for sessions that included changes of bet in the run up to the free spins.

The glitch is that BY DESIGN the game initially paid free spins at the triggering bet, and ALSO carried in full the tally when the player raised or lowered the bet. Even though it performed as designed, it was implemented as a 100%+ EV game when it came out, and altered to a more regular 95% (approx.) game some time later by the altering of the algorithm that calculated the pays from the free spins.

The game engine itself needed no alteration, it was the calculation of the pays during free spins that needed to be altered. This could have been as little as changing one line of code, substituting the value of the triggering bet with the variable "average weighted bet".

Although the game played as designed, the design itself was initially flawed, and one casino has decided it's not going to honour wins, but instead use the malfunction voids play rule to unwind such play prior to the fix.

A read of the forums will show that for YEARS players have been asking why Microgaming Viper casinos repeatedly update existing games when new games are released. Now we know what the second round of updates were up to after the primary update that added this new game.

I noticed because I spent a whole day just logging in to each of my Viper casinos and just leaving them for about half an hour till all updating activity ceased. I then found that after a few days, the whole lot started the update procedure AGAIN. This has to have been the update where this game was corrected.

 

[vinylweatherman]

More Data

Here is the run I made leading up to the trigger at £12 of the free spins, increasing the bet a little each time I got the fight sequence.

Clearly, my average bet was not £12, even though my free spins were all paid at the £12 triggering bet.

This run didn't take long, but with enough confidence, and a big enough bankroll, 7 days would have been long enough to have caused very serious issues for an operator, especially a small one.

