"The '06 NBA Playoffs"

johnsteed

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Some of Norm Van Lier's career achievements with the BULLS...


1971-NBA-All-Defense (2nd)
1972-NBA-All-Defense (2nd)
1973-NBA-All-Defense (2nd)
1974-NBA-All-Defense (1st)
1974-NBA-All-NBA (2nd)
1975-NBA-All-Defense (2nd)
1976-NBA-All-Defense (1st)
1977-NBA-All-Defense (1st)
1978-NBA-All-Defense (2nd)



He also led the league in assists in '71, although this wasn't with the BULLS, but with the Cincinnati Royals. Everything done with the BULLS (above) is highlighted in "Dark Red".


While defense should gain him BIG props, I don't see him being ahead of Bob Love or Jerry Sloan. Both of them were equally impressive defensive players, especially Sloan.


Jerry Sloan


1969-NBA-All-Defense (1st)
1970-NBA-All-Defense (2nd)
1971-NBA-All-Defense (2nd)
1972-NBA-All-Defense (1st)
1974-NBA-All-Defense (1st)
1975-NBA-All-Defense (1st)



Bob Love


1971-NBA-All-NBA (2nd)
1972-NBA-All-Defense (2nd)
1972-NBA-All-NBA (2nd)
1974-NBA-All-Defense (2nd)
1975-NBA-All-Defense (2nd)



I can't argue that Van Lier was a better defensive player over Love, Love was a gifted scorer, to which Van Lier wasn't. Van Lier is like Jason Kidd or Gary Payton in their primes on "D", although he was far from ever being a complete player like either one of those. He was kinda' like Bruce Bowen, with point-guard skills. Certainly a great combo.


Because you got me started - and I can't stop once I get started - I'm going to come up with a list of the Top-10 greatest BULLS of All-Time.



#1
Michael Jordan​


I can't go-on-and-on-and-on-and-then-some-more about him, but EVERYONE knows his worth even if they despise him.



#2
Scottie Pippen​


The most balanced player in the early '90s. I used to think that he was totally overrated, and I couldn't have been so wrong. Pippen was not a "winner" in the M.J. sense of the word, but he did alright in the position he was pushed into. Great defensive player, maybe the best All-Time for a small forward. Like Magic Johnson, had the ability to play all 5 positions on the court. Walt Frazier is and was more adored for his ability, but dare I say this, Pippen was AT LEAST his equal. But... thank M.J. for getting in his head and not allowing him to relax and play a soft game. M.J. couldn't motivate Kwame Brown, but he sure brought the best out of Pippen.



#3
Jerry Sloan​


Based certainly on his leadership, tough and hard-nosed defense, and decent scorer to boot. Probably an even better coach than player, certainly any team would have wanted his services. The best compliment I could possibly give him, is saying that he played defense like Bobby Jones, with a scoring touch.



#4
Chet Walker​


He was probably the most terrific scorer in BULLS history, next to M.J. I know how good of scorers that Pippen, Theus, and Love were, but Walker was a premier go-to-guy. To say it best, he falls somewhere between a Jimmy King and a healthy Bernard King. How about this, a more famous version of Charles Scott?



#5
Bob Love​


Anything but a great passer. But a gifted scorer, not far behind Chet Walker, more on the Pippen scale. I think he was a little too 2-dimensional - if he could be called that - although that other dimension was his defense.



#6
Artis Gilmore​


Fantastic ABA player, who had a hard time having that reputation carry over to the NBA. The guy was a 22 PPG/12 RPG player when he first came to the BULLS. Always an All-Star, never really the star. Warrants being in the HOF. Never could win over the Chicago faithful, but he was by far it's greatest center. Often overlooked, might have been the strongest man in the game during his run. Intimidating...



#7
Reggie Theus​


Most BULLS fans will think of Theus, when they think of the pre-Jordan era. He even dated M.J.'s wife, prior to M.J. meeting her (she sure gets around). This one time model has got to be one of the most underrated players the game has even known. An awful defender (like most players in today's game), but everything else was exceptional. A gifted passer, even if he took as many shots as he did. A wonderful jump-shooter/slasher, he retired with 19,050 points and almost 7,000 assists. What's odd about that, was that he was able to average 18.6 PPG in 36 minutes per game with the NETS in his last year!!! I can't understand why he couldn't find any takers for another year, before eventually deciding to play overseas instead.



