Casino Complaint Vernons Casino - required notarized ID before making a payout, costing perhaps £100

sixsongs

Dormant account
Joined
May 30, 2012
Location
uk
After depositing, receiving the first sign-up bonus and playing through all the requirements, I tried to make my first withdrawal.

Like others who have posted here, I was asked to send them ID with a Notary Seal - difficult and expensive to obtain in the UK. I've never heard of a casino that requires this before.

Their representative said in another thread that this was an extremely rare occurance, but this is hard to believe, as my withdrawal is for not a large sum.

They are also no longer picking up when I try to contact them on the online chat support.

Since they are pending accreditation here, I thought I would post and see if their representative has any response. In particular, is it acceptable to provide ID certified by, eg, a bank or solicitor, rather than a Notary Seal, a rarely used device in the UK?

Thank you.
 

GrandMaster

Dormant account
Joined
Jan 21, 2004
Location
UK
Here is the list of notaries public in England & Wales:
You do not have permission to view link Log in or register now.
. If you are in Scotland or NI, you have to do your own homework. Phone them up and ask them how much they would charge, you should be able to find one who does it for a lot less than £100.
 

ChopleyIOM

Hearthstone Addict
webby
Joined
Mar 25, 2012
Location
IOM
Copy and paste from what I said in the other Vernons thread below.

If you don't mind me asking sixsongs, how much is your withdrawal for? Are we talking tens or hundred or thousands?

-----------------

I think this is a totally BS request, and speaks volumes about the kind of operation we're talking about here. They just don't want to pay you, that's all there is to it.

Some sort of documentation, maybe, but a notary seal on an ID for a small withdrawal? Pure nonsense.

Have you asked them if they'll accept anything 'lesser', such as a driving licence, utility bill, that sort of thing? I don't think you should have to get your ID 'certified' by anyone, they didn't require anything like that when you were giving them money, after all.
 

dionysus

Good(w)ill Ambassador
CAG
MM
Joined
Apr 27, 2009
Location
the land of snow and maple syrup
Gotta love that logic sometimes, huh.."Oh, please, deposit thousands, we don't care WHO you are...what, you want to TAKE money? Oh,sorry sir, you need to sign in the blood of a virgin on the third full moon of the year, while dancing through various and sundry hoops'.

It's amazing really, since some casinos don't even ask for ID AT ALL.
 

vinylweatherman

You type well loads
Joined
Oct 14, 2004
Location
United Kingdom
Since they are pending accreditation, save yourself the £100 and PAB (a free service offered for CM members).

They will also have a rep here (a requirement for accreditation), so a PM to them could also help, and should be tried right away whilst you go through the PAB FAQ.

The most important thing to remember is not to post further about this problem as it could damage the chances of a PAB being successful.

A "certified copy" would normally suffice, and they are around £5 each. You do not need a qualified solicitor for this, which is probably where the £100 quote is coming from.
 

Nifty29

Dormant account
Joined
Jun 20, 2001
Location
Turn right, then right. then right again
After depositing, receiving the first sign-up bonus and playing through all the requirements, I tried to make my first withdrawal.

Like others who have posted here, I was asked to send them ID with a Notary Seal - difficult and expensive to obtain in the UK. I've never heard of a casino that requires this before.

Their representative said in another thread that this was an extremely rare occurance, but this is hard to believe, as my withdrawal is for not a large sum.

They are also no longer picking up when I try to contact them on the online chat support.

Since they are pending accreditation here, I thought I would post and see if their representative has any response. In particular, is it acceptable to provide ID certified by, eg, a bank or solicitor, rather than a Notary Seal, a rarely used device in the UK?

Thank you.

Why do you think they're asking for this level of ID?

In my experience, there is usually a good reason.
 

P.V.

Senior Member
webmeister
Joined
Apr 17, 2010
Location
Turn around...
Why do you think they're asking for this level of ID?

In my experience, there is usually a good reason.


I've never been a fan of notarized document requests, I know why it's being done but feel as though the IGaming industry needs to think about the player too and not just their needs.

Why the need for a notarized document? Must be because they can't tell if it's real, so they feel a notary can confirm this fact for them. IGaming sites need to educate them self with what they're viewing, in addition to all the other documents being requested. For U.S. players, if they provide a valid ID, proof of address, last 4 of a SS# to enter into a database for cross checking among other requests, that should be acceptable. IMO

No way will legal U.S. gambling sites, when everything gets rolling require notarized documents, I'll explain why. The U.S. ADA laws would not stand for IGaming sites requiring a handicapped player to go and find a way to get documents notarized to gamble online, or get paid. It has to be an equal playing field and this requirement will never fly.