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118573 View 2013/08/31 7:37:53.26 PM The Dark Knight Rises £7.50 £0.00
118574 View 2013/08/31 7:37:55.17 PM The Dark Knight Rises £7.50 £0.00
118575 View 2013/08/31 7:37:57.05 PM The Dark Knight Rises £7.50 £0.00
118576 View 2013/08/31 7:37:58.97 PM The Dark Knight Rises £7.50 £3.75
118577 View 2013/08/31 7:38:01.60 PM The Dark Knight Rises £7.50 £0.00
118578 View 2013/08/31 7:38:03.58 PM The Dark Knight Rises £7.50 £0.00
118579 View 2013/08/31 7:38:05.57 PM The Dark Knight Rises £7.50 £0.00
118580 View 2013/08/31 7:38:07.21 PM The Dark Knight Rises £7.50 £0.00
118581 View 2013/08/31 7:38:09.32 PM The Dark Knight Rises £7.50 £0.00
118582 View 2013/08/31 7:38:11.37 PM The Dark Knight Rises £7.50 £0.00
118583 View 2013/08/31 7:38:13.92 PM The Dark Knight Rises £7.50 £27.50
118584 View 2013/08/31 7:38:21.43 PM The Dark Knight Rises £7.50 £7.50
118585 View 2013/08/31 7:38:24.37 PM The Dark Knight Rises £7.50 £0.00
118586 View 2013/08/31 7:38:26.42 PM The Dark Knight Rises £7.50 £0.00
118587 View 2013/08/31 7:38:28.37 PM The Dark Knight Rises £7.50 £0.00
118588 View 2013/08/31 7:38:30.22 PM The Dark Knight Rises £7.50 £0.00
118589 View 2013/08/31 7:38:33.53 PM The Dark Knight Rises £7.50 £0.00
118590 View 2013/08/31 7:38:35.53 PM The Dark Knight Rises £7.50 £0.00
118591 View 2013/08/31 7:38:37.38 PM The Dark Knight Rises £7.50 £7.50
118592 View 2013/08/31 7:38:40.47 PM The Dark Knight Rises £7.50 £0.00
118593 View 2013/08/31 7:38:42.37 PM The Dark Knight Rises £7.50 £0.00
118594 View 2013/08/31 7:38:45.49 PM The Dark Knight Rises £7.50 £0.00
118595 View 2013/08/31 7:38:47.29 PM The Dark Knight Rises £7.50 £0.00
118597 View 2013/08/31 7:39:29.09 PM The Dark Knight Rises £7.50 £0.00
118598 View 2013/08/31 7:39:31.53 PM The Dark Knight Rises £7.50 £0.00
118599 View 2013/08/31 7:39:33.53 PM The Dark Knight Rises £7.50 £7.50
118600 View 2013/08/31 7:39:40.79 PM The Dark Knight Rises £7.50 £0.00
118601 View 2013/08/31 7:39:42.49 PM The Dark Knight Rises £7.50 £0.00
118602 View 2013/08/31 7:39:44.17 PM The Dark Knight Rises £7.50 £0.00
118603 View 2013/08/31 7:39:46.02 PM The Dark Knight Rises £7.50 £0.00
118604 View 2013/08/31 7:39:47.81 PM The Dark Knight Rises £7.50 £0.00
118605 View 2013/08/31 7:39:49.78 PM The Dark Knight Rises £7.50 £9.50
118606 View 2013/08/31 7:39:57.37 PM The Dark Knight Rises £7.50 £5.00
118607 View 2013/08/31 7:40:00.34 PM The Dark Knight Rises £7.50 £0.00
118608 View 2013/08/31 7:40:02.24 PM The Dark Knight Rises £7.50 £18.75
118609 View 2013/08/31 7:40:09.49 PM The Dark Knight Rises £7.50 £0.00
118610 View 2013/08/31 7:40:11.34 PM The Dark Knight Rises £7.50 £0.00
118611 View 2013/08/31 7:40:13.06 PM The Dark Knight Rises £7.50 £0.00
118612 View 2013/08/31 7:40:14.77 PM The Dark Knight Rises £7.50 £0.00
118613 View 2013/08/31 7:40:16.53 PM The Dark Knight Rises £7.50 £0.00
118614 View 2013/08/31 7:40:18.17 PM The Dark Knight Rises £7.50 £0.00
118615 View 2013/08/31 7:40:19.88 PM The Dark Knight Rises £7.50 £0.00
118616 View 2013/08/31 7:40:21.52 PM The Dark Knight Rises £7.50 £7.50
118617 View 2013/08/31 7:40:24.24 PM The Dark Knight Rises £7.50 £36.25
118618 View 2013/08/31 7:40:27.02 PM The Dark Knight Rises £7.50 £0.00
118619 View 2013/08/31 7:40:28.75 PM The Dark Knight Rises £7.50 £0.00
118620 View 2013/08/31 7:40:30.36 PM The Dark Knight Rises £7.50 £0.00
118621 View 2013/08/31 7:40:32.01 PM The Dark Knight Rises £7.50 £2.50
118622 View 2013/08/31 7:40:38.72 PM The Dark Knight Rises £7.50 £3.75
