The Day Has arrived for The UK

[dunover]

Think I'll need to because contrary to popular belief we do need Europe for dozens of reasons a few which I mentioned before. This is nothing against England or English people which I am friends with and get on with better than some people I know in real life. It's due to the way the country is being governed the people in power at Westminster are getting more abysmal by the second, it's a complete mess and now even worse. It's almost non optional to bail now. My vote along with everyone else in Scotland's was disregarded,overruled by the majority down south. Might as well just have asked England to vote and leave everyone else to sit back and watch.

Not the case. It's simply numbers. You'd be singing from a different hymn sheet now if the vote was reversed and it turned out that without the Scottish proportion the leavers would have edged it instead of the remain.

And you may have missed Wales also voted to leave..

I must say I laughed when I heard about all the pissants trying to get 500k signatures on Faecebook in a vain attempt to get a parliamentary debate on another referendum!!! YOU LOST!! GET OVER IT!! It's called 'democracy' and while that concept may be alien to the Brussels autocrats and the lib-fascists/Guardianistas in the UK, we aren't Ireland re. the Lisbon Treason when they were made to vote again to procure the 'right' result.

 

[citizenx]

I am not sure the time table you are suggesting will happen. Some of the EU leaders are calling for Article 50 be triggered sooner rather than later. Next weeks summit will be held without the UK present for the most part. The EU will not want or does it need a long exit from the EU for the UK. They will want it to start pretty soon in order to maintain stability within the remaining EU nations.

Article 50 requires a formal notification from the outgoing country. Unless the EU seeks to eject the UK instead (not sure there is a mechanism for it) then they'll just have to wait.

 

[citizenx]

As I said in a previous post this situation is very messy. I do hope that if Scotland does decide to call for another referendum it does it at the right time and independence is achieved. This vote has divided the UK as far as I can see and can have far reaching consequences and a real possibility of the break up of the United Kingdom.

The UK has been divided for decades. This vote just formalises those divisions.

 

[citizenx]

Doesn't work like that. Scotland are technically out of the EU and would have to re-join UNLESS they chose to leave the UK before the transitional period was up.

I can see that happening.

Scotland should have voted to leave when they had the chance last time. It's seemed inevitable it would go for years.

Relationship with Scotland and the rest of the UK, much like UK and Europe has felt like a failed marriage for a long time.

Time for some big changes but i think in the long term they will make everyone a bit happier.

 

[slotmaster]

Everyone wants to move to Canada now.

Bwahahahahaha............ don't.

 

[jetset]

I think the point many are missing in claiming generally that whole countries such as Scotland wanted to remain is that a very significant number of Scots (or Welsh, or Irish) in those countries voted contrary to the majority, and the margins were not that big, with a sizeable chunk of the population in favour of leaving or remaining as the case may be.

That's democracy for you.

It would be a great pity to see the UK split up, but going backwards and trying for another referendum in the hopes of a different result is just prolonging the agony.

I've noticed a lot of younger folks in the UK whingeing on TV and in the newspapers about their future being altered without their consent - has anyone seen any official demographics on the proportion of younger voters who actually exercised their right to vote in this important referendum?

 

[KasinoKing]

... has anyone seen any official demographics on the proportion of younger voters who actually exercised their right to vote in this important referendum?

No actual figures, but the BBC does have some interesting stats on the young vote showing turnout was lower in "young areas":

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KK

 

[Dinahnana]

Doesn't work like that. Scotland are technically out of the EU and would have to re-join UNLESS they chose to leave the UK before the transitional period was up.

I think if the powers that be think that the vote to leave the UK will be yes then they will call for a referendum and leave before the transitional period is up. Also the UK is technically not out of the EU yet.

 

[MightyDuck]

An independent Scotland in the EU. A thought I can get used to.

 

[KasinoKing]

Also the UK is technically not out of the EU yet.

Absolutely NOTHING will change until we submit Article 50.

Here's an extremely hypothetical question (for everyone):
Just suppose the EU said the UK could stay in the "club", but have FULL control over immigration.
And so the UK ran the referendum again - do you think the result would be completely different?

KK

 

[Harry_BKK]

Absolutely NOTHING will change until we submit Article 50.

Here's an extremely hypothetical question (for everyone):
Just suppose the EU said the UK could stay in the "club", but have FULL control over immigration.
And so the UK ran the referendum again - do you think the result would be completely different?

KK

- You run it again and LEAVE still prevails because you are still paying weekly GBP350Mio to the EU (which BTW is a totally exaggerated number as it does not take the rebate into account.)
- Now the EU says the UK can keep their contributions
- Referendum again - still LEAVE prevails
- etc etc.

Where would it end? The UK cherry picking what it wants to control and only adheres to the EU rules it likes to have.

NO, you voted OUT and that's it. Starting now to say "what if" is futile.

Invoke Article 50 and get on with it!!

 

[Dinahnana]

- You run it again and LEAVE still prevails because you are still paying weekly GBP350Mio to the EU (which BTW is a totally exaggerated number as it does not take the rebate into account.)
- Now the EU says the UK can keep their contributions
- Referendum again - still LEAVE prevails
- etc etc.

