Thrills - Max Bet on Bonuses very low??

[Tirilej]

I've notified their rep Erik about this thread.

I'm sure he'll just love to come in and explain their thoughts behind this rule

 

[Finn]

So, if you spin Munchins at more than £1.50, you had fraudulent intentions right from the start, as the average player would instinctively play within the boundaries.

electronictonic got into trouble for doing 5 pound spins when 4 pound was the limit.

Many casinos have stupid stuff in their Terms and conditions that never gets actually enforced. There hasn't been any player report of this 0.1 bet line limit being enforced in the most draconian way. Since Thrills is mainly NetEnt casino, and NetEnt games are 90% 25 lines or under, if it was actually enforced, there would be a lot of whining.

1.2 pound/euro/dollar Starburst spin would be over this limit in theory, but we have yet not heard of a single instance of this rule being enforced in such a stupid way.

 

[vinylweatherman]

electronictonic got into trouble for doing 5 pound spins when 4 pound was the limit.

Many casinos have stupid stuff in their Terms and conditions that never gets actually enforced. There hasn't been any player report of this 0.1 bet line limit being enforced in the most draconian way. Since Thrills is mainly NetEnt casino, and NetEnt games are 90% 25 lines or under, if it was actually enforced, there would be a lot of whining.

1.2 pound/euro/dollar Starburst spin would be over this limit in theory, but we have yet not heard of a single instance of this rule being enforced in such a stupid way.

Well, this is also pretty minor, so if they make a fuss over a £5 spin, they will probably make a fuss over 12p per line too.

I can understand the problem because the line limit is set in "credits", and is always 0.1, yet the spin limit depends on the currency used to register the account, so you can spin 5 credits and 0.1 per line in one currency, but not in another.

5.0 per spin is STILL a valid limit in two of the three currencies, so is hardly a "major" breach, just like betting 0.12 per line isn't a "major breach".

If there have been so few complaints, and from the posts of others, it looks like they pick and choose on whom to enforce this term, rather than it being enforced across the board as written.

It may be that enforcement is much stricter for new players, but existing players are often given a pass. The problem is that at any time they can choose to enforce it on an existing player who has previously played and been paid in complete ignorance of the fact that they are routinely exceeding this limit, which means they can make unfair use of it in order to avoid paying out too much to regular players who end up getting one of those rare super lucky runs whilst routinely going over the limits that previously got overlooked by the casino when their wins were smaller.

 

[Tirilej]

Well, this is also pretty minor, so if they make a fuss over a £5 spin, they will probably make a fuss over 12p per line too.

I can understand the problem because the line limit is set in "credits", and is always 0.1, yet the spin limit depends on the currency used to register the account, so you can spin 5 credits and 0.1 per line in one currency, but not in another.

5.0 per spin is STILL a valid limit in two of the three currencies, so is hardly a "major" breach, just like betting 0.12 per line isn't a "major breach".

If there have been so few complaints, and from the posts of others, it looks like they pick and choose on whom to enforce this term, rather than it being enforced across the board as written.

It may be that enforcement is much stricter for new players, but existing players are often given a pass. The problem is that at any time they can choose to enforce it on an existing player who has previously played and been paid in complete ignorance of the fact that they are routinely exceeding this limit, which means they can make unfair use of it in order to avoid paying out too much to regular players who end up getting one of those rare super lucky runs whilst routinely going over the limits that previously got overlooked by the casino when their wins were smaller.

They could but I doubt that they would. They are not one of those casinos that are using the rules just because they don't want to pay. If they were there would have been complaints.
He who mentioned that his cashout was denied didn't complain either, and we don't really know what happened.

It is a good casino so there is no need to speculate until Erik have explained

 

[Finn]

Well, this is also pretty minor, so if they make a fuss over a £5 spin, they will probably make a fuss over 12p per line too.

I can understand the problem because the line limit is set in "credits", and is always 0.1, yet the spin limit depends on the currency used to register the account, so you can spin 5 credits and 0.1 per line in one currency, but not in another.

5.0 per spin is STILL a valid limit in two of the three currencies, so is hardly a "major" breach, just like betting 0.12 per line isn't a "major breach".

