UK Conservative Party Leadership Election

[pinnit2014]

It probably doesn't matter because according to a Google X Chief, by 2028/29 we're all screwed because of Artificial Intelligence.

Seemingly AI is learning from the worst of humanity (Labour voters) and needs the best of humanity (Tory voters) and as such, it's code of ethics is screwed

Either way, i reckon i could take the T-1000

Who's telling Mick Lynch?

 

[mack341]

Mack's embraced the Femme.

Well it was more the battleaxes and busybodies aspect the WI could bring to the table

 

[goatwack]

 

[pinnit2014]

Hey, if a T Model wants to put a Greggs sausage roll in my mouth (steady on), maybe even a chicken bake, then i'm quite happy to oil them up (steady on again) in return for betraying humanity.

 

[ChopleyIOM]

Oh seriously poor nurses using food banks. What about the millions of workers on minimum wage jobs actually bursting their arses every day just to try and survive many doing much more physically and mental challenges than the nurses.

Lets get it right. The NHS staff are no where near as poor as portrayed in the media. And if they are needing foodbanks then just think how bad of minimum wage workers are. You know those workers that have to go to work no matter how ill they are or all they would get would be SSP and no way to survive.

Fact is NHS staff get better benefits than most. 6 months full sick pay followed by 6 months half pay. 6 weeks holiday a year plus public holidays. A wage better than many and also time plus 40% for any unsociable hours which is classed as anything between 8pm and 6am plus a Saturday and nearly double time for every Sunday, Add that to enhanced pay plus a day in lieu if working a public holiday.

Yeah poor sods really are poorly paid, Sorry but to me many in NHS actually get paid to much for what they do. And it is a fact. Take my boy who is autistic. He has a job in NHS just working 5 hours a day on a Saturday and Sunday on lowest pay band. His hourly rate is about £15 an hour for his Saturday and nearly £20 an hour for the Sunday doing an unskilled job and thats the lowest pay they pay.

So without overtime and after deductions he clears nearly £700 a month for working 10 hours a week and also gets all the benefits like more holidays than most and if he phones in sick any weekend still gets full pay. Yeah poor NHS staff needing foodbanks. No wonder NHS is in a mess when even a receptionist, cleaner , porter etc. get £15 plus an hour on a Saturday and £20 an hour on a Sunday. think many workers doing harder jobs could only dream of wages like that.

This isn't specifically a reply to you paul7388, but also those who left similar comments, because I'm slightly confused as to what's being advocated for here, or what you'd like to see happen?

The fact that the minimum wage is so derisorily low, and so many of the jobs come with so few rights (including of course those truly pernicious zero hour contracts), is an absolute disgrace (and indeed something New Labour allowed to shamefully proliferate on their watch), but the answer isn't to get cross with other working class people who are still in roles that do have those protections.

Leaving aside the oft-repeated falsehood that your average train driver is on nearly £100K (they're just not, although they are decently paid), surely a working class person being able to earn a good wage in a steady job thanks to being a member of a strong trade union is a positive thing?

What's our end state here, what are we trying to achieve?

That working class person earns more than me - PAY THEM LESS!
That working class person gets paid holidays and I don't - TAKE THE PAID HOLIDAYS OFF THEM!
That working class person gets sick pay, I don't get sick pay - TAKE THE SICK PAY OFF THEM!
That working class person is entitled to maternity/paternity leave, I don't get that - TAKE IT OFF THEM!
That working class person has a decent occupational pension and I don't - NO PENSION FOR THEM!

It's just a race to the bottom, get the proles fighting like cats in a sack and the rich make out like bandits whilst we're all busy arguing with each other. The UK government has printed six hundred billion quid since Covid started and siphoned it into the pockets of the rich, but it's NHS workers earning a modestly half-decent wage we're supposed to be pointing the finger at?

The best trick the Tories and their pals ever pulled was convincing working class people that other working class people are their enemies, and that all working class people are on the cusp of being rich so don't vote Labour because they'll tax you more when you're rich!

£15 per hour should be the UK minimum wage, that should be the target here, not suggesting that someone earning £15 per hour to work on a Saturday is somehow doing enviously well.

 

[paul7388]

This isn't specifically a reply to you paul7388, but also those who left similar comments, because I'm slightly confused as to what's being advocated for here, or what you'd like to see happen?

The fact that the minimum wage is so derisorily low, and so many of the jobs come with so few rights (including of course those truly pernicious zero hour contracts), is an absolute disgrace (and indeed something New Labour allowed to shamefully proliferate on their watch), but the answer isn't to get cross with other working class people who are still in roles that do have those protections.

Leaving aside the oft-repeated falsehood that your average train driver is on nearly £100K (they're just not, although they are decently paid), surely a working class person being able to earn a good wage in a steady job thanks to being a member of a strong trade union is a positive thing?

What's our end state here, what are we trying to achieve?

That working class person earns more than me - PAY THEM LESS!
That working class person gets paid holidays and I don't - TAKE THE PAID HOLIDAYS OFF THEM!
That working class person gets sick pay, I don't get sick pay - TAKE THE SICK PAY OFF THEM!
That working class person is entitled to maternity/paternity leave, I don't get that - TAKE IT OFF THEM!
That working class person has a decent occupational pension and I don't - NO PENSION FOR THEM!

It's just a race to the bottom, get the proles fighting like cats in a sack and the rich make out like bandits whilst we're all busy arguing with each other. The UK government has printed six hundred billion quid since Covid started and siphoned it into the pockets of the rich, but it's NHS workers earning a modestly half-decent wage we're supposed to be pointing the finger at?

The best trick the Tories and their pals ever pulled was convincing working class people that other working class people are their enemies, and that all working class people are on the cusp of being rich so don't vote Labour because they'll tax you more when you're rich!

£15 per hour should be the UK minimum wage, that should be the target here, not suggesting that someone earning £15 per hour to work on a Saturday is somehow doing enviously well.

