Think slots are rigged? Read this first...

[goatwack]

Is she locked in love now?

I always preferred Locknload

 

[labeled]

What if I don't think the games are "rigged," but the individual rtp is controllable? Because I recently stopped playing at a place where I'm pretty sure that's what's happening. And no, without access to every players game play, how would I prove that? It is impossible to prove or disprove.

They are "licensed" under that dodgy 8048/JAM-whatever the hell Curacao sub-sub-sub-license and are US facing. So.. NO regulation.

They've branded themselves as completely "different" in that it's "casual gaming," where the focus is supposedly community fun.

They are a unique software provider. There are only two casinos using their software. (I am unsure if reddice.be just uses the software or is run by the same people. That casino does hold a license from Belgium and is in strict compliance there.)

They may or may not have dismantled their affiliate program. A quick search shows them black-listed or rogued at other sites for affiliate or compliance issues.

ETA: They have very few employees, I highly doubt any who've left would give two damns about coming here and confirming/denying, or engaging at all, to be blunt because non-disclosure-agreements are a real thing.

Etc, etc.

 

[Sasukdcf]

I've said this before but here I go again. Over the years I've heard this theory about higher stakes paying less countless times but a funny detail is that depending on who's telling the story the stakes are always different. Someone who usually plays on 20p stakes might be saying they never ever hit anything big on 80p-1€ bets and another one who's usually playing those stakes will complain how they never hit anything when playing above 2€ bet. Then you have the people playing with 5€ bets complaining about the same thing when choosing to go with 10-20€ bets. So what's the magic stake where the games still payout big and what's the cutoff for when it rarely happens anymore? If the answer is different based on who you ask then the quite obvious answer is there is none. Most people have a range of bets they usually stick to while occasionally going for higher bets. How is it in any way surprising that you will see less if any big wins on those higher stakes that you play less often and probably for a smaller amount of spins? Even if you don't the odds for those massive wins are so incredibly low it's pretty stupid to draw any conclusions from the circumstances of those wins. Might be for example you hit all your big wins when playing around midnight and never when you play in the morning. Does that mean the slots are more likely to pay in the evening? Probably not.

I totally get what you are saying but you are also not giving any credence to the points that I raised.... just a general over view of “ people “

I would like to think I am a little more experienced and pragmatic than some people and if you read careful I did make the point that I am aware my higher stakes play is lower than my mid range play however not to the point of how the statistics add up....

An example and I only have the one sadly.. so on it’s own doesn’t prove anything but does somewhat re-enforce my point... I played bonanza once and was bouncing off the walls when very quickly I hit the feature with 6 golds on £20 spin... it’s the only time I have done that on any stake! So 22 starting spins..

First spin I hit a repeat so now having had some fab wins hitting 5 symbols ( and I have to say experience shows hitting 5 is pretty reliable and netting some decent results )

So sitting pretty with 26 spins trying to dream what the best I could get from this...

Result £880

And this seems to be the theme
Yes it’s a nice win and on this occasion I hit it early and was in good profit..

But in reality I would find it hard to believe that if someone hit the same board on £2 spin they would nett £88

I could feel off 4 or 5 instances very similar to this on different games...

What I can’t do is give an example of when it goes the other way which itself is the fundamental issue...

 

[Sasukdcf]

^^^ 100% incorrect on increasing stake - on most games (i say most because there may be some - The Sky's The Limit is one i can think of that does change as you stake up) the stake is irrelevant.

So it’s all very well saying that because you are from the “ other side “ as well as a player...

And I’m aware you wrote the sky is the limit and therefore have carnal knowledge of it, however I would ask for a little more substance to your comment “ stake is irrelevant “ in relation to my comments and experience...

“ just unlucky “ gets a little boring after a while !!

 

[Buffalo Bill]

It's because slots use pseudo random rng to get their results its never truly random.
Having said that, who wants every session to be 96% rtp? certainly not me. I will happily lose 10 deposits in a row at 60%rtp then have a session with 500%+ which does happen.
If it wasn't possible to lose then it would be impossible to win.