If you allow any constant breach of the absolute bet limit, that becomes the new defacto bet limit, and then people betting 5.1-5.5 pound would be crying how unfair it is to punish them for such a minor breach. I don't think any casino allows constant breach of the absolute bet limit, many casinos have numerically different but currency rate wise roughly equivalent bet limits, whether it is 4 pound/5 euro, 6 pound/7.5 euro, etc. I doubt "oops, I looked at the number next to it" excuse would save you in any of those casinos.

 

[3jokers]

For what it's worth, I made very large bets with bonus money on slots and didn't have any problem withdrawing winnings after the bonus was wagered, just like on any other NetEnt casino.

 

[vinylweatherman]

For what it's worth, I made very large bets with bonus money on slots and didn't have any problem withdrawing winnings after the bonus was wagered, just like on any other NetEnt casino.

More than these limits?

If so, the reason there are few complaints is that the rule is a "pick & choose who we enforce it on". It would appear that this rule is news to quite a few players who have been playing how they usually play, and breaching this rule on a regular basis, but getting paid in any case.

It looks very much like they are using this as a "spirit of the bonus rule", but disguising it as an absolute rule that all players are supposed to be following else they get into trouble.

 

[Tirilej]

More than these limits?

If so, the reason there are few complaints is that the rule is a "pick & choose who we enforce it on". It would appear that this rule is news to quite a few players who have been playing how they usually play, and breaching this rule on a regular basis, but getting paid in any case.

It looks very much like they are using this as a "spirit of the bonus rule", but disguising it as an absolute rule that all players are supposed to be following else they get into trouble.

No it's not. I didn't want you to scream even louder than you already do so I haven't told that it's different rules depending on whitch country you are from.
He is from Sweden. We don't have the same limits.

Now remember that they as well could have had higher wagering for some countries instead but I don't think they have that.
It's their choice. Still you haven't seen any complaints or?

 

[vinylweatherman]

No it's not. I didn't want you to scream even louder than you already do so I haven't told that it's different rules depending on whitch country you are from.
He is from Sweden. We don't have the same limits.

Now remember that they as well could have had higher wagering for some countries instead but I don't think they have that.
It's their choice. Still you haven't seen any complaints or?

That's rather odd. Most casinos think players from Sweden are among the worst for "bonus abuse".

They have already used different limits according to currency in that term, so surely they have it covered anyway. If playing in Dollars, the limit is $6, which is 50% higher than the limit for the Pound (remember, currency is irrelevant once it's been turned into credits, the games don't care what 6.0 was in terms of world currency before it got into the casino, it's a bet with 50% more leverage in variance terms than one of 4.0).

 

[Tirilej]

That's rather odd. Most casinos think players from Sweden are among the worst for "bonus abuse".

Oh...you have to remember that many of these casinos are started by Swedish people. We probably trust eachother

 

[vinylweatherman]

Oh...you have to remember that many of these casinos are started by Swedish people. We probably trust eachother

They don't trust the Swiss though

As for the UK. The main question is whether they are getting a licence, because if not we only have another 9 days to worry about the £4 and 10p limits

 

[Erik]

Clarification

Hi All

I have read through the thread and sorry i didnt jump in sooner to shed some light on the matter.

The Rule of the max bet of 0.1€/$/£ we added when we got hit by a wave of abusers in our early days, and was put there as a protection if we would be hit by similar abuse method again. We tried to limit the impact of the term aswell so it was only added to the first deposit bonus, and not to any other bonuses.
This is however a rule we almost never ever enforce for the simple reason that 99.9% of the players who breaks this terms are not abusers.

However with that said I fully understand why this term might scare some players of and the fact that we "don't enforce it" is not the same as it not being there, and there fore I have booked a meeting with the casino managers tomorrow to discuss what we can do with this term.

At Thrills and our sister casino Superlenny we are trying to be as straight forward and fair as possible. We have no intention of making it unnecessarily complicated for the players just so that they will fail on the T&C, quite the opposite to honest. We try to make it clear so that all players can enjoy our services with as few speed bumps as possible. Thats also why Im glad that you guy raise issues like this here at CM so we can take that feedback and hopefully improve our product for you.

I will comeback tomorrow with more info after I have talked to the casino Team

Regards
Erik

 

[vinylweatherman]

Hi All

I have read through the thread and sorry i didnt jump in sooner to shed some light on the matter.