My point was simple. Yes ideally everyone should be paid better and no one should be working all the hours going and still struggling to survive.

My point is simply that its always how bad off the NHS staff are and how they struggle to survive. When compared to many they have a much better salary and benefits. And no they should not lose what they get but they have a cheek to complain non stop about how bad off they are.
And as for the £15 you mentioned that only applies to the very minimum pay scale majority get far more. And tell me how many unskilled jobs these days that require a lot harder work get anywhere near a wage like that. Jobs that when you feel rough you can go what the hell i will just stay off for 2 weeks as i will get full pay anyway.

Most of the NHS waiting times these days are not because NHS has too few staff. More because the sickness and abscence levels are through the roof. Maybe due to covid, flu etc. but there was a time when if someone had a slight cold they would go to work not take a month of sick like happens now, So even if NHS suddenly doubled their staff as long as sickness levels stay the same the NHS will be overwhelmed.

 

[TheAddict]

They might moan more because they get abused to death i regards to being overworked. sometimes they don't get a chance to put their feet up due to the nature of the job, missing breaks, and new, ridiculously over paid staff from overseas being effing uselessfor the first fw months. I know this from the mother who done it for 20 years. Often missing her breaks ona 12 hour shift due to the workload, even if she is over 60.

 

[paul7388]

They might moan more because they get abused to death i regards to being overworked. sometimes they don't get a chance to put their feet up due to the nature of the job, missing breaks, and new, ridiculously over paid staff from overseas being effing uselessfor the first fw months. I know this from the mother who done it for 20 years. Often missing her breaks ona 12 hour shift due to the workload, even if she is over 60.

Depends on what you class as overworked. Yes some NHS staff are overworked. Many are not. Go for a hospital appointment and see how many nurses are just actually standing about. Nurses that could be used in wards where they are needed. Try visiting a patient in hospital and see an elderly woman buzzing away with no nurse coming. Not because they are short staffed more because there is about 4 standing at the reception bit talking away to each other,

And yes my partner,son , several friends and others i know work for NHS in various roles. And main reason is because it pays better than most and the benefits they get, And not one would say they are overworked,

Which also brings me to the point. IF a nurse is working so many hours overtime each week and overworked how can they say they are struggling to pay bills. They would be earning a pretty decent salary each month.

 

[TheAddict]

Rings a bell. Kept hearing abot the over paid and under trained (foreign) workers literally creating more work than removing it, and the local staff idling about when possible. Pretty much in line with the story I got told twice a month for the past decade.

 

[goatwack]

Looks like the train drivers' pay negotiations are back on track -

and let's face it, they've been dragging on far too long. It figures, that they'd ask for close to 20%, Government says 8%, but chances are it'll stick nearer 10- something, as has been predicted.

Hopefully they'll reach an amicable outcome, I'd wager no more than a coupler weeks ?

 

[dunover]

Seems the UK is one of among many countries with a state healthcare crisis:

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Same as all nations who are hell bent on massively increasing their population while not having the funds or means to provide the infrastructure.

 

[ChopleyIOM]

As for Starmer fumbling the answer to can a woman have a penis, I absolutely couldn't give less of a shit, it's a total non-issue for me, and the polling on this shows most of the public don't really care either. Grant Shapps gave the best answer to this out of all the Tory leadership candidates.

Quite the eye-opener.

Barrymore asks the entire audience if any of them have a problem with it and they're all just like, 'Nope'. They're curious, but not in a cruel way, and just ultimately aren’t that bothered.

Although admittedly you wouldn't be accepting an invite to go for a swim with him after the show.

 

[mack341]

Quite the eye-opener.

Barrymore asks the entire audience if any of them have a problem with it and they're all just like, 'Nope'. They're curious, but not in a cruel way, and just ultimately aren’t that bothered.

Although admittedly you wouldn't be accepting an invite to go for a swim with him after the show.

Yes quite the eye opener from about 20 years ago!

Things have changed a bit since then, even I didn't bat an eyelid over danny la rue or hinge and bracket in the 80s [probably not too distant in time from that barrymore show]

Starmer is displaying a bit more sense now, saying 16 is too young to make a decision on changing your gender legally; his party is chock-full of wokeists with no sense or idea of priority for a govt so that is quite a 'right wing' [aka the normal view even in labour 30 years ago] position to take in the circumstances.

 

[TheAddict]

Speaking of lol, If what I read was correct, the following dude knows how to play the game. Get accused of not being liberal enough while teaching? Fuck it, just become this thing! lol

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[mack341]

Quite a good explanation, and hard to argue against.

 

[Mr_Slot5]

Quite a good explanation, and hard to argue against.

It's not quite as clear cut as that though is it. Socialism isn't the same as wealth redistribution.

In order for an economic system to work there has to be a balance. On a sliding scale there will always be haves, have nots and people in between. The issue arises when you have either too many haves or too many have nots. If too much of the total wealth is in the possession of too few then there becomes an imbalance. Too many people become reliant on credit or simply do not have purchasing power full stop. This then feeds through and the economy starts to weaken, eventually leading to crisis as debt is recalled and defaulted upon. This is exacerbated by excessive QE which essentially renders currency weaker and weaker and fuels inflation.

What do you think is more sustainable and more beneficial to the 'system'. 1 person with 100 billion or 100 people with 1 billion? 100 people are ultimately going to filter that total sum of 100 billion (through things like inheritance) to more beneficiaries than the 1 person. This is the crux as to why redistribution is pivotal to a properly functioning capitalist economy.

Something that has had a big effect over the last 30 years or so is the dominating of the market. Think of big national and multinational companies (you could use the example of supermarkets in the UK) who have swatted away more local business. Where 40 years ago you might see a higher proliferation of corner shop usage, nowadays people would rather drive to a supermarket or shop somewhere that has a fleet of home delivery vans. This leads to less business diversity and ultimately less diversity in where the money is going to. Less competition and consumer options= more money going to fewer recipients. That's just one example.

