Twin casino RTP settings

ultra100

Full Member
webmeister
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Jul 27, 2006
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Europe
Okey, so what about the statement from the official representative from Twin.com ? It was already mentioned in the thread:

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Any response @Twin.com please?
 

maxd

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ultra100

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And the other thing to add about Unibet is that there is no SOW nonesense,in fact i have never even been asked for KYC documentation from them.Finally withdrawals to my debit card have been known to hit my bank account in under a minute.
The post by the Twin rep saying they aim to provide a good customer service will cut no ice with members of this forum now that we know they have imposed a disgustingly low rtp on some of their slots.

Yeah, luckily there are still awesome places with the default/highest RTPs slots and quick cash-outs. Bitstarz also offers default RTP settings, along with the ultra fast withdrawals.
 

Toronion

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Yeah, luckily there are still awesome places with the default/highest RTPs slots and quick cash-outs. Bitstarz also offers default RTP settings, along with the ultra fast withdrawals.
In Bitstarz dont show in play´n go the RTP but in pragmatic and other provider have 96%
 

maxd

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Location
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You have been in industry for ages so is this kind of cheating ok from @Twin ?
I don't gamble anymore, haven't for almost 15 years. And I certainly wouldn't be tempted by abnormally low RTP.

HOWEVER, it's only cheating if they say it is one thing and then do another which as far as I know is not the case here.
So are they cheating? Not as far as I can see.

Would I want to play low RTPs? Obviously not, but each to their own.

I do like the idea that RTP be factored in to the Casinomeister Rating, not sure of the mechanism we could use. As mentioned previously though that's not something I have access to, Bryan is your man for that.
 

Nate

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Yeah, luckily there are still awesome places with the default/highest RTPs slots and quick cash-outs. Bitstarz also offers default RTP settings, along with the ultra fast withdrawals.
Bitstarz does not offer the highest RTP on Play'n Go.

Nate
 

Casinomeister

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Bierland
Any chance of any sort of official input here please @Casinomeister ?

The 9.7 rating for this casino really needs revisiting as it was awarded back when Twin said they were running all the top RTPs, whereas now they're helping themselves to a house edge of 12.5% on PnG slots.

At least Dick Turpin wore a mask, as the old saying goes.

As I have mentioned ad nasueum, there are TWO rating systems here at Casinomeister - and this was established YEARS ago. The CM rating is based on a mathematical formula - which was written some time ago when RTPs were written in stone and not much of an issue. And then there is the Meister Minion rating which is our player ratings. Ironically, most of the folks complaining about the CM ratings are eligible to become Meister Minions and rate the casinos themselves. It's like the Meister Minions are a new thing. We have been doing this for donkey years.

Nonetheless, I realize the importance of including RTPs into the rating formula. The only question is how to implement this fairly and how to track it.

Like most of the members here, I was under the impression that Twin was running RTPs at the highest level. I guess I was wrong, and it's definitly not cool that we were not informed of this change. You don't make a statement and subsequently do the opposite without a heads up.

@pereblue and @maxd : what are your thoughts in this issue in general? Im sure you have some

You have been in industry for ages so is this kind of cheating ok from @Twin ?
As a long time member here, you should be well aware that Max deals primarily with complaints, and that Pere deals with technical matters. Don't badger the moderators.
 

dunover

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To add my two penn'orth it's a competitive casino world out there and market conditions which we often attribute, wrongly in many cases, to 'greed' will inevitably induce a herd mentality like you see in retail for example. One producer shrinks a product, others will do so later. One discounts baked beans, the others do the same. Pretty much the same here - you can only guess if a casino has seen others reduce RTP and observe them 'get away with it' and followed, OR has had to implement a reduction due to market conditions. The exact reason me, Bryan or anyone else will not know.

To strike points from a casino for being forced in some cases to compete in the market could be unfair to those who did it solely for that reason. As I said, it will be hard to tell either way. It's a bit like slamming your local mini-market shop because they charge higher prices than a corporate supermarket chain. Unibet, Hills etc. are giant operations with multi-market profits to cover the cost or subsidize RTP if they choose, whereas most are not.