 

[trancemonkey]

I totally get what you are saying but you are also not giving any credence to the points that I raised.... just a general over view of “ people “

I would like to think I am a little more experienced and pragmatic than some people and if you read careful I did make the point that I am aware my higher stakes play is lower than my mid range play however not to the point of how the statistics add up....

An example and I only have the one sadly.. so on it’s own doesn’t prove anything but does somewhat re-enforce my point... I played bonanza once and was bouncing off the walls when very quickly I hit the feature with 6 golds on £20 spin... it’s the only time I have done that on any stake! So 22 starting spins..

First spin I hit a repeat so now having had some fab wins hitting 5 symbols ( and I have to say experience shows hitting 5 is pretty reliable and netting some decent results )

So sitting pretty with 26 spins trying to dream what the best I could get from this...

Result £880

And this seems to be the theme
Yes it’s a nice win and on this occasion I hit it early and was in good profit..

But in reality I would find it hard to believe that if someone hit the same board on £2 spin they would nett £88

I could feel off 4 or 5 instances very similar to this on different games...

What I can’t do is give an example of when it goes the other way which itself is the fundamental issue...

So how do you explain what happens to players who are regularly betting at those stakes? And there are a lot of them...

Look, you don't have to believe me, but think of it like this...

Why would we go out of our way to keep the low rollers happy and piss off the high rollers? The bulk of money casinos make comes from a very small subset of people who stake very high.

But what you're saying is that we somehow decide to piss those people off by giving them worse experiences? I mean that just makes no logical sense at all.

In some land based games (check out FOBTs as an example) the RTP increases as you stake up. This is more common place.

What we certainly don't do is make it worse as you stake up...

 

[Sasukdcf]

Again I get what you are saying... but giving me some credit that I’m talking from vast experience... give me a valid reason why my experience is “ as such” other than 15 years of bad luck...:

If you are asking me why it would be skewed that way then one theory would be ( and if I recall correctly you actually alluded to this regarding sky is the limit ) the games can be skewed to minimise the exposure to the casino on higher stakes.....

It’s not hard to write in a change in variance as stake increases ... it’s all just math and you can do so without altering the RTP

As for FOBT I don’t realky play them anymore but yes I know what you are saying regarding the rtp changing as the stake increases however they are different to online based games so seems a little irrelevant other than it shows it’s easy enough to alter results based on stake....

 

[Sasukdcf]

Just to be clear here then...

Let’s say we ran an experiment

1000 people playing a game let’s say bonanza at £1 stake

1000 people playing it at £10 stake

And you play until you hit a 1000x plus win.

So your theory would suggest that after say 5 hours as an example a roughly equal number from each group would be “ sitting out “

 

[trancemonkey]

Just to be clear here then...

Let’s say we ran an experiment

1000 people playing a game let’s say bonanza at £1 stake

1000 people playing it at £10 stake

And you play until you hit a 1000x plus win.

So your theory would suggest that after say 5 hours as an example a roughly equal number from each group would be “ sitting out “

Correct.. of course it would be equal. That's statistics.

And yes it's true that we "could alter the variance as you staked up. But each new set of maths requires testing, tuning, homolgating. It's not quick and cheap to do.
Plus you still haven't given me one good reason why we would make it worse for the high rollers... You know, the ones that basically keep us all in a job.

And I didn't allude to anything about "the sky's the limit" other than that they changed the RTP as you staked up.

Also, if you want to do points scoring, I'll match, and beat, your fifteen years of playing with my 24 years of playing, and 20 years of making games.

 

[IM_SPORTS]

Dont really understand the point of this thread

You are a games producer of course you are going to say slots are not rigged

So you just give a list of why you think slots are not rigged

and that's the thread? hmm ok.

Well providers make their money from customers losses right?
the casino takes a share of the losses and so does the provider.

You don't mention that.

 

[dionysus]

Dont really understand the point of this thread

You are a games producer of course you are going to say slots are not rigged

So you just give a list of why you think slots are not rigged

and that's the thread? hmm ok.

Well providers make their money from customers losses right?
the casino takes a share of the losses and so does the provider.