People use the term socialism far too loosely.

 

[interlog]

Something that has had a big effect over the last 30 years or so is the dominating of the market. Think of big national and multinational companies (you could use the example of supermarkets in the UK) who have swatted away more local business. Where 40 years ago you might see a higher proliferation of corner shop usage, nowadays people would rather drive to a supermarket or shop somewhere that has a fleet of home delivery vans. This leads to less business diversity and ultimately less diversity in where the money is going to. Less competition and consumer options= more money going to fewer recipients. That's just one example.

I would argue that since the introduction of the German "discounters" into the UK market, there has been more competition. The traditional "big 4" had and have to take measures to be more competitive in order not to lose market share. These German discounters are big privately owned Companies not listed on the share market and have so much wealth they are more wealthy than some of the traditional "big 4", yet they are seen as the knights in armour in the UK in terms of offering value for money for customers.

 

[dunover]

I would argue that since the introduction of the German "discounters" into the UK market, there has been more competition. The traditional "big 4" had and have to take measures to be more competitive in order not to lose market share. These German discounters are big privately owned Companies not listed on the share market and have so much wealth they are more wealthy than some of the traditional "big 4", yet they are seen as the knights in armour in the UK in terms of offering value for money for customers.

LOL..they are German chains (LIDL/ALDI) and for a decade or so never understood (by their own admission) the UK retail market and the snobbery regarding 'cheap' brands. So in came a few UK supermarket experts who made two basic changes to their operation. Firstly, they sourced everything they could from UK manufacturers or suppliers and made a big fuss about how 'patriotic' their buyers are and they had equal or more UK-sourced food than the rest. This alleviated the association with being German. Secondly, they did many 'taste tests' which demonstrated their cheaper goods were in fact the same, in some cases superior to the established brands - at the same time they made sure to stock the 'big brands' alongside too so customers could get say Heinz beans and PG Tips tea etc. because they realised they had a reputation for not having customer favourites.

They also very cleverly packaged their equivalent goods, sailing VERY close to the wind where copyright is concerned, for example luxury Christmas offerings in gold/black packaging bearing a remarkable resemblance to M&S's range ahem! Their corn chips, chocolate rolls etc. bore very strong resemblance to premium branded packaging too - they did get caught out once when they introduced the famous 'caterpillar cake' which was a children's favourite invented by M&S IIRC and this was contested but they got away with it.

Their advertising then went very heavily into basket or trolley price comparisons with other supermarkets and the substantial savings the customer made, although this was first done by TESCO on TV with say £3.14 on a basket and £9.85 on a trolley full as opposed to the very big trolley savings of say £20-30 at LIDL/ALDI on eg. a £100 shop.

A third thing they did was the aisle in the middle every customer saw with the 'When it's gone, it's gone' higher-priced products like garden furniture sets, laptops, TV's that were very cheap and sold at very little margin. These proved very popular and increased revenues and became famous among shoppers and you now see the UK big 4 copying this to various degrees.

So once they understood the UK shopper was very different to the German one (where it's all unashamedly about price efficiency and availability) they became increasingly successful. Fifteen years ago they ran on skeleton staff so service was very slow, made little effort in shelf merchandising eg. leaving products in their supply boxes on shelves and very little signage of labelling around the place so did look a poor comparison to the big 4. Now they have similar appearance to rest and the low prices are bearing fruit for them as the so-called cost of living crisis has made shoppers lose inhibitions and their market share is increasing. You even hear of shoppers doing their big shop there and packing it away in Waitrose bags into their cars lol...

 

[ChopleyIOM]

Quite a good explanation, and hard to argue against.

Crikey, that's a lot of wrongness condensed into under two minutes, it's kind of hard to know where to start. I also had a look down Mark's timeline on Twitter and wasn't surprised to discover he's your standard issue vaccine-sceptic JUST ASKING QUESTIONS type.

Anyway, first off, what she's describing there, and trying to suggest is analogous to socialism, literally isn't socialism. This isn't hard, just type 'socialism' into Google, there's an accepted definition of it. There's nothing in the Socialist doctrine that says you can't have rich people in society, what it aims for is a more equal society (note NOT 'everyone is exactly the same'), and looks to achieve this through, for example, common ownership of the means of production.

(I take it everyone in the UK is super-content with the privatised energy companies at the moment, currently inflicting some of the highest energy prices in the entire world on the population of the UK, whilst syphoning their vast profits out of the country because it's all owned by foreign interests since being flogged off on the cheap - yay unfettered capitalism!)

Secondly, as Mr_Slot quite correctly identifies in his post, we need to have some form of reasonably fair wealth distribution for a society to function in a healthy fashion, this was actually what the 'Boomer' generation benefitted from very nicely, and who now seem increasingly determined to pull the ladder up behind them, having bought their houses for three times their salary on relatively modest incomes. Ask a young person earning £20K per year and currently paying the highest tax burden for seventy years how they feel about a 'starter' house costing £200K or more.

I just had a look on Rightmove.co.uk, two bedroom terraced houses in the area I grew up in, which to be clear, was and still is a shithole (deindustrialised North Manchester), listed as INVESTMENT OPPORTUNTIES (i.e. not actually fit to live in yet), seem to be starting at around £120K. For one that actually looks like it's ready to move into, we're at £150K, for a small two bedroom mid-terraced house in what is, quite frankly, a pretty rough area. (I've literally lost count of how many times my dad's house has been broken into, my granddad was burgled whilst he was in his house, and ended up getting the shit kicked out of him when he confronted the intruder - so yeah, it's not posh.)

The point is here that we're witnessing the beginning of the endgame of what happens when vast quantities of wealth are accumulated by those at the top, yes they spend some of it, but the majority of it they use to buy assets, including houses, which is why young people today don't even remotely believe they'll ever own their own house, unless they have money in the family to get them there, which then increasingly consolidates wealth in the hands of the few.