Where would it end? The UK cherry picking what it wants to control and only adheres to the EU rules it likes to have.

NO, you voted OUT and that's it. Starting now to say "what if" is futile.

Invoke Article 50 and get on with it!!

Well some of the foreign ministers of 6 founding member EU countries just announced that they want the UK to invoke article 50 straight away. I think if the UK does not then there will be negative consequences for them. I guess the appropriate saying here is you can't have your cake and eat it too. Tough times ahead. Also I think since Nicola Sturgeon will be looking for another Independence Scotland vote since her speech was pro EU. In the end the UK may come out if this much worse than it was before.

 

[geordiecolin]

I can see that happening.

Scotland should have voted to leave when they had the chance last time. It's seemed inevitable it would go for years.

Relationship with Scotland and the rest of the UK, much like UK and Europe has felt like a failed marriage for a long time.

Time for some big changes but i think in the long term they will make everyone a bit happier.

My word that Hadrian was a forward thinking chappy back in 110 AD

 

[geordiecolin]

Absolutely NOTHING will change until we submit Article 50.

Here's an extremely hypothetical question (for everyone):
Just suppose the EU said the UK could stay in the "club", but have FULL control over immigration.
And so the UK ran the referendum again - do you think the result would be completely different?

KK

That is extremely hypothetical because the diktats of the EU can not bend for individual states otherwise they would have to amend the rules for other states according to their wishes and it would become a shambles. The EU is too rigid

 

[Harry_BKK]

Nicola Sturgeon just announced a second referendum for the independence of Scotland and separate talks with the EU.

 

[secret2]

My word that Hadrian was a forward thinking chappy back in 110 AD

I was thinking this yesterday.

 

[dunover]

 

[Harry_BKK]

After BREXIT comes BREGRET

Hashtag #bregret trending heavily on Twitter.

- Farage taking back the promise that saved EU contributions will go into the NHS
- Daniel Hannan in a BBC interview: Leave campaign never promised "radical decline" in immigration .... We want some control.....Free movement of labor will stay....

Makes me wonder what will be left at the end of just next week, let alone in 1-2 years, of all those promises the LEAVE campaign made to convince people to vote for the Brexit?

 

[dunover]

After BREXIT comes BREGRET

Hashtag #bregret trending heavily on Twitter.

- Farage taking back the promise that saved EU contributions will go into the NHS
- Daniel Hannan in a BBC interview: Leave campaign never promised "radical decline" in immigration .... We want some control.....Free movement of labor will stay....

Makes me wonder what will be left at the end of just next week, let alone in 1-2 years, of all those promises the LEAVE campaign made to convince people to vote for the Brexit?

I wouldn't concern yourself too much with it Harry - you don't live here.

 

[mimi26]

After BREXIT comes BREGRET

Hashtag #bregret trending heavily on Twitter.

- Farage taking back the promise that saved EU contributions will go into the NHS
- Daniel Hannan in a BBC interview: Leave campaign never promised "radical decline" in immigration .... We want some control.....Free movement of labor will stay....

Makes me wonder what will be left at the end of just next week, let alone in 1-2 years, of all those promises the LEAVE campaign made to convince people to vote for the Brexit?

Why do people actually take Farage of an example of people going back on their promises he was never a part of the Brexit campaign and he has no right or authority to say where the money would go either, so anyone who ever took his word for truth are gullible at best

 

[Steviedoo]

Invoke article 50 now.

When you break up with some one you leave. You don't wait around to get used to the idea of a break up.

 

[Harry_BKK]

I wouldn't concern yourself too much with it Harry - you don't live here.

No worries Dunover, I lived in the UK 1997-2002, so it is crossed off my list of future homes

I am not worried...just astounded that so many British citizens actually believed that the LEAVE campaign will keep their promises.

 

[Harry_BKK]

Why do people actually take Farage of an example of people going back on their promises he was never a part of the Brexit campaign and he has no right or authority to say where the money would go either, so anyone who ever took his word for truth are gullible at best

Farage was very much part of the campaign at the beginning before they kicked him to the kerb.

Boris had the slogan on his campaign bus and he is likely to be your next PM

 

[Dinahnana]

I have been reading that poor areas in places like Wales and Cornwall which were among communities that voted to leave receive subsidies from the EU. Now they are calling on Westminister to ensure that their funding doesn't stop. If that funding cannot be obtained then these communities will be worse off because if they can't get money from the government they certainly won't be getting it from the EU. So it seems that many people voted to leave based on what people like Nigel Farage who to me comes across as racist told them.

 

[geordiecolin]

Why do people actually take Farage of an example of people going back on their promises he was never a part of the Brexit campaign and he has no right or authority to say where the money would go either, so anyone who ever took his word for truth are gullible at best

Farage is a big loose cannon but he was a lone voice for years in Europe facing up to those in the Hague assembly telling them to their face that they where corrupt and none transparent. I respect him for that.
The out vote will make a massive difference to how we govern our Country.

We need to remember that the out campaign where never seeking election to government because they where/are a cross party campaign so they could never make solid promises about what money could be spent where or how exactly we implement such powers that have been taken back

 

[goatwack]

No worries Dunover, I lived in the UK 1997-2002, so it is crossed of my list of future homes

I am not worried...just astounded that so many British citizen actually believed that the LEAVE campaign will keep their promises.