The Rule of the max bet of 0.1€/$/£ we added when we got hit by a wave of abusers in our early days, and was put there as a protection if we would be hit by similar abuse method again. We tried to limit the impact of the term aswell so it was only added to the first deposit bonus, and not to any other bonuses.
This is however a rule we almost never ever enforce for the simple reason that 99.9% of the players who breaks this terms are not abusers.

However with that said I fully understand why this term might scare some players of and the fact that we "don't enforce it" is not the same as it not being there, and there fore I have booked a meeting with the casino managers tomorrow to discuss what we can do with this term.

At Thrills and our sister casino Superlenny we are trying to be as straight forward and fair as possible. We have no intention of making it unnecessarily complicated for the players just so that they will fail on the T&C, quite the opposite to honest. We try to make it clear so that all players can enjoy our services with as few speed bumps as possible. Thats also why Im glad that you guy raise issues like this here at CM so we can take that feedback and hopefully improve our product for you.

I will comeback tomorrow with more info after I have talked to the casino Team

Regards
Erik

This explains why there are so few complaints despite the rule being so tight that the majority of new players probably break it by accident.


There is, however, the UK player who found the rule WAS enforced for a £5 bet instead of £4, even though such a level would have been fine in any other currency, even if the rule were similarly enforced.

The term as quoted doesn't seem to say anything about it only applying to the welcome bonus, so a player who reads the terms before registering may be deterred completely by such a draconian restriction, given that most other sites have a much more sensible restriction that even allows for high rollers betting 25% or so of their bonus in a single bet.

 

[spintee]

Difrent rules with dif types of bonus, I took a 30% at lennys the other day, Would nether take a 30% but there was some free spins involved and only small deposit, Rules for this was

In the interest of fair play the maximum bet allowed when playing with an active bonus is 200kr/€20/£20/$25

 

[hoff1985]

Hi All I have read through the thread and sorry i didnt jump in sooner to shed some light on the matter. The Rule of the max bet of 0.1€/$/£ we added when we got hit by a wave of abusers in our early days, and was put there as a protection if we would be hit by similar abuse method again. We tried to limit the impact of the term aswell so it was only added to the first deposit bonus, and not to any other bonuses. This is however a rule we almost never ever enforce for the simple reason that 99.9% of the players who breaks this terms are not abusers. However with that said I fully understand why this term might scare some players of and the fact that we "don't enforce it" is not the same as it not being there, and there fore I have booked a meeting with the casino managers tomorrow to discuss what we can do with this term. At Thrills and our sister casino Superlenny we are trying to be as straight forward and fair as possible. We have no intention of making it unnecessarily complicated for the players just so that they will fail on the T&C, quite the opposite to honest. We try to make it clear so that all players can enjoy our services with as few speed bumps as possible. Thats also why Im glad that you guy raise issues like this here at CM so we can take that feedback and hopefully improve our product for you. I will comeback tomorrow with more info after I have talked to the casino Team Regards Erik

but superlenny doesn't habe the 0.1$ rule or am i wrong?

 

[Tirilej]

but superlenny doesn't habe the 0.1$ rule or am i wrong?

It's there too. If you read the last two pages in their thread you see the same discussion.
That's how I found out when reading the rules in my own language and talked to support.

But like Erik says, no need to worry, or wait until he comes back with and update.

 

[Erik]

Term Removed

Hi

We took the decision today to remove the Term and we will keep monitoring in case we get hit by abuse again. So for now going forward there is no per line max bet, it is just the standard max bet Terms that apply.

Thanks again for giving us this feedback and dont hesitate to PM me or post in this thread.

Regards
Erik

 

[vinylweatherman]

Hi

We took the decision today to remove the Term and we will keep monitoring in case we get hit by abuse again. So for now going forward there is no per line max bet, it is just the standard max bet Terms that apply.

Thanks again for giving us this feedback and dont hesitate to PM me or post in this thread.

Regards
Erik

Is that still the £4/€5/$6 mix as this can also confuse players as one plays in "credits" at a casino, and the games don't care what currency they represent. It just looks odd that a 5 credit spin when made by a Brit is "abuse", yet play in Euros and Dollars, and it's considered the action of a "normal player". It's a myth that players like me using the UK Pound think in terms of absolute currency value when deciding what amount in credits to bet. I find that when playing some casinos in Pounds, and a few "legacy" accounts from when only the Dollar was supported by the software, I do not bet more in a Dollar account because I know that in absolute terms it's a lower bet that I would usually make. To me, it's just credits, and usually everything is in credits, even the limits on bonuses (for example, it might be a 100 deposit for a 100 bonus in pounds, but it would be the same in dollars; I would not get more by depositing the equivalent of £100 in dollars, such as $160 for $160, from the same offer).