I've also been addressing phone verification within the IGaming industry and this doesn't fly as a requirement either, due to ADA. A deaf person isn't capable of phone verification, so no go with that. The industry must understand that a deaf person can't do phone verification, maybe text but not voice. Again an equal playing field must be met.

Maybe Nifty is right, they've found an issue but surely there's a better way than making this player go to a notary. Again JMO.
I implemented a simple system, kind of like CM's awards system. Approved doc's, by multiple site's grows in number which gives a player higher presence and an IGaming site's additional assurance.

For any skeptics with my ADA knowledge, I deal with this daily within my primary business, forget PV and understand the equality of every individual.
 

mn001

Full Member
Joined
Sep 21, 2005
Location
Casino
I see no problems about them requesting this. But they have to pay for it upfront or via some deal like you pay first and get it back on payout plus something extra for the extra work.

They don't ask you to pay for their verifications? If so it's scam and nothing else.
 

GrandMaster

Dormant account
Joined
Jan 21, 2004
Location
UK
The U.S. ADA laws would not stand for IGaming sites requiring a handicapped player to go and find a way to get documents notarized to gamble online, or get paid. It has to be an equal playing field and this requirement will never fly.
Would you elaborate?
 

Nifty29

Dormant account
Joined
Jun 20, 2001
Location
Turn right, then right. then right again
I see no problems about them requesting this. But they have to pay for it upfront or via some deal like you pay first and get it back on payout plus something extra for the extra work.

They don't ask you to pay for their verifications? If so it's scam and nothing else.

I think its possible the scam is on the other end, so let's just wait and see eh?

I don't think casinos should have to pay for players to prove their identity. Anyone playing online should ensure they have photo ID of some kind, even if its not issued as standard.
 

vinylweatherman

You type well loads
Joined
Oct 14, 2004
Location
United Kingdom
I think its possible the scam is on the other end, so let's just wait and see eh?

I don't think casinos should have to pay for players to prove their identity. Anyone playing online should ensure they have photo ID of some kind, even if its not issued as standard.

This is not necessarily that easy, as not all forms of photo ID are accepted, even though they may be the only forms a player can get hold of easily.

The problem here is not a failure to have the type of ID needed, but the fact the casino says it has to be notarised. Since this isn't standard, the casino should pay if it turns out their suspicions were wrong.

In fact, many casinos DO refund such costs if the player is found to be genuine, as they hardly want to drive away a genuine player by putting them through unnecessary expense.

They could always ask the OP for a photo of himself holding his document, something that won't cost £100, and could be done with the help of a friend and a digital camera.
 

ThePOGG

Meister Member
webmeister
Joined
Feb 17, 2012
Location
UK
This is not necessarily that easy, as not all forms of photo ID are accepted, even though they may be the only forms a player can get hold of easily.

The problem here is not a failure to have the type of ID needed, but the fact the casino says it has to be notarised. Since this isn't standard, the casino should pay if it turns out their suspicions were wrong.

In fact, many casinos DO refund such costs if the player is found to be genuine, as they hardly want to drive away a genuine player by putting them through unnecessary expense.

They could always ask the OP for a photo of himself holding his document, something that won't cost £100, and could be done with the help of a friend and a digital camera.

I'm aware of a lot of instances where players have been requested to obtain notarised ID and then paid by the casino, but i've never once heard of a casino that was willing to reimburse the expense - i'd be interested to hear which ones have? IMO, by the time it gets to this request, it's often not really about the ID. It's usually about the casino sending a message - i.e. we think you played abusively and as you've cost us money, we're now going to cost you money. It's an aggressive and unprofessional way to tell players not to come back and it's very rare to find one of the really good casinos going down this route.

I'd also agree with the last thing you said - as long as the casino would accept the document if it was notarized, if you can get a photo of yourself holding the document close enough to see your cheesy grin and the pic on the doc, this provides exactly the same level of security to the casino that the notary does, it just doesn't cost the money.
 

vinylweatherman

You type well loads
Joined
Oct 14, 2004
Location
United Kingdom
I'm aware of a lot of instances where players have been requested to obtain notarised ID and then paid by the casino, but i've never once heard of a casino that was willing to reimburse the expense - i'd be interested to hear which ones have? IMO, by the time it gets to this request, it's often not really about the ID. It's usually about the casino sending a message - i.e. we think you played abusively and as you've cost us money, we're now going to cost you money. It's an aggressive and unprofessional way to tell players not to come back and it's very rare to find one of the really good casinos going down this route.

I'd also agree with the last thing you said - as long as the casino would accept the document if it was notarized, if you can get a photo of yourself holding the document close enough to see your cheesy grin and the pic on the doc, this provides exactly the same level of security to the casino that the notary does, it just doesn't cost the money.

