Poll Source of Wealth poll: How do the SOW requirements affect you?

How do the SOW requirements affect you?

  • I don't like the intrusiveness and play at casinos that DO NOT require SOW.

    Votes: 61 37.4%
  • I don't like the intrusiveness but still play the same at casinos that require SOW.

    Votes: 17 10.4%
  • I don't like the intrusiveness but still play at casinos that require SOW - but play less.

    Votes: 21 12.9%
  • I don't mind. I play the same.

    Votes: 9 5.5%
  • I don't mind, and I play more now.

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • I've never been asked and I am in the EU/UK

    Votes: 37 22.7%
  • I've never been asked and I am outside the EU/UK

    Votes: 18 11.0%

  • Total voters
    163
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colinsunderland

RIP Colin
Joined
Jan 28, 2016
Location
uk
So, my thoughts.

I don't have a problem with AML's. They are there for a reason, I was dealing with them over 20 years ago, and online gambling establishments have been requesting them for around that length of time, that I know of. They aren't new.

What is new, is the UKGC finally doing something about the casinos not following the law. Then the knee jerk reaction of non UK based license holders, who go over the top as they don't understand what are pretty simple regulations to follow. If they employed or paid for UK legal advice, they wouldn't do what they are. There is a reason Entain, Flutter et all don't do SoW checks on their customers every 5 minutes, and it certainly isn't that they are breaking any laws, they understand what they need to do. Yes there have been UKGC penalties against some of them, but there will always be mistakes, and considering the millions of players they have, there will be odd ones slipping through the cracks. If their approach was so wrong, then they would have been heavily sanctioned long before now.

Then you have the side where casinos LIE to customers, and say that they cannot pay your winnings before you supply the SoW documentation. Then customers have to fight to get paid. That is disgusting and any casino doing that should be sanctioned heavily as that is just theft. Obviously if the NCA have told them not to pay, then they won't be sanctions, but we have seen on here numerous times, accredited casinos too, telling that lie, then backing down after a fight. If the NCA had told them not to pay, then they couldn't back down, so what they were attempting to do, was steal player funds.

Then you have the massively over the top endless requests for documents, sometimes which the customer cannot supply, like, as an example, third party bank statements. I've just glanced through one of my online statements, in May I have had incoming and outgoing transfers from both my daughters, 4 friends and my sister. At certain casinos, if I supply that bank statement, the next request will be 3 months statements from them along with proof of ID. How the hell can I supply bank statements from other people, and more to the point, even if I did ask them, and they say no, then I cannot force them to do so. But the casino will then say they can't pay without them, effectively stealing funds. There is also the GDPR aspect of that, in that, without consent, they cannot legally process a third parties data.

It is all a complete joke, and it's going to destroy the industry, especially in the UK, and just leave the massive groups.
 

colinsunderland

RIP Colin
Joined
Jan 28, 2016
Location
uk
That is something I have already told any online casino/sportsbook who has(will) ask/ed for a SOW.
On top of that, thanks for SOW, whoever set it in motion, I will lose much less money online.

No land-based bookmaker or casino has ever requested my SOW, and KYC is limited to displaying your ID card if you win and tax must be payed.
I don't know which country you are from, but UK landbased do do them, when they feel there is a risk, or possible responsible gambling issues.
 

Mr_Slot5

Senior Member
Joined
May 6, 2019
Location
North West
Colin, I agree with everything you’ve said...the issues summarised nicely and it has been highlighted why the current system needs to be improved with regards to how some casinos handle it.
 

electronictonic

Senior Member
Joined
Jun 23, 2013
Location
UK
Sick and tired of them, playing less because of them, thinking of just saying to fuck with UK market and playing on a Bitcoin casino with a VPN, and not have to deal with it anymore.
 

snorky510238

Chief glockenspiel maker
Joined
Jan 12, 2018
Location
Uk
As has been stated many times previously the easy way to solve all this, is for Casinos to ask for all requirements before the player can deposit.

This is where the hypocrisy comes in. They don’t have to do that by law and I wonder why? AML should surely be stamped out from the beginning, not when a player has deposited 10k.

The argument is, (from the Casino’s side) if that was law then it would deter players from joining so the law, (which as I have pointed out above, doesn’t make any logical sense) let’s them do checks at certain points and I wonder why?

Well, that way it allows everyone to have their cake and eat it. It makes it look like governing bodies are doing their bit correctly by implementing rules and reg’s. It makes it look like Casinos are doing their bit, whilst of course ensuring that players are not put off from signing up, which of course would lead to a loss in tax revenue for the government so plenty of hidden (not very well) agenda and ulterior motives going on here. Wheels within wheels folks, that’s all it is.
 

Scott1baird

Senior Member
MM
Joined
Oct 16, 2018
Location
Isle of Bute Scotland
Interesting poll! If I was a U.K. player I would be dubious playing anywhere that didn’t ask for SOW though. Let’s see what the poll says.
Not once been asked for a Sow from any UK casino. The only one I got requested was from ABC and that was just the mandatory £1400 withdrawal limit. Which was held against me till it was completed.
 

colinsunderland

RIP Colin
Joined
Jan 28, 2016
Location
uk
As has been stated many times previously the easy way to solve all this, is for Casinos to ask for all requirements before the player can deposit.