Now, if you are not going to stay in the UK market, you may as well get rid of the UK Pound as a supported currency altogether. Most casinos do not like non UK players choosing the Pound as it's often the case that they are trying to maximise the absolute value of the welcome bonus with the intent of only playing the once win or lose. A player intending to stick around would not normally choose to lumber themselves with exchange rate penalties for every future deposit and withdrawal if their own currency is available. I would always choose the UK pound now when signing up. If it's not an option, it acts as a barrier to be signing up as I know I will get shaved a couple of percent off every transaction by the banks and processors.

If it's only for the welcome bonus, it needs to be clear so that players don't think that EVERY bonus is so restricted, and thus decide not to bother registering in favour of a casino with something along the lines of a 25% of bonus max bet rule on all bonuses.

 

[rainmaker]

Is that still the £4/€5/$6 mix as this can also confuse players as one plays in "credits" at a casino, and the games don't care what currency they represent.

C'mon VWM - not sure what the case is with download casinos these days (as they tend to be very old fashioned), but most instant games (like Immortal Romance below) clearly states which currency you are playing in, so this rule should not be a problem at all.

Now, if you are not going to stay in the UK market,

Betit Operations (Thrills and SuperLenny) has applied for a UK license - you should check them out. Great casinos

 

[vinylweatherman]

C'mon VWM - not sure what the case is with download casinos these days (as they tend to be very old fashioned), but most instant games (like Immortal Romance below) clearly states which currency you are playing in, so this rule should not be a problem at all.

View attachment 49473




Betit Operations (Thrills and SuperLenny) has applied for a UK license - you should check them out. Great casinos

They display the currencies, but it makes no difference to the RNG, so it should be a flat amount regardless of currency. It WAS a flat amount when it came to the line bet limit, so the argument is accepted in one case, but not the other.

It is of course good that they are intending to stay with UK players, as we will have less choice than before, and many of my favourite MGS downloads are not sticking around, but migrating players to a very small number of remaining MGS downloads. I can't see multiple accounts being tolerated (for long), so I expect my active accounts to shrink in numerical terms, which does mean that from next month (when things have become clear) I will be looking again at the browser based casinos to see if things have improved since my last less than impressive experiences (lag, disconnects, etc - along with the "only available on download" next to various offers and events).

If the rule only applies on the welcome bonus, then it is much less of a problem because I tend to view the welcome bonus as "sacrificial", as winning from them tends to increase the risk of being classified as a "bonus seeker/abuser". This is from my own personal experience of winning off welcome bonuses a few times when I first started to play.

 

[rainmaker]

...many of my favourite MGS downloads are not sticking around, but migrating players to a very small number of remaining MGS downloads.

Yes, it is quite strange to see how many MGS downloads that are closing for UK players.

It is almost the opposite with NetEnt/Quickfire casinos where it seems like "everyone" has applied for a UK license (at least those big reputable casinos I play at).

Vera&John, Guts, ComeOn, Mr Green, LeoVegas, Thrills, SuperLenny to mention some (+ a bunch of Betsson casinos as well most likely).

 

[vinylweatherman]

Yes, it is quite strange to see how many MGS downloads that are closing for UK players.

It is almost the opposite with NetEnt/Quickfire casinos where it seems like "everyone" has applied for a UK license (at least those big reputable casinos I play at).

Vera&John, Guts, ComeOn, Mr Green, LeoVegas, Thrills, SuperLenny to mention some (+ a bunch of Betsson casinos as well most likely).

I still have plenty of MGS downloads left, mostly Casino Rewards

I have just discovered a completely new one, Spin Casino. It has the same logo as "Spin Palace", but it appears to be a new casino from Betway. It's importance is that from tomorrow, I will have at least one account there, migrated from All Slots.

It's confusing though using the same logo and similar name to Spin Palace, and I do still wonder if there is something going on behind the scenes, such as this merely being a Spin Palace white label designed specifically for migrated UK players. If so, my old Spin Palace details should work as well as any migrated accounts.