#8
Horace Grant​


I'm not a Grant fan, so it pains me to include him on this list. He was though, a very gifted defensive player, and a HUGE part of the early '90s BULLS. Most observers will often point to Pippen's emergence as being the reason the BULLS finally got over the hump to win their first championship, but I would argue that it was he AND Grant. No more, no less important than the other. Grant was a wonderful rebounder, although nothing like Rodman. He had some nice low-post skills, and had a good touch 15-feet in.



#9
Norm Van Lier​


Perhaps I'm underrating him here, but it's not for the sake of argument. I love his career defense numbers, and he meant a lot to that Chicago team in '75, that may very well have been the best team in the league that year (although the Golden State WARRIORS were the eventual champions that year). Very impressive few years with the BULLS, but enough to knock-off those mentioned above? I for one don't think so...



#10
Toni Kukoc​


I could have gone with a number of pretty worthy candidates for this final spot. Guy Rodgers comes to mind, although he only played for the BULLS for a brief time. Orlando Woolridge is one of the better scorers who's passed through the BULLS system, and although he was pretty darn good with them, he really became better AFTER his brief run with the BULLS. Dave Greenwood? Decent, but hardly Top-10. So I'm stuck Toni Kukoc in the tenth spot. But you know what, Kukoc was better than he'll be remembered.


First, it's important to note that he's often viewed as being absolutely soft. He certainly wasn't tough, but soft? Nope. He was basically the punching bag for the other BULLS players. Which was a shame, because he was a truly gifted player (and still is in spurts). He could pass very well, shoot like a cheap-man's Dirk Nowitzky, rebound fairly well, and play average defense. He didn't hurt his team by being on the floor. He could play any position, and he was a shade under being a 7-footer. While Jerry Krause certainly saw something wonderful with this talent, the Jordan/Pippen/Jackson regime never cared to find out, and never cared to develop it. It's kind of like a reverse Boris Diaw situation, although Kukoc had a HUGE reputation prior to joining the NBA. Unlike Diaw, Kukoc was given lots of opportunities to succeed in his first couple of years. He began to wilt at times during the BULLS run, because he teammates weren't exactly looking for him. Diaw, was unused in Atlanta, comes to Phoenix, gets the right teammates who want him to succeed, and he makes good on his great strengths.


Kukoc stayed on a couple years after the BULLS dynasty had ended, and was an 18 PPG player in that time. He did enough to be an overlooked contributer to those great BULLS teams. Although it'll never be remembered, he was the 3rd scoring option on those teams, the 3rd main facilitator, and like Pippen, the 2nd do-everything-at-random-positions.


I can easily put Elton Brand on this list, and he may very well finish 2nd All-Time amongst this list, or at the very least finish in the Top-3. I can't though place him here, because he only played 2 seasons with the BULLS. If I included Brand, I'd easily put Dennis Rodman on this list. At least with Rodman, he was arguably still the best defensive power-forward in the game (even if the league didn't want to recognize this fact), and he was a key cog to a winning team.


I could have included someone like George Gervin, because he also had played for the BULLS. I can't though, because he was pretty much done when he played with them at the tail end of his storied career.


Quick story on one of the most dominant players who never stayed with the BULLS. The late Brian Williams - later known as Bison Dele - probably put on one of the most dominating shows I could ever recall from a center the year he played with the BULLS versus the JAZZ in the finals. Although his numbers won't reveal anything, having him on the team at that time, you could see how in his brief spurts of playing, he crushed the JAZZ. I'm not just saying this, I've watched it again on video years after the fact. Aside from all of his head-games, and problems on-and-off the court, the man was amazingly gifted. One of the greatest talents wasted, based purely on the fact that he really disliked playing, and was never a basketball player. Had he loved playing, he could have been a great one.


He was mysteriously murdered by his brother (or so they say), a few years ago at sea. He was often regarded as the games brightest individuals, esoteric and eccentric, and an incredible human being.