You don't mention that.

but they make money without having to rig the games regardless
and seeing as trance isnt promoting one company over another, hes nothing to gain by giving mistruths

 

[goatwack]

but they make money without having to rig the games regardless
and seeing as trance isnt promoting one company over another, hes nothing to gain by giving mistruths

So you're saying he's giving mistruths?!?

I'm telling

 

[trancemonkey]

Dont really understand the point of this thread

You are a games producer of course you are going to say slots are not rigged

So you just give a list of why you think slots are not rigged

and that's the thread? hmm ok.

Well providers make their money from customers losses right?
the casino takes a share of the losses and so does the provider.

You don't mention that.

I didn't mention that because that is something I would have thought people know. There is no conspiracy in the fact that casinos operate with the margin they get from the games - I.e approx 4% from every spin.

The thread is to allow people to question some commonly misguided beliefs some people have.

You don't have to believe me, but it's true whether you do or not

 

[trancemonkey]

So you're saying he's giving mistruths?!?

I'm telling

You didn't tell though.. you are like the worst kind of snitch. Say you are gonna do it but then don't. Evil goat

 

[dionysus]

So you're saying he's giving mistruths?!?

I'm telling

snitches get stitches

 

[goatwack]

 

[trancemonkey]

Dont really understand the point of this thread

You are a games producer of course you are going to say slots are not rigged

So you just give a list of why you think slots are not rigged

and that's the thread? hmm ok.

Well providers make their money from customers losses right?
the casino takes a share of the losses and so does the provider.

You don't mention that.

Just out of interest, who do you think should give the other side then? Or do you think the forum should be a no-go for people who actually work in the industry and you should all just happily spout a load of unchallenged diatribe?

 

[dionysus]

Just out of interest, who do you think should give the other side then? Or do you think the forum should be a no-go for people who actually work in the industry and you should all just happily spout a load of unchallenged diatribe?

silly trance
a tinfoil hatter just wants confirmation basis; someone to say, yeah, youre right followed by SEE - I KNEW IT

 

[paul7388]

Don't know why people keep arguing the same point.

By now every one knows slots are R*****.

 

[trancemonkey]

Don't know why people keep arguing the same point.

By now every one knows slots are R*****.

Rejuvenating?

 

[Jono777]

Rejuvenating?

Quite the opposite these days. The industry is in desperate need of fresh ideas.

 

[dionysus]

Quite the opposite these days. The industry is in desperate need of fresh ideas.

everything cloned...but now..in robin's egg blue!!!

 

[pinnit2014]

Quite the opposite these days. The industry is in desperate need of fresh ideas.

Yep, might sleep through 2019 then: the year of the Megawayzzzzz

 

[Jono777]

Thing is I have plenty of ideas that may work wonders or get rubbished, as I'm sure others do too.

Bottom line is developers need to approach the seasoned player, something I believe they've never done other than post development - pre release.

Previously successful slots, combined with knowledgeable player input and Hey Presto!

 

[dionysus]

Thing is I have plenty of ideas that may work wonders or get rubbished, as I'm sure others do too.

Bottom line is developers need to approach the seasoned player, something I believe they've never done other than post development - pre release.

Previously successful slots, combined with knowledgeable player input and Hey Presto!

Simmo did something to the effect of this - maybe it's something he'll attack again.

 

[Jono777]

Simmo did something to the effect of this - maybe it's something he'll attack again.

Oops my bad, Afterlife:Inferno, I was even part of that project lol

But yes, that is a good tactic and only hindered in this particular case IMO by the fact it was one of the much smaller providers out there

 

[trancemonkey]

Thing is I have plenty of ideas that may work wonders or get rubbished, as I'm sure others do too.

Bottom line is developers need to approach the seasoned player, something I believe they've never done other than post development - pre release.

Previously successful slots, combined with knowledgeable player input and Hey Presto!

Or maybe some of us (me?) are players and so try to push the boundaries. Megaways is the new kid on the block... it has already saturated and this will likely kill it in the next year or so. But it was a neat idea and kudos to BTG, even though arguably others have done it better.

