TV Tonight - Why are Gambling Machines Addictive?

[spintee]

BBC1 8.30pm (U.K Time) (Panorama program)

Tonight:: Its about the FOB's in the bookies but could be interesting,

I have added a link but may not work for all

You do not have permission to view link Log in or register now.

 

[geordiecolin]

BBC1 8.30pm (U.K Time) (Panorama program)

Tonight:: Its about the FOB's in the bookies but could be interesting,

I have added a link but may not work for all

You do not have permission to view link Log in or register now.

The UK government are considering bringing in new legislation to limit the bet sizes and the quantity of terminals in every bookies but I wonder if it is just another move in order to gain a bigger slice of bookies profits and nothing becomes of it in the end?

 

[dunover]

I can give you the conclusions now, as I've seen many shows detailing the psychological effects of slots. In gambling terms they are like being hooked to continuous endorphins, administered instantly each press of the button. Unlike say the VTOS (voluntary tax on stupidity) aka the lottery and sports betting the buzz (result) is instant and therein lies the problem - the player gets in 'the zone' when playing and loses most rational thought, and the comedown afterwards is severe as they will have inevitably lost and thoughts of self-loathing etc. predominate.

The reduced stake never came in (this has been discussed for years now) due to the lobby of the bookies. As we know the UKGC will happily pissball about with autoplay functions on slots but is aware of and happily allows MAJOR loopholes in their RG rules.

Same old, same old you'll see tonight....

 

[jetset]

Seems to me the title of this program indicates a level of bias from the get-go.

By way of perspective, here's an interesting article that has recently been doing the media rounds.

You do not have permission to view link Log in or register now.

 

[Jono777]

I know our local bookie well enough that in a conversation only last week, she let me know how much a DAY these horrible machines take.

There are 4 units in our local Ladbrokes and the location of the shop is in a 50/50 environment, not major quiet but nowhere near town centre style 'traffic'.

If ONE shop is taking the figure she mentioned (or thereabouts) these things are here to stay and going nowhere!

Rules, reg, this, that and the other doesn't matter, its all down to one thing and one thing only, MONEY.

 

[geordiecolin]

Seems to me the title of this program indicates a level of bias from the get-go.

By way of perspective, here's an interesting article that has recently been doing the media rounds.

You do not have permission to view link Log in or register now.

Thank you for the link. It makes for very interesting reading.

"The £46 billion is another classic piece of misinformation, by the way. It is the amount gambled, not the amount spent. The amount spent (or ‘lost’ if you prefer) is just 3 per cent of that".
Those figures puts the problem into proper perspective. But I think that there should be some sort of control about how big an individual wager should be. Even if it is much lowered but the bookies can override the limit with technology for individual punters.

 

[dunover]

Thank you for the link. It makes for very interesting reading.

"The £46 billion is another classic piece of misinformation, by the way. It is the amount gambled, not the amount spent. The amount spent (or ‘lost’ if you prefer) is just 3 per cent of that".
Those figures puts the problem into proper perspective. But I think that there should be some sort of control about how big an individual wager should be. Even if it is much lowered but the bookies can override the limit with technology for individual punters.

The figure 3% of 46bn is 1.38bn. Add up profits of all the bookies/betting sites in 2015 and they far exceed 1.38bn. So this bloke is applying a basic calculation of TRTP across the betting industry to gross turnover and trying to be a smartarse and the result is total bollocks. He's swallowed the BS peddled by industry spokesmen.

 

[geordiecolin]

The figure 3% of 46bn is 1.38bn. Add up profits of all the bookies/betting sites in 2015 and they far exceed 1.38bn. So this bloke is applying a basic calculation of TRTP across the betting industry to gross turnover and trying to be a smartarse and the result is total bollocks. He's swallowed the BS peddled by industry spokesmen.

So I suspect that like most things the truth is somewhere in the middle?

 

[nikantw]

.... they will have inevitably lost and thoughts of self-loathing etc. predominate...

..... its all down to one thing and one thing only, MONEY.

It’s all about the money. If we care about addiction, we want to minimize the loss of money and therefore minimize the problem. So it all comes down to RTP, which in practical terms is how much money one will lose in a given amount of time with certain bet size. Bigger RTP smaller the problem, actually the improvement is almost exponential. In that front gambling should be virtually tax free, meaning only tax on net income for both players and companies. Because any other tax ends up lowering the RTP and therefor increase exponentially the negative impact to players lives.