They have been playing at the wrong casinos.

If they are not willing to reimburse the costs when their suspicions prove to be unfounded, they are more likely to be using it as a tactic as you say, as if they valued the players, they would ensure the innocent didn't lose out because of measures being taken to catch the guilty.

It could even be a tactic to avoid paying a large number of relatively small sums, as players would walk away rather than go to such lengths that might cost them more than the amount of their withdrawal.

As an accredited casino, I would expect vernons to be more flexible, and reimburse innocent players who's documents are wrongly rejected due to errors or omissions elsewhere.
 

mn001

Full Member
Joined
Sep 21, 2005
Location
Casino
I think its possible the scam is on the other end, so let's just wait and see eh?

I don't think casinos should have to pay for players to prove their identity. Anyone playing online should ensure they have photo ID of some kind, even if its not issued as standard.

Passport, id, driving license, holding it up and take a pic of yourself and everything like that is ok. But notarized documents costs a lot and a player should never pay for this. Here it would cost around $100. What's next, maybe they want a DNA analyze. Would easily cost a few thousands here. Should I pay this also? Maybe they want to fly over here and check so my adress is ok, should i send them flight tickets?

A player should never pay for player verification.
 

aceking123

Paleo Meister (means really, really old)
Joined
Mar 4, 2008
Location
uk
hi problem is i now have the same problem , as my passport has run out & i have old uk style paper licence so this now puts me into problems regarding photo id , most casinos even though i deposit mainly via neteller realy arnt to bothered about what some uk players have in regards to id photos as long as you have one . also although im a vip with neteller & have already been checked out , this holds no wait either , i dont use any cards at nost casinos any longer apart from maybe only two casino to whome i trust with these details so where do you go from here other than getting my passport renewed , not that im holiday this year & if i upgrade my licence this going to be another 3-5 weeks aswell .
 

vinylweatherman

You type well loads
Joined
Oct 14, 2004
Location
United Kingdom
hi problem is i now have the same problem , as my passport has run out & i have old uk style paper licence so this now puts me into problems regarding photo id , most casinos even though i deposit mainly via neteller realy arnt to bothered about what some uk players have in regards to id photos as long as you have one . also although im a vip with neteller & have already been checked out , this holds no wait either , i dont use any cards at nost casinos any longer apart from maybe only two casino to whome i trust with these details so where do you go from here other than getting my passport renewed , not that im holiday this year & if i upgrade my licence this going to be another 3-5 weeks aswell .

Safest would be to stop playing, and when they contact you to ask why, tell them that you fear not being able to get your money out until you have renewed your passport.

It is amazing how quickly some casinos get in contact when a loyal player suddenly stops depositing for no obvious (to them) reason.

As you have seen, no amount of accreditation and status at places like Neteller is any good. If a casino asks what they can do, suggest they cover the costs of getting an updated license or renewed passport, and it will shorten the time they have to wait until your next deposit.
 

thelawnet

Dormant account
Joined
Apr 4, 2005
Location
UK
Just to add a datapoint, Vernons have been badgering me to make deposits, offering bonuses every 2 or 3 days, VIP status, etc., I lost a few thousand in the process. Made a cashout (£7k), and all of a sudden they aren't so friendly.

Email 1:

"Please note that as stated in the Terms and Conditions, when You choose to receive Bonuses from Us, generate winnings from such Bonuses in excess of Five Thousand Pounds (£5,000) and subsequently request a withdrawal, we reserve the right to restrict such withdrawal to a maximum of five thousand pounds (£5,000) in any 30 day period. The winnings subject to such withdrawal request that exceed such limit will be placed back into Your Player Account.

Your recently requested withdrawal/s are in an amount that exceeds the monthly withdrawal limit.

The amount which exceeds the allowed limit has been returned to your account balance.

We deeply regret any inconvenience caused and appreciate your cooperation with our policy.
"

Email 2:

"we request that you provide us with a utility bill or a bank statement displaying the address that you registered with us.

The document must display the following:

• full name and the address as registered in your account
• Company logo (displayed clearly)
• Date (within a three(3) month period)

Additionally, the document sent must be:

• clear and legible
• a full document (letters, pay slips/stubs, folded paper, envelopes and partial sections are unacceptable)
• in either jpeg, adobe, tiff file formats
• less than 1MB (if sent as an e-mail attachment)

"

Email 3:

"As part of our security procedures, we ask that you provide the following details:

1) Your valid photo identification (e.g. passport or driving license) that shows the address currently registered in your gaming account. If your ID does not show the address registered, please provide a utility bill or bank statement that does. Please be advised we will still require a copy of the photo ID.