@Jono777 - feel free to PM me with your ideas. I'm always on the lookout for new ideas for games. It won't be online but it might end up on site if it's good and you are happy for me to make it. If nothing else, I can talk it through with you and help you make it something you can maybe give to an online company. And I can certainly go through the ideation process with you and you can see why some of your ideas would/wouldn't work.

 

[dionysus]

Or maybe some of us (me?) are players and so try to push the boundaries. Megaways is the new kid on the block... it has alredy saturated and this will likely kill it in the next year or so. But it was a neat idea and kudos to BTG, even though arguably others have done it better.

@Jono777 - feel free to PM me with your ideas. I'm always on the lookout for new ideas for games. It won't be online but it might end up on site if it's good. If nothing else, I can talk it through with you and help you make it something you can maybe give to an online company. And I can certainly go through the ideation process with you and you can see why some of your ideas would/wouldn't work.

don't tempt us - I've been running a line through my head for a couple years now

 

[Jono777]

Or maybe some of us (me?) are players and so try to push the boundaries. Megaways is the new kid on the block... it has alredy saturated and this will likely kill it in the next year or so. But it was a neat idea and kudos to BTG, even though arguably others have done it better.

@Jono777 - feel free to PM me with your ideas. I'm always on the lookout for new ideas for games. It won't be online but it might end up on site if it's good. If nothing else, I can talk it through with you and help you make it something you can maybe give to an online company. And I can certainly go through the ideation process with you and you can see why some of your ideas would/wouldn't work.

Fantastic stuff Trance, I'll look in to doing just that this coming week

 

[Sasukdcf]

Correct.. of course it would be equal. That's statistics.

And yes it's true that we "could alter the variance as you staked up. But each new set of maths requires testing, tuning, homolgating. It's not quick and cheap to do.
Plus you still haven't given me one good reason why we would make it worse for the high rollers... You know, the ones that basically keep us all in a job.

And I didn't allude to anything about "the sky's the limit" other than that they changed the RTP as you staked up.

Also, if you want to do points scoring, I'll match, and beat, your fifteen years of playing with my 24 years of playing, and 20 years of making games.

Bet I’ve lost more than you tho

To confirm yes you are right Re sky’s the limit..: I couldn’t remember what you had said but I knew you had factored something into it regarding RTP but I did say it was something along the lines of... rather than quoting you verbatim!

As for you reckoning that the test would land equal... it’s a pointless question in hindsite as I would expect you to say that... and you would expect me to disagree and as I don’t have 2000 people and a zillion dollar bankroll to try it we will never know!

What I will say tho is that the industry is still exceptionally cloak and dagger and the fact that very little information is available to the player certainly doesn’t help the level of suspicion....

I Recently had an issue with a game which is a megaways type affair...spinal tap...

After 2 months of arguing that the game rules and payout was flawed and fundementally incorrect I finally decided to send a letter before action to the casino....

My calculations were that the spin I hit should have paid £22,800 but it paid only £1600...

I argued this vehemently and got nowhere..

Eventually I was offered £5k which as it was just before Xmas I decided to take albeit with reservations... games are incorrectly designed, fuck ups do happen and games do break and malfunction.... but it’s nigh on impossible to get to speak to anyone about it..: I don’t think the industry helps itself in that respect

 

[dionysus]

What I will say tho is that the industry is still exceptionally cloak and dagger and the fact that very little information is available to the player certainly doesn’t help the level of suspicion....

But isnt that to be expected? It's a competetive market, so it shouldnt be surprsiing theyre very tight-lipped about their IP - no different than secret sauces, 11 herbs and spices, patents etc
I mean, nearly NOONE comes on here to explain maths, yet trance has - but he's still bound by nda's, work ethic etc but supplies as much as he's able, far far more than nearly all his brethren

 

[labeled]

Has anyone asked what timeline the rtp's are set for? A million spins? Six million? The expected lifetime of the game?

 

[trancemonkey]

Has anyone asked what timeline the rtp's are set for? A million spins? Six million? The expected lifetime of the game?

RTPs are precisely calculated over billions of spins in order to get to as close to an exact number as possible.