I know this is never going to happen. But it is good to know what the right direction is. Closing the open market and imposing limits on bet size or daily loss, is just limiting our freedom and “pushing” people towards illegal solutions.

 

[Deeplay]

I dont play these infernal machines but know some that do and can see the havoc they cause for those who cant control themselves. And thats the problem with opposed to online gambling. The lack of player control. Example online you can limit deposits - tab or Se. And at some point SE in the UK will be for all casinos.

But in betting shops even though they have SE forms and so on in reality it does not work! Have seen countless times people who SE from say WHill on the high street which should then mean they are barred from all WH in the uk, simply walk to the next shop to continue gambling. The system in that way is broken. Its not actually the FOBTS themselves as gambling is gambling (even though they are crap machines with 500 JP limits etc)

So a total overhaul of the system is needed! Maybe a carding system that a punter needs to enter a shop. It will be interesting actually if the UKGC does go for the blanket SE next year what they will do with high street bookmakers. Surly they fall into the same category ? how will they ensure that I as joe Punter who does a SE at Ladrokes in Edinburgh cant gamble the next day at Ladbrokes in Penance ?

Bookies want no entry controls such as ID or account numbers. Why they are except from such rules when other forms of gambling such as Online casinos and LB casinos are not is a question that needs to be answered. Example where is WH KYC when I enter a betting shop ?

Its one rule for one and one rule for the other and sadly in this country Bookmakers hold sway because of the revenue they command the taxes they pay. And social responsibility is a remote 2nd after thought. So programs such as this are focussing on the wrong element its Not the FOBTS its the system which is broken and needs fixing asap!

One example finally my Uncle did an SE from WH 2 years ago in the center of the city , within 2 days he was back in WH on the outskirts of the town no one questioned him as he lost 2 grand on the FOBTS

 

[nikantw]

A good analogy about gambling legislation would be like this. Unprotected sex is dangerous, therefore a legislation is passed that every person that wants to have sex must first have sex with an old, ugly government official. Then he/she can proceed to have sex with the person they want. If they are lucky, because in some countries you can only have sex with the fat, ugly, old government official.

 

[conker]

Watched this last night and I have to say that the BBC did a good job in my opinion. It was presented by a woman who had lost her husband to addiction. She was searching for answers and met with other addicts as well as psychologists and ex gambling bosses. Quite funny to see the boss of the Hippodrome Casino going on about how addictive the bookies FOBT's were and how they should be banned. I am pretty sure he has electronic roulette machines in his casino - not sure how different these are (slightly slower maybe).

FOBT's bore the brunt of the critism in the show, nicknamed the crack cocaine of the gambling industry. Interesting to see that Paddy Power (which seemed to be a focus of the show) had 3 shops in one high street, increasing the number of machines they were allowed from 4 to 12.

The ABB (Association of British Bookmakers) declined to go on the show - pretty pathetic. Instead they sat in their Ivory tower and fended off any negative critism about FOBT's and harmful gambling with witten statements.

A few have commented about this being an unfair argument, but if the 'FOR' camp aren't even willing to turn up and argue, then what do we expect.

 

[spintee]

I seen the first 10 minutes and had to switch over, I admit I had a few beers by this time and what I heard was aload of bollox, I will play it and again than say what I think,

I did however here the bit about how much goes in and what comes out ? That alone should give an idea that the TRTP is bollox

 

[conker]

They had a mathmatician on the show, who seemed to have a bit of a gambling thing going on himself, he claimed the TRTP for the FOBT's was around 97%.

 

[spintee]

For any one that wants to whach the program

You do not have permission to view link Log in or register now.

so a 97.3% pay out, they took in 1.7 billion last year so I think that fair to say that is enough time for long term,

but they give the government 400 million just short of 25%, that alone tells you that something is not right, because after the governments share, that means the machine is already on a loss, thats around 76% payout before we start talking abot %

If some maths brain could do the sums I would be great full,

 

[Deeplay]

They had a mathmatician on the show, who seemed to have a bit of a gambling thing going on himself, he claimed the TRTP for the FOBT's was around 97%.