Isn't that all politicians? They get their wish then screw us over. At least now we get double-crossed by our own, not Brussels!

Makes no real difference really in the long term, it's more a case of choosing which orifice you'd like to be shafted in

Once the career politicians have moved on, now we get to ruin our own country all on our own!! No doubt by the time we see the results of this dickstorm come to fruition, Farage and co will be long gone anyway.

 

[geordiecolin]

Isn't that all politicians? They get their wish then screw us over. At least now we get double-crossed by our own, not Brussels!

Makes no real difference really in the long term, it's more a case of choosing which orifice you'd like to be shafted in

Once the career politicians have moved on, now we get to ruin our own country all on our own!! No doubt by the time we see the results of this dickstorm come to fruition, Farage and co will be long gone anyway.

I wouldn't count on it being the end of Farage but UKIP are totally spent now as a party

 

[goatwack]

I wouldn't count on it being the end of Farage but UKIP are totally spent now as a party

You'd think so wouldn't you, with their M.O being predominantly about Europe. But hey, with the current climate, and racial and religious tensions prevailing they will always have a special place in British politics! Maybe the BNP will make an Elvis- style comeback and win our hearts and minds?

I'm still perplexed as to why the Monster Raving Loony Party didn't clean up at the last Election. Their time is NOW!!

 

[Harry_BKK]

Sorry had to post this :clap: :yahoo:

 

[goatwack]

Sorry had to post this :clap: :yahoo:

View attachment 68621

I hair-eally hope that doesn't happen

I need to see their mane-ifesto first

 

[vinylweatherman]

I am not sure the time table you are suggesting will happen. Some of the EU leaders are calling for Article 50 be triggered sooner rather than later. Next weeks summit will be held without the UK present for the most part. The EU will not want or does it need a long exit from the EU for the UK. They will want it to start pretty soon in order to maintain stability within the remaining EU nations.

On a side note it is interesting to see all the interviews on the various news networks on the reasons some people chose to vote to leave. 95% or so are people stating that the reason they voted is because immigrants are taking over or other such nonsense. I think many of those people are not going to get the result they want. Many immigrants in the UK will be allowed to stay so that won't make them happy.

The next couple of years are going to be very messy indeed.

Politicians should have seen that coming. The lack of capacity due to the numbers requiring the public service is something most ordinary people are aware of, and suffering. The failure to address these capacity issues is bad enough, but it has been made even worse by instances of prioritising migrants over locals when some services reach breaking point and something must be done immediately. The impression this has left for many is that when a service has exceeded capacity, the emergency action to restore balance means kicking locals out of the service rather than telling migrants that there is no further capacity for them to avail themselves of, and to find an alternative provision. Most notable have been cases where GP surgeries have booted long standing patients to make room for new migrant arrivals who simply cannot be left without access to healthcare, yet it's OK to leave these locals without access to healthcare, even if only for a while.

People were getting angrier by the week over such things, but until Thursday they felt no one was listening and nothing was being done about it. If they tried to push the issue they were slapped down and branded "racist". The ONLY way left to express their anger in a legitimate manner and one they hoped would force change was to vote leave. Clearly, the efforts made to convince them that migration was good for Britain and made us richer did not convince them. This may have been because despite all the extra money coming into the treasury from the migrants' positive contribution to the economy, things for ordinary working Brits were simply getting steadily worse year on year. Naturally, they would think that voting leave would mean something like 200,000 less additions to the queue for essential services each year, which should cause things to steadily improve. They would feel that the improvement would be even greater because many of these 200,000 additions were given a "fast track" to the front of the queue, rather than having to join the back of the queue like everyone else.

 

[vinylweatherman]

- You run it again and LEAVE still prevails because you are still paying weekly GBP350Mio to the EU (which BTW is a totally exaggerated number as it does not take the rebate into account.)
- Now the EU says the UK can keep their contributions
- Referendum again - still LEAVE prevails
- etc etc.

Where would it end? The UK cherry picking what it wants to control and only adheres to the EU rules it likes to have.

NO, you voted OUT and that's it. Starting now to say "what if" is futile.

Invoke Article 50 and get on with it!!

We should, but the timing of the referendum would mean many government ministers having to kiss goodbye to their long summer holidays, hence the delay until October. Cameron arrogantly assumed a remain vote was guaranteed, and that would be the end of the matter. He would never have given us the referendum had he thought a leave vote was a distinct possibility. He also seemed to want to get the referendum out of the way quickly, maybe because he knew that the EU was wanting to release news that would make more people inclined to vote leave were the referendum to be delayed till the Autumn or 2017.

It turns out that the EU DID release news that would appear to make it even easier for refugees to freely move around the EU, and did so just as the polls closed. Clearly, had this news been released a bit earlier, it would have made even more people vote to leave. In fact, it seems to be GOOD news, because it would mean an EU standard for documenting refugees who arrive without documents, so whilst they might be able to move more freely, it would be harder for them to "disappear" into the black economy or tell different stories to different EU countries in order to get the best deal. The scheme would also have made removal easier as it was designed to reach a standard that third party countries would agree to accept, thus making the return of denied claimants easier.

