Unauthorised Withdrawal from My Neteller Account

[Haviton]

At this time, to ensure I receive unbiased comments, I will not nake the casino but this happened to me over the week.

At the weekend, I opened a casino account. Deposited via Neteller and received my bonus.

I withdrew a profit of 800. 3 days later, they paid me 200 (Dep) and 800.

The next day, and this is my gripe, they, without my consent, withdrew the 800 back from my neteller account. I was away until the weekend and had no email or anything from them. I wrote to them and they said that the payment was cancelled, please note the word CANCELLED.

I then phoned Neteller Security and spoke with them. They said it was not cancelled but was a Authorised Withdrawal that had come through with my Secure ID as well. They gave me a transaction number and everything about the transaction.

They have now asked me for ID. This is not the issue as it is no problem.

I am grossly concerend about this for a number of reasons.

The casino seem to feel they can charge my Neteller without my authorisation. If it was a credit card, I would demand a charge back, but apparrently Neteller do not.

The casino have stored my secure ID. This also causes concern regarding rogue members of staff/rogue casinos.

I look forward all comments

 

[elscrabinda]

Very worrying indeed. In your situation I'd send them a very angry email detailing why this is completely unacceptable and explaining that you will shortly be reporting them to whoever their regulator is.

You have no choice of course but to comply with their ID request and presumably you will get your money but the idea that casinos are able to do this scares me.

 

[Vesuvio]

I had the same thing happen at a reputable on-line casino recently. They'd accidentally paid me twice, so I couldn't have too many objections to them claiming it back (!), but I was suprised that they took money from my account without asking or informing me. I suspect they don't take Neteller transactions as seriously as they would transactions that might get them into trouble with banks or credit card companies.

With all the rogue operators out there it's probably best not to keep too much money in Neteller.

 

[Tdoggy]

Very Bad

I have heard horror stories about this happening to people. Money in neteller is not as safe as you may think. If casinos have your account info which they will if you make a deposit with them they can just take out money from your neteller account. This seems very unfair. Once again casinos having to much power comes into play.

 

[elscrabinda]

Cancelling a payment is one thing although its only polite to tell the person that ou're doing it. The case that Haviton describes is much more dangerous. I've played at some crappy casinos and to think that they are able to charge my neteller whenever they like is more than a bit scary

 

[Ivy29]

Neteller--yikes!

I totally believe this could happen. They can just pretend like its a normal transaction to "fix" their mistakes.

Money never lays around my Neteller account long enough to be in danger because it either gets deposited somewhere or stuck in the ATM card account so I can run down to the ATM and pull it out of there. There is a fee to transfer it to your ATM card and fees of course to yank the money out at the ATM machine, but still, pretty good system. I would think it would be impossible for them to get into the money in your ATM card account. Also, if you decide you want some of it back, its free to transfer it back into your regular Neteller account part. I think they start socking you with fees after 30 days of inactivity, too, but that's never been an issue for me (give me the cash please!).

 

[universexf6]

Same thing happened to me too at a Casino. In my case, an operator
of the casino took the money from my Neteller account in his operational
confusion and I had to prove it happened witnout my authorization to the casino until I received the righteful withdrawal back to me. In this case, Neteller maintains as being the complete outsider, and I really don't like it.

 

[Bruce]

At this time, to ensure I receive unbiased comments, I will not nake the casino but this happened to me over the week.

At the weekend, I opened a casino account. Deposited via Neteller and received my bonus.

I withdrew a profit of 800. 3 days later, they paid me 200 (Dep) and 800.

The next day, and this is my gripe, they, without my consent, withdrew the 800 back from my neteller account. I was away until the weekend and had no email or anything from them. I wrote to them and they said that the payment was cancelled, please note the word CANCELLED.

I then phoned Neteller Security and spoke with them. They said it was not cancelled but was a Authorised Withdrawal that had come through with my Secure ID as well. They gave me a transaction number and everything about the transaction.

They have now asked me for ID. This is not the issue as it is no problem.

I am grossly concerend about this for a number of reasons.

The casino seem to feel they can charge my Neteller without my authorisation. If it was a credit card, I would demand a charge back, but apparrently Neteller do not.

The casino have stored my secure ID. This also causes concern regarding rogue members of staff/rogue casinos.

I look forward all comments

Please share with us who is the casino in question...

 

[Haviton]

Bruce. I hope you understand why at this stage I do not want to disclose the name. I am looking for unbiased opinion that wasnt influenced by the casinos name like, Ive played there and never had a problem or yes, I blew 500 in no time their crap.