118623 View 2013/08/31 7:40:41.57 PM The Dark Knight Rises £7.50 £2.50
118624 View 2013/08/31 7:40:44.60 PM The Dark Knight Rises £7.50 £0.00
118625 View 2013/08/31 7:40:46.49 PM The Dark Knight Rises £7.50 £7.50
118626 View 2013/08/31 7:40:49.93 PM The Dark Knight Rises £7.50 £0.00
118627 View 2013/08/31 7:40:51.69 PM The Dark Knight Rises £7.50 £0.00
118628 View 2013/08/31 7:40:53.37 PM The Dark Knight Rises £7.50 £0.00
118629 View 2013/08/31 7:40:55.09 PM The Dark Knight Rises £7.50 £0.00
118630 View 2013/08/31 7:41:30.23 PM The Dark Knight Rises £9.00 £0.00
118631 View 2013/08/31 7:41:32.14 PM The Dark Knight Rises £9.00 £0.00
118632 View 2013/08/31 7:41:33.91 PM The Dark Knight Rises £9.00 £0.00
118633 View 2013/08/31 7:41:35.78 PM The Dark Knight Rises £9.00 £37.50
118634 View 2013/08/31 7:41:38.70 PM The Dark Knight Rises £9.00 £2.40
118635 View 2013/08/31 7:41:41.61 PM The Dark Knight Rises £9.00 £0.00
118636 View 2013/08/31 7:41:43.62 PM The Dark Knight Rises £9.00 £6.00
118637 View 2013/08/31 7:41:46.43 PM The Dark Knight Rises £9.00 £0.00
118638 View 2013/08/31 7:41:48.30 PM The Dark Knight Rises £9.00 £0.00
118639 View 2013/08/31 7:41:50.38 PM The Dark Knight Rises £9.00 £0.00
118640 View 2013/08/31 7:41:52.22 PM The Dark Knight Rises £9.00 £9.00
118641 View 2013/08/31 7:41:55.78 PM The Dark Knight Rises £9.00 £0.00
118642 View 2013/08/31 7:41:57.59 PM The Dark Knight Rises £9.00 £0.00
118643 View 2013/08/31 7:41:59.43 PM The Dark Knight Rises £9.00 £18.00
118644 View 2013/08/31 7:42:06.26 PM The Dark Knight Rises £9.00 £9.00
118645 View 2013/08/31 7:42:09.42 PM The Dark Knight Rises £9.00 £0.00
118646 View 2013/08/31 7:42:11.31 PM The Dark Knight Rises £9.00 £0.00
118647 View 2013/08/31 7:42:13.13 PM The Dark Knight Rises £9.00 £0.00
118648 View 2013/08/31 7:42:14.87 PM The Dark Knight Rises £9.00 £48.00
118649 View 2013/08/31 7:42:18.47 PM The Dark Knight Rises £9.00 £5.40
118650 View 2013/08/31 7:42:21.40 PM The Dark Knight Rises £9.00 £0.00
118651 View 2013/08/31 7:42:23.43 PM The Dark Knight Rises £9.00 £1.50
118652 View 2013/08/31 7:42:26.66 PM The Dark Knight Rises £9.00 £0.00
118653 View 2013/08/31 7:42:28.51 PM The Dark Knight Rises £9.00 £0.00
118654 View 2013/08/31 7:42:30.38 PM The Dark Knight Rises £9.00 £7.20
118655 View 2013/08/31 7:42:37.06 PM The Dark Knight Rises £9.00 £3.00
118656 View 2013/08/31 7:42:39.94 PM The Dark Knight Rises £9.00 £2.40
118657 View 2013/08/31 7:42:42.63 PM The Dark Knight Rises £9.00 £3.00
118658 View 2013/08/31 7:42:45.51 PM The Dark Knight Rises £9.00 £6.00
118659 View 2013/08/31 7:42:48.81 PM The Dark Knight Rises £9.00 £0.00
118660 View 2013/08/31 7:42:50.55 PM The Dark Knight Rises £9.00 £0.00
118661 View 2013/08/31 7:42:52.30 PM The Dark Knight Rises £9.00 £0.00
118662 View 2013/08/31 7:42:54.02 PM The Dark Knight Rises £9.00 £7.20
118663 View 2013/08/31 7:43:01.90 PM The Dark Knight Rises £9.00 £9.00
118664 View 2013/08/31 7:43:04.97 PM The Dark Knight Rises £9.00 £6.00
118665 View 2013/08/31 7:43:08.02 PM The Dark Knight Rises £9.00 £0.00
118666 View 2013/08/31 7:43:09.79 PM The Dark Knight Rises £9.00 £0.00
118667 View 2013/08/31 7:43:12.94 PM The Dark Knight Rises £9.00 £9.00
118668 View 2013/08/31 7:43:15.78 PM The Dark Knight Rises £9.00 £0.00
118669 View 2013/08/31 7:43:17.61 PM The Dark Knight Rises £9.00 £0.00
118670 View 2013/08/31 7:43:19.25 PM The Dark Knight Rises £9.00 £0.00
118671 View 2013/08/31 7:43:21.08 PM The Dark Knight Rises £9.00 £0.00
118672 View 2013/08/31 7:43:22.74 PM The Dark Knight Rises £9.00 £0.00