2) Front and back copies of the credit cards you used to deposit in your account. If you no longer have one of these credit cards, a bank statement for the card in question will suffice. Please be sure that the credit card number and your name are listed on the document. Please note as it is necessary for us to see only the first 6 and last 4 digits, we suggest that you hide the middle digits as a security precaution.

3) Below you will find a detailed list of all the transactions you have made with our gaming site, in the account<deleted>. Please review the list below, print it out, sign each page and scan or take a digital photo of this document and e-mail it back to us.


Date Credit Card # Amount

<deleted>


IMPORTANT: Please note that each page of the form should be signed. In the event that some pages are not signed, the form will not be accepted as valid.
"

Email 4:

"Your withdrawal request for the total amount of £5,000.00 is currently being reviewed. As part of our security process, we require the front and back copies of the credit cards used to deposit in your account.

The credit card copies must display the following:

• Name (as registered in the account)
• Expiration date
• First 6 and last 4 digits on front of the credit card
• Last 4 digits of the credit card number at the back of the card. As a security precaution, we suggest that you hide the CVV2 code.
• signature

"

Email 5:

"Your withdrawal request for the total amount of £5,000.00 is currently being reviewed. As part of our security process, we require a notarized copy of your photo ID.

The Notarized ID must display the following:

• Photo
• First and last name
• Billing address as registered in the account
• Birth date
• Expiration date (if one is not present on the document please specify)
• Signature
• Notary seal

Additionally, the documents sent must be:

• clear and legible
• on blank, full sheet of paper

The notarized copy of your photo ID must be sent via courier to:

Vernons Casino Customer Services
Walton House
55 Charnock Road
Liverpool
L67 1AA
"

I sent them an email querying the latter point, and they say:

"Thank you for your email.

I previously had a document notarized in 2009. This cost me £75 and was reimbursed by the casino. The cost may have increased slightly now, I haven't checked yet.

Could you please confirm that you will reimburse this cost.

Thank you.
"

Reply:
"This is Red from the Vernons Casino Support Team.

Please be advised that we do not reimburse fees for Notarization of your documents. Note that as per Terms and Conditions, "5.5 You shall provide Us with all information requested by Us from time to time that is necessary for the operation of Your Player Account, including, but not limited to, proof of identity, notarized documentation, proof of address, utility bills, bank details, bank statements and bank references. You shall provide Us with any such requested documents immediately upon request and not later than within a reasonable time of response. Subject to clause 3.7, all information provided by You to Us pursuant to this clause 5.5 shall be held by Us in confidence and in accordance with the terms of Our Privacy Policy."

Thank you.
"
 

vinylweatherman

You type well loads
Joined
Oct 14, 2004
Location
United Kingdom
It seems they have some pretty draconian terms, and worse still, they are trickling out these requests rather than giving the whole requirement in one go. A limit of £5000 per 30 days is something one would normally see in a "clip joint", and not what one would expect from Vernons.

To add another datapoint, Vernons have absorbed Littlewoods, once a Cryptologic casino, but I quit playing when they changed software. First I remember they went to Cassava, then it seems they ditched that and went with Playtech, and finally they closed up and sold their players on to Vernons. Apart from a few emails to inform me of the change and what "welcome to Vernons" offers they are running, I have not had anything that I would deem "badgering to make a deposit". I may now have more than one account at Vernons, which long ago I believe was using Chartwell.

The above £5000 per 30 day limit and "endless" ramping up of the documentary requirements look like stalling tactics (in particular the £5000/30 day throttling of cashing out a win).

The sending of notarised documents by courier suggests Playtech (am I right?), but at least they have told a UK player to send them to a UK address, rather than Manila.

Other than the notarisation, the other requests are pretty standard, but why a string of 5 emails rather than clearly set out the full set of requirements in one.

As this is UK player to UK address, this falls under the UK consumer regulations (everything apart from the actual gambling), and they may find they are acting unreasonably in not reimbursing customers for additional costs over and above the norm expected of such a consumer to business relationship. Far more expensive for them though is pissing off a player that is about to walk off with a £7K win, that probably now will not get lost back to the casino over time, but will end up with a competitor.

Hold firm, get the first £5000 and then just sit out the 30 days for the rest, play not a single spin. I bet one idea behind this tactic is that anything above £5K gets played back during the 30 day wait, thus effectively limiting what they end up paying to a player. If they still start badgering for further deposits, you can say they don't get a penny until they have reimbursed the additional costs of notarisation and the courier. If they fall for it, withdraw those fees too, and STILL don't go back - that will teach them not to try this kind of dodgy tactic on the more experienced player.
 
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