 

[Harry_BKK]

We should, but the timing of the referendum would mean many government ministers having to kiss goodbye to their long summer holidays, hence the delay until October. Cameron arrogantly assumed a remain vote was guaranteed, and that would be the end of the matter. He would never have given us the referendum had he thought a leave vote was a distinct possibility. He also seemed to want to get the referendum out of the way quickly, maybe because he knew that the EU was wanting to release news that would make more people inclined to vote leave were the referendum to be delayed till the Autumn or 2017.

It turns out that the EU DID release news that would appear to make it even easier for refugees to freely move around the EU, and did so just as the polls closed. Clearly, had this news been released a bit earlier, it would have made even more people vote to leave. In fact, it seems to be GOOD news, because it would mean an EU standard for documenting refugees who arrive without documents, so whilst they might be able to move more freely, it would be harder for them to "disappear" into the black economy or tell different stories to different EU countries in order to get the best deal. The scheme would also have made removal easier as it was designed to reach a standard that third party countries would agree to accept, thus making the return of denied claimants easier.

- any government minister going now on summer holidays does not deserve to be a minister
- I do not think Cameron's misjudgement is all; he, Boris etc. they all know the EU wants to start the exit negotiations asap to avoid contagion, hence by pushing the activation of Article 50 to October your government promises itself to be in a better, stronger negotiation position.

> that is of course wishful thinking as the EU will do everything to show that they don't go soft on this​

- refugees to move easier in the EU --> that is an assumption. What the EU is planning and doing is to have the refugees better and more accurately registered. If they achieve that the refugees can move freely in the EU but cannot disappear.

 

[Harry_BKK]

Politicians should have seen that coming. The lack of capacity due to the numbers requiring the public service is something most ordinary people are aware of, and suffering. The failure to address these capacity issues is bad enough, but it has been made even worse by instances of prioritising migrants over locals when some services reach breaking point and something must be done immediately. The impression this has left for many is that when a service has exceeded capacity, the emergency action to restore balance means kicking locals out of the service rather than telling migrants that there is no further capacity for them to avail themselves of, and to find an alternative provision. Most notable have been cases where GP surgeries have booted long standing patients to make room for new migrant arrivals who simply cannot be left without access to healthcare, yet it's OK to leave these locals without access to healthcare, even if only for a while.

People were getting angrier by the week over such things, but until Thursday they felt no one was listening and nothing was being done about it. If they tried to push the issue they were slapped down and branded "racist". The ONLY way left to express their anger in a legitimate manner and one they hoped would force change was to vote leave. Clearly, the efforts made to convince them that migration was good for Britain and made us richer did not convince them. This may have been because despite all the extra money coming into the treasury from the migrants' positive contribution to the economy, things for ordinary working Brits were simply getting steadily worse year on year. Naturally, they would think that voting leave would mean something like 200,000 less additions to the queue for essential services each year, which should cause things to steadily improve. They would feel that the improvement would be even greater because many of these 200,000 additions were given a "fast track" to the front of the queue, rather than having to join the back of the queue like everyone else.

Common VWM, i lived in the UK 1997 - 2002 and the NHS was shambles already then. There were next to no immigrants at the time. The reason you have those problems now is because of the continued budget cutting by your governments.

I remember a work colleague who desperately needed a hip replacement. It was so bad that he would walk backwards whenever possible as normal walking was just too painful. Yet the NHS made him wait in total 3 years for his surgery, during which they canceled it at short notice and postponed it a few times.

The increased numbers due to the immigration just brought it out into the light in what bad shape it indeed is. They are not the cause of the problems. In fact without immigrant nurses and doctors the NHS would have collapsed long time ago.

 

[Dinahnana]

Politicians should have seen that coming. The lack of capacity due to the numbers requiring the public service is something most ordinary people are aware of, and suffering. The failure to address these capacity issues is bad enough, but it has been made even worse by instances of prioritising migrants over locals when some services reach breaking point and something must be done immediately. The impression this has left for many is that when a service has exceeded capacity, the emergency action to restore balance means kicking locals out of the service rather than telling migrants that there is no further capacity for them to avail themselves of, and to find an alternative provision. Most notable have been cases where GP surgeries have booted long standing patients to make room for new migrant arrivals who simply cannot be left without access to healthcare, yet it's OK to leave these locals without access to healthcare, even if only for a while.

People were getting angrier by the week over such things, but until Thursday they felt no one was listening and nothing was being done about it. If they tried to push the issue they were slapped down and branded "racist". The ONLY way left to express their anger in a legitimate manner and one they hoped would force change was to vote leave. Clearly, the efforts made to convince them that migration was good for Britain and made us richer did not convince them. This may have been because despite all the extra money coming into the treasury from the migrants' positive contribution to the economy, things for ordinary working Brits were simply getting steadily worse year on year. Naturally, they would think that voting leave would mean something like 200,000 less additions to the queue for essential services each year, which should cause things to steadily improve. They would feel that the improvement would be even greater because many of these 200,000 additions were given a "fast track" to the front of the queue, rather than having to join the back of the queue like everyone else.