118673 View 2013/08/31 7:43:24.43 PM The Dark Knight Rises £9.00 £0.00
118674 View 2013/08/31 7:43:26.19 PM The Dark Knight Rises £9.00 £0.00
118675 View 2013/08/31 7:43:27.87 PM The Dark Knight Rises £9.00 £4.50
118676 View 2013/08/31 7:43:34.90 PM The Dark Knight Rises £9.00 £0.00
118677 View 2013/08/31 7:43:36.81 PM The Dark Knight Rises £9.00 £0.00
118678 View 2013/08/31 7:43:38.93 PM The Dark Knight Rises £9.00 £0.00
118679 View 2013/08/31 7:43:40.91 PM The Dark Knight Rises £9.00 £9.00
118680 View 2013/08/31 7:43:44.82 PM The Dark Knight Rises £9.00 £0.00
118682 View 2013/08/31 7:44:21.31 PM The Dark Knight Rises £9.00 £120.00
118683 View 2013/08/31 7:44:23.81 PM The Dark Knight Rises £9.00 £2.40
118684 View 2013/08/31 7:44:26.56 PM The Dark Knight Rises £9.00 £0.00
118685 View 2013/08/31 7:44:28.20 PM The Dark Knight Rises £9.00 £0.00
118686 View 2013/08/31 7:44:29.84 PM The Dark Knight Rises £9.00 £0.00
118687 View 2013/08/31 7:44:31.60 PM The Dark Knight Rises £9.00 £0.00
118688 View 2013/08/31 7:44:33.37 PM The Dark Knight Rises £9.00 £0.00
118689 View 2013/08/31 7:44:34.97 PM The Dark Knight Rises £9.00 £0.00
118690 View 2013/08/31 7:44:36.60 PM The Dark Knight Rises £9.00 £16.50
118691 View 2013/08/31 7:44:44.01 PM The Dark Knight Rises £9.00 £0.00
118692 View 2013/08/31 7:44:45.76 PM The Dark Knight Rises £9.00 £1.50
118693 View 2013/08/31 7:44:48.49 PM The Dark Knight Rises £9.00 £0.00
118694 View 2013/08/31 7:44:50.21 PM The Dark Knight Rises £9.00 £0.00
118695 View 2013/08/31 7:44:53.13 PM The Dark Knight Rises £9.00 £0.00
118696 View 2013/08/31 7:44:55.17 PM The Dark Knight Rises £9.00 £0.00
118697 View 2013/08/31 7:44:56.85 PM The Dark Knight Rises £9.00 £0.00
118698 View 2013/08/31 7:44:58.51 PM The Dark Knight Rises £9.00 £0.00
118699 View 2013/08/31 7:45:00.21 PM The Dark Knight Rises £9.00 £0.00
118700 View 2013/08/31 7:45:01.91 PM The Dark Knight Rises £9.00 £0.00
118701 View 2013/08/31 7:45:03.83 PM The Dark Knight Rises £9.00 £0.00
118702 View 2013/08/31 7:45:05.74 PM The Dark Knight Rises £9.00 £12.00
118703 View 2013/08/31 7:45:08.50 PM The Dark Knight Rises £9.00 £0.00
118704 View 2013/08/31 7:45:56.09 PM The Dark Knight Rises £12.00 £0.00
118705 View 2013/08/31 7:45:57.89 PM The Dark Knight Rises £12.00 £240.00
118706 View 2013/08/31 7:46:04.59 PM The Dark Knight Rises £12.00 £0.00
118707 View 2013/08/31 7:46:06.36 PM The Dark Knight Rises £12.00 £0.00
118708 View 2013/08/31 7:46:08.22 PM The Dark Knight Rises £12.00 £0.00
118709 View 2013/08/31 7:46:09.91 PM The Dark Knight Rises £12.00 £12.00
118710 View 2013/08/31 7:46:12.76 PM The Dark Knight Rises £12.00 £0.00
118711 View 2013/08/31 7:46:14.80 PM The Dark Knight Rises £12.00 £0.00
118712 View 2013/08/31 7:46:17.01 PM The Dark Knight Rises £12.00 £40.00
118713 View 2013/08/31 7:46:20.17 PM The Dark Knight Rises £12.00 £12.00
118714 View 2013/08/31 7:46:23.56 PM The Dark Knight Rises £12.00 £0.00
118715 View 2013/08/31 7:46:25.43 PM The Dark Knight Rises £12.00 £0.00
118716 View 2013/08/31 7:46:27.24 PM The Dark Knight Rises £12.00 £0.00
118717 View 2013/08/31 7:46:28.92 PM The Dark Knight Rises £12.00 £0.00
118718 View 2013/08/31 7:46:30.64 PM The Dark Knight Rises £12.00 £0.00
118719 View 2013/08/31 7:46:32.29 PM The Dark Knight Rises £12.00 £24.00
118720 View 2013/08/31 7:46:35.05 PM The Dark Knight Rises £12.00 £0.00
118721 View 2013/08/31 7:46:36.77 PM The Dark Knight Rises £12.00 £4.00
118722 View 2013/08/31 7:46:39.36 PM The Dark Knight Rises £12.00 £0.00
118723 View 2013/08/31 7:46:41.00 PM The Dark Knight Rises £12.00 £0.00