So despite what the woman says in the video to the backdrop of scary ominous music, the goal of the left isn't to drag everyone down to the bottom, it's to give those who are already at the bottom a bit of a leg up to something better, and one of the ways this can be achieved is by starting to tackle wealth inequality.

 

[dunover]

Crikey, that's a lot of wrongness condensed into under two minutes, it's kind of hard to know where to start. I also had a look down Mark's timeline on Twitter and wasn't surprised to discover he's your standard issue vaccine-sceptic JUST ASKING QUESTIONS type.
*****
So despite what the woman says in the video to the backdrop of scary ominous music, the goal of the left isn't to drag everyone down to the bottom, it's to give those who are already at the bottom a bit of a leg up to something better, and one of the ways this can be achieved is by starting to tackle wealth inequality.

Unfortunately, as history has demonstrated numerous times, that's exactly what socialism ultimately achieves.

 

[ChopleyIOM]

Unfortunately, as history has demonstrated numerous times, that's exactly what socialism ultimately achieves.

As opposed to what the Tories have done to the UK over the last thirteen years?

 

[TheAddict]

If I had a penny everytime I didn't burst out in laughter as I listened to a comm... (sorry, socialist ) try and explain how something wasn't actually real Socialism, without laughing at their stuttering as they try and explain how common ownership works in theory, I'd never have to deposit to play BOD at 1 line again.
Not aimed at you Choppers, your post just reinded me of another vid I saw last night of another person trying (and failing) to do so.

 

[TheAddict]

But as a post directly aimed at you, Choppers, after thinking about what you said regarding the person with the twitter account being another one of "those types" who say "only asking questions".
People often got shat onand shut down from the get go when simply trying to ask questions about the vaxeeeeeeeeeeeene.. *wheeeeez*....., so some now tend to point out that they're, well, just asking questions. (You'd understand the seething replies people got from all angles years ago if you was the one asking questions, hell, I'm sure you'd be able to at least acknowledge it happened, since you'd probably be one of the seethers shooting down any questions that people dared ask from the off, right?).

Funny how you go to the twatter feed of anyone you disagree with to check for for things they don't agree with just so you can stick some kind of fucking label on them if anything on their feed isn't in line with government approved talking points, thereby doing exactly what the government and pharma have been doing for the past few years in order to protect their gazillion dollar profiting, society poisioning, increasing in social control measures, scheme.


I'm sure you don't give much of a fuck, but it causes me to lose respect for someone when I see them use the line "He's one of them types .." as if it's some sort of automatic winning put down, seemingly used for no other reason than simply because someone doesn't agree with something the government told them that they should be agreeing with. Again, I'm sure you don't give much of a fuck, but IMO,It's pretty pathetic tbh, bruh

 

[ChopleyIOM]

But as a post directly aimed at you, Choppers, after thinking about what you said regarding the person with the twitter account being another one of "those types" who say "only asking questions".
People often got shat onand shut down from the get go when simply trying to ask questions about the vaxeeeeeeeeeeeene.. *wheeeeez*....., so some now tend to point out that they're, well, just asking questions. (You'd understand the seething replies people got from all angles years ago if you was the one asking questions, hell, I'm sure you'd be able to at least acknowledge it happened, since you'd probably be one of the seethers shooting down any questions that people dared ask from the off, right?).

Funny how you go to the twatter feed of anyone you disagree with to check for for things they don't agree with just so you can stick some kind of fucking label on them if anything on their feed isn't in line with government approved talking points, thereby doing exactly what the government and pharma have been doing for the past few years in order to protect their gazillion dollar profiting, society poisioning, increasing in social control measures, scheme.


I'm sure you don't give much of a fuck, but it causes me to lose respect for someone when I see them use the line "He's one of them types .." as if it's some sort of automatic winning put down, seemingly used for no other reason than simply because someone doesn't agree with something the government told them that they should be agreeing with. Again, I'm sure you don't give much of a fuck, but IMO,It's pretty pathetic tbh, bruh

Well having first watched the awful video, I was curious enough to see who'd been promoting it. (context is important!), so I clicked on his name and before I even started scrolling down his timeline, had a very clear idea in my head as to what I was going to find. (He also really seems to like the video, and has posted it more than once.) So I was thinking anti-migrant rhetoric (check), vaccine nonsense (check), right wing wingnuts (check, Katie Hopkins videos, so he really came out swinging there!), something about woke and/or wokery (check), getting cross about LGBTQ stuff (check) and so on - if I was playing bingo I'd have got a full house.

So yeah, I made an assumption based on the initial information presented to me, and the assumption turned out to be entirely correct, because the Venn diagrams of this stuff are pretty well established by this point.

 

[dunover]

As opposed to what the Tories have done to the UK over the last thirteen years?

Some people have got poorer, as happens cyclically and temporarly in any capitalist or non-command western economy. But the overall graph, over time, results in more for everyone which is why the capitalist free-market economies are the richest and have the best standard of living on the Earth.

Socialism makes everyone poorer over time. Even the Chinese got that concept eventually.


Now, even an obtuse, deliberately blind commentator like yourself knows that, surely?

I mean, you do know the real reason why most of the people from outside try and flood into the USA, Europe etc. don't you? D'oh.

 

[goatwack]

I'm familiar with that Socialism clip based off the missus being subscribed to that paranormal/ spooky ghosts channel, of which I hear the most inane ramblings about 'Look how this footage shows this chair moving - ghost or fake?', among many other things.

It's fantastical nonsense, and they have a real penchant for repeating the phrases 'creepy', 'creepy-ass' and 'what do you think?', and their paranormal stories about as believable as Labour's vision for the UK!

So yes, I got early access to that Socialism clip, and whilst just an opinion, there is some truth in it, and so I laughed at it.

Much as I laughed at the clip of that woman's monologue about the Tories being 'See you next Tuesdays', because there was truth in that too!

