TV Tonight - Why are Gambling Machines Addictive?

spintee

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BBC1 8.30pm (U.K Time) (Panorama program)

Tonight:: Its about the FOB's in the bookies but could be interesting,

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geordiecolin

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BBC1 8.30pm (U.K Time) (Panorama program)

Tonight:: Its about the FOB's in the bookies but could be interesting,

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The UK government are considering bringing in new legislation to limit the bet sizes and the quantity of terminals in every bookies but I wonder if it is just another move in order to gain a bigger slice of bookies profits and nothing becomes of it in the end?
 

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I can give you the conclusions now, as I've seen many shows detailing the psychological effects of slots. In gambling terms they are like being hooked to continuous endorphins, administered instantly each press of the button. Unlike say the VTOS (voluntary tax on stupidity) aka the lottery and sports betting the buzz (result) is instant and therein lies the problem - the player gets in 'the zone' when playing and loses most rational thought, and the comedown afterwards is severe as they will have inevitably lost and thoughts of self-loathing etc. predominate.

The reduced stake never came in (this has been discussed for years now) due to the lobby of the bookies. As we know the UKGC will happily pissball about with autoplay functions on slots but is aware of and happily allows MAJOR loopholes in their RG rules.

Same old, same old you'll see tonight....:rolleyes:
 

jetset

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Seems to me the title of this program indicates a level of bias from the get-go.

By way of perspective, here's an interesting article that has recently been doing the media rounds.

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Jono777

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I know our local bookie well enough that in a conversation only last week, she let me know how much a DAY these horrible machines take.

There are 4 units in our local Ladbrokes and the location of the shop is in a 50/50 environment, not major quiet but nowhere near town centre style 'traffic'.

If ONE shop is taking the figure she mentioned (or thereabouts) these things are here to stay and going nowhere!

Rules, reg, this, that and the other doesn't matter, its all down to one thing and one thing only, MONEY.
 

geordiecolin

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Seems to me the title of this program indicates a level of bias from the get-go.

By way of perspective, here's an interesting article that has recently been doing the media rounds.

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Thank you for the link. It makes for very interesting reading.

"The £46 billion is another classic piece of misinformation, by the way. It is the amount gambled, not the amount spent. The amount spent (or ‘lost’ if you prefer) is just 3 per cent of that".
Those figures puts the problem into proper perspective. But I think that there should be some sort of control about how big an individual wager should be. Even if it is much lowered but the bookies can override the limit with technology for individual punters.
 

dunover

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Thank you for the link. It makes for very interesting reading.

"The £46 billion is another classic piece of misinformation, by the way. It is the amount gambled, not the amount spent. The amount spent (or ‘lost’ if you prefer) is just 3 per cent of that".
Those figures puts the problem into proper perspective. But I think that there should be some sort of control about how big an individual wager should be. Even if it is much lowered but the bookies can override the limit with technology for individual punters.

The figure 3% of 46bn is 1.38bn. Add up profits of all the bookies/betting sites in 2015 and they far exceed 1.38bn. So this bloke is applying a basic calculation of TRTP across the betting industry to gross turnover and trying to be a smartarse and the result is total bollocks. He's swallowed the BS peddled by industry spokesmen.:rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:
 

geordiecolin

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The figure 3% of 46bn is 1.38bn. Add up profits of all the bookies/betting sites in 2015 and they far exceed 1.38bn. So this bloke is applying a basic calculation of TRTP across the betting industry to gross turnover and trying to be a smartarse and the result is total bollocks. He's swallowed the BS peddled by industry spokesmen.:rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:

So I suspect that like most things the truth is somewhere in the middle?
 

nikantw

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.... they will have inevitably lost and thoughts of self-loathing etc. predominate...

..... its all down to one thing and one thing only, MONEY.