118724 View 2013/08/31 7:46:42.80 PM The Dark Knight Rises £12.00 £12.00
118725 View 2013/08/31 7:46:46.09 PM The Dark Knight Rises £12.00 £0.00
118726 View 2013/08/31 7:46:47.88 PM The Dark Knight Rises £12.00 £0.00
118727 View 2013/08/31 7:46:49.64 PM The Dark Knight Rises £12.00 £0.00
118728 View 2013/08/31 7:46:51.33 PM The Dark Knight Rises £12.00 £0.00
118729 View 2013/08/31 7:46:52.99 PM The Dark Knight Rises £12.00 £0.00
118730 View 2013/08/31 7:46:54.68 PM The Dark Knight Rises £12.00 £0.00
118731 View 2013/08/31 7:46:56.32 PM The Dark Knight Rises £12.00 £0.00
118732 View 2013/08/31 7:46:58.15 PM The Dark Knight Rises £12.00 £14.00
118733 View 2013/08/31 7:47:04.99 PM The Dark Knight Rises £12.00 £0.00
118734 View 2013/08/31 7:47:06.71 PM The Dark Knight Rises £12.00 £0.00
118735 View 2013/08/31 7:47:08.36 PM The Dark Knight Rises £12.00 £0.00
118736 View 2013/08/31 7:47:10.00 PM The Dark Knight Rises £12.00 £0.00
118737 View 2013/08/31 7:47:11.69 PM The Dark Knight Rises £12.00 £0.00
118738 View 2013/08/31 7:47:13.64 PM The Dark Knight Rises £12.00 £0.00
118739 View 2013/08/31 7:47:16.08 PM The Dark Knight Rises £12.00 £0.00
118740 View 2013/08/31 7:47:17.72 PM The Dark Knight Rises £12.00 £2.00
118741 View 2013/08/31 7:47:20.40 PM The Dark Knight Rises £12.00 £4.00
118742 View 2013/08/31 7:47:23.29 PM The Dark Knight Rises £12.00 £0.00
118743 View 2013/08/31 7:47:25.01 PM The Dark Knight Rises £12.00 £0.00
118744 View 2013/08/31 7:47:26.68 PM The Dark Knight Rises £12.00 £0.00
118745 View 2013/08/31 7:47:28.48 PM The Dark Knight Rises £12.00 £0.00
118746 View 2013/08/31 7:47:30.20 PM The Dark Knight Rises £12.00 £0.00
118747 View 2013/08/31 7:47:32.32 PM The Dark Knight Rises £12.00 £0.00
118748 View 2013/08/31 7:47:34.15 PM The Dark Knight Rises £12.00 £16.00
118749 View 2013/08/31 7:47:36.84 PM The Dark Knight Rises £12.00 £0.00
118750 View 2013/08/31 7:47:38.68 PM The Dark Knight Rises £12.00 £36.00
118751 View 2013/08/31 7:47:41.37 PM The Dark Knight Rises £12.00 £0.00
118752 View 2013/08/31 7:47:43.08 PM The Dark Knight Rises £12.00 £0.00
118753 View 2013/08/31 7:47:44.72 PM The Dark Knight Rises £12.00 £8.00
118754 View 2013/08/31 7:47:47.48 PM The Dark Knight Rises £12.00 £0.00
118755 View 2013/08/31 7:47:49.16 PM The Dark Knight Rises £12.00 £0.00
118756 View 2013/08/31 7:47:51.28 PM The Dark Knight Rises £12.00 £0.00
118757 View 2013/08/31 7:47:53.16 PM The Dark Knight Rises £12.00 £0.00
118758 View 2013/08/31 7:47:54.99 PM The Dark Knight Rises £12.00 £0.00
118759 View 2013/08/31 7:47:56.69 PM The Dark Knight Rises £12.00 £3.20
118760 View 2013/08/31 7:47:59.53 PM The Dark Knight Rises £12.00 £12.00
118761 View 2013/08/31 7:48:02.53 PM The Dark Knight Rises £12.00 £0.00
118762 View 2013/08/31 7:48:04.24 PM The Dark Knight Rises £12.00 £8.00
118763 View 2013/08/31 7:48:06.87 PM The Dark Knight Rises £12.00 £0.00
118764 View 2013/08/31 7:48:08.72 PM The Dark Knight Rises £12.00 £12.00
118765 View 2013/08/31 7:48:11.52 PM The Dark Knight Rises £12.00 £0.00
118766 View 2013/08/31 7:48:13.72 PM The Dark Knight Rises £12.00 £0.00
118767 View 2013/08/31 7:48:15.36 PM The Dark Knight Rises £12.00 £12.00
118768 View 2013/08/31 7:48:18.36 PM The Dark Knight Rises £12.00 £0.00
118769 View 2013/08/31 7:48:20.52 PM The Dark Knight Rises £12.00 £0.00
118770 View 2013/08/31 7:48:22.24 PM The Dark Knight Rises £12.00 £3.20
118771 View 2013/08/31 7:48:24.89 PM The Dark Knight Rises £12.00 £0.00
118772 View 2013/08/31 7:48:27.24 PM The Dark Knight Rises £12.00 £0.00