So the simplest way to incorporate this into a casino listing here would not be the points, but I believe a simple star or emblem by their label/rating/logo. You would only need 3 types, say a green star denoting NONE of the games are sub-factory top RTP, an orange or green/red split star where SOME games are offered lower than top and a red star if ALL games where the option exists are at sub-factory RTP.

This would be easy to spot for the viewer, it's a simple legend and wouldn't involve pissing about with formulae and points. @maxd @Casinomeister

And with our extensive membership across all sites, it would be easy to keep updated in a specific 'My Casino's RTP' thread or similar, so people can keep us informed but in one reference thread. :)

To ensure this is kept complete, the CM casino reps could be mass-mailed and informed of this and told it's their call to update us themselves if possible.
 
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Casinomeister

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Location
Bierland
...

So the simplest way to incorporate this into a casino listing here would not be the points, but I believe a simple star or emblem by their label/rating/logo. You would only need 3 types, say a green star denoting NONE of the games are sub-factory top RTP, an orange or green/red split star where SOME games are offered lower than top and a red star if ALL games where the option exists are at sub-factory RTP.

This would be easy to spot for the viewer, it's a simple legend and wouldn't involve pissing about with formulae and points. @maxd @Casinomeister

And with our extensive membership across all sites, it would be easy to keep updated in a specific 'My Casino's RTP' thread or similar, so people can keep us informed but in one reference thread. :)

To ensure this is kept complete, the CM casino reps could be mass-mailed and informed of this and told it's their call to update us themselves if possible.
This sounds like something we can implement. And yes, we should reserve judgement on "why" RTPs change, it's not all about greed in most cases, but survivability. But the reasons are inconsequential, it's the numbers/percentages that are.
 

andym

Experienced Member
Joined
Jul 6, 2013
Location
germany
Whenever it gets uncomfortable here the casinoreps suddenly dissapear.
You can see that in this thread with twin, I saw that with N1 a couple of weeks ago,…
that’s the biggest shame…
 

helafast

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It's almost impossible to find a casino running the higher versions of NLC and PNG. I will not play at any casino that has games running lower than the 94% and honestly I just avoid PNG games because they really aren't that great. They promise some Ludacris max win that is not even achievable.

I tend to stick with providers that don't have multiple RTP but I did see some even more bad news on the RTP front - Quickspin now have introduced new reduced RTP versions of their games, but instead of dropping from 96 to 94, they have decided that 90% will be the second version - basically more greed and robbery for the casinos :(
 

ultra100

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Like most of the members here, I was under the impression that Twin was running RTPs at the highest level. I guess I was wrong, and it's definitly not cool that we were not informed of this change. You don't make a statement and subsequently do the opposite without a heads up.

Exactly.

Its company and business decision to take lower RTP settings. However, when you make a public statement that you will ALWAYS have the highest RTP and then quietly lower to minimum, its something else. What about the CM members who played regularly there and never questioned the RTP settings since they read this statement? And this is not the first case, recent one: Casino Friday vetted and CM Accredited - Casinomeister Forum
 
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sapit222

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Nov 7, 2012
Location
Stockholm
Yeah Videoslots also lowered the RTP secretly before (they let every1 know about it in their "news", but no1 reads that and its hidden away at the bottom of their homepage = secretly.)

*When a casino has lowered the RTP it should say so in clear text (popup window?) so every1 can see it when they login or open a game.
The RTP should also be visible at all times for every game (like Unibet has it).
You shouldnt be forced to search for it by clicking (?/!) or info or whatever.

I think Leovegas also did it?


:axeman: :axeman: :axeman: :axeman: :axeman: :axeman:
 
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ChopleyIOM

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To add my two penn'orth it's a competitive casino world out there and market conditions which we often attribute, wrongly in many cases, to 'greed' will inevitably induce a herd mentality like you see in retail for example. One producer shrinks a product, others will do so later. One discounts baked beans, the others do the same. Pretty much the same here - you can only guess if a casino has seen others reduce RTP and observe them 'get away with it' and followed, OR has had to implement a reduction due to market conditions. The exact reason me, Bryan or anyone else will not know.