I agree with you on many points. I am not a huge fan of mass migration as Ireland faces similar challenges. I think that UK voting out of the EU could improve the situation for the rest of the EU since the shock vote will force them to make changes with regards to migration from countries outside the EU.

On the flip side if the UK makes a Norway deal (be part of the EEA and not the EU) it would still have to accept the free movement of people and trade in order to keep the open trade going AND to keep a lot of the international financial institutions who employ thousands of people in the UK. I don't think that the people that voted leave will go for that deal. It kind of defeats the point of voting out for the first place.

I am not sure what the UK will look like completely outside of the EEA are either. Could that impact the 1.2 million Brits that live in other EU countries and could that impact the opportunity that young Brits have with regards to jobs in Europe? It makes no sense to me to have the UK completely closed off from Europe.

Myself I am most worried about Ireland and Northern Ireland. There has been peace here for the most part for many years and having an open border between north and south contributes to that peace by allowing relationships to flourish between our communities in my opinion. What happens if an appropriate deal cannot be struck and the border will have to be closed? That could put Northern Ireland into chaos which hurts Ireland as a whole.

Not to mention if Scotland leaves the UK then the UK is weakened. All this could leave the UK worse off than it was before with more job loss and recession etc. I do hope that won't happen and the exit deal that the UK gets will be beneficial to the UK, Ireland and the rest of the EU. Like it or not Ireland impacted heavily on what happens to the UK. I am concerned about that. I have many British born relatives and hope that their future will be bright and not be chaotic.

 

[jetset]

No actual figures, but the BBC does have some interesting stats on the young vote showing turnout was lower in "young areas":

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KK

Thanks - that was very useful and informative.

It does seem to indicate that more focus on campaigning among the younger (sub-45 years) demographic could have produced a different result in this very closely contested referendum...and it illustrates that turnout was apparently lower in the "younger" areas, which was something I was trying to fathom.

Subsequent to my post I thought I heard in a television report (I was not directly paying attention at the time) that only around 30 percent of the young who were qualified to vote, did so.

That said, a 72.2 percent overall voter turnout is pretty good going.

This is all of academic interest anyway, with the end result decided and the future course of the UK set.

 

[maxd]

I'm seeing similar reports re the young voters. I've seen it given as 40-45% turnout for the 24-or-younger bracket VS 70%+ for the 55-or-olders.

FWIW weekend polls for "Yes" in IndyRef2 vary between 60 and 80%.

 

[Harry_BKK]

Reading Sunday's news I find it hilarious and hypocritical that 2 of the counties with some of the highest LEAVE percentage to say:

- Cornwall - we voted out but we still want the GBP 656Mio from the EU that were allocated to us in the 2014 - 2020 plan (and that after having already received over 600Mio in the period 2007-2013)
- Yorkshire - same story, the amount is only slightly lower.

And even more hilarious that the LEAVE camp promised them:

In a key moment of the campaign, Vote Leave pledged that in the event of an out vote, money saved from Britain’s EU ‘membership fee’ would be used to fill the gap.

This can easily turn ugly when everybody is fighting for/defending their piece of the pie.

 

[ThePOGG]

What a mess. I'm proud of the way Scotland voted, that the result didn't go our way is democracy but I strongly suspect that over the coming months there's going to be a huge swell of buyers remorse amongst Leave voters. It's already evident in a parliamentary petition that's over 3 million signatories (an increase of approx 1 mill in the last 24-36 hours - in fact it's increased by 70k in the last 2 hours).

My personal opinion is a lot of people voted to Leave just to teach those in power a lesson and never truly believed that there was any real possibility of a Leave win. Those people were lied to regarding the benefits of leaving and we now face our country being led be the very people that so significantly mis-represented the truth. When things get worse rather than better I'm not sure the blame the immigrants argument is going to work again (I certainly hope not). Bet Max is glad he moved here now lol.

And every indication I've seen suggests a huge surge in support of IndyRef2. I think the higher end of today's polls are likely unrealistic (80% for leaving the UK). That poll came from the Sunday Herald - the Sunday Herald came out in support of independence during the last referendum and even though the weekday Herald didn't, reading it fairly regularly I've always felt it had more of a Yes slant - even during the week - than other papers. That being the case the demographic of the users visiting their site to take part in the poll is likely to be skewed in favour of Yes. The lower end I don't think is at all unlikely (60%). Everyone I've spoken to since Friday tells of a friend, family member or colleague who voted No and now wants to change their vote. So many people voted No because we were told we'd be kicked out the EU if we left the UK. Now it looks like our only hope of staying in the EU is to leave the UK.

There's good reasons behind the Leave vote - successive governments have spent our money on bailing out failed corporate giants and foreign wars that were unnecessary while allowing our basic public services to become overburdened. Sadly, when the poorest are subjected to worsening conditions it becomes all to easy for cynical and manipulative parties to scapegoat foreigners. Those that voted Leave have every right to be angry, they've been let down at every turn, but sadly I feel that they've been duped into focusing that anger on the wrong people.