Socialism sounds great in theory but it has never provably worked or been sustainable, and at its core it's a noble concept. Just that in reality, in life there'll always be the 'haves' and the 'have nots', and the 'haves' tend to leave the others trailing in their wake. You also need people to strive and compete to better themselves, this is pretty much on par with nature itself.

The notion that everyone gets the same, not too little, but not too much, and you'll be reasonably content is an unworkable pipe-dream, even more so in this day and age where everybody wants something for nothing.

But as for who 'shared' and celebrated that video, it's of no consequence to me, I tend to judge it on its own merit. But there you go

 

[ChopleyIOM]

I'm familiar with that Socialism clip based off the missus being subscribed to that paranormal/ spooky ghosts channel, of which I hear the most inane ramblings about 'Look how this footage shows this chair moving - ghost or fake?', among many other things.

It's fantastical nonsense, and they have a real penchant for repeating the phrases 'creepy', 'creepy-ass' and 'what do you think?', and their paranormal stories about as believable as Labour's vision for the UK!

So yes, I got early access to that Socialism clip, and whilst just an opinion, there is some truth in it, and so I laughed at it.

Much as I laughed at the clip of that woman's monologue about the Tories being 'See you next Tuesdays', because there was truth in that too!

Socialism sounds great in theory but it has never provably worked or been sustainable, and at its core it's a noble concept. Just that in reality, in life there'll always be the 'haves' and the 'have nots', and the 'haves' tend to leave the others trailing in their wake. You also need people to strive and compete to better themselves, this is pretty much on par with nature itself.

The notion that everyone gets the same, not too little, but not too much, and you'll be reasonably content is an unworkable pipe-dream, even more so in this day and age where everybody wants something for nothing.

But as for who 'shared' and celebrated that video, it's of no consequence to me, I tend to judge it on its own merit. But there you go

The thing is goaty, and this is also an answer to dunover's post, I'm not even an advocate for 'full Socialism' (let alone Communism), I think there are elements of the Capitalist economic system that work very well, and indeed do have the potential to improve the lives of the many (a rising tide lifts all boats and whatnot).

In fact I'm sure I've made this post before:

SEARCH MODE ACTIVATED

Yes here we are.

UK Conservative Party Leadership Election - Casinomeister Forum

 

[goatwack]

Holy crap. Determined not to be outdone by Grant Shapps' skit about travelling across the UK, donning shades, shorts and sandals, here we have Jeremy 'You'll never guess what rhymes with Hunt' doing Story Hour, via the aid of scribblings on cups.

Never thought I'd see the current conflict demonstrated so succinctly as seeing 'Ukraine' etched on a canteen foam coffee cup, but it certainly hits home.

The berk is of course being roundly mocked, and it's at this point where even I wished GARY would walk into shot and clock him

 

[mack341]

The original tweet I wanted to post was a retweet by James Whale of this vid, but that meant CM land redirected to watching the vid on twitter. I did have a quick scan of the replies to James whale on this vid, and most weren't happy/triggered.

One point made being they're more socialist in the scandi countries and it works well, but of course they do not have the population size in general, sweden has the largest and I did read somewhere they're having to cut back and compared to previous decades it is now hard to get housing etc..rent and waiting lists are way up.

I think the underlying point in the vid is correct, but also I don't think 'trickle down' theory works, it did to some extent when you had english aristocracy owning industry and businesses, [or local businessmen similar to Mrslot5's point regarding variety, where it's just not the big boys hoovering up all the market] but not now when the principal owner is tax registered in monaco or elsewhere.

In actual fact a similar scenario to the vid is being played out in the EU/europe, where successful germany is expected to dip into its pockets and help the less well off members, and there comes a point where it causes resentment.

In a society scenario when you went down the more socialist route you'd expect or require crime to go down as a benefit, generally in the UK labour voting areas have the highest crime so their policies [whatever they are, education, youth clubs etc..] have no positive effect at local govt level.

Edit: Interestingly I believe the 'wealth gap' accelerated under Blair and Brown's partnership compared to J. Major's tenure or even maggie's.

 

[Mr_Slot5]

Edit: Interestingly I believe the 'wealth gap' accelerated under Blair and Brown's partnership compared to J. Major's tenure or even maggie's.

Yes, it’s a point I’ve made before.

That New Labour government was a real wolf in sheep’s clothing. Look at the legacy of damage it caused (that people are too quick to solely pin at the door of the Tories).

 

[ChopleyIOM]

Yes, it’s a point I’ve made before.

That New Labour government was a real wolf in sheep’s clothing. Look at the legacy of damage it caused (that people are too quick to solely pin at the door of the Tories).

I posted the exact same point earlier in the month

UK Conservative Party Leadership Election - Page 40 - Casinomeister Forum

New Labour did a lot of good work in terms of lifting people up from the bottom, but they weren't even remotely concerned about runaway acceleration in wealth at the top, which was one of their (many) failings, although I maintain they achieved a lot of good stuff.

We really need to be clear on this, New Labour weren't a particularly left wing project, Starmer's Labour is centre-left at best, even Corbyn's Labour was, in the grand scheme of things, not massively radical when framed in a historical context (although certainly radical when compared to the other options on offer then, and now).

 

[mack341]

I think '97 to around 2006 new labour benefitted chiefly from the new technology, mobile phones and internet/broadband, the economy [and personal debt] was expanding, on the back of that they could afford a bit of largesse.

Nothing fundamentally improved in terms of Govt provided services, policing, education etc.. [e.g. access to a GP in 1994 was better and certainly no worse than 2002] and the restrictions on immigration were loosened.

Things modernise and improve in the world due to businesses and innovation, I don't think the uk labour can take credit for those things around the early 2000s just as maggie T shouldn't be able take claim for the home computer and vhs boom. They would've happened anyway with either party in power.

N.labour were obsessed with going on about 'reforms', and blair was the ultimate snake oil salesman in political form, more interested in ME wars and geopolitics than anything else.