Steed

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tennis_balls

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great list, Steed

mine would have the Rodman at #6 though it may be true that without Jordan's intimidation and Phil Jackson's mind games, Rodman would have crashed and burned.
 

johnsteed

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tennis_balls


mine would have the Rodman at #6 though it may be true that without Jordan's intimidation and Phil Jackson's mind games, Rodman would have crashed and burned.


If we're talking about based on these player's career achievements with all the teams they've played for, I'd bump Artis Gilmore up to the 3rd spot, and Rodman in the 4th spot.


I can understand how many NBA insiders could disagree with that sort of move, however Rodman's achievements have been exceptional.


Despite playing in only 2 All-Star games ('90,'91), still did a host of great things.


1989-NBA-All-Defense (1st)
1990-NBA-All-Defense (1st)
1990-NBA-Defensive Player Of The Year
1991-NBA-All-Defense (1st)
1991-NBA-Defensive Player Of The Year
1992-NBA-All-Defense (1st)
1992-NBA-All-NBA (3rd)
1993-NBA-All-Defense (1st)

1994-NBA-All-Defense (2nd)
1995-NBA-All-Defense (1st)
1995-NBA-All-NBA (3rd)

1996-NBA-All-Defense (1st)


He also was a key member on 5 Championship teams. He was NOT a scorer, he was aloof at times, and a distraction. But I think on those BULLS teams, he was actually a great distraction, taking some of the spotlight off of Jordan, Jackson, and Pippen at different times. Despite what the media made of him, he really helped that team on so many levels, and I seriously doubt he gutted that team in any way. If anything, he probably centered-it (in a crazy way).


He should be a HOFer, because he was one of the best defensive players (if not THE best) of his era, a winner, a big draw, and a well-respected athlete on the court (just not off of it).


Getting back to why I left Rodman off, was nothing more than his only being there for 3-years. Yes, he was big for them, and maybe I'm wrong on his not making the list, but it's hard knocking down players who weren't in as good of a situation, or in a better position to win.


My question to you "tennis_balls", is do you think of Rodman as a HOFer?


Love the feedback! :)


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johnsteed

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My question to you "tennis_balls", is do you think of Rodman as a HOFer?


Love the feedback! :)


This question, and one more.


Who would you select as your All-Time greatest starting 5? :)


Steed

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tennis_balls

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johnsteed said:
***
My question to you "tennis_balls", is do you think of Rodman as a HOFer?***

The guy banged Madonna and Carmen Electra!!! (And he worked-in Madonna during a championship series at high-altitude!!!!!) So he's a shoe-in for the shagging HOF! (no word on whether he nailed Emma Peel but I certainly wouldn't put it past the man)

I gotta admit I'm a big Rodman fan so of course I'd vote him in the HOF. I really dug his first book. (and I rarely read anything that doesn't have a banner ad flashing above) I thought his show on MTV was innovative too.

I agree that he sort of galvanized those Bulls teams as he kept the focus on keeping Dennis in-line which kept Pippen's ego from causing problems and probably gave Jordan some breaks from the hounding media.

And I'll be forever grateful to the Bulls for denying that thug Malone, the Utah Jazz and their true-believer fans a championship.

So I say Rodman is a no-brainer for HOF. He's arguably the best defender/rebounder ever and he has the rings to back it up.

I do wish he'd just enjoy it now and go away quietly, but that's never been his M.O.
 

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tennis_balls

The guy banged Madonna and Carmen Electra!!! (And he worked-in Madonna during a championship series at high-altitude!!!!!) So he's a shoe-in for the shagging HOF! (no word on whether he nailed Emma Peel but I certainly wouldn't put it past the man)


I wouldn't put it past him either.


So I say Rodman is a no-brainer for HOF. He's arguably the best defender/rebounder ever and he has the rings to back it up.


Precisely why he should be in the HOF. Next to Jordan, he was the biggest name in sports for a few years, and combining that with his accomplishments, he should get in, even if he won't.


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tennis_balls

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i guess i'll be rooting for Dallas although I'd have to pick Miami to win the championship. I give the edge to Miami based mostly on Pat Riley and the experience of the Miami role players.