To strike points from a casino for being forced in some cases to compete in the market could be unfair to those who did it solely for that reason. As I said, it will be hard to tell either way. It's a bit like slamming your local mini-market shop because they charge higher prices than a corporate supermarket chain. Unibet, Hills etc. are giant operations with multi-market profits to cover the cost or subsidize RTP if they choose, whereas most are not.

The problem I have with this analogy is that the local mini-market is providing a useful service to society, so someone might choose to pay slightly higher prices because they appreciate the convenience of a nearby store that provides them with a function that the nearest branch of Asda a few miles away can't.

Playing at an online casino is an entirely different scenario, the casino exists only to take money off the players, there are no goods or meaningful services for sale (and indeed the casino is basically just 'reselling' games made by other organisations), the players only play in the hope of winning, and to fulfil their desire/urge to have a gamble. (Or in some cases, because of addiction.)

Moreover, there's no such thing as 'bespoke service' at a casino these days, there's no kind of 'boutique offering' that smaller casinos can provide, since none of the games are their own and the bonus is all but dead (at least for 'normal' players), as such all it really comes down to is (1) How much are the games paying out, how likely am I to win (i.e. RTP) and (2) How quickly and with how little fuss will I get paid if I win? (3Dice is one of the very few (only?) exceptions left in this regard, as they're entirely a self-contained outfit, do make their own games, do maintain a bonus/VIP structure, do run special offers and promotions that actually have some value to them, and so on - if there are any others, I'm not aware of them.)

With the greatest of respect I honestly have no earthly idea why any player would bother with 99% of the new casinos that turn up, especially since it's the smaller operators that seem to struggle most with quick payouts, support and live support, SOW nonsense, not understanding the rules under which they're supposed to be operating, games being laggy and disconnecting due to shitty integration, and so on.

In a world when Unibet still exists (top RTPs on everything, massive selection of providers and games, payouts often in 5-10 minutes, easy document verification, no SOW crap etc), what on earth is Twin's pitch for our custom when they can't even satisfy the 'Unibet Standard', let alone when they've also decided to help themselves to a house edge of a truly monstrous 12.5% on PnG slots?

I can understand the case (although I personally disagree with it) for playing at somewhere like VS that do have a decent number of perks and rewards on offer, do pay out very quickly, and have at least only taken 94% versions of games rather than going any lower. (Although it can never be stated too many times that a move from 96% to 94% increases the house edge by 50%.)

I've read the CM review for Twin and nothing jumps out at me as being exceptional, including the bonuses which are described as 'great', and all of this with the knowledge that they'll reduce RTPs on some games to 87.5% and not even tell their players about it, waiting instead to be called out on it here on the forums.

My recommendation would be to add RTP as a category here, weight it more than the other categories (so it has a 200%-300% weighted impact on the overall casino rating), and award Twin zero shields out of five. I'd also add an explicit 'LOW RTP WARNING' to the 'Cons' column.

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andym

Experienced Member
Joined
Jul 6, 2013
Location
germany
The problem I have with this analogy is that the local mini-market is providing a useful service to society, so someone might choose to pay slightly higher prices because they appreciate the convenience of a nearby store that provides them with a function that the nearest branch of Asda a few miles away can't.

Playing at an online casino is an entirely different scenario, the casino exists only to take money off the players, there are no goods or meaningful services for sale (and indeed the casino is basically just 'reselling' games made by other organisations), the players only play in the hope of winning, and to fulfil their desire/urge to have a gamble. (Or in some cases, because of addiction.)