 

[ChopleyIOM]

Holy crap. Determined not to be outdone by Grant Shapps' skit about travelling across the UK, donning shades, shorts and sandals, here we have Jeremy 'You'll never guess what rhymes with Hunt' doing Story Hour, via the aid of scribblings on cups.

Never thought I'd see the current conflict demonstrated so succinctly as seeing 'Ukraine' etched on a canteen foam coffee cup, but it certainly hits home.

The berk is of course being roundly mocked, and it's at this point where even I wished GARY would walk into shot and clock him

That is so awful. Inflation will drop simply because it's a measure of price increases from one period of defined time to the next, usually annually but you can do monthly as well.

There's only one war in Ukraine, there's only one pandemic, there's only one supply chain issue crisis - yes they might continue for more than one year, but their major impact on inflation can only happen once.

(I note there is no 'BREXIT CUP' despite it having been pretty well established that it's going to cost the UK about 5% of GDP on a permanent basis, and has, for example, added around 5-10% onto the cost of basic foodstuffs because of how more muddled supply chains into the UK are now.)

Watch what happens next, inflation will fall dramatically in the next three months or so, because it literally can't do anything else unless we have another worldwide disaster, and the Tories will claim credit for that as 'getting the economy back on track', when in reality you may as well just claim credit for waking up one morning and doing a massive shit. I mean, it's nice to have a big cleansing shit whilst reading the latest issue of Private Eye, but on the other hand, you haven't really achieved anything notable - sooner or later you're going to have a massive morning shit.

I promise you that the Tories will be claiming credit, in the next few months, for having gone to the toilet.

 

[goatwack]

I think '97 to around 2006 new labour benefitted chiefly from the new technology, mobile phones and internet/broadband, the economy [and personal debt] was expanding, on the back of that they could afford a bit of largesse.

Nothing fundamentally improved in terms of Govt provided services, policing, education etc.. [e.g. access to a GP in 1994 was better and certainly no worse than 2002] and the restrictions on immigration were loosened.

Things modernise and improve in the world due to businesses and innovation, I don't think the uk labour can take credit for those things around the early 2000s just as maggie T shouldn't be able take claim for the home computer and vhs boom. They would've happened anyway with either party in power.

N.labour were obsessed with going on about 'reforms', and blair was the ultimate snake oil salesman in political form, more interested in ME wars and geopolitics than anything else.

But what an election campaign drive that was by Blair and New Labour, on that front they excelled and utterly trounced the Conservatives. I remember the zeitgeist, the optimism wafting around the country.

Blair could do no wrong, said the right things, had the right charisma and for a while it seemed we might have an all-time great PM!

Of course his undoing was the comically illegal incursion into the Middle East that nobody wanted or asked for, the first shoots of ministers peddling Fake News to the masses, that irrevocably tainted his leadership....

Essentially this is what always happens, people grow weary of one government's failed pledges after God knows how long, and seek to give others a chance, to oust the leaders in charge for 'something else', whilst also sticking two fingers up and attributing a lot of their ills on those that have seemingly done nothing to improve anything, other than to, predictably, line their own pockets and further their political aspirations.

There'd have to be something seriously flawed within Labour to not clean up at the next General Election, given that all they have to do is keep things in order in-house, and simply let the Conservatives unfold before the nation in the next couple of years. Because this current shower have to be the most un-Conservative, self-obsessed grifters that simply aren't in line with the values of the party they represent, simples

 

[mack341]

The problem is labour are still riddled with MPs like lloyd russell-moyle here, and once they get hold of the statute book they won't be able to resist, using new laws to try and shape society to conform to their utopian vision, which currently is focused on lgbtq stuff, then racism and climate change. Things that don't much affect the daily lives of the majority they will govern over.

 

[mack341]

But what an election campaign drive that was by Blair and New Labour, on that front they excelled and utterly trounced the Conservatives. I remember the zeitgeist, the optimism wafting around the country.

Blair could do no wrong, said the right things, had the right charisma and for a while it seemed we might have an all-time great PM!

Of course his undoing was the comically illegal incursion into the Middle East that nobody wanted or asked for, the first shoots of ministers peddling Fake News to the masses, that irrevocably tainted his leadership....

Essentially this is what always happens, people grow weary of one government's failed pledges after God knows how long, and seek to give others a chance, to oust the leaders in charge for 'something else', whilst also sticking two fingers up and attributing a lot of their ills on those that have seemingly done nothing to improve anything, other than to, predictably, line their own pockets and further their political aspirations.

There'd have to be something seriously flawed within Labour to not clean up at the next General Election, given that all they have to do is keep things in order in-house, and simply let the Conservatives unfold before the nation in the next couple of years. Because this current shower have to be the most un-Conservative, self-obsessed grifters that simply aren't in line with the values of the party they represent, simples

It was kind of 'we're going to take the best bits of maggie's conservatives and the best bits of labour and combine the two to make new labour', the 1997 conservatives with mr grey aka John Major as the leader were a shambles, the media painted him as a y-front wearing man obsessed with eating garden peas! And the sleaze hung round them, they had no chance to beat the slick run Blair mandelson project.

 

[goatwack]

This is why the classic depiction of John Major being lampooned on Spitting Image will forever remain. I shall never forget him eating peas at the dinner table

 

[ChopleyIOM]

The problem is labour are still riddled with MPs like lloyd russell-moyle here, and once they get hold of the statute book they won't be able to resist, using new laws to try and shape society to conform to their utopian vision, which currently is focused on lgbtq stuff, then racism and climate change. Things that don't much affect the daily lives of the majority they will govern over.

You should have a word with some young folks, climate change is absolute near the top of their list when it comes to political priorities.

Also, in other news, latest analysis shows that the Tories are also losing support amongst older people, the top reasons being cited are the dreadful state of the NHS (older people either already do need more healthcare, or are very much aware that they likely soon will), the equally dreadful state of social care, and the Johnson Partygate era which many older people take an incredibly dim view of.