I still feel strongly that Stackhouse is a net negative for any club despite his impressive skills. I thought Stack made a lot of poor decisions during the Phoenix series and Nowitky carried the team regardless. I think Riley will find a way to get inside the head(s) of Stackhouse and/or Jason Terry.

I'll be rooting for Dallas as I'd love to see Dirk win a championship, but I'm really not jonesing to watch this series. I did place a winning bet on Phoenix today. I bet on the first half. Apparently I wasn't alone as the odds on that bet were horrible. ($5.00 to win $8.70)
 

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I can't disagree with you on your points made about the MAVERICKS, except one. I think the Jerry Stackhouse of today who is coming off the bench in '06 compared to when he was a high-scoring starter a few years ago, are two different people. He is still explosive and an unstoppable scoring machine when needed, and I think after these past two years, he understands what he needs to do. I don't feel his game and how he was used match-up well with the SUNS, and I think he'll do more good than bad against the HEAT. My selecting him for having a big series, is a HUGE gamble though.


With Nowitzky, I think he'll have a bitch of time and fold under pressure. Am I rooting against him? No, because I've always liked him and his game. Why do I think he'll fold? That's easy, it'll come down to the SHAQ factor. Heck, throw in the Mourning factor as well. There's too much brute strength (and healthy... unlike Duncan in Round 2), and they'll find a way to get to him. I actually think that had it been the CLIPPERS vs. the MAVS in the conference finals, that Nowitzky's horrible defense and fierceness would have been nullified by Elton Brand's game. Nowitzky is big, lanky, and somewhat strong, but I don't think of him as a tough player. I hope he proves me wrong. I don't see that happening though.


I'll say this, if Rasheed Wallace, with an awesome inside game, who's more dynamic of a player than the more big-named Dirk, couldn't get it done, neither will the big German.


Dwayne Wade is REALLY going to go off this series. I think the HEAT will do it in 6 games, and win at home. I dislike SHAQ, but I'm glad he's going this finesse route rather than getting called for easy fouls. Eric Dampier has nothing on him, and SHAQ will make a point of this early in the series.


DALLAS was designed to take-out the SPURS, which they did. I don't think their game will match-up well with the HEAT. The only way for the MAVS to win is to get at least 2 monster games from Stackhouse, who I consider to be the X-Factor. For the HEAT, who I don't see having any problems winning this series, the X-Factor will fall on Antoine Walker (who played with the MAVS just a couple seasons ago).


I'm pissed-off that my two favorites have faded this past round, so I'm not really excited here-on-out. I don't like either team. :(


Steed

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dreamtheatre

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sabonis

i am a great sabonis fan. i read all the treads praising him. But you do not mention a very important thing Sabonis played in the world championship in 1986 and in the olympics in 1988 against David Robinson. and he simply devastated Robinson. You praise his passing skills but in 1986 he was so athletic that he dunked many times over robinson.He blocked david's shots repeatedly simply he was too good for david. except for him i have seen only shaq to dominate opponent centers in such a manner. If a healthy sabonis had come to portland in 1986 cliif robinson, drexler and porter would be carrying at least five championship rings. I literally cried sometimes when i watched him defend shaq. if he were in his prime a shaq-sabonis match up would be terrific to watch and i believe sabas would be the winner.

gallis and petrovic were great players too. i had the previlige to watch their live performance. Their styles were opposite but gallis was simply unstoppable. At slightly over 6 feet he was at least as good as hornacek.Petrovic was probably a better overall player but Sabas was a megastar.

İ hope Turkish players Hedo turkoglu and Mehmet okur reach the play offs this year
 

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dreamtheatre

İ hope Turkish players Hedo turkoglu and Mehmet okur reach the play offs this year...


Unless they have access to a time-machine, I don't like their chances of making this year's playoffs. :cool:


i am a great sabonis fan. i read all the treads praising him. But you do not mention a very important thing Sabonis played in the world championship in 1986 and in the olympics in 1988 against David Robinson. and he simply devastated Robinson. You praise his passing skills but in 1986 he was so athletic that he dunked many times over robinson.He blocked david's shots repeatedly simply he was too good for david. except for him i have seen only shaq to dominate opponent centers in such a manner. If a healthy sabonis had come to portland in 1986 cliif robinson, drexler and porter would be carrying at least five championship rings. I literally cried sometimes when i watched him defend shaq. if he were in his prime a shaq-sabonis match up would be terrific to watch and i believe sabas would be the winner.