Yes but he also stated something really important and that was ....

yes sure 97% rtp but did not mean you get that and the time needed to realize the true return then it would take you out (or finish you off financially ) before you see that real return.

That was not his exact words but the way he said it made perfect sense.
This was one of the better documentary's on this issue and no wonder the big names and the Racing council declined to go on record for the program. The canned responses they gave were bullshit.

Felt for the lady in the program whos husband killed himself over his FOBT addiction.

Over all a decent program on a very difficult issue.

 

[conker]

Yes but he also stated something really important and that was ....

yes sure 97% rtp but did not mean you get that and the time needed to realize the true return then it would take you out (or finish you off financially ) before you see that real return.

Yeah, this guy knew his onions, however I do feel a lot of it would have gone over the head of viewers not overly aware of how games like this make their money. Funny that he mentioned that the last drawn numbers graphic in the game could be considered 'misleading' by giving some impression that some numbers were luckier than others. I have often seen players writing down numbers in the casino trying to see patterns that just aren't there. I think he mentioned it was called 'apophenia'

 

[Deeplay]

Yeah, this guy knew his onions, however I do feel a lot of it would have gone over the head of viewers not overly aware of how games like this make their money. Funny that he mentioned that the last drawn numbers graphic in the game could be considered 'misleading' by giving some impression that some numbers were luckier than others. I have often seen players writing down numbers in the casino trying to see patterns that just aren't there. I think he mentioned it was called 'apophenia'

Well on the numbers yes i get that and "apophenia" or what ever it was i was trying to remember that word lol

but lets also not forget some people many in fact DO gamble for fun entertainment and even though any sane person knows its mad to think there is a pattern with numbers
some find it fun to track and use it as a part of there own game play. I used to enjoy doing that when i played in LB casinos even though I knew it was bollocks it still felt
good when that "elusive" must come in soon number hit the right pocket on the wheel. So I dont feel this is actually cynical by the bookies as its also in LB casinos and has
been for years. He got that one wrong.

And in truth we all wanna see patterns ... like me with Twinspin i see em all the time - loosing ones ha ....

ah but i feel for the poor buggers caught up in such an addiction and it shows some Real education is needed for people to truly start to understand RTP - variance
and of course a robust RG approach which online seems to be now taking the lead.

Personally I have never felt safer than the past 2 years with my gambling with the likes of Video slots / Royalpanda etc who give the "click and control" back to the player.

The same is not true for the bookmakers.

 

[conker]

The same is not true for the bookmakers.

Well, before FOBT's arrived on the high street, bookies were in decline, and after their arrival 'Retail' has become one of the most profitable parts of their business. I think there are some clues as to how successful these machines are at making people part with their cash.

The addict in the program showed receipts from a session, where he was allowed to take out several transactions totalling over £3000 in a short space of time. How his bank didn't flag this as a potential fraud I don't know, but that does not seem responsible to me.

 

[Deeplay]

Well, before FOBT's arrived on the high street, bookies were in decline, and after their arrival 'Retail' has become one of the most profitable parts of their business. I think there are some clues as to how successful these machines are at making people part with their cash.

The addict in the program showed receipts from a session, where he was allowed to take out several transactions totalling over £3000 in a short space of time. How his bank didn't flag this as a potential fraud I don't know, but that does not seem responsible to me.

Agreed no limits what so ever. And the bookies in truth want it this way - the profits they make are incredible and keep in mind even though yes these machines pay out how many walk to the next shop to try there luck again. I wonder what % of that over all long term 97% actually gets withdrawn back into the economy and not back to the machines. But in the end comes down to education - making people aware - as I dont see the FOBTS being limited or removed anytime soon.

 

[Simmo!]

Real education is needed for people to truly start to understand RTP - variance
and of course a robust RG approach which online seems to be now taking the lead.

That is the key word for me - "variance". It is in everyone's best interests for a player to play a game at a level that suits their budget. The player will get more enjoyment and the bookie will see the player play for longer: they will lose the same money probably but over a longer period and without as many of the extreme emotions that underpin addiction.