It's also worth noting that they had very little support amongst the young to start with, so not much to lose, which skews the figures a bit. But if they're losing support amongst older people as well, they really are screwed.

 

[dunover]

You should have a word with some young folks, climate change is absolute near the top of their list when it comes to political priorities.

Also, in other news, latest analysis shows that the Tories are also losing support amongst older people, the top reasons being cited are the dreadful state of the NHS (older people either already do need more healthcare, or are very much aware that they likely soon will), the equally dreadful state of social care, and the Johnson Partygate era which many older people take an incredibly dim view of.

It's also worth noting that they had very little support amongst the young to start with, so not much to lose, which skews the figures a bit. But if they're losing support amongst older people as well, they really are screwed.

And? One shower of shit to another. Meaningless.

 

[ChopleyIOM]

The berk is of course being roundly mocked, and it's at this point where even I wished GARY would walk into shot and clock him

Speaking of which he was on the BBC today.

It's a really important point too, for starters this £2.3 billion the Tories are spending on 'levelling up' in the grand scheme of things is chicken feed, but it's also massively dwarfed by the transfer of money to the rich since the start of Covid, who have seen their purchasing power, and their ability to hoover up assets (like houses) far outstrip what normal people can manage.

This is part of why unremarkable, small, two-bedroom terraced houses in my rough old shithole home town in North Manchester are going for £150K.

I also covered this subject in some detail here, this is really important stuff and more people need to get their heads around it, because wealth inequality in the UK is what's grinding normal folks into dust - Brexit - whats the difference..... - Page 207 - Casinomeister Forum

 

[Webzcas]

The state of politics in the UK is just so so so depressing at the moment. We have major issues affecting all of us, yet what have we got?

An incompetent joke of a government that couldn't run a pee up in a brewery. An ineffective opposition in Labour, which is still infected by the grass roots Momentum movement ala oooooh Jeremy Corbyn. Then north of Carlisle we have the cult of Jimmy Krankie who continues to bang her one policy drum, to try and drive an arrow through the heart of the country.

I give up!

 

[goatwack]

You should have a word with some young folks, climate change is absolute near the top of their list when it comes to political priorities.

Also, in other news, latest analysis shows that the Tories are also losing support amongst older people, the top reasons being cited are the dreadful state of the NHS (older people either already do need more healthcare, or are very much aware that they likely soon will), the equally dreadful state of social care, and the Johnson Partygate era which many older people take an incredibly dim view of.

It's also worth noting that they had very little support amongst the young to start with, so not much to lose, which skews the figures a bit. But if they're losing support amongst older people as well, they really are screwed.

Problem with those demographics is that the younger age bracket may want the most change, but aren't proactively making any, whether that be about environmental issues or actually going out to vote, Twittersphere slacktivism doesn't count!

Being vocal about the environment doesn't make them more environmentally aware, no more than someone who quietly goes about their business. If anything, these younger demographics have proven that they they're just hot air, and will trash festival beaches and venues without a care in the world. I guess that makes them idealistic hypocrites?

And as for their outlook looking bleak, you could level that at any generation that experienced their own hardships of the time, it is not beholden to them.

And whilst they may pontificate about how difficult it is for them to get a potential mortgage, as they mull over it, sipping their third Starbucks coffee of the afternoon, it's worth pointing out that there are just as many able-bodied adults of working age left in the same predicament. How about training them up and levelling them up? Or is the empathy only saved for the nose-picking ingrates that have the best technology, mod-cons and gadgets to any other generation prior?

 

[pinnit2014]

The state of politics in the UK is just so so so depressing at the moment. We have major issues affecting all of us, yet what have we got?

An incompetent joke of a government that couldn't run a pee up in a brewery. An ineffective opposition in Labour, which is still infected by the grass roots Momentum movement ala oooooh Jeremy Corbyn. Then north of Carlisle we have the cult of Jimmy Krankie who continues to bang her one policy drum, to try and drive an arrow through the heart of the country.

I give up!

Well this is the thing: i think it's a case of when the next one comes and if it does, the SNP get it. Once that happens, the ball rolls and Northern Ireland and the real fall of the Empire is complete

I don't think a Labour Govt would have seen THAT much of a decline in their support but it's probably pushed some people on the socialist scale towards them having the Tories in power. You look as a Scot down at Westminster and it's hard not to think: eh?

Now, that's not to detract from the fact the SNP agenda is so far up the left it's in Chile but that's what it is.

And as i said before i don't get how people can want Brexit but can't fathom why the Scot's want the same.

 

[pinnit2014]

Problem with those demographics is that the younger age bracket may want the most change, but aren't proactively making any, whether that be about environmental issues or actually going out to vote, Twittersphere slacktivism doesn't count!

Being vocal about the environment doesn't make them more environmentally aware, no more than someone who quietly goes about their business. If anything, these younger demographics have proven that they they're just hot air, and will trash festival beaches and venues without a care in the world. I guess that makes them idealistic hypocrites?

And as for their outlook looking bleak, you could level that at any generation that experienced their own hardships of the time, it is not beholden to them.

And whilst they may pontificate about how difficult it is for them to get a potential mortgage, as they mull over it, sipping their third Starbucks coffee of the afternoon, it's worth pointing out that there are just as many able-bodied adults of working age left in the same predicament. How about training them up and levelling them up? Or is the empathy only saved for the nose-picking ingrates that have the best technology, mod-cons and gadgets to any other generation prior?

Well exactly - i think anyone typing here has worried out: how do i explain those pointless Bonanza deposits on my bank statements

The thing about Climate Change is how large organisations have managed to downstream the responsibility - they've turned it from' how/why are you guys producing so much packaging' to 'you are evil for not recycling that milk carton' - unless you get China/India/USA on board it doesn't make a difference what you do at a local level - you can't even influence it.