This is where the hypocrisy comes in. They don’t have to do that by law and I wonder why? AML should surely be stamped out from the beginning, not when a player has deposited 10k.

The argument is, (from the Casino’s side) if that was law then it would deter players from joining so the law, (which as I have pointed out above, doesn’t make any logical sense) let’s them do checks at certain points and I wonder why?

Well, that way it allows everyone to have their cake and eat it. It makes it look like governing bodies are doing their bit correctly by implementing rules and reg’s. It makes it look like Casinos are doing their bit, whilst of course ensuring that players are not put off from signing up, which of course would lead to a loss in tax revenue for the government so plenty of hidden (not very well) agenda and ulterior motives going on here. Wheels within wheels folks, that’s all it is.

You cannot do a AML SoW before a customer makes any transactions. How can you evaluate risk before you see how they do anything?
 

snorky510238

Chief glockenspiel maker
Joined
Jan 12, 2018
Location
Uk
Well instead of asking post deposit where did the funds come from? Ask pre deposit, where are they going to come from?
 

colinsunderland

RIP Colin
Joined
Jan 28, 2016
Location
uk
Well instead of asking post deposit where did the funds come from? Ask pre deposit, where are they going to come from?
Because thats asking someone to predict the future and wouldn't solve anything. How would that work? Show a bank account with £1000 and the casino decides you can play with that. Then you deposit £500 in a different casino, win £10000, and once you hit the £1000 the first casino said you could deposit, you can't deposit more unless you go through another SoW, which defeats the object of the first one.
Or you do the same, then spend the grand, and pay in a grand in your illegal earnings, use that in the casino instead. They would have to do a SoW on every deposit in that case.

Or the current system where you make transactions and (this is what they should be doing) if they feel you are a high risk of being involved in illegal activity, then request a SoW and check the funds you have used were legitimate.
 

snorky510238

Chief glockenspiel maker
Joined
Jan 12, 2018
Location
Uk
You have to show payslips to prove your earnings or where the £1,000 has come from. SOW is different to AML (isn’t it?) but I see how the 2 are very connected. SOW is primarily to see if gambling is an affordable commodity or so I thought and secondly that the funds are legit.

Perhaps I am wrong there. Either way, don’t you think £10k is a very large amount to accept before checks are done?
 

johnnymcc1966

Meister Member
Joined
Dec 12, 2017
Location
United Kingdom
You have to show payslips to prove your earnings or where the £1,000 has come from. SOW is different to AML (isn’t it?) but I see how the 2 are very connected. SOW is primarily to see if gambling is an affordable commodity or so I thought and secondly that the funds are legit.

Perhaps I am wrong there. Either way, don’t you think £10k is a very large amount to accept before checks are done?
'Affordable' is wholly up to an individual and is their own personal choice. Its also not unusual for couples to have different bank accounts so what is showing in one bank account doesn't show how much somebody has available to spend. If a person is depositing roughly the same amounts,I tend to stick to between £10-£30 then why do they need to provide any more proof than they already have?
 

snorky510238

Chief glockenspiel maker
Joined
Jan 12, 2018
Location
Uk
'Affordable' is wholly up to an individual and is their own personal choice.
Not sure that’s true? If you submitted a bank statement that showed you were regularly making deposits from an overdraft facility, even if yourself and the bank were okay with it, a Casino following RG and DD would close your account.
 

Mr_Slot5

Senior Member
Joined
May 6, 2019
Location
North West
Not sure that’s true? If you submitted a bank statement that showed you were regularly making deposits from an overdraft facility, even if yourself and the bank were okay with it, a Casino following RG and DD would close your account.
I agree with Johnny. We are far too nanny state these days. It SHOULD be up to an individual to manage their finances accordingly, not have them micromanaged by others. If a bank has agreed a credit facility with an individual then the relationship is between that individual and the bank. You have to pay it back the same whether you spend it on a pack of cigs and 2 bottles of vodka or a session on Gems Bonanza!

Gambling is meant to be treated as a form of entertainment...so what's the difference between someone going the cinema and paying out of an overdraft and someone making a casino deposit out of an overdraft? If they are both for entertainment purposes there is no difference!
 
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snorky510238

Chief glockenspiel maker
Joined
Jan 12, 2018
Location
Uk
The difference being tobacconists and off-licences do not have an obligation to fulfil, in asking whether it’s affordable, whereas Casinos do. I am not for it by any means but if that’s the law, then.......
 

Mr_Slot5

Senior Member
Joined
May 6, 2019
Location
North West
The difference being tobacconists and off-licences do not have an obligation to fulfil, in asking whether it’s affordable, whereas Casinos do. I am not for it by any means but if that’s the law, then.......
Well yeah this is why we're discussing the absurdity of the whole thing (even if the RG issue is digressing somewhat from the original discourse)!
 

colinsunderland

RIP Colin
Joined
Jan 28, 2016
Location
uk
You have to show payslips to prove your earnings or where the £1,000 has come from. SOW is different to AML (isn’t it?) but I see how the 2 are very connected. SOW is primarily to see if gambling is an affordable commodity or so I thought and secondly that the funds are legit.