Hmmm, I think I gave him a HUGE amount of praise, and put his game into high enough detail, but I digress...


I praised his passing skills, because above all else, they deserved to be praised. He directed the offense probably better than any other big who's ever played the game. I'm not surprised that he dunked on Robinson, as I've seen Hakeem, Ewing, Shaq, and others dunk on Robinson before. Robinson, was great, and was HIGHLY overrated.


I agree that had Sabonis come to the NBA minus MANY knee injuries, he probably would have been the most dominant center with Hakeem at that time - maybe better - we'll never know.


For the record, Sabonis did a pretty good job on two bad knees defending SHAQ. When SHAQ emerged as the games most dominant player (post-BULLS era circa '99 and on) with the possible exception of Tim Duncan, and most of legendary centers had faded-away, Sabonis did the best defensive job on O'Neil, even better than Robinson (SHAQ has stated so).


I agree that the Portland Trailblazers would have won at least 2 championships had they had a healthy Sabonis back in the prime of his game. They'd still have to fend off a pretty darned good LAKERS squad, a fiery PISTONS squad, and the BULLS. I think they could have taken away a championship away from each of those squads.


Above all else, Sabonis was the most skilled big man at his peak and of his era, a man in his prime could run the court (he's 7'3"!!!), a legendary passer, and a man with incredibly soft hands. Bill Walton has said as much, so have other greats. I don't discount what they were saying.


Sabonis and O'Neil's careers crossed-paths, but they're of a slightly different generation of centers.


gallis and petrovic were great players too. i had the previlige to watch their live performance. Their styles were opposite but gallis was simply unstoppable. At slightly over 6 feet he was at least as good as hornacek.Petrovic was probably a better overall player but Sabas was a megastar.


I'm a Jeff Hornacek fan, but from everything I know, he can't be compared to Gallis. Gallis was a European superstar, that likely would has translated to perennial star in the NBA. He would have been great, similar to Petrovic, but a completely different game. Petrovic was an exceptional player, and was highly skilled as you said, but Sabonis was a once in a lifetime type of player who by all accounts was better overall.


Interesting insight though, and it's interesting that you would have seen these guys play in Europe. People think that European basketball has only been good for the past 10-years or so, but that's completely wrong. It's only getting better for sure, but they'll always had great players there who were just never discovered, or if they did come over, they were misused.


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dreamtheatre

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1987 europe championship finals and 1989 europe championship semifinals. greece vs ussr. both times the squads are nearly the same. both times greece wins while ussr is the great favourite of everybody(including me. i was about 13 -15 years old then and cried every time sabas's team was beaten)

USSR sabas, volkov(atlanta hawks), marchulienis , kurtinaitis (another great european player), khomucius , walters , belostenny , tikhonenko ( at 2,06 meters he played for major teams till 2000 or so but never became the player i thought he would. but he became really famous :). He lost an airball to tyron bogues:) at 1986 finals)

Greece: yannakis , fassoulas , kristodolou and gallis . The fifth man i can not even remember. no reserves. remove gallis and put hornacek. let me tell the result. Two more ussr championships.

This might seem a stupid comparison but gallis was the heart of every team he played for. The ussr squad above beat USA in 1988 . USA had david robinson, mitch ritchmond, danny manning, .... .

by the way i am not so pessimistic about my player's play off chances. Utah and Orlando are good teams and have a good chance of making play offs.

all europe team

centers (5)

Sabonis
Radja
Divac

Forwards (4)

nowitzki
gasol

Forwards(3)

stojakovic
kukoc
danilovic
karnishovas
krilenko

Guards (2)

gallis
hedo

guards (1)

petrovic
marchulienis
tony parker

sorry for the spelling mistakes
 

dreamtheatre

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and i will bet my last penny on dallas . they will beat miami 4-2.

comparing dirk to bird (my one time hero) is not comparing a star to a superstar.

it is comparing two superstars.

bird always played with great players . i will never go as far as criticizing bird's talents. i just wanna say that dirk is a great player and deserves more respect.

one thing is certain that he deserved the mvp reward this year.

comparing him and bird the only great difference is birds superior passing skills. dirk is a tough player too. he is a great shooter. grabs as much rebounds as bird did. he is still not as good as bird but not so far away either.
 