Moreover, there's no such thing as 'bespoke service' at a casino these days, there's no kind of 'boutique offering' that smaller casinos can provide, since none of the games are their own and the bonus is all but dead (at least for 'normal' players), as such all it really comes down to is (1) How much are the games paying out, how likely am I to win (i.e. RTP) and (2) How quickly and with how little fuss will I get paid if I win? (3Dice is one of the very few (only?) exceptions left in this regard, as they're entirely a self-contained outfit, do make their own games, do maintain a bonus/VIP structure, do run special offers and promotions that actually have some value to them, and so on - if there are any others, I'm not aware of them.)

With the greatest of respect I honestly have no earthly idea why any player would bother with 99% of the new casinos that turn up, especially since it's the smaller operators that seem to struggle most with quick payouts, support and live support, SOW nonsense, not understanding the rules under which they're supposed to be operating, games being laggy and disconnecting due to shitty integration, and so on.

In a world when Unibet still exists (top RTPs on everything, massive selection of providers and games, payouts often in 5-10 minutes, easy document verification, no SOW crap etc), what on earth is Twin's pitch for our custom when they can't even satisfy the 'Unibet Standard', let alone when they've also decided to help themselves to a house edge of a truly monstrous 12.5% on PnG slots?

I can understand the case (although I personally disagree with it) for playing at somewhere like VS that do have a decent number of perks and rewards on offer, do pay out very quickly, and have at least only taken 94% versions of games rather than going any lower. (Although it can never be stated too many times that a move from 96% to 94% increases the house edge by 50%.)

I've read the CM review for Twin and nothing jumps out at me as being exceptional, including the bonuses which are described as 'great', and all of this with the knowledge that they'll reduce RTPs on some games to 87.5% and not even tell their players about it, waiting instead to be called out on it here on the forums.

My recommendation would be to add RTP as a category here, weight it more than the other categories (so it has a 200%-300% weighted impact on the overall casino rating), and award Twin zero shields out of five. I'd also add an explicit 'LOW RTP WARNING' to the 'Cons' colu
The problem I have with this analogy is that the local mini-market is providing a useful service to society, so someone might choose to pay slightly higher prices because they appreciate the convenience of a nearby store that provides them with a function that the nearest branch of Asda a few miles away can't.

Playing at an online casino is an entirely different scenario, the casino exists only to take money off the players, there are no goods or meaningful services for sale (and indeed the casino is basically just 'reselling' games made by other organisations), the players only play in the hope of winning, and to fulfil their desire/urge to have a gamble. (Or in some cases, because of addiction.)

Moreover, there's no such thing as 'bespoke service' at a casino these days, there's no kind of 'boutique offering' that smaller casinos can provide, since none of the games are their own and the bonus is all but dead (at least for 'normal' players), as such all it really comes down to is (1) How much are the games paying out, how likely am I to win (i.e. RTP) and (2) How quickly and with how little fuss will I get paid if I win? (3Dice is one of the very few (only?) exceptions left in this regard, as they're entirely a self-contained outfit, do make their own games, do maintain a bonus/VIP structure, do run special offers and promotions that actually have some value to them, and so on - if there are any others, I'm not aware of them.)

With the greatest of respect I honestly have no earthly idea why any player would bother with 99% of the new casinos that turn up, especially since it's the smaller operators that seem to struggle most with quick payouts, support and live support, SOW nonsense, not understanding the rules under which they're supposed to be operating, games being laggy and disconnecting due to shitty integration, and so on.

In a world when Unibet still exists (top RTPs on everything, massive selection of providers and games, payouts often in 5-10 minutes, easy document verification, no SOW crap etc), what on earth is Twin's pitch for our custom when they can't even satisfy the 'Unibet Standard', let alone when they've also decided to help themselves to a house edge of a truly monstrous 12.5% on PnG slots?

I can understand the case (although I personally disagree with it) for playing at somewhere like VS that do have a decent number of perks and rewards on offer, do pay out very quickly, and have at least only taken 94% versions of games rather than going any lower. (Although it can never be stated too many times that a move from 96% to 94% increases the house edge by 50%.)