It’s all about the money. If we care about addiction, we want to minimize the loss of money and therefore minimize the problem. So it all comes down to RTP, which in practical terms is how much money one will lose in a given amount of time with certain bet size. Bigger RTP smaller the problem, actually the improvement is almost exponential. In that front gambling should be virtually tax free, meaning only tax on net income for both players and companies. Because any other tax ends up lowering the RTP and therefor increase exponentially the negative impact to players lives.

I know this is never going to happen. But it is good to know what the right direction is. Closing the open market and imposing limits on bet size or daily loss, is just limiting our freedom and “pushing” people towards illegal solutions.
 

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I dont play these infernal machines but know some that do and can see the havoc they cause for those who cant control themselves. And thats the problem with opposed to online gambling. The lack of player control. Example online you can limit deposits - tab or Se. And at some point SE in the UK will be for all casinos.

But in betting shops even though they have SE forms and so on in reality it does not work! Have seen countless times people who SE from say WHill on the high street which should then mean they are barred from all WH in the uk, simply walk to the next shop to continue gambling. The system in that way is broken. Its not actually the FOBTS themselves as gambling is gambling (even though they are crap machines with 500 JP limits etc)

So a total overhaul of the system is needed! Maybe a carding system that a punter needs to enter a shop. It will be interesting actually if the UKGC does go for the blanket SE next year what they will do with high street bookmakers. Surly they fall into the same category ? how will they ensure that I as joe Punter who does a SE at Ladrokes in Edinburgh cant gamble the next day at Ladbrokes in Penance ?

Bookies want no entry controls such as ID or account numbers. Why they are except from such rules when other forms of gambling such as Online casinos and LB casinos are not is a question that needs to be answered. Example where is WH KYC when I enter a betting shop ?

Its one rule for one and one rule for the other and sadly in this country Bookmakers hold sway because of the revenue they command the taxes they pay. And social responsibility is a remote 2nd after thought. So programs such as this are focussing on the wrong element its Not the FOBTS its the system which is broken and needs fixing asap!

One example finally my Uncle did an SE from WH 2 years ago in the center of the city , within 2 days he was back in WH on the outskirts of the town no one questioned him as he lost 2 grand on the FOBTS :mad:
 

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A good analogy about gambling legislation would be like this. Unprotected sex is dangerous, therefore a legislation is passed that every person that wants to have sex must first have sex with an old, ugly government official. Then he/she can proceed to have sex with the person they want. If they are lucky, because in some countries you can only have sex with the fat, ugly, old government official. :D:lolup:
 

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Watched this last night and I have to say that the BBC did a good job in my opinion. It was presented by a woman who had lost her husband to addiction. She was searching for answers and met with other addicts as well as psychologists and ex gambling bosses. Quite funny to see the boss of the Hippodrome Casino going on about how addictive the bookies FOBT's were and how they should be banned. I am pretty sure he has electronic roulette machines in his casino - not sure how different these are (slightly slower maybe).

FOBT's bore the brunt of the critism in the show, nicknamed the crack cocaine of the gambling industry. Interesting to see that Paddy Power (which seemed to be a focus of the show) had 3 shops in one high street, increasing the number of machines they were allowed from 4 to 12.

The ABB (Association of British Bookmakers) declined to go on the show - pretty pathetic. Instead they sat in their Ivory tower and fended off any negative critism about FOBT's and harmful gambling with witten statements.

A few have commented about this being an unfair argument, but if the 'FOR' camp aren't even willing to turn up and argue, then what do we expect.
 

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I seen the first 10 minutes and had to switch over, I admit I had a few beers by this time and what I heard was aload of bollox, I will play it and again than say what I think,

I did however here the bit about how much goes in and what comes out ? That alone should give an idea that the TRTP is bollox
 

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They had a mathmatician on the show, who seemed to have a bit of a gambling thing going on himself, he claimed the TRTP for the FOBT's was around 97%.
 

spintee

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so a 97.3% pay out, they took in 1.7 billion last year so I think that fair to say that is enough time for long term,

but they give the government 400 million just short of 25%, that alone tells you that something is not right, because after the governments share, that means the machine is already on a loss, thats around 76% payout before we start talking abot %

If some maths brain could do the sums I would be great full,
 

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They had a mathmatician on the show, who seemed to have a bit of a gambling thing going on himself, he claimed the TRTP for the FOBT's was around 97%.