New Session (redeposit, busted out)

118786 View 2013/08/31 8:39:37.06 PM The Dark Knight Rises £12.00 £0.00
118787 View 2013/08/31 8:39:38.91 PM The Dark Knight Rises £12.00 £0.00
118788 View 2013/08/31 8:39:40.50 PM The Dark Knight Rises £12.00 £0.00
118789 View 2013/08/31 8:39:42.21 PM The Dark Knight Rises £12.00 £0.00
118790 View 2013/08/31 8:39:43.99 PM The Dark Knight Rises £12.00 £12.00
118791 View 2013/08/31 8:39:47.23 PM The Dark Knight Rises £12.00 £8.00
118792 View 2013/08/31 8:39:50.03 PM The Dark Knight Rises £12.00 £0.00
118793 View 2013/08/31 8:39:51.78 PM The Dark Knight Rises £12.00 £4.00
118794 View 2013/08/31 8:39:54.75 PM The Dark Knight Rises £12.00 £0.00
118795 View 2013/08/31 8:39:56.51 PM The Dark Knight Rises £12.00 £0.00
118796 View 2013/08/31 8:39:58.24 PM The Dark Knight Rises £12.00 £50.00
118797 View 2013/08/31 8:40:01.45 PM The Dark Knight Rises £12.00 £0.00
118798 View 2013/08/31 8:40:03.22 PM The Dark Knight Rises £12.00 £3.20
118799 View 2013/08/31 8:40:06.20 PM The Dark Knight Rises £12.00 £2.00
118800 View 2013/08/31 8:40:09.37 PM The Dark Knight Rises £12.00 £0.00
118801 View 2013/08/31 8:40:11.34 PM The Dark Knight Rises £12.00 £0.00
118802 View 2013/08/31 8:40:13.10 PM The Dark Knight Rises £12.00 £6.00
118803 View 2013/08/31 8:40:15.82 PM The Dark Knight Rises £12.00 £0.00
118804 View 2013/08/31 8:40:18.30 PM The Dark Knight Rises £12.00 £0.00
118805 View 2013/08/31 8:40:20.03 PM The Dark Knight Rises £12.00 £0.00
118806 View 2013/08/31 8:40:21.98 PM The Dark Knight Rises £12.00 £0.00
118807 View 2013/08/31 8:40:23.66 PM The Dark Knight Rises £12.00 £0.00
118808 View 2013/08/31 8:40:29.02 PM The Dark Knight Rises £12.00 £0.00
118809 View 2013/08/31 8:40:30.76 PM The Dark Knight Rises £12.00 £0.00
118810 View 2013/08/31 8:40:32.53 PM The Dark Knight Rises £12.00 £8.00
118811 View 2013/08/31 8:40:35.15 PM The Dark Knight Rises £12.00 £0.00
118812 View 2013/08/31 8:40:36.93 PM The Dark Knight Rises £12.00 £0.00
118813 View 2013/08/31 8:40:39.03 PM The Dark Knight Rises £12.00 £0.00
118814 View 2013/08/31 8:40:41.16 PM The Dark Knight Rises £12.00 £0.00
118815 View 2013/08/31 8:40:43.37 PM The Dark Knight Rises £12.00 £48.00
118816 View 2013/08/31 8:40:46.42 PM The Dark Knight Rises £12.00 £4.00
118817 View 2013/08/31 8:40:49.09 PM The Dark Knight Rises £12.00 £3.20
118818 View 2013/08/31 8:40:51.99 PM The Dark Knight Rises £12.00 £7.20
118819 View 2013/08/31 8:40:54.74 PM The Dark Knight Rises £12.00 £0.00
118820 View 2013/08/31 8:40:56.62 PM The Dark Knight Rises £12.00 £0.00
118821 View 2013/08/31 8:40:58.38 PM The Dark Knight Rises £12.00 £3.20
118822 View 2013/08/31 8:41:00.98 PM The Dark Knight Rises £12.00 £0.00
118823 View 2013/08/31 8:41:02.79 PM The Dark Knight Rises £12.00 £0.00
118824 View 2013/08/31 8:41:04.52 PM The Dark Knight Rises £12.00 £3.20
118825 View 2013/08/31 8:41:07.27 PM The Dark Knight Rises £12.00 £0.00
118826 View 2013/08/31 8:41:09.23 PM The Dark Knight Rises £12.00 £0.00
118827 View 2013/08/31 8:41:11.12 PM The Dark Knight Rises £12.00 £0.00
118828 View 2013/08/31 8:41:12.84 PM The Dark Knight Rises £12.00 £24.00
118829 View 2013/08/31 8:41:15.55 PM The Dark Knight Rises £12.00 £0.00
118830 View 2013/08/31 8:41:17.41 PM The Dark Knight Rises £12.00 £0.00
118831 View 2013/08/31 8:41:19.13 PM The Dark Knight Rises £12.00 £9.60
118832 View 2013/08/31 8:41:25.76 PM The Dark Knight Rises £12.00 £19.20
118833 View 2013/08/31 8:41:28.83 PM The Dark Knight Rises £12.00 £6.00
118834 View 2013/08/31 8:41:31.66 PM The Dark Knight Rises £12.00 £0.00
118835 View 2013/08/31 8:41:33.37 PM The Dark Knight Rises £12.00 £0.00
118836 View 2013/08/31 8:41:35.17 PM The Dark Knight Rises £12.00 £0.00
118838 View 2013/08/31 8:42:10.77 PM The Dark Knight Rises £12.00 £0.00
118839 View 2013/08/31 8:42:12.49 PM The Dark Knight Rises £12.00 £60.00
118840 View 2013/08/31 8:42:15.09 PM The Dark Knight Rises £12.00 £0.00
118841 View 2013/08/31 8:42:17.07 PM The Dark Knight Rises £12.00 £0.00
118842 View 2013/08/31 8:42:18.75 PM The Dark Knight Rises £12.00 £0.00
118843 View 2013/08/31 8:42:20.47 PM The Dark Knight Rises £12.00 £78.00
118844 View 2013/08/31 8:42:29.80 PM The Dark Knight Rises £12.00 £6.00
118845 View 2013/08/31 8:42:32.49 PM The Dark Knight Rises £12.00 £0.00
118846 View 2013/08/31 8:42:34.36 PM The Dark Knight Rises £12.00 £0.00
118847 View 2013/08/31 8:42:36.04 PM The Dark Knight Rises £12.00 £24.00
118848 View 2013/08/31 8:42:38.72 PM The Dark Knight Rises £12.00 £0.00
118849 View 2013/08/31 8:42:40.39 PM The Dark Knight Rises £12.00 £12.00
118850 View 2013/08/31 8:46:07.01 PM The Dark Knight Rises £12.00 £782.40