However to get to within, say, 1% of the target RTP very much depends on the game and the volatility and if it has progressives of not. For something like starburst I'd expect it to be pretty close after a million spins or so. For something like most Megaways games or HV games, this could be much higher. Probably over 5m.

 

[labeled]

So am I wrong in saying this is a bs thread? The software is set to do what it does over billions of spins. K. Accepted.

But surely the software differentiates between spin amounts, no? It should take a billion spins at a min bet for the avg to play out its expected rtp.

So everyone saying games change if you up your bet aren't saying the game is rigged.. they're acknowledging that the software is doing what it should... Because logically more players spin at .20 than .80. so if you move up to.80 (or $2, 10, 80, 100 etc), you're jumping into a new pool of what the game pays. Basically each bet AMT is its new game, right? Its new billion spins?

That doesn't seem rigged in any way, it seems logical. So what the heck is thevfight about?

 

[trancemonkey]

So am I wrong in saying this is a bs thread? The software is set to do what it does over billions of spins. K. Accepted.

But surely the software differentiates between spin amounts, no? It should take a billion spins at a min bet for the avg to play out its expected rtp.

So everyone saying games change if you up your bet aren't saying the game is rigged.. they're acknowledging that the software is doing what it should... Because logically more players spin at .20 than .80. so if you move up to.80 (or $2, 10, 80, 100 etc), you're jumping into a new pool of what the game pays. Basically each bet AMT is its new game, right? Its new billion spins?

That doesn't seem rigged in any way, it seems logical. So what the heck is thevfight about?

Well, there are no "pools" but you are right that stake us irrelevant.

Also, people that say "I never have the same experience when I bet up" are almost always not playing the same number of games at a higher stake.

If I start at 20p, play 500 games, win and stake up to 80p but only play 200 games, there is a good likelihood the game won't feel the same because a) random distribution and b) you simply aren't playing similar sessions.

 

[trancemonkey]

So am I wrong in saying this is a bs thread?

Why is it a BS thread? There are many prime on here who, for whatever reason, think slots are rigged. Apart from the obvious "Then why play?" question, I wanted to give people things to think about. Is that a problem?

 

[trancemonkey]

Bet I’ve lost more than you tho

To confirm yes you are right Re sky’s the limit..: I couldn’t remember what you had said but I knew you had factored something into it regarding RTP but I did say it was something along the lines of... rather than quoting you verbatim!

As for you reckoning that the test would land equal... it’s a pointless question in hindsite as I would expect you to say that... and you would expect me to disagree and as I don’t have 2000 people and a zillion dollar bankroll to try it we will never know!

What I will say tho is that the industry is still exceptionally cloak and dagger and the fact that very little information is available to the player certainly doesn’t help the level of suspicion....

I Recently had an issue with a game which is a megaways type affair...spinal tap...

After 2 months of arguing that the game rules and payout was flawed and fundementally incorrect I finally decided to send a letter before action to the casino....

My calculations were that the spin I hit should have paid £22,800 but it paid only £1600...

I argued this vehemently and got nowhere..

Eventually I was offered £5k which as it was just before Xmas I decided to take albeit with reservations... games are incorrectly designed, fuck ups do happen and games do break and malfunction.... but it’s nigh on impossible to get to speak to anyone about it..: I don’t think the industry helps itself in that respect

What was the fault?

 

[trancemonkey]

What I will say tho is that the industry is still exceptionally cloak and dagger and the fact that very little information is available to the player certainly doesn’t help the level of suspicion....

What information do you think would help you?

 

[labeled]

Wrong thread. Lol damn phone.

 

[Sasukdcf]

What was the fault?

They reckoned this result only constituted 3 wins even though the game advertises 2187 ways to win....

Go figure!!

 

[sufferinsilence]

They reckoned this result only constituted 3 wins even though the game advertises 2187 ways to win....

Go figure!!

If this is the wild reels feature they only count as 1 way unless there's more of them landing on the same reel. So 1 way 7oak of the guy, 1 way of Q and 1 way of J.

Say for example 2 of the wild reels land on reel 1 and 3 on reel 5 then it would be 6 ways 7oak guy, Q en J.