I will post it later in the week though as I am working away until Friday though

 

[GrandMaster]

It would be nice if someone from Neteller explained exactly what sort of a protocol is used to make a Neteller deposit at a casino. The way it ought to work, but clearly does not, is that all the necessary information is encrypted locally and sent to Neteller, where it is decrypted, verified and the money tranferred to the casino. The casino should not have access to any confidential information. Webdollar used by most Boss Media casinos opens up a new browser window with Neteller userid and secure ID in the URL, so anyone else using the computer could find it in the URL history. By reloading the page you can also make another deposit.

 

[Dirk Diggler]

I've noticed all RTG casinos store both your Neteller account ID and your Secure ID. If you store it as your preffered method you never need to input the details again - this is very dangerous IMO as it not only shows that they have all the info they need to deposit at any time, but if someone manages to access your account they can easily deposit via Neteller without needing any info.

BTW Haviton - have you complained to Neteller about this? I know the casino hasn't exactly stolen the money but still they should be made aware you never sanctioned the transaction.

 

[BCarlisle]

Yeah Haviton you should definitely tell neteller that you have money taken from your account without your intent. This thread certainly brings to light how unsecure neteller really is.

 

[Haviton]

Dirk
To be honest with you, in my opinion, they have stolen the money from me. It was in my account one day, they then fraudulently took it back from my acount by falsly giving Neteller the impression that I had OK'd the deal.

I have informed Neteller. I have informed them that I will pursue this via legal channels whether civil or criminal as it is relly p*ssing me off

 

[Tdoggy]

don't blame you

If I signed in my neteller account and some casino took my money I'd be heated also. Can't blame you for following this up. Probably would also. First time I ever heard a horror story about this I went into neteller and withdrew a lot of my money in there. Only keep a few hundred at a time in there these days. You never know. Can't believe these casinos are getting away with this.

 

[Aindreas_Daoc]

I really can't see any instance where anyone is allowed to use your Neteller without your consent.

This is indeed stealing. What is to prevent a shady operator to just empty your Neteller account?

One would think Neteller has some precautions or legal avenues for this, especially considering their supposed to be a regulated and publicly listed company. This is unacceptable and really shakes my confidence in Neteller.

 

[Stanford]

You need to tell

I hope one of the watchdogs can get some Neteller comment. This is very distressing. I would think a signed fraud affadavit would suffice to have them reverse the entry.

The casino needs to be named. This is one of those instances when all the facts should come out in the forum prior to submitting to the watchdogs. Players need to know who is doing this and if it is repeated by the same casino, it substantiates the fraud. That can't happen without information sharing.

Name the casino, alert Neteller to this thread and the Pitch a Bitch.

imho,
Stanford

 

[jetset]

Haviton, forgive me for coming into this discussion rather late, but have you actually contacted the casino concerned and spoken to someone in charge about this?

It is not unknown for emails to go astray, and it would in any case be useful to know what the casino's attitude is, whether there is any explanation for this on the face of it alarming occurrence and what they are doing about it?

 

[MrWolf]

It's outrageous that a casino can access a person's Neteller account and make an unauthorised withdrawal. I'll echo others' comments about concern over security, and that it's not worth keeping a large Neteller balance.

I am curious though Haviton the reason the casino's giving for voiding your winnings and, in my opinion, illegally accessing your Neteller account?

 

[Flavio4321]

Bryan, Jetset , or anybody whith contacts on neteller, I am interested in netellers opinion about this. You should contact and point them to this thread.

Another interesting question, what about instacash? do casinos have acces to your bank accounts too???

Flavio.

 

[paul02085]

This really worries me. Neteller better have a good explaination for this or they are gonna lose a lot of business. They need to come here and address this issue right away.

 

[Vesuvio]

It's outrageous that a casino can access a person's Neteller account and make an unauthorised withdrawal. I'll echo others' comments about concern over security, and that it's not worth keeping a large Neteller balance.

As far as I understand it the casino can't access anyone's Neteller account - they also need your password. What they do have is the account number and secure code so they can make debits from your account. There should be some system in place so that at the very least they have to inform a player before withdrawing money from his account. Ideally, though, the casino wouldn't have the secure code stored on their system - it'd be interesting to see what Neteller think about this.

 

[jetset]

Are you here, Haviton? I would be very interested in all sides of this story, which raises some important and very serious points.

Have you contacted the casino management and what did they have to say?

 

[chalupa]

After playing at a certain casino which I felt was shady -- no names mentioned (Slotland, cough, cough) , I was paranoid that the casino might in the future decide to help themselves to some of my money, particularly if I contested some credit card charges due to what I felt was fraudulent behavior on their part.