 

[Finn]

They display the currencies, but it makes no difference to the RNG, so it should be a flat amount regardless of currency. It WAS a flat amount when it came to the line bet limit, so the argument is accepted in one case, but not the other.

Uhm, as it has been already pointed out in this thread, the line bet rule wasn't based on some reasoning based RNG, but it was just overkill rule that was only enforced on abusers.

Let's take for an example a bonus of 100% of up to 200 euro/pounds.

Player A deposits 200 euro.

Player B deposits 157 pounds.

Now if the max bet is 4 pounds/5 euro, both player A and B have the same deposit, same bonus and effectively same max bet size limits (157 pound = 200 euro, 4 pound = 5.1 euro).

Now if the max bet would be 5 pounds/5 euro, player B has bigger bet size limit eventhough both deposited the same and got the same bonus, so you could argue that 4 pound/ 5 euro is much more fair that 5 pound/ 5 euro limits.

 

[vinylweatherman]

Uhm, as it has been already pointed out in this thread, the line bet rule wasn't based on some reasoning based RNG, but it was just overkill rule that was only enforced on abusers.

Let's take for an example a bonus of 100% of up to 200 euro/pounds.

Player A deposits 200 euro.

Player B deposits 157 pounds.

Now if the max bet is 4 pounds/5 euro, both player A and B have the same deposit, same bonus and effectively same max bet size limits (157 pound = 200 euro, 4 pound = 5.1 euro).

Now if the max bet would be 5 pounds/5 euro, player B has bigger bet size limit eventhough both deposited the same and got the same bonus, so you could argue that 4 pound/ 5 euro is much more fair that 5 pound/ 5 euro limits.

Player A could just as easily deposit 157 Euro. Player B could just as easily deposit £200

The argument fails because bonuses are not driven by currency, but by absolute amounts in credits.

I don't think a UK player would deposit in odd increments just because they were playing in Pounds, I certainly don't.

I have played in pounds and dollars, and I deposit in "round numbers" no matter what the currency is. I usually round to the nearest £100, but I also round to the nearest $100 if that's the currency of play.

The rule as it stood was not particularly effective either, as smaller deposits could be "abused better" as the smaller the deposit, the larger in proportion was the permitted max bet.

For example:-

two "bonus abusers", one plays in Euro, the other in pounds.

The Euro player deposits 100 for 100 bonus, and is constrained to a €5 max bet.
The Pound player is rather smarter, and decides to deposit only £50, but can still make a £4 bet.

By depositing £50, the UK player has only half the WR of the Euro player, but his max bet is higher in proportion to his total bankroll than that of the Euro player. Any AP strategy therefore has a better chance of getting him past the WR and into profit.

If he deposits a mere £25, his session is shorter, but his chances of profit are greater still. The other £75 is used for three further attempts. Most casinos will offer further 100% boni to players that lose the welcome bonus whilst sticking to the rules.

 

[Finn]

Player A could just as easily deposit 157 Euro. Player B could just as easily deposit £200

The argument fails because bonuses are not driven by currency, but by absolute amounts in credits.

I don't think a UK player would deposit in odd increments just because they were playing in Pounds, I certainly don't.

I have played in pounds and dollars, and I deposit in "round numbers" no matter what the currency is. I usually round to the nearest £100, but I also round to the nearest $100 if that's the currency of play.

The rule as it stood was not particularly effective either, as smaller deposits could be "abused better" as the smaller the deposit, the larger in proportion was the permitted max bet.

When the max bet is proportional to the deposit size, then it is fine to think in credits, but since the max bet is static, you need to take into account the currency.

Here are couple examples, the more fair option is bolded

Static max bet

4 pound / 5 euro

5 pound / 5 euro

Max bet proportional to deposit

Max bet 25% of deposit for euro players, 20% for people playing in pounds

Max bet 25% of deposit for all

Just because pound players have option to get bigger deposit bonuses, doesn't mean that they should get higher max bet when the max bet is static. Nothing forces that pound player to take the full welcome bonus of 200 pound, he could just take 150 or 160 pound bonus that would be pretty close to 200 euro bonus and have same max bet as the people playing in euros with 200 euro bonus.


Of course you are free to dislike static max bets, but 3 of the Casinomeister top 6 casinos have static max bet in 5-8 euro range, as do many other well respected accredited casinos. So many people don't have any issues with static max bets.