 

[Sasukdcf]

And @trancemonkey

I totally get what you are saying regarding playing less spins at higher stakes....

But to go back to one of my earlier comments...

My method ( right or wrong, and it’s just how I play)

I will stake at a level that’s around 100th of my pot....

So therefore my usual MO is to deposit £200 and play £2 spin...

If I get lucky I’ll draw my 2 and play with the rest ( free money )

This is roughly how I have always played...

And as I have said before I have hit literally countless big wins at around the £2 stake...:


But Never ( bar the one exception in 15 years )

Hit a 1000x feature at £5 stake or above

So my point is that I play a similar way and although I concede not quite as frequently that I play higher stakes it’s by no means a rarity either... and therefore my question would be why would this be...

Logically speaking from your camp... the only reason can be pure bad luck... although I would argue how long can you blame bad luck before you start to think there maybe other factors involved.....

As for what information would help...

An exact and complete breakdown of the law regarding RTP calculations and how the testing is carried out and on what stakes and over what number of spins....

I was fortunate enough to stumble upon a very high up member of Nmi testing house when I was enquiring about a progressive jackpot on coral site that never once paid out ( it was stuck at £100,000 for 3 years )

He explained they only tested the RTP of the game functions during standard play and were not asked to test the JP functionality!! Really !!

 

[Sasukdcf]

If this is the wild reels feature they only count as 1 way unless there's more of them landing on the same reel. So 1 way 7oak of the guy, 1 way of Q and 1 way of J.

Say for example 2 of the wild reels land on reel 1 and 3 on reel 5 then it would be 6 ways 7oak guy, Q en J.

Read the rules carefully that’s not what it says for heavy duty wilds tho .... which is what this feature was

 

[sufferinsilence]

Read the rules carefully that’s not what it says for heavy duty wilds tho .... which is what this feature was

So the rules are different from what the payouts are? I've played it myself and seen it being played on streams, the ways are always counted as 1 way if only 1 heavy duty wild lands on a reel.

Same as the wild reels feature on Genie Jackpots Megaways.

 

[sufferinsilence]

Spinal Tap rules say this about the heavy duty wild reels:
"Heavy Duty Wilds: The specified number of reels will be transformed into Wild Reels. Each Wild Reel can be triggered up to 5 times turning the Wild Reel into a multiplier."

So if only 1 lands the multiplier is 1. If you have 6 wild reels all with multiplier 1 it's going to be 3 times 1 way if you have 3 different symbols. That's how I understand this.

 

[Sasukdcf]

Read the rules carefully that’s not what it says for heavy duty wilds tho .... which is what this feature was

 

[sufferinsilence]

I see what you say but the 2187 ways is the amount of ways active during "rock mode". And I understand the confusion between the rules and what it says there. In your first screenshot the game will payout 12 ways of 7oak Q.

It's basically the same as the Genie Wilds feature on Genie Jackpots Megaways which says the following in the rules:
"GENIE WILDS - Genie will fly to a reel turning it into a Wild Reel. Genie can hit the same reel repeatedly, multiplying that Wild Reel to a maximum of x5."

 

[Sasukdcf]

Absolutely ( the screen shot of the game itself was actually the wrong one !! )

However 2 points of note

High voltage for instance
Very similar however it tells you in the rules wild reels only count as one position

Point 2

The screen shot with all the green wilds is what PP sent me showing the outcome
This clearly shows 3 wilds per reel not 1 wild per reel and this is where my argument stood was based... and by virtue of the fact they paid me £5k with no NDA I would be fairly sure in a court it would have stood up... thoughts ?

 

[mack341]

If paddy offered sasukdcf an extra £3,400 on top of the official game payout of £1,600, why would they feel the need to do this?

Is this common practice if everything is hunky dory with a game...

 

[sufferinsilence]

That we should all complain and get more money!

But yeah, either the rules are wrong(ly worded) or the payouts are wrong OR PP interpreted their own screenshot wrong. A wild reel isn't 3 wilds, but has always counted as 1 wild for that reel. I've played with real money, had a bash on fun money and saw it played by others and it all paid like I just said.

I'd like to hear from @trancemonkey on this one