 

[vinylweatherman]

- any government minister going now on summer holidays does not deserve to be a minister
- I do not think Cameron's misjudgement is all; he, Boris etc. they all know the EU wants to start the exit negotiations asap to avoid contagion, hence by pushing the activation of Article 50 to October your government promises itself to be in a better, stronger negotiation position.

> that is of course wishful thinking as the EU will do everything to show that they don't go soft on this​

- refugees to move easier in the EU --> that is an assumption. What the EU is planning and doing is to have the refugees better and more accurately registered. If they achieve that the refugees can move freely in the EU but cannot disappear.

This is what I thought when reading it, but by releasing this news just as polls closed it has given the voters the impression that this was another of those measures that the EU ministers were trying to keep buried before the referendum, which of course has meant that it has been negatively interpreted as an intention to make it even easier for non EU migrants to move through to Calais and sneak into Britain, with the EU then preventing us from removing them. There were a number of measures rumoured to be held back so that voters here would not find out about them until after the poll, and one obvious reason for hiding such proposals is that they would influence more people to vote leave.

Common VWM, i lived in the UK 1997 - 2002 and the NHS was shambles already then. There were next to no immigrants at the time. The reason you have those problems now is because of the continued budget cutting by your governments.

I remember a work colleague who desperately needed a hip replacement. It was so bad that he would walk backwards whenever possible as normal walking was just too painful. Yet the NHS made him wait in total 3 years for his surgery, during which they canceled it at short notice and postponed it a few times.

The increased numbers due to the immigration just brought it out into the light in what bad shape it indeed is. They are not the cause of the problems. In fact without immigrant nurses and doctors the NHS would have collapsed long time ago.

The NHS has always had problems with long waiting lists for some procedures, and many changes, reorganisations, etc by numerous government in an effort to make it more "efficient" as a result. Part of the current problem has come from the wholesale closure of hospital beds based on the move towards out patient day treatments rather than having patients booked into a ward. Unfortunately, this has broken down because large numbers of patients are fit for discharge, but stuck on a ward for weeks on end because they are not well enough to care for themselves at home, and no care package can be put together for them, and until there is a care package, the hospital is stuck with them. This means there are no beds for when there is a surge at A&E and patients need unplanned admission. This has given us our latest scandal of ambulances sat for hours outside A&E unable to unload patients, and also causing a shortage of ambulances for answering new emergency calls.

The blame has been levelled at "population increase", but the main thrust of this has been "migration" during the campaigns.

Reading Sunday's news I find it hilarious and hypocritical that 2 of the counties with some of the highest LEAVE percentage to say:

- Cornwall - we voted out but we still want the GBP 656Mio from the EU that were allocated to us in the 2014 - 2020 plan (and that after having already received over 600Mio in the period 2007-2013)
- Yorkshire - same story, the amount is only slightly lower.

And even more hilarious that the LEAVE camp promised them:



This can easily turn ugly when everybody is fighting for/defending their piece of the pie.

The problem is that the leave campaign has been promising the same pot of money to many people, and there won't be enough to go around so some will feel they have been shafted. We saw backtracking of the claims and promises on the leave campaign battlebus almost as soon as the result was declared. They are now trying to rewrite history by saying "we never said that", or "this has been widely misunderstood". Well, it was being "widely misunderstood" during weeks of campaigning, but no one felt it necessary to clarify the statements being made such that the voters properly understood them before casting their votes.

 

[dunover]

What a mess. I'm proud of the way Scotland voted, that the result didn't go our way is democracy but I strongly suspect that over the coming months there's going to be a huge swell of buyers remorse amongst Leave voters. It's already evident in a parliamentary petition that's over 3 million signatories (an increase of approx 1 mill in the last 24-36 hours - in fact it's increased by 70k in the last 2 hours).My personal opinion is a lot of people voted to Leave just to teach those in power a lesson and never truly believed that there was any real possibility of a Leave win. Those people were lied to regarding the benefits of leaving and we now face our country being led be the very people that so significantly mis-represented the truth. When things get worse rather than better I'm not sure the blame the immigrants argument is going to work again (I certainly hope not). Bet Max is glad he moved here now lol.

And every indication I've seen suggests a huge surge in support of IndyRef2. I think the higher end of today's polls are likely unrealistic (80% for leaving the UK). That poll came from the Sunday Herald - the Sunday Herald came out in support of independence during the last referendum and even though the weekday Herald didn't, reading it fairly regularly I've always felt it had more of a Yes slant - even during the week - than other papers. That being the case the demographic of the users visiting their site to take part in the poll is likely to be skewed in favour of Yes. The lower end I don't think is at all unlikely (60%). Everyone I've spoken to since Friday tells of a friend, family member or colleague who voted No and now wants to change their vote. So many people voted No because we were told we'd be kicked out the EU if we left the UK. Now it looks like our only hope of staying in the EU is to leave the UK.

There's good reasons behind the Leave vote - successive governments have spent our money on bailing out failed corporate giants and foreign wars that were unnecessary while allowing our basic public services to become overburdened. Sadly, when the poorest are subjected to worsening conditions it becomes all to easy for cynical and manipulative parties to scapegoat foreigners. Those that voted Leave have every right to be angry, they've been let down at every turn, but sadly I feel that they've been duped into focusing that anger on the wrong people.