Yes but he also stated something really important and that was ....

yes sure 97% rtp but did not mean you get that and the time needed to realize the true return then it would take you out (or finish you off financially ) before you see that real return.

That was not his exact words but the way he said it made perfect sense.
This was one of the better documentary's on this issue and no wonder the big names and the Racing council declined to go on record for the program. The canned responses they gave were bullshit.

Felt for the lady in the program whos husband killed himself over his FOBT addiction.

Over all a decent program on a very difficult issue.
 

conker

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Yes but he also stated something really important and that was ....

yes sure 97% rtp but did not mean you get that and the time needed to realize the true return then it would take you out (or finish you off financially ) before you see that real return.

Yeah, this guy knew his onions, however I do feel a lot of it would have gone over the head of viewers not overly aware of how games like this make their money. Funny that he mentioned that the last drawn numbers graphic in the game could be considered 'misleading' by giving some impression that some numbers were luckier than others. I have often seen players writing down numbers in the casino trying to see patterns that just aren't there. I think he mentioned it was called 'apophenia'
 

Deeplay

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Yeah, this guy knew his onions, however I do feel a lot of it would have gone over the head of viewers not overly aware of how games like this make their money. Funny that he mentioned that the last drawn numbers graphic in the game could be considered 'misleading' by giving some impression that some numbers were luckier than others. I have often seen players writing down numbers in the casino trying to see patterns that just aren't there. I think he mentioned it was called 'apophenia'

Well on the numbers yes i get that and "apophenia" or what ever it was i was trying to remember that word lol

but lets also not forget some people many in fact DO gamble for fun entertainment and even though any sane person knows its mad to think there is a pattern with numbers
some find it fun to track and use it as a part of there own game play. I used to enjoy doing that when i played in LB casinos even though I knew it was bollocks it still felt
good when that "elusive" must come in soon number hit the right pocket on the wheel. So I dont feel this is actually cynical by the bookies as its also in LB casinos and has
been for years. He got that one wrong.

And in truth we all wanna see patterns ... like me with Twinspin i see em all the time - loosing ones ha ....

ah but i feel for the poor buggers caught up in such an addiction and it shows some Real education is needed for people to truly start to understand RTP - variance
and of course a robust RG approach which online seems to be now taking the lead.

Personally I have never felt safer than the past 2 years with my gambling with the likes of Video slots / Royalpanda etc who give the "click and control" back to the player.

The same is not true for the bookmakers.
 

conker

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The same is not true for the bookmakers.

Well, before FOBT's arrived on the high street, bookies were in decline, and after their arrival 'Retail' has become one of the most profitable parts of their business. I think there are some clues as to how successful these machines are at making people part with their cash.

The addict in the program showed receipts from a session, where he was allowed to take out several transactions totalling over £3000 in a short space of time. How his bank didn't flag this as a potential fraud I don't know, but that does not seem responsible to me.
 

Deeplay

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Well, before FOBT's arrived on the high street, bookies were in decline, and after their arrival 'Retail' has become one of the most profitable parts of their business. I think there are some clues as to how successful these machines are at making people part with their cash.

The addict in the program showed receipts from a session, where he was allowed to take out several transactions totalling over £3000 in a short space of time. How his bank didn't flag this as a potential fraud I don't know, but that does not seem responsible to me.

Agreed no limits what so ever. And the bookies in truth want it this way - the profits they make are incredible and keep in mind even though yes these machines pay out how many walk to the next shop to try there luck again. I wonder what % of that over all long term 97% actually gets withdrawn back into the economy and not back to the machines. But in the end comes down to education - making people aware - as I dont see the FOBTS being limited or removed anytime soon.
 
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