So I contacted Neteller about just this issue. Neteller assured me that it was "impossible" for a casino to make an unauthorized withdrawal from my account.

When I asked how it could be impossible if they had my secure ID, they ignored the question and issued me a new secure ID.

In other words... anyone with your Neteller account number and secure ID (which is potentially any casino you ever deposited at) could bleed your Neteller account dry.

Now, presumably, Neteller has SOME sort of appeals process so you would hopefully eventually get your money back, but at a minimum it would be a huge hassle.

So I think changing your secure ID now and then is a sensible precaution, particularly if you have less-than-fond memories of an experience at a casino where you've used Neteller.

If I were Haviton, I'd change my secure ID immediately.

 

[Tdoggy]

Thank You

I think I will go change my secure idea right now. Been Years since I have done that. Thanks for the important info. Scary how any casino with your info can just take as they please from your neteller account.

 

[mucullus]

It is amazing, on the client's side neteller has pretty paranoid security measures, but their policy with merchants seems to be quite laissez-faire.

 

[universexf6]

I think I will go change my secure idea right now. Been Years since I have done that. Thanks for the important info. Scary how any casino with your info can just take as they please from your neteller account.

Casinos can pay from your account in case they are short of money

 

[Tdoggy]

right

Yeah steal from some poor souls neteller account to pay another customer that they owe! Would it surprise me. Probably not!

 

[Vambo]

Haviton

A casino blatently stealing money from your net acc needs to be reported to the authorities where ever they hold thier licence in the hope that criminal charges can be brought(unlikely though as these places are as crooked as some casinos)
For my thoughts on requesting ID see Flus bellerock thread

And they need to be named so we can all avoid them

An alternative to neteller may need to be found if they dont guarantee your 800 as it was fraudulently taken from your account (just the sort of thing casinos claim that asking for ID is supposed to prevent)

 

[lanidar]

I inquired with Neteller regarding this thread.
This is what was emailed to me with the authority to make this post....

NETeller has set up a rule with it's merchants that an account holders name must match on both sides in order to allow a cash out or deposit to and or from a merchant to NETeller / NETeller to merchant. The transaction was sent from this merchant to what seemed to be another NETeller account (the player described the situation later like this: he had set up a player account(casino side)with his friends name and a NETeller account with his own name) and when the casino in question saw the error in the user's names not matching, the transaction was reversed. This casino went out of it's way to reverse what looked to be a fraudulent withdrawal to someone else's NETeller account (as the names didn't match on both sides) This is all just a big miscommunication and the casino and NETeller were trying to protect a player against a potential fraudulent withdrawal.

NETeller is currently working with the client and the merchant to correct this issue. The funds are still available to the client. He breached the merchant's and NETellers security rules and this is why there is a problem.

 

[Tdoggy]

Good job

Way to go getting to the bottom of this issue. Sounds like a big mix up and I'm glad the casino and Neteller are working it out with the player. Makes me feel a little bit safer now with my own neteller account

 

[lanidar]

Makes me feel a little bit safer now with my own neteller account

That was my intention...thank you. :notworthy

 

[Macgyver]

The transaction was sent from this merchant to what seemed to be another NETeller account (the player described the situation later like this: he had set up a player account(casino side)with his friends name and a NETeller account with his own name) and when the casino in question saw the error in the user's names not matching, the transaction was reversed.

Sounds like someone was bonus hunting and told a friend he/she could make them some easy money.

"Hey, let me open up an account at the casino in your name since I already used my own. I can get free money again from the casino and I'll give you a cut."

That may not be the answer, but I'd definitely like to hear why Haviton set up a player account for his friend, but used his own NETeller account.

 

[Tdoggy]

Is He???

Is He what online casinos would call a Bonus Abuser????? Yeah using your neteller account for a friends deposit is not good at all.

 

[caruso]

If this was attempted fraud, no problem. I believe account names must match at both sides for transactions to be legitimate.

 

[jetset]

Neteller has given this thread their attention following a request from us for an editorial comment on this situation. This is their response:

QUOTE

NETeller has set up a rule with it's merchants that an account holders name must match on both sides in order to allow a cash out or deposit to and or from a merchant to NETeller / NETeller to merchant.

The transaction was sent from this merchant to what seemed to be another NETeller account.

The player described the situation later like this: he had set up a player account(casino side)with his friend's name and a NETeller account with his own name. When the casino in question saw the error in the user's names missmatching, the transaction was reversed.

This casino went out of it's way to reverse what looked to be a fraudulent withdrawal to someone else's NETeller account(as the names didn't match on both sides) The casino and NETeller were trying to protect a player against a potential fraudulent withdrawal.