Perhaps I am wrong there. Either way, don’t you think £10k is a very large amount to accept before checks are done?
They get confused, but as you mentioned AML in your first post about it, I presumed thats what you were meaning. Usually the checks that casinos use to withhold winnings are AML. If your brother sends you £50, then that shouldn't be an affordable gambling issue, it could be a ML issue though, particularly if there were loads of deposits.
RG should really look at your balance, income, outgoings, then make a decision on what you can afford
AML should look at where the funds originate.
They are separate checks, or should be anyway.

Regarding the £10k, thats why there shouldn't be hard limits. If a casino has done an RG affordability check and saw you won £10 million on the Euromillions a month ago, then £10k is nothing, and should not trigger an AML check.
On the other hand, if you are on benefits and hit £10k, then it might.

However, I've had some accounts for almost 20 years, I was one of the first Bet365 customers. I don't use them very much as I got limited pretty quickly lol, but am probably close to around £10k in deposits and withdrawals. Do you think £10k turnover is a large amount over 20 years? It's about £9.60 a week, and bear in mind, all the limits casinos stick on accounts are turnover, not deposits. So if you deposit a tenner and (somehow) win £10k, then it will trigger the check, do you think it should?

Thats why it should be risk based, not hard limits. Someone who deposits £10000 the day they open an account, plays it through once on roulette then withdraws 95% of it 2 hours later is clearly more of a risk than me at Bet365, yet we would be treated the same if all casinos used that hard limit.
 

snorky510238

Chief glockenspiel maker
Joined
Jan 12, 2018
Location
Uk
I sent Casumo, every bit of SOW they asked for. My withdrawals over 4 years were about £500 above my deposits at around 11 odd thousand. None of my money was or is laundered and my bank statements for the 3 months I sent showed more money withdrawn than deposited.

In all honesty, they would have probably got that bit of profit back quite quickly and more but they closed my account. The only reasons (and they didn’t and wouldn’t say why) could have been that, I wasn’t the type of customer they wanted OR because the amount of cash flowing through the account (even though I was winning) was deemed irresponsible.
 

Mr_Slot5

Senior Member
Joined
May 6, 2019
Location
North West
I sent Casumo, every bit of SOW they asked for. My withdrawals over 4 years were about £500 above my deposits at around 11 odd thousand. None of my money was or is laundered and my bank statements for the 3 months I sent showed more money withdrawn than deposited.

In all honesty, they would have probably got that bit of profit back quite quickly and more but they closed my account. The only reasons (and they didn’t and wouldn’t say why) could have been that, I wasn’t the type of customer they wanted OR because the amount of cash flowing through the account (even though I was winning) was deemed irresponsible.
They are notorious on here and pretty sure they have been taken off the accredited list for giving people the run around with withdrawals etc.

Don't think we can really look to that lot for business advice and tips :p
 

snorky510238

Chief glockenspiel maker
Joined
Jan 12, 2018
Location
Uk
They are notorious on here and pretty sure they have been taken off the accredited list for giving people the run around with withdrawals etc.

Don't think we can really look to that lot for business advice and tips :p
I am sure they have but even though I was winning, it still appeared irresponsible as I had as many as 500 deposits a month at 15 plus Casinos. My withdrawals covered it plus a bit but most of that money was just being recycled. Looks dodgy as hell on the face of it but it was nothing more than the explanation I have given.
 

Mr_Slot5

Senior Member
Joined
May 6, 2019
Location
North West
I am sure they have but even though I was winning, it still appeared irresponsible as I had as many as 500 deposits a month at 15 plus Casinos. My withdrawals covered it plus a bit but most of that money was just being recycled. Looks dodgy as hell on the face of it but it was nothing more than the explanation I have given.
Yeah I get you. This is it, most gamblers will recycle funds...very few just take the withdrawal and never deposit again lol.
 

shapesy

Full Member
Joined
Dec 1, 2012
Location
liverpool
Being in the UK and only using the big UK sites i had never been asked until a few weeks ago. on logging in to Betvictor i was greeted with a message asking for job and salary, Was easy to complete but has put me off depositing there again incase of more intusive questions. I have had the account for over a decade and deposit no more than 100 monthly
 

Rubyslippers

Registered
Joined
Jan 13, 2019
Location
ENGLAND
virtually stopped playing altogether after playing online for 20 years , i find new rules very intrusive , and i would never play on a MGA regulated site because they "dont regulate " and do not ringfence players funds , tens of millions of euros/£ have been stolen by shady operators over the last 10 years under MGA licence and MGA have done absolutely nothing to help (most of time they know a licensee is in dire straits but allow players to keep depositing ) but when there is a problem MGA just sweep it under the carpet , there is no one to turn to for help , i know several players who have lost 50k euro + and hundreds who have lost between 1k-5k ( this was just in the everleaf/MGA scandal a few years back)
 
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