 

[spintee]

That is the key word for me - "variance". It is in everyone's best interests for a player to play a game at a level that suits their budget. The player will get more enjoyment and the bookie will see the player play for longer: they will lose the same money probably but over a longer period and without as many of the extreme emotions that underpin addiction.

Thats the trouble, Bokie not bothered if people get no enjoyment, They want your cash ASAP and thats the end of it, Quiker the better, If your waiting 5 minutes for a bonus round like alot of theses new online games are doing, More of a computer game now days, Than the fobs would soon be gone along with 90% of the high street bookmakers

 

[nikantw]

... and it shows some Real education is needed for people to truly start to understand RTP - variance .....

100% true

 

[slotter999]

But in betting shops even though they have SE forms and so on in reality it does not work! Have seen countless times people who SE from say WHill on the high street which should then mean they are barred from all WH in the uk, simply walk to the next shop to continue gambling. The system in that way is broken. Its not actually the FOBTS themselves as gambling is gambling (even though they are crap machines with 500 JP limits etc)

So a total overhaul of the system is needed! Maybe a carding system that a punter needs to enter a shop. It will be interesting actually if the UKGC does go for the blanket SE next year what they will do with high street bookmakers. Surly they fall into the same category ? how will they ensure that I as joe Punter who does a SE at Ladrokes in Edinburgh cant gamble the next day at Ladbrokes in Penance ?

Bookies want no entry controls such as ID or account numbers.

I don't recall the name of the product but there is facial recognition software which is the gold standard employed by casinos worldwide to prevent unwanted people entering their establishments. Of course, the people they want to exclude are not problem gamblers but those who are either known cheats or advantage players like card counters.

So in the scenario you mention above I believe the tools are already available to implement SE in bookies and casinos based on facial recognition but it will only be applied if it provides them with an advantage which enforcing self exclusion clearly does not.

One of the things which I've always thought contributed to the explosion in machine gambling in bookies was the ability to be able to deposit using bank cards. The guy who lost 4.5k did so in just 4 card transactions. Imagine if you were on super tilt and had to keep going back to the bank to get another £1000 out in cash. When you're actually handling large bundles of cash I imagine the madness of the situation might feel a lot more real and as such you might be able to take back some control.

I don't believe online casinos are really any much better if I'm honest - the motivation is just to make money. Can anyone tell me a story where an online casinos stepped in and suspended, enforced a deposit limit on your account or something along those limes because they saw things were getting out of hand? That would surely be a responsible gambling policy. (It's a very general idea but hopefully you get my point).

Overall it's a pretty shitty problem and the bookies / casinos aren't going to do anything to help fix it.

 

[spintee]

Yeah, this guy knew his onions, however I do feel a lot of it would have gone over the head of viewers not overly aware of how games like this make their money. Funny that he mentioned that the last drawn numbers graphic in the game could be considered 'misleading' by giving some impression that some numbers were luckier than others. I have often seen players writing down numbers in the casino trying to see patterns that just aren't there. I think he mentioned it was called 'apophenia'

Thats a bloddy funny line mate, knew he's onions, I laughed yesterday when I seen it and still laughing now, I not heard that line for about 20 years lol,

I think that there was some conspiracy going on, As in the credits for the show it stated a chance of a win in every 20 seconds, Than abit later on in the show when he was on the roulette machine, He had a spin and stated it should take about 20 seconds? Albeit it took know where near 20 secounds

 

[slotter999]

I think that there was some conspiracy going on, As in the credits for the show it stated a chance of a win in every 20 seconds, Than abit later on in the show when he was on the roulette machine, He had a spin and stated it should take about 20 seconds? Albeit it took know where near 20 secounds

Poor use of words perhaps. The spins are rate limited so you can't spin more than once every 20 seconds. The wheel spinning animation exists to a.) give you the anticipation of yet another amazing miss b.) pad out that 20 second limit. Hardly a conspiracy.

 

[spintee]

Poor use of words perhaps. The spins are rate limited so you can't spin more than once every 20 seconds. The wheel spinning animation exists to a.) give you the anticipation of yet another amazing miss b.) pad out that 20 second limit. Hardly a conspiracy.