NETeller is currently working with the client and the merchant to correct this issue. The funds are still available to the client. He breached the merchant's and NETellers security rules and this is why there is a problem.

 

[Dirk Diggler]

Well thanks Haviton for getting us all worried about Neteller's security when it was in fact just you trying to fraud a casino.

Oh yeah, and thanks for wasting everyone's time who bothered to input to the debate

 

[Vambo]

I would like to enquire as to how Neteller knew who was being asked about as the only info I can find here is the name Haviton and the casino was not named

Also lets not start shouting abuser untill he has had a chance to reply because I find it hard to believe that anybody would be stupid enough to do what he is being accused of and then come on here and complain about it

 

[Dirk Diggler]

This was what Jetset just quoted Neteller as saying:

The player described the situation later like this: he had set up a player account(casino side) with his friend's name and a NETeller account with his own name. When the casino in question saw the error in the user's names missmatching, the transaction was reversed.

So unless Neteller are lying then Haviton himself informed them of it.

If I have jumped to conclusions that aren't correct then I'll be the first to apologise, but I doubt that I have TBH.

 

[wobble33]

That was my intention...thank you. :notworthy

you are the MASTER sir.........well done............ :notworthy

 

[paul02085]

Haviton, what is your response to this?

 

[KasinoKing]

I don't think we'll be hearing from him again.

Looks like he was trying to Hav-us-on as well as Hav-it-on!

Who made the comment about 'not stupid enough..'?
You have a lot to learn, my son!

 

[santo]

To be fair he did say he was away on business til Friday earlier in the thread.

 

[jetset]

We've just received some interesting anonymous information on this matter, which although now erased has apparently appeared rather boastfully on other message boards and has been noted.

I will not post unsubstantiated material from an anonymous source, but I urge whoever sent this to us (who is clearly reading this board) to post his or her information as a first hand and quite damning account.

 

[Vesuvio]

We've just received some interesting anonymous information on this matter...

Out of curiosity, who's "we" in this case? I'd question the value of posting info aimed at discrediting any message board poster - it's hard to see how it can benefit anyone (except perhaps satisfying someone holding a grudge).

From this thread it doesn't look as though Haviton, Neteller or the casino are being entirely up front with the truth. Assuming he made a deposit via Neteller and then withdrew to the same account it's hard to see this as a case of the two companies trying to save a player from fraud - it's simply a case of spotting a potential breach in terms and conditions (a different name) that might allow the casino to hold onto funds.

I don't think Neteller have addressed the underlying issue here (regardless of an individual case). Casinos clearly store the secure code and can initiate Neteller debits from someone's account without informing the player. I had this happen when I'd been mistakenly paid twice - of course I was perfectly willing to see the money returned to the casino, but the very least I think they should be obliged to do is e-mail the player before initiating a withdrawal.

 

[Haviton]

QUOTE

NETeller has set up a rule with it's merchants that an account holders name must match on both sides in order to allow a cash out or deposit to and or from a merchant to NETeller / NETeller to merchant.

The transaction was sent from this merchant to what seemed to be another NETeller account.

The player described the situation later like this: he had set up a player account(casino side)with his friend's name and a NETeller account with his own name. When the casino in question saw the error in the user's names missmatching, the transaction was reversed.

This casino went out of it's way to reverse what looked to be a fraudulent withdrawal to someone else's NETeller account(as the names didn't match on both sides) The casino and NETeller were trying to protect a player against a potential fraudulent withdrawal.

NETeller is currently working with the client and the merchant to correct this issue. The funds are still available to the client. He breached the merchant's and NETellers security rules and this is why there is a problem.
__________________


Hi All, as I said, I was awat until Friday but Because Sheffield Wednesday are playing tonight, I have come home early

Some points form what Neteller have said first.


NETeller has set up a rule with it's merchants that an account holders name must match on both sides in order to allow a cash out or deposit to and or from a merchant to NETeller / NETeller to merchant.
Why did the deposit go through no problem

The player described the situation later like this: he had set up a player account(casino side)with his friend's name and a NETeller account with his own name. When the casino in question saw the error in the user's names missmatching, the transaction was reversed.

That is absolute lie and I would like to know who it is at Neteller who said this. This is implying that I have been fraudulently claiming Bonuses which is a Lie. PLEASE whoever it is who has the contact, ask them for proof of this as all I have ever done is email Neteller about this, only once speaking to them when I noticed the withdrawal

What the Neteller are conveniently ommiting from there reply is that the initioal deposit was made using the same Neteller account.