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dreamtheatre

by the way i am not so pessimistic about my player's play off chances. Utah and Orlando are good teams and have a good chance of making play offs.


That's fine, but both of those teams didn't even make THIS year's playoffs. You were talking about this year's playoffs. I like their chances next year ('06-07), but the FINALS start later on in the week so there's only 2 teams left.


comparing him and bird the only great difference is birds superior passing skills. dirk is a tough player too. he is a great shooter. grabs as much rebounds as bird did. he is still not as good as bird but not so far away either.


Bird is often considered the greatest small forward of All-Time. Some people consider him the greatest (not many, but some), and I can't put him much lower than Top-5 on my All-Time list. Big Dirk is extremely talented, and has a better long-distance shot (check out their lifetime 3 pt %'s). Neither Dirk nor Bird are/were great defensive players, although I'd give Bird the edge because he seemed to play some when it mattered most. I like the comparisons between the two, and it's not so unreasonable anymore. Dirk can hang with Bird, but I don't think he's on the same level... yet. He has to do this for a little longer, and he has to become a winner. He seems like a completely different player in these playoffs and I'm rooting for him.


Is Dirk a tough player? I'm not sold on that yet. We'll see in the Finals. Again, I hope he steps up. I've always liked him. You're right to suggest that he doesn't get enough respect. He doesn't, but if he wins it with this squad, he'll be inching closer to the Bird comparisions, making it a reality.


Was Dirk the MVP? It could have gone to a few players this year, and I have no problem with Nash winning it. If we're talking about the best player in the game, I'm going to have to go with Kobe Bryant. I know LeBron and Wade are younger and are incredible talents, but so is Kobe, and he'll be awesome for several more years still. He's still young!


Great list by the way. :) I've always hoped that the European players would do well, and the landscape has certainly changed for the better over the past few years. I think the NBA is better for it. Dino Radja sure put up some nice numbers in his brief stay in the NBA.


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dreamtheatre

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i have made an all time white players list. all of them at their peak form and only the ones i have actually watched.


john stockton
chris mullin
larry bird
dirk nowitzki
arvydas sabonis

reserves

steve nash
predrag stojakovic
andrei krilenko
toni kukoc
yao ming
emmanuel ginobili
pau gasol
mark price
ilgauskas or vlade divac


do you think this team has any chance against a jordan, barkley, drexler ,kobe , shaq, malone, duncan , kemp (i believe he is as good as duncan or malone), mourning, iverson team?

i believe they have. it would be fun to watch.
 

dreamtheatre

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i have forgotten a key player.

kevin mchale of course. he would be great help at the power forward. and i should have included hornacek too.
 

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I must say, that the idea is an interesting one. But Yao Ming is not white/Caucasian, he's Asian from the heart of China.


I'd ultimately have to give the edge to the African-American squad, because of the Jordan factor. Heck, even for the Kobe Bryant factor. They would have their way against that defensively inferior squad. Only Andrei Kirilenko and Sabonis at his peak could be considered defensive stoppers, with most of the others being great steals artists (but that doesn't mean that they're incredible defensively as in 1-on-1).


In a short series, it could go either way. It's not a racial thing, but I happen to feel that the guys in the All-White line-up would move the ball around better on offense and play better as a team.


I would have Barkley and Malone coming off the bench, only in spurts. There games get in the way of winning basketball, as far as I'm concerned. You mentioned that Kemp was just as good as the other power-forwards mentioned, and you know what, I concur.


Shawn Kemp was not a +20 PPG player, he was an 18 PPG player who played to win. He was incredibly explosive, strong, he could sky (4.5 foot vertical as I recall), he played great defense, and at his peak, Dennis Rodman said that he was the most difficult player he ever had to guard! That's high praise. Kemp could have been a HOFer, but it just didn't work out. I'm not saying he had a greater career than the other great power-forward, what I am saying is that at his peak he was right there.