The conspiracy expired from what he said, at the start of the prgrom there was an over voive stating that there could be a posible win every 20 secounds, Later on the so called expert had a spin, I will not go into detail about what nubers he spun on but he stated IT WILL TAKE ABOUT 20 SECOUNDS, Now this maybe the case and takes 20 secounds but the spin he done did not take 20 secounds?

So the conspiracy theory is that they got that group together before the they started filming and to find out the facts or so called facts, One of them was a 20 seconds spin, Which was bought up in the film a number of times by different people,

we know more spins can be done in 20 secounds so it bull shit, Just like the RTP if it really is a 97.3% pay out ratio and they give the govevment near 25% of take ins, work that one out?

why open 3 shops in the same street to have more fobs? if the satsictis are real about 97.3% paypout than there losing cash and alot of it so you would of thought they would be closing shops and not opening one, They days of puting on a bet on a rce horse or dogs or even football are long gone, With all the internet etc, Its the fob offs that are making the cash

 

[conker]

Thats a bloddy funny line mate, knew he's onions, I laughed yesterday when I seen it and still laughing now, I not heard that line for about 20 years lol.

Glad you found it funny spintee, I thought when I wrote it that I don't use this expression very often. A very British saying, I imagine other non Brits figured it out though

 

[goatwack]

Watched this yesterday, thought they did a good job of getting the message across despite the usual Panorama running time restrictions. I felt that it probably deserved at least three hour-long parts to be discussed in greater depth.

As is expected, the Association of British Bookmakers showed themselves to be the immoral money--grabbing family- destroyers that they are, with their banal and ignorant stance on the damage FOBTs cause.

Most telling was their efforts to circumvent restrictions, such as having four FOBTs per bookies, but having three or four shops in one high street.

And I found the brief look into the effects of gambling on the brain quite fascinating too, and it did confirm my suspicion that the anticipation of winning is identical to the winning itself, which is what long-term gamblers condition their brain into doing.

This would explain why small wins don't cut the mustard like they used to years ago, and how we tolerate hours of stagnant gameplay without breaking a sweat, not to mention how some will disassociate money from reality and helplessly chase ever bigger wins, much like any drug.

Overall I quite enjoyed the show and found it a good watch

 

[spintee]

At the end of the day its all about cash, Gambler / drinker / smoker/ or a Driver as petrol/desiel has got the most tax,

They banned smoking from pubs, Thats ok as you can smoke one out side

banned a certain amount of machines from bookies thats ok just open a few more shops or go to casino lol

Closed of the cigerate counters at shopping places and major shops Like thats going to stop any one from buying a pack of cigs, Is not as if you go into a shop and go to pay for your shit and see a shelf full of smokes and say Orrr I try a pack of them,

Along with the health and saftey rubbish and fake coppers doing speeding tickets, Take a look at youtube, They employ a dodgy company with vans they have the police strips, Whitch in it self is against the law as imitating police

 

[goatwack]

Well I know that the UKGC are looking into the problem of FOBTs and are taking it really, really seriously.

Their answer has been to............
......
......
......limit autoplay to 100 spins max on online slots.

Good to see them tackle the real issues!

 

[Simmo!]

Can anyone tell me a story where an online casinos stepped in and suspended, enforced a deposit limit on your account or something along those limes because they saw things were getting out of hand? That would surely be a responsible gambling policy. (It's a very general idea but hopefully you get my point).

I've encountered that on two occasions through recent years: Bet365 and Sky both stopped taking deposits and asked me to run through a series of questions over the phone before they'd let me continue depositing. And this was after I had been KYC'ed.

 

[slotter999]

I've encountered that on two occasions through recent years: Bet365 and Sky both stopped taking deposits and asked me to run through a series of questions over the phone before they'd let me continue depositing. And this was after I had been KYC'ed.

That's interesting but the pessimist in me wonders what their motive was for doing that. Responsible gambling or something more aligned with fraud prevention or AML / KYC regulations. I suppose the questions they asked would give us a clue. But if it really was about responsible gambling then that's no bad thing in my opinion.

I did receive an email from grosvenor once asking me if I was comfortable with my level of betting after losing 1k on novomatic junk. I'm really not sure what they expected me to say or what they might have done had I answered in a negative fashion. It definitely had the feel of "going through a process" more than genuine concern about my gambling. But that is the single time I've ever had anything like that.