I've read the CM review for Twin and nothing jumps out at me as being exceptional, including the bonuses which are described as 'great', and all of this with the knowledge that they'll reduce RTPs on some games to 87.5% and not ev

My recommendation would be to add RTP as a category here, weight it more than the other categories (so it has a 200%-300% weighted impact on the overall casino rating), and award Twin zero shields out of five. I'd also add an explicit 'LOW RTP WARNING' to the 'Cons' column.
The problem I have with this analogy is that the local mini-market is providing a useful service to society, so someone might choose to pay slightly higher prices because they appreciate the convenience of a nearby store that provides them with a function that the nearest branch of Asda a few miles away can't.

Playing at an online casino is an entirely different scenario, the casino exists only to take money off the players, there are no goods or meaningful services for sale (and indeed the casino is basically just 'reselling' games made by other organisations), the players only play in the hope of winning, and to fulfil their desire/urge to have a gamble. (Or in some cases, because of addiction.)

Moreover, there's no such thing as 'bespoke service' at a casino these days, there's no kind of 'boutique offering' that smaller casinos can provide, since none of the games are their own and the bonus is all but dead (at least for 'normal' players), as such all it really comes down to is (1) How much are the games paying out, how likely am I to win (i.e. RTP) and (2) How quickly and with how little fuss will I get paid if I win? (3Dice is one of the very few (only?) exceptions left in this regard, as they're entirely a self-contained outfit, do make their own games, do maintain a bonus/VIP structure, do run special offers and promotions that actually have some value to them, and so on - if there are any others, I'm not aware of them.)

With the greatest of respect I honestly have no earthly idea why any player would bother with 99% of the new casinos that turn up, especially since it's the smaller operators that seem to struggle most with quick payouts, support and live support, SOW nonsense, not understanding the rules under which they're supposed to be operating, games being laggy and disconnecting due to shitty integration, and so on.

In a world when Unibet still exists (top RTPs on everything, massive selection of providers and games, payouts often in 5-10 minutes, easy document verification, no SOW crap etc), what on earth is Twin's pitch for our custom when they can't even satisfy the 'Unibet Standard', let alone when they've also decided to help themselves to a house edge of a truly monstrous 12.5% on PnG slots?

I can understand the case (although I personally disagree with it) for playing at somewhere like VS that do have a decent number of perks and rewards on offer, do pay out very quickly, and have at least only taken 94% versions of games rather than going any lower. (Although it can never be stated too many times that a move from 96% to 94% increases the house edge by 50%.)

I've read the CM review for Twin and nothing jumps out at me as being exceptional, including the bonuses which are described as 'great', and all of this with the knowledge that they'll reduce RTPs on some games to 87.5% and not even tell their players about it, waiting instead to be called out on it here on the forums.

My recommendation would be to add RTP as a category here, weight it more than the other categories (so it has a 200%-300% weighted impact on the overall casino rating), and award Twin zero shields out of five. I'd also add an explicit 'LOW RTP WARNING' to the 'Cons' column.

View attachment 158401
Like the idea with a new RTP rating with a 300% influence and a red warning box in addition.
 

cncas2123

Meister Member
Joined
May 23, 2015
Location
Belfast
I would ask the question, if RTP's are to be taken into account for the Casino ratings, who is going to monitor them? I would suspect its a fulltime job for more than one person to go in and regularly check what an accredited sites RTP's are, particularly as we know that there isnt really an appetite for any site to come on here and start shouting that they've lowered RTP's.
 

pinnit2014

Meister Member
PABnoaccred
mm1
Joined
Dec 13, 2014
Location
Glasgow and Home - N Ireland
Just caught up on this thread - what a piss take. I really don't know why reps, the one here and VS, set themselves up for a fall with 'we will always offer high RTPs' anyway because it's not something, unless they're the CEO, that they have control over anyhow - like now, it just makes them out to be naive, at best.

I will agree with Chopley though - Unibet are the gold standard of casinos at the moment (of course that can always change - see Betat) and why anyone would want to dump money in this casino here is beyond me.
 
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