I would never want Allen Iverson on my team. I love watching him play, I love his scoring ability, and he's a better passer than he gets credit for. He just doesn't mix well on a team with so many scoring options. Drexler did a little bit of everything, and as far as I'm concerned, was one of the most underrated players in the game's history. Even in his final year with the ROCKETS before calling it quits, he could still put up fantastic numbers across the board. Although it's never said, a far better player than a George Gervin.


If you included all of the All-Time greats, the decision would tip even further into the African-American squads favor. Think: Oscar Robertson, Chamberlain, Abdul-Jabbar, Magic Johnson, Elgin Baylor, Nate Thurmond, Dr. J, Moses Malone, to name a few...


The great White players that could still be included would be Jerry West, Bob Cousy, Rick Barry, Bill Walton (at his healthy peak), Bob Petit, ect...


The thing is, if these teams played in a best-of-7 games series, you can only have a team 12 men deep, and you can only start 5. Despite what many would believe, it might be a draw. Again, I'd give the slight edge to the African-American squad because of Jordan.


Steed

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dreamtheatre

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Joined
Apr 20, 2006
Location
Turkey
great post Steed .thank you

and i agree with you completely. The Jordan factor is something to reckon with.

I always prayed for his team to lose (except for the 1991 lakers - bulls finals)
but of course my prayers always went unanswered.

Of all the teams they played agaianst at the finals (lakers, suns, supersonics, blazers ) only Jazz gave me the slightest hope that Jordan could be beaten. But god was always with Jordan . When it mattered none dared stop him. I always wanted him to lose when he played but now i miss him very much.

And once again i agree with you that among the currently active players Kobe is the second best after Jordan. People used to say tracy mccrady was a more dangerous offensive weapon than Kobe and i always laughed at the idea(i still do)

Have you ever watched Sabonis at his prime. (1985-1988)

I have a few videos of him shattering rims, blocking robinson's two consecutive shots, dunking over robinson and so on and i could send them to you.

By the way Sabas was often rejected from games because of punching opponets. Well i would not want to recieve a punch from him:)
 

tennis_balls

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Mar 18, 2006
Location
Albuquerque, NM
book recommendation

Link Removed (invalid URL)

this book is from 1994, but it's a great read for Euro hoops enthusiasts. it's of particular interest now as the writer follows Mike Di'Antoni (Suns coach) while he coached an Italian team. The writer is a bit of a tool IMHO and goes way overboard trying to schmooze any player with a hot wife or girlfriend to the point where you start laughing every time he does it. The writer isn't a total push-over though and he does take some shots at some of the American players who are playing a year or two in Italy for some cash. (Bob McAdoo in particular as I recall)
 

johnsteed

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Apr 24, 2005
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dreamtheatre

Have you ever watched Sabonis at his prime. (1985-1988)

I have a few videos of him shattering rims, blocking robinson's two consecutive shots, dunking over robinson and so on and i could send them to you.


I've only seen a bit of him in his prime, and from what I saw of him, it was on a lousy quality tape. Over the years, I've read countless critiques and studies on the domination and rise of his game throughout Europe, so that's pretty much all I'm left with to judge him by (and whatever tools he had left to work with in his final years with the Trailblazers). Something that I may or may have not mentioned before, was that Bill Walton had seen him play in his prime, and said that had he come over to the NBA in his prime, he could have been the center of that time. Those are steep praises, and ironically, both greats had succumbed to injuries that took their peaks away from them, before either one REALLY peaked.


I always prayed for his team to lose (except for the 1991 lakers - bulls finals)
but of course my prayers always went unanswered.


Oddly enough, I was a big Magic Johnson fan, and I was very much rooting against Michael Jordan in the '91 Finals. It was painful watching this man control the game, and although he missed shots, I swear it seemed as though he didn't. He's the only player I watch in any sport, that looks like the game was scripted for him to look great, constantly prevailing when the other team looks as though they may have figured him out, but he'll win.