And the relevance is? There will not be another referendum as the whole matter would be for retrospective legislation, which our unwritten constitution rules out. Perhaps somebody should have told the faecebook bloke who's rousing the torch-and-pitchfork mob in cyberspace. 3 million ? 4 million? So what? A tiny %age of the 35 million who voted. So the referendum becomes a 'neverendum'?
Will you all sign my petition to UEFA should England be knocked out by Iceland, so we can have a replay?

 

[ThePOGG]

So the referendum becomes a 'neverendum'?

Bit of an over-reaction there Dun. There was no suggestion that there should be another referendum. I haven't signed the petition simply because I agree that the result is what it is. The relevance was that the fast growing petition shows the level of response the result is having and lends credence to the concept of "buyers remorse" that I spoke about within the post. Perhaps it's simply not the case and there is no significant proportion of Leave voters that would change their mind now, but personally I doubt that.

 

[dunover]

Bit of an over-reaction there Dun. There was no suggestion that there should be another referendum. I haven't signed the petition simply because I agree that the result is what it is. The relevance was that the fast growing petition shows the level of response the result is having and lends credence to the concept of "buyers remorse" that I spoke about within the post. Perhaps it's simply not the case and there is no significant proportion of Leave voters that would change their mind now, but personally I doubt that.

Yes, sorry I should have made it clear I was ridiculing the faecebook mob. There is an element of truth maybe in the buyer's remorse idea but this purchase never came with a money-back guarantee. That was clear at the point of sale.

 

[Dinahnana]

Yes, sorry I should have made it clear I was ridiculing the faecebook mob. There is an element of truth maybe in the buyer's remorse idea but this purchase never came with a money-back guarantee. That was clear at the point of sale.

I am hearing about the possibility of Scotland possibly vetoing the exit of the EU what do you think will happen if that occurs?

 

[vinylweatherman]

There are now reports of a right wing backlash against migrants from people who see the Brexit result as giving them permission to openly express hatred and racism. This is causing fear among not only migrants who have come here under the EU free movement rules, but people who were born here from parents and grandparents who migrated in the 1960's to plug a shortfall in the workforce after WWII killed many of our fit young men off.

This could easily escalate into riots and street battles between members of the migrant community and the right wing fascists who are demanding that they all be immediately rounded up and deported as a result of the Brexit vote.

There has been a similar rise in the extreme right in Germany caused by the sheer numbers of refugees coming in after Merkel told them they were welcome.

Better management of migration and the additional pressure it placed on public services would have prevented such extreme views gaining much traction, but it's appealing to people who have suffered the negative consequences for too long, and who want to see a quick fix NOW so that they can return to the old days of same day GP appointments, affordable housing, and less downward pressure on wages. These are all things the government could have dealt with such that migration did not cause negative consequences for many impoverished towns and cities.

Earlier reports cited migration as the main issue that drove many to vote leave, the economic and trade arguments didn't really matter to these voters.

 

[geordiecolin]

What a mess. I'm proud of the way Scotland voted, that the result didn't go our way is democracy but I strongly suspect that over the coming months there's going to be a huge swell of buyers remorse amongst Leave voters. It's already evident in a parliamentary petition that's over 3 million signatories (an increase of approx 1 mill in the last 24-36 hours - in fact it's increased by 70k in the last 2 hours).

My personal opinion is a lot of people voted to Leave just to teach those in power a lesson and never truly believed that there was any real possibility of a Leave win. Those people were lied to regarding the benefits of leaving and we now face our country being led be the very people that so significantly mis-represented the truth. When things get worse rather than better I'm not sure the blame the immigrants argument is going to work again (I certainly hope not). Bet Max is glad he moved here now lol.

And every indication I've seen suggests a huge surge in support of IndyRef2. I think the higher end of today's polls are likely unrealistic (80% for leaving the UK). That poll came from the Sunday Herald - the Sunday Herald came out in support of independence during the last referendum and even though the weekday Herald didn't, reading it fairly regularly I've always felt it had more of a Yes slant - even during the week - than other papers. That being the case the demographic of the users visiting their site to take part in the poll is likely to be skewed in favour of Yes. The lower end I don't think is at all unlikely (60%). Everyone I've spoken to since Friday tells of a friend, family member or colleague who voted No and now wants to change their vote. So many people voted No because we were told we'd be kicked out the EU if we left the UK. Now it looks like our only hope of staying in the EU is to leave the UK.

There's good reasons behind the Leave vote - successive governments have spent our money on bailing out failed corporate giants and foreign wars that were unnecessary while allowing our basic public services to become overburdened. Sadly, when the poorest are subjected to worsening conditions it becomes all to easy for cynical and manipulative parties to scapegoat foreigners. Those that voted Leave have every right to be angry, they've been let down at every turn, but sadly I feel that they've been duped into focusing that anger on the wrong people.

I predict that once the dust settles that there could be a new party emerge made up of Tories,Labour and UKIP members that will run the Country given an election

 

[geordiecolin]

I am hearing about the possibility of Scotland possibly vetoing the exit of the EU what do you think will happen if that occurs?