...and again..

118851 View 2013/08/31 8:46:22.77 PM The Dark Knight Rises £3.00 £0.00
118852 View 2013/08/31 8:46:24.57 PM The Dark Knight Rises £3.00 £3.00
118853 View 2013/08/31 8:46:27.42 PM The Dark Knight Rises £3.00 £0.50
118854 View 2013/08/31 8:46:30.14 PM The Dark Knight Rises £3.00 £0.00
118855 View 2013/08/31 8:46:31.90 PM The Dark Knight Rises £3.00 £2.00
118856 View 2013/08/31 8:46:34.81 PM The Dark Knight Rises £3.00 £0.00
118857 View 2013/08/31 8:46:36.86 PM The Dark Knight Rises £3.00 £0.00
118858 View 2013/08/31 8:46:38.58 PM The Dark Knight Rises £3.00 £37.50
118859 View 2013/08/31 8:46:46.34 PM The Dark Knight Rises £3.00 £1.50
118860 View 2013/08/31 8:46:49.25 PM The Dark Knight Rises £3.00 £0.00
118861 View 2013/08/31 8:48:23.20 PM The Dark Knight Rises £3.00 £0.00
118862 View 2013/08/31 8:48:24.68 PM The Dark Knight Rises £3.00 £0.00

etc..