I really disliked Jordan in those days, and I did a complete turn-around when he decided to quit. People were laughing at how poorly he had done in Double-AA baseball (ChiSox farm club), and kept talking about how Penny Hardaway and SHAQ would be the new dynasty. Although that never became a reality, it sure seemed that they were pretty close to achieving that goal. I missed his game, and I knew that based on everything I saw of the man, that I knew he could get his game back. By that, I wanted him back in the game, and I realized how important and how great he was. I decided that if a player was this special, it's a once-in-a-lifetime opportunity to start enjoying the journey. Frankly, I look back now, and wonder why I didn't like him in the first place. He was the perfect basketball player as far as I can see.


An odd story about when Jordan was with the Double-AA club, he and (then minor-league rising star) Ray Durham (who's only like 5-10) were seeing who could jump higher. Now, of course Jordan can jump higher, given that he was a GREAT leaper and he has about 8-inches on Durham (and an impressive wingspan with big hands). But based on vertical alone, Durham took a bet and beat-out Jordan's vertical. I guess that says more about Durham's athletic ability than Jordan's, but I was stunned when I read that.


I was listening to the "Dan Patrick Show" on ESPN radio the other day, and he had made an excellent point about how well Jordan would score in today's game. He averaged over 37 PPG back in '86-87, playing in the grind-it-out style made famous in the East. At that time, it was okay to "hand-check" on defense. That was about the only thing that slowed Jordan at the height of his scoring days. Patrick claimed that in today's wide-open game, Jordan could very well average over 50 PPG (as Wilt had done roughly 45 years ago). That might be a bit of a stretch, but averaging over 40 PPG would not out-of-the-question, nor would the occasional +80 PPG throughout any given season.

People used to say tracy mccrady was a more dangerous offensive weapon than Kobe and i always laughed at the idea(i still do)


That was the debate, up until a couple years ago when the Draft Class of '03 showed that they were set to take over the majority of the game's attention on who the next great one will be. I'll still go with Kobe, even over LeBron (and that will sound crazy to many). T-Mac is quite electric and smooth at the same time. He can play pretty good defense, but sometimes I question his wil and his enthusiasm for the good of the game. T-Mac is as talented as Kobe, but Kobe is just better. Funny to imagine, but I'm not sure if T-Mac has even turned 27-years old as I'm writing this! I really dislike T-Mac, but for his sake, I hope that he can get his health issues straightened-out. Although he's an awesome force, who thinks about T-Mac these days? That's how much his stock has dropped, fairly or not.


I always wanted him to lose when he played but now i miss him very much.


It makes me feel sad how you put it that way. I wonder if many people will feel this way about Barry Bonds 10-years from now.


It's funny, but I remember when the '98 NBA lock-out hit, I heard lots of talking about whether or not the BULLS ownership would bring their great team back. I remember talking to a friend of mine, and he wanted Jordan to retire once and for all. I asked him why felt that way? His reasoning was simple. He felt that he was sick of seeing Jordan, and wanted someone else to win for a change. He wanted one of the young guys to emerge and become the next great one.


I could never understand that line-of-thinking. I've always felt that to become the best, truly become the best, you have to go through the best. If no player at that time was up to the test, than they weren't worthy enough to dethrone the Jordan era. And no one did. :notworthy


I have a few videos of him shattering rims, blocking robinson's two consecutive shots, dunking over robinson and so on and i could send them to you.


I'd love to get my hands on those!!! :thumbsup: :notworthy :)


tennis_balls


this book is from 1994, but it's a great read for Euro hoops enthusiasts. it's of particular interest now as the writer follows Mike Di'Antoni (Suns coach) while he coached an Italian team.


I'd love to buy that book. It sounds a bit jaded, but it could be highly entertaining. Michael Ray Richardson seems to be the perfect example of someone who did everything wrong in the NBA, and turned everything around in Italy. I have a documentary of him back home in Canada, titled, "What Ever Happened To Michael Ray?" It wasn't a great documentary, and I'm still wondering out of all the people they could have done a documentary on, why him? Nevertheless, it's still enjoyable. :)


Steed

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Daffy

Experienced Member
Joined
May 2, 2005
Location
Dallas,TX
Mavs win Finals in 5 games...Shaq will be a none factor...Dirk will run wild...Howard will smother Wade.

All of Dallas' dragons are behind them (Spurs, Suns)...Heat will try to play half-court...Mavs will run them ragged.

Pistons would have been even easier...East cannot play with West.

the dUck
 
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