I think that it will effect their credibility too much and create too much trouble for them. I think their aim is to seek independence asap rather than stall it by playing political games which will drag on and on

 

[geordiecolin]

There are now reports of a right wing backlash against migrants from people who see the Brexit result as giving them permission to openly express hatred and racism. This is causing fear among not only migrants who have come here under the EU free movement rules, but people who were born here from parents and grandparents who migrated in the 1960's to plug a shortfall in the workforce after WWII killed many of our fit young men off.

This could easily escalate into riots and street battles between members of the migrant community and the right wing fascists who are demanding that they all be immediately rounded up and deported as a result of the Brexit vote.

There has been a similar rise in the extreme right in Germany caused by the sheer numbers of refugees coming in after Merkel told them they were welcome.

Better management of migration and the additional pressure it placed on public services would have prevented such extreme views gaining much traction, but it's appealing to people who have suffered the negative consequences for too long, and who want to see a quick fix NOW so that they can return to the old days of same day GP appointments, affordable housing, and less downward pressure on wages. These are all things the government could have dealt with such that migration did not cause negative consequences for many impoverished towns and cities.

Earlier reports cited migration as the main issue that drove many to vote leave, the economic and trade arguments didn't really matter to these voters.

Do you think that this could be more scaremongering whipped up by the establishment and orchestrated by them to fuel their own cause?

 

[Dinahnana]

There are now reports of a right wing backlash against migrants from people who see the Brexit result as giving them permission to openly express hatred and racism. This is causing fear among not only migrants who have come here under the EU free movement rules, but people who were born here from parents and grandparents who migrated in the 1960's to plug a shortfall in the workforce after WWII killed many of our fit young men off.

This could easily escalate into riots and street battles between members of the migrant community and the right wing fascists who are demanding that they all be immediately rounded up and deported as a result of the Brexit vote.

There has been a similar rise in the extreme right in Germany caused by the sheer numbers of refugees coming in after Merkel told them they were welcome.

Better management of migration and the additional pressure it placed on public services would have prevented such extreme views gaining much traction, but it's appealing to people who have suffered the negative consequences for too long, and who want to see a quick fix NOW so that they can return to the old days of same day GP appointments, affordable housing, and less downward pressure on wages. These are all things the government could have dealt with such that migration did not cause negative consequences for many impoverished towns and cities.

Earlier reports cited migration as the main issue that drove many to vote leave, the economic and trade arguments didn't really matter to these voters.

No good pointing out the past mistakes now. It was kinda obvious there would be anti-migrant backlash given that the Farage camp was very bigoted in its approach which would leave many in that camp with the idea that it was okay to turn on migrants.

Truth is the Leave campaign had no idea of what to do if the won and guess what? They won and haven't a clue about what to do now. Politicians are currently too busy stabbing each other in the backs instead of calling for calm and looking after the people in the country which is fast devolving into chaos.

 

[Harry_BKK]

There are now reports of a right wing backlash against migrants from people who see the Brexit result as giving them permission to openly express hatred and racism. This is causing fear among not only migrants who have come here under the EU free movement rules, but people who were born here from parents and grandparents who migrated in the 1960's to plug a shortfall in the workforce after WWII killed many of our fit young men off.

This could easily escalate into riots and street battles between members of the migrant community and the right wing fascists who are demanding that they all be immediately rounded up and deported as a result of the Brexit vote.

There has been a similar rise in the extreme right in Germany caused by the sheer numbers of refugees coming in after Merkel told them they were welcome.

Better management of migration and the additional pressure it placed on public services would have prevented such extreme views gaining much traction, but it's appealing to people who have suffered the negative consequences for too long, and who want to see a quick fix NOW so that they can return to the old days of same day GP appointments, affordable housing, and less downward pressure on wages. These are all things the government could have dealt with such that migration did not cause negative consequences for many impoverished towns and cities.

Earlier reports cited migration as the main issue that drove many to vote leave, the economic and trade arguments didn't really matter to these voters.

Agree with you VWM but that is just part of the story.

For the past 6 years your PM Cameron has been bashing the EU for his own benefit, which was to show everybody what a great leader he is and how he is bringing the EU leaders down on their knees to beg the UK not to leave the EU.

He has used every little opportunity in these years to do that whilst at the same time introduced the worst cuts in welfare, housing subsidies, health benefits etc which targeted exactly the low income families who now voted LEAVE. All has been somehow accepted as long as people could see or had the impression that he is reigning in the EU.

Earlier this year he presented then the big success story of his negotiations to the people, which is at best laughable: yearly rebate increased by 200Mio, no benefits for migrants from the EU for their first months/years in the UK (period depending whether they have a job) and a few other things not even worthy mentioning.

Suddenly, he turns around and wants to stay in the EU after having poisoned the citizens for 6 years to leave it and 3 years of waving the "sword of Damocles " speak EU Leave referendum.

He asked for cake, now he got it and leaves it to others to eat it, knowing it tastes absolutely sour.

Merkel had nothing to do with this development as the UK never took substantially more refugees than in any other years. She made the right decision to help people in need, it was only the execution which lacked. A proper registration, distribution and integration in all EU member states and all would be much better. The bigger protests in the UK are against the EU migrants not the refugees.