Now, this is EXACTLY what happened and I have not deviated from any of this

I owe my brother in law just over 700 for a window he fitted. We were talking over the weekend and I told him about the casino bonuses. NO DENIAL OF THIS WHAT SO EVER. He said basically that he did not trust them and they would run off with his money etc etc. I said they are bad ones but gave him a few honest ones and said "Look, if you want, use my Neteller account for the money I owe you. If you win, it will be paid back to me and I will pay you from there."

He opened an account with King Neptunes and deposited using MY NETELLER account. He then played out and some how, LUCKY BST, he got to just over 1000. H etold me to expect this and to be honest, I thought he was pulling my leg.

Any way, I checked I think on Friday and saw that a pay back to my account for 200 and 803 had been made by Trident E Commerce and then the Next day, 803 had been taken back out.

I immediately phone Neteller who told me, and I recorded the conversation as I used the phone I use to place bets, and I was told that teh casino had requested the money back, as a normal transaction and they had quoted MY Secure ID to do this. There was no mention of different names, automatically reversed or anything. I was told by Neteller security they had requested it back using my Secure ID to do it.


When my Brother In Law made the withdrawal, it asked him the name of the Neteller account, he put my name. He was asked for the email address of the Neteller account, he put in the correct one. At no point did he attemt to gain any advantage. IN FACT, i have talked about this since and he was playing blackjack hands a 60 a time, not exactly a BONUS ABUSERS MO.

My brother in law has been in touch with what he called "A Brilliant Bloke" at Trident called Kobis I think, and he asked him for me to provide a scan of my passport, Credit Card and a bill which I did and for him to do the same which he did.

They have actually paid the money back to Neteller again today BUT 1 HOUR TOOK IT BACK AGAIN so dont know what happened their.

Some points concern me here though. The lie from the Neteller rep, the flipant accusations by other forum posters that I have had run ins with (VERY CHEAP) and is their no Data Protection with Neteller discussing an ongoing security issue.

But then again, if you make up a story to suit your needs, whos to argue

 

[spearmaster]

The "brilliant bloke" is Kobus, the CFO. If he determines you are entitled to be paid, you will be paid, plain and simple.

However, the way you went about this is wrong - your Neteller account is for your own personal use only - this is in the Neteller terms and conditions as well.

Kobus obviously took the logical view - that you were a bonus hunter trying to run more than one account - can you blame him for that?

As for the money going in and out of the account, I would assume there is some problem with the Neteller procedure for handling this sort of situation - I doubt that it has anything to do with the casino at all, and I doubt that Neteller are trying to screw you.

Just politely ask what's happening, and if all is as it appears at present, the money will be in your account to stay.

 

[scrollock]

Well thanks Haviton for getting us all worried about Neteller's security when it was in fact just you trying to fraud a casino.

i have 3 words, pot, kettle & black

 

[caruso]

NETeller has set up a rule with it's merchants that an account holders name must match on both sides in order to allow a cash out or deposit to and or from a merchant to NETeller / NETeller to merchant...
Why did the deposit go through no problem...?

Because the security check happens afterwards, not before. That's not unreasonable: if you're legit, you have nothing to fear; if you're trying it on, you'll have noone but yourself to blame.

The player described the situation later like this: he had set up a player account(casino side)with his friend's name and a NETeller account with his own name. When the casino in question saw the error in the user's names missmatching, the transaction was reversed.
That is absolute lie and I would like to know who it is at Neteller who said this.

How? The player account was in the bro in law's name, the NT account was in your name. I agree that it's made to look as if the two accounts were set up moreorless together, implying dodgy-doings, but the facts remain as stated by NT.

Kobus obviously took the logical view - that you were a bonus hunter trying to run more than one account - can you blame him for that?

It's not up to Kobus to take an opinion on his "bonus hunter" tendencies. Are the transactions legit, bonus behaviour aside? If yes, he's paid. If no...etc etc. That is the only question.

He breached the merchant's and NETellers security rules and this is why there is a problem.

Then he shouldn't be paid, which is also my opinion on the matter. I'll take a guess he probably WILL be paid, however, since the bro in law story is halfway convincing and Trident will probably consider paying to be the lesser of two evils. The pure facts of the matter say "no pay", however.

 

[spearmaster]

It's not up to Kobus to take an opinion on his "bonus hunter" tendencies. Are the transactions legit, bonus behaviour aside? If yes, he's paid. If no...etc etc. That is the only question.

No one said anything about tendencies. Register more than one account that is funded by the same Neteller account and you automatically get labeled "hunter" even if the correct word is "abuser".

 

[Haviton]

Spearmaster

My Neteller account has never been used with casinos, apart from ones that have sportsbooks.