 

[Igor82]

Here is the run I made leading up to the trigger at £12 of the free spins, increasing the bet a little each time I got the fight sequence.

Clearly, my average bet was not £12, even though my free spins were all paid at the £12 triggering bet.

This run didn't take long, but with enough confidence, and a big enough bankroll, 7 days would have been long enough to have caused very serious issues for an operator, especially a small one.

You have the snapshot of this hand?

118850 View 2013/08/31 8:46:07.01 PM The Dark Knight Rises £12.00 £782.40

I'll ask MGS direct question as to whether the freespins trigger on lifetime bet average or on session bet average (you started a new session after re-deposit)

 

[Patriot66]

You have the snapshot of this hand?

118850 View 2013/08/31 8:46:07.01 PM The Dark Knight Rises £12.00 £782.40

I'll ask MGS direct question as to whether the freespins trigger on lifetime bet average or on session bet average (you started a new session after re-deposit)

There is a third (and in my opinion most likely) option.

It could either be lifetime bet average, session bet average or 'free spin cycle' bet average (which I would say it really has to be).

 

[vinylweatherman]

You have the snapshot of this hand?

118850 View 2013/08/31 8:46:07.01 PM The Dark Knight Rises £12.00 £782.40

I'll ask MGS direct question as to whether the freespins trigger on lifetime bet average or on session bet average (you started a new session after re-deposit)

Yes, it's actually the one I posted, but what I posted was from one of the free spins, so below I have posted the master record which confirms the transaction number, shows the trigger on the slot, and has the financial summary.

You should also ask MGS when they knew, and whether it is true a fix was applied on the 8th. Depending on their answer, you could ask them why they told you what they did when you asked about this. Lastly, you could find an example from your own casino, which would give you first hand access to the evidence, and also access to the full detail through your back end software, rather than the very limited access players have for data mining their Playcheck logs.

You could also think about the potential exposure you faced for about a week, especially given that you assured us that had this player won the 20K at your casino, you would have honoured it rather than used "malfunction voids play" to wriggle out of it.

I can only assume 20K is the tip of the iceberg for the OP's casino.

There is a third (and in my opinion most likely) option.

It could either be lifetime bet average, session bet average or 'free spin cycle' bet average (which I would say it really has to be).

I am pretty sure it is now the "free spin cycle" average bet, but before it was simply the triggering bet.

There were many ways to potentially exploit this, and an even more aggressive approach might have been to increase the bet by more, but only when the multiplier went up. Even more extreme might be to play for ages at 0.30, and wait for something rare like 60 @ 5x or more, and then rack the bet right up to the max of £75, and hold your nerve (as with Martingale, it could produce a disaster, but longer term should have paid off handsomely).

If it was session bet, it could just as easily be exploited simply by logging off after the fight sequence, and logging back on to increase the bet.

Given how rushed the fix appears to have been (no yanking of the game for further testing), I wonder how "well" it has been fixed. It looks like this is being tested in the field.

 

[GrandMaster]

No need to speculate, there is a very thorough blow by blow account in Playcheck. I do not need to speculate at all, it's all there!!!. The problem is that it's all TRAPPED there, as Microgaming have never allowed players to download their Playcheck data. There is no easy way to grab all the data in detail, as it would literally occupy hundreds, if not thousands, of individual screenshots.

Copying it into a spreadsheet is a much more sensible way of doing it.

 

[vinylweatherman]

Copying it into a spreadsheet is a much more sensible way of doing it.

It doesn't work. It does not honour the columns, and just makes the whole thing messier (I've tried this before with Playcheck). It may work from the text file, but would not be of much benefit as Playcheck has many levels holding the detail, which have to be clicked through. This transaction summary does not contain the free spins, this is in the detail section of the triggering transaction, and is not presented as a sheet of transactions either, but a graphic rich sequence of screens that have to be clicked through, one for each free spin.

What is needed is a means to download the data to process locally. Microgaming have resisted adding such an option to both Playcheck and Cashcheck.

 

[mimi26]

Can someone please tell me if the lowest bet is 1.20, as at Ladbrokes I could only play with 4 or 5 coins