 

[Webzcas]

Well this is the thing: i think it's a case of when the next one comes and if it does, the SNP get it. Once that happens, the ball rolls and Northern Ireland and the real fall of the Empire is complete

I don't think a Labour Govt would have seen THAT much of a decline in their support but it's probably pushed some people on the socialist scale towards them having the Tories in power. You look as a Scot down at Westminster and it's hard not to think: eh?

Now, that's not to detract from the fact the SNP agenda is so far up the left it's in Chile but that's what it is.

And as i said before i don't get how people can want Brexit but can't fathom why the Scot's want the same.

Scexit is completely different to Brexit. The European Union was not meant to be a political union, which is what it has turned into. Brexiteers or whatever you want to label them as are not separatists and advocates of secession, which is what the SNP are. I also dare say the vast majority of people that voted in 2016 for Brexit do not hate nationals of other EU member states. Same can't be said for the majority of those SNP supporters and their attitudes towards their neighbours south of Gretna.

 

[mack341]

You should have a word with some young folks, climate change is absolute near the top of their list when it comes to political priorities.

Also, in other news, latest analysis shows that the Tories are also losing support amongst older people, the top reasons being cited are the dreadful state of the NHS (older people either already do need more healthcare, or are very much aware that they likely soon will), the equally dreadful state of social care, and the Johnson Partygate era which many older people take an incredibly dim view of.

It's also worth noting that they had very little support amongst the young to start with, so not much to lose, which skews the figures a bit. But if they're losing support amongst older people as well, they really are screwed.

That's because the youngsters have been brainwashed, climate change caused by too much 'carbon' is in the curriculum, the scientific opinions counter to it are not. [Destruction of natural habitat from deforestation and industrial pollution is more concerning to me]

The conservatives handling of the NHS is poor, it's exposing them, like failing state schools, to that feeling 'well they're not really bothered because they can go private'.

However the tweet below makes a very good point re the potential labour have for being better:

 

[pinnit2014]

Scexit is completely different to Brexit. The European Union was not meant to be a political union, which is what it has turned into. Brexiteers or whatever you want to label them as are not separatists and advocates of secession, which is what the SNP are. I also dare say the vast majority of people that voted in 2016 for Brexit do not hate nationals of other EU member states. Same can't be said for the majority of those SNP supporters and their attitudes towards their neighbours south of Gretna.

I don't and i don't think many up here do see it as completely different to be honest mate - when i was hearing about Brexit it was about control, it was about feeing self from x,y,z.....and listen , we can debate if that's applicable up here (for example, the SNP pulling their punches with existing powers would say maybe it's not the same - granted and i get that). But Brexit was tagged as master of your own destiny, which to be fair, rightly or wrongly, is what a large number of here see Sexxyit as. Hamstrung with Westminster politics - much different from some of the EU talk - i'm not so sure

What i will say is that a Sexyit vote will call the SNP's bluff - for a long time they've used Whitehall as the bogeyman for their own incompetence and with it gone maybe they will be too - doubt it though, as no doubt 20 years later we'll hear: ah but, we're fixing X years of mismanagement BS.

But yeah i do agree the agenda up here is more steeped in nationalism (something which i've always been uncomfortable with personally), rather than pragmatism.

 

[pinnit2014]

That's because the youngsters have been brainwashed, climate change caused by too much 'carbon' is in the curriculum, the scientific opinions counter to it are not. [Destruction of natural habitat from deforestation and industrial pollution is more concerning to me]

The conservatives handling of the NHS is poor, it's exposing them, like failing state schools, to that feeling 'well they're not really bothered because they can go private'.

However the tweet below makes a very good point re the potential labour have for being better:

I think one of the problems with Climate Change is that it's politicised to such an extent no one really know what's what. I was out, as i do separating the glass, from the paper, from the food and thinking: is this really making a difference? You seen at the COP in Glasgow there the complete and abject failure to address the country pollution that the like of China generate. But hey, keep recycling those plastic containers than the big companies still produce!

Not helped by the fact they told people to buy bamboo cups and then found out that at certain temperatures they release dangerous chemicals - gee whiz

 

[mack341]

Interesting analysis, I hadn't taken note of the obvious problems a growing woker by the day, semi marxist SNP might cause catholics, who made up a large percentage of yes voters:

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Six months prior to the first referendum on independence Professor Sir Tom Devine, Scotland’s foremost historian, suggested the Irish Catholic community would largely support a Yes vote. Following the referendum official research showed that support for independence among Scotland’s faith groups was indeed highest in the Irish Catholic community.

[But]...Mr Salmond has gone, of course, and in his absence a creeping hostility to Catholicism and the wider Christian religion has begun to poison this party. Catholics who favour an independent Scotland are becoming increasingly fidgety about what the country will look like if the SNP falls completely under the influence of its woke warriors.

Even a cursory inspection of the Twitter accounts of young SNP activists reveals an alarming degree of hostility to Catholic schools and any elected officials who dare to confess their Christian convictions. This is apparent in the intimidation of some Christian SNP politicians who dare to maintain the absolute humanity and sanctity of an unborn child.

The SNP’s proposed Gender Recognition reforms and Hate

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legislation also pose challenges for authentic Christians. Catholic and Christian thought has been virtually cancelled in Scotland to a point where it’s now almost impossible to remain true to the tenets of your faith in public life if you want to have a rewarding career.

-------------

I don't see what right Sturgeon has to demand another 'once in a life time' independence vote, however as we share a monarch perhaps after King Charles passes that would be a reasonable milestone to decide whether to refresh the union.

Scotland won't turn to terrorism, what's the downside of saying 'sorry no can do' [speaking as someone with part scottish ancestry, who gets the comedy of 'still game'] I think both countries are stronger together.

IMO Sturgeon is not even a nationalist, hers is a socialist/liberal reflex against perpetual conservative govt from london. A real nationalist wouldn't want to join the EU and give up the hard fought sovereignty just gained.

 

[mack341]

Ey up it's Chopley's boy in action: