Slots Fairness Discussion (Cut from Other Thread)

[trancemonkey]

OK, then the answer to my second question [On the same topic.How would you explain that such a popular slot like DoA has 96.2% all time RTP at videoslots vs. 96.8% TRTP? There must have been billions of spins since its release at Videoslots so the actual RTP should have been very near to the TRTP (I would have expected within 0.1%).] is that in other casinos the RTP is higher?

My guess is that this might be skewed slightly by some people playing at very high stakes. For example if you play 100 games at 9p, but I play one at £9, then there are a lot of games through the game but the RTP would be way off.

Also games tend to trend below their target RTP and grow towards it over time as obviously the TRTP includes all the super rare wins and these need to happen to get to the TRTP.

I bet DOA hasn't had over 1bn spins at VS... But if Dan can tell us I'd be interested.

 

[Deleted member 37551]

My guess is that this might be skewed slightly by some people playing at very high stakes. For example if you play 100 games at 9p, but I play one at £9, then there are a lot of games through the game but the RTP would be way off.

Also games tend to trend below their target RTP and grow towards it over time as obviously the TRTP includes all the super rare wins and these need to happen to get to the TRTP.

I bet DOA hasn't had over 1bn spins at VS... But if Dan can tell us I'd be interested.

that is correct that can only be one of the explanations possible,higher stakes

 

[stokes]

I bet DOA hasn't had over 1bn spins at VS... But if Dan can tell us I'd be interested.

I think it must be well over 1 bn.
I have completed their achievements 10 times since last May (when I started to count). That is 10X 10 000 winning spin which is like 310 000 ordinary spin. In less than a year, so I would expect within 3-4 years (since DoA was available) there could have eeen more than 1 bn spin.

 

[EkJR]

What near miss situation? Are you talking about getting two scatters?

Similar yes. Two scatters, two bonus symbols etc. The frequency of this seems extremely high on certain slots. Rainbow Riches Pick and Mix is the prime example of this

 

[Bloatgoat]

What about the “near miss” situation? I would like to know how this fits into a random number generator

This fits into a script to keep you going, lol. There is no such thing as near miss on a slot. You might believe it it was a near miss but it's technically a miss.

Or something simular as betting 2 a spin, and getting 60 cents in return because you happend to have a small line. You still made 1,40 on that spin loss.

But it's clear to me. Even tho the RNG is advertised as random, the outcome will never be random. It's always within borders of RTP/TRTP and thus you cant beat a slot then. A slot is not designed to make loss for the casino, but profit. The only luck you have is sit at a slot that is about to ejaculate all over the screen.

 

[Bloatgoat]

No matter how many times it's explained to you you still don't get it... we can only explain the same thing so many times...

We don't control the RNG... it is still picking a random result. When we do different RTP of a game we change many parameters ... maybe the paytable slightly. Maybe the length of a reel bands and the distribution or frequency of the symbols. But the outcome is still randomly chosen. If each reel had 64 position it would still chose numbers between 1 and 64.

The symbols at those positions may be different on different versions of the game but the pick was still random.

If you don't understand it now that's tough as it's the last time I'm explaining it

I used to work for a pretty big slot machine development company as a game developer. To make it easier to understand, the slot games are purely based on RNG - random number generator. It is real random that if we generate 100000 numbers between 0 to 99, you will find them equally fit all positions.

That is the thoerical foundation on which we design the pay-table, that all possible combinations will be equally hit when enough games are played. For example, a 3-reel game with 10 symbols on each real, the cycle (number of all combinations) is 1000, if we spin it 100000 times, every combination is hit 100 times. Sure we can calculate all payout and all money in, that is why we can set the target pay back percentage by putting symbols on reels.

This was from some former IGT member, and IGT is a pretty big name out there. They are a major brand on landbased as well. Bottom line is: slots can be controlled, as the outcome will be calculated based on amount of spins + money flowing in. There are so many vairables that alot of people have a hard time understanding it. And i think they on purpose made it that complicated.

So it's true; slots could technically never make a loss on the floor. It's all calculated within the maths and numbers and other variables such as money in / money out. So it makes no sense to chase something that is'nt even there. Or try to abuse it to get more out of it.

You have RTP, TRTP and even deviation which kicks in. Really i have a hard time to believe that online slots genuine have a RTP of 95% or higher. Why is it that i in general, lose the money i play online compared to landbased? Why is it that i leave with 7 out of 10 times profit from landbased and have a hard time even getting even online?

So perhaps landbased offers slots that have a high output when it hits, and online is more smaller and longer hits, with a 1% chance to win a one time big. From my experience i think alot of online casino's and their slots are just shit. They are a money making element for any casino with no real entertainment value whatsoever.

I played a few days now, from what i saw, the moment i played, i always at some point would get back to my original deposit, and get back to zero. I left it for a day, came back, did the same, same result. This over a course of 2 weeks. The same fucking thing over and over again. Switching slot did not make any much difference. Switching from low to high bets, nada.

So either that casino is having a very bad 2 weeks, or i as a player am somehow fucking flagged because nothing seems to work out of the ordinary. Sure, the numbers are correct. I depositted, played, wagered, and got back to "96%" RTP, right? Yes. But i still lost. Nobody is going to withdrawl the same money they deposited, are they? So how good is that (T)RTP at all?

Another one for you:



She states at some point, that mathematical algorithms are designed in such a way to keep players playing. Or better said: to create a new breed of compulsive gamblers. It very well suites to what i experienced the last 2 weeks. I keep on returning and that is exactly even tho i know i lost, what that goal was.

Oh, perhaps another day. Or perhaps tomorrow, etc etc. This is your online mathematical (unethical) behind slots, where the goal is to keep players playing, and barely give them a chance to win 'big' because that is what we all are chasing. That one golden fucking ticket lol.

They figured this out back in the 70's on rats, on how to keep rats doing what they are supposed todo and give them a reward everytime they completed a task. Simular is with human beings behind slots. You get rewarded at some point for clicking start. You feel good when you win. And you completely forget that you lost money the other days.

That is your mathematical algorithm that's perfectly crafted with all the big data gathered from both landbased and online casino's. Think about that for a second. This is a billion industry, world wide. This aint no RNG from 0 to 9999 with 'true' randomness inside of it. It's designed to keep you playing, and by math, make you lose on the long run.

And we keep coming back in threads like this, keep replying about how fucking rigged slots are. Well looking at the mathematical algorithm, i am pretty sure that slots by design are rigged, just in a legal entity where it's allowed todo so. Remember, there's a huge lobby going on behind the world of casino and getting certain legislations.

UK and online slots are no different. Bookies are no different either. German slots in spielhalle also. I really hope someone in here pulls their head out of Trancemonkey's ass and opens up their eyes. He is no slot god. He's just a former employee on a very small scale, just answering what is within his comfort. It makes him look good on his resume for his next employee.

He knows damn right his mathematical algorithm is in favour of the casino. And he knows damn right online slots are flawed in certain matters. A bad programmed slot is a bad excuse. These things get tested before being launched online, but apparently not long enough as players online actually do.

I find your job unethical anyway. It's not like people genuine enjoy the few games you spitted out. And they are defenitly not on the 'favorites' list on many online casino's because it was a hard time finding all 4 of those games anyway.

I'm going to close my account for online slots. I've had it. They can stick it up their ass. I am going to my punching bag and beat the shit out of it. Get it out of my system. Because online gambling is no good. The next email i get from my VIP manager from online slots will get it straight into her pretty face.

 

[trancemonkey]

This was from some former IGT member, and IGT is a pretty big name out there. They are a major brand on landbased as well. Bottom line is: slots can be controlled, as the outcome will be calculated based on amount of spins + money flowing in. There are so many vairables that alot of people have a hard time understanding it. And i think they on purpose made it that complicated.

So it's true; slots could technically never make a loss on the floor. It's all calculated within the maths and numbers and other variables such as money in / money out. So it makes no sense to chase something that is'nt even there. Or try to abuse it to get more out of it.

You have RTP, TRTP and even deviation which kicks in. Really i have a hard time to believe that online slots genuine have a RTP of 95% or higher. Why is it that i in general, lose the money i play online compared to landbased? Why is it that i leave with 7 out of 10 times profit from landbased and have a hard time even getting even online?

So perhaps landbased offers slots that have a high output when it hits, and online is more smaller and longer hits, with a 1% chance to win a one time big. From my experience i think alot of online casino's and their slots are just shit. They are a money making element for any casino with no real entertainment value whatsoever.

I played a few days now, from what i saw, the moment i played, i always at some point would get back to my original deposit, and get back to zero. I left it for a day, came back, did the same, same result. This over a course of 2 weeks. The same fucking thing over and over again. Switching slot did not make any much difference. Switching from low to high bets, nada.

So either that casino is having a very bad 2 weeks, or i as a player am somehow fucking flagged because nothing seems to work out of the ordinary. Sure, the numbers are correct. I depositted, played, wagered, and got back to "96%" RTP, right? Yes. But i still lost. Nobody is going to withdrawl the same money they deposited, are they? So how good is that (T)RTP at all?

Another one for you:



She states at some point, that mathematical algorithms are designed in such a way to keep players playing. Or better said: to create a new breed of compulsive gamblers. It very well suites to what i experienced the last 2 weeks. I keep on returning and that is exactly even tho i know i lost, what that goal was.

Oh, perhaps another day. Or perhaps tomorrow, etc etc. This is your online mathematical (unethical) behind slots, where the goal is to keep players playing, and barely give them a chance to win 'big' because that is what we all are chasing. That one golden fucking ticket lol.

They figured this out back in the 70's on rats, on how to keep rats doing what they are supposed todo and give them a reward everytime they completed a task. Simular is with human beings behind slots. You get rewarded at some point for clicking start. You feel good when you win. And you completely forget that you lost money the other days.

That is your mathematical algorithm that's perfectly crafted with all the big data gathered from both landbased and online casino's. Think about that for a second. This is a billion industry, world wide. This aint no RNG from 0 to 9999 with 'true' randomness inside of it. It's designed to keep you playing, and by math, make you lose on the long run.

And we keep coming back in threads like this, keep replying about how fucking rigged slots are. Well looking at the mathematical algorithm, i am pretty sure that slots by design are rigged, just in a legal entity where it's allowed todo so. Remember, there's a huge lobby going on behind the world of casino and getting certain legislations.

UK and online slots are no different. Bookies are no different either. German slots in spielhalle also. I really hope someone in here pulls their head out of Trancemonkey's ass and opens up their eyes. He is no slot god. He's just a former employee on a very small scale, just answering what is within his comfort. It makes him look good on his resume for his next employee.

He knows damn right his mathematical algorithm is in favour of the casino. And he knows damn right online slots are flawed in certain matters. A bad programmed slot is a bad excuse. These things get tested before being launched online, but apparently not long enough as players online actually do.

I find your job unethical anyway. It's not like people genuine enjoy the few games you spitted out. And they are defenitly not on the 'favorites' list on many online casino's because it was a hard time finding all 4 of those games anyway.

I'm going to close my account for online slots. I've had it. They can stick it up their ass. I am going to my punching bag and beat the shit out of it. Get it out of my system. Because online gambling is no good. The next email i get from my VIP manager from online slots will get it straight into her pretty face.

You’re right Bloatgoat... I’m nothing. I know nothing. You know everything.

When threads become abusive I step away. You have now made it personal so this thread is over between me and you. You clearly know me and my job and experience better than I know myself.

As for the personal attacks on me and my job.. nearly all of my games are land-based and not online hence the fact I have not many bespoke games for online - which is what you asked for. And to be honest I couldn’t care less what you think of the Games. They aren’t the best games in the world nor the worst.

The funny thing is that what you quote the IGT developer as saying is exactly what I’ve been saying. You seem to believe this guy because he worked for IGT... oh the irony.

Enjoy your conspiracies.

 

[Bloatgoat]

Hey it was you who started to make fun of me. Dont be all crocodile tears now, i just think your job is unethical, that's all. You keep stating maths and rng and this and that, now that i done a little homework on those maths you said in this thread, i figured out that those maths have a far more reason to it then just 'maths'. It makes perfect sense for me now why online slots are so shit. They will never let you leave the house with 10 / 20 / 30k's my friend. It's like hotel california, you can check in but you can never leave.

Oh and the conspirancies are not just what you think. I know the risks of gambling. I've bin doing that for 4 years at a screaming high limit level. I know i could lose, landbased, online, and even with bitcoin trading. But that's the game. And the game shoud'nt be so difficult as i am experiecing personally ONLINE.

You are to my opinion, just a small player compared to the big brands, names and all that. Perhaps it makes sense why we dont see the big brand coming on these threads and make a true and genuine statement on how shit actually works. I am sorry if i hurted any of your feelings. Dont take it personally.

You see i've had the above experience with at least 3 'great' brands online. No need for naming on those brands anyway. But they all share the same (un)logic with slots. It's that mathematical thing that makes me WANT to keep gambling. This is a very very bad habbit. And this is the math you are talking about. This is the online slot business. And they designed around various rules, had their tricks or even as in the video is being spoken to, throw a wave of luck onto the machine just for you, to keep you going.

I might as well flush the money through the toilet the next time i start playing online again. Note by note flushing it straight through. Perhaps i could get a better game experience then online, lol.

 

[trancemonkey]

Hey it was you who started to make fun of me. Dont be all crocodile tears now, i just think your job is unethical, that's all. You keep stating maths and rng and this and that, now that i done a little homework on those maths you said in this thread, i figured out that those maths have a far more reason to it then just 'maths'. It makes perfect sense for me now why online slots are so shit. They will never let you leave the house with 10 / 20 / 30k's my friend. It's like hotel california, you can check in but you can never leave.

Oh and the conspirancies are not just what you think. I know the risks of gambling. I've bin doing that for 4 years at a screaming high limit level. I know i could lose, landbased, online, and even with bitcoin trading. But that's the game. And the game shoud'nt be so difficult as i am experiecing personally ONLINE.

You are to my opinion, just a small player compared to the big brands, names and all that. Perhaps it makes sense why we dont see the big brand coming on these threads and make a true and genuine statement on how shit actually works. I am sorry if i hurted any of your feelings. Dont take it personally.

You see i've had the above experience with at least 3 'great' brands online. No need for naming on those brands anyway. But they all share the same (un)logic with slots. It's that mathematical thing that makes me WANT to keep gambling. This is a very very bad habbit. And this is the math you are talking about. This is the online slot business. And they designed around various rules, had their tricks or even as in the video is being spoken to, throw a wave of luck onto the machine just for you, to keep you going.

I might as well flush the money through the toilet the next time i start playing online again. Note by note flushing it straight through. Perhaps i could get a better game experience then online, lol.

So you're saying that if I worked for IGT then I would be telling the truth... But if I don't work for them my job is unethical and I am probably not telling the truth? And that you would like someone from IGT to come on here and tell you the truth?

 

[Bloatgoat]

I will answer that question, the moment you look at my post, and start answering on some certain keypoints. And esp on that math algorithm like it's some sort of magic while the harsh reality is that players are as good as taken hostage into playing. That same math creating a new breed of compulsive gamblers. How bout that?

 

[trancemonkey]

I will answer that question, the moment you look at my post, and start answering on some certain keypoints. And esp on that math algorithm like it's some sort of magic while the harsh reality is that players are as good as taken hostage into playing. That same math creating a new breed of compulsive gamblers. How bout that?

Well I'm not sure what the question is... are you asking if we create maths that people will enjoy and hopefully keep coming back to? Then the answer is yes. Do we want compulsive gamblers who ruin their lives by gambling too much? Not at all...

We design our games and maths to be enjoyed by players. We use all the tools at our disposal to make that hopefully a fun and enjoyable experience. We do this with sounds, visuals and maths. Maths of course being the most important part of the game because this is what you "feel"...

Now could you answer my question please?

 

[Bloatgoat]

I dont believe you. You wrote before you'd licence or 'use' another math that was available for you and your team to create games on. That is a complete different story to what you are stating now. The game yes, might be fun, and keep players coming back and have a good time and all that shit, but it's still running on a math we really dont know what is happening or going on.

And since lead business all over the globe implement a much more further going mathematical thing, it wont take long untill you or your devs figure out the holding time would be 'much greater' with a more sophisticated math base then the one you where using now. Lets take another example coming from your own country; bookie's, and their crazy low returns. How many compulsive gamblers does your country have ? Is that because the games are so fun? Is it that people are greedy? Or is it well designed math which makes it almost impossible to 'win' on those type of machines?

Dont bullshit me man. That math is'nt there for fun. That math is housing in every slot game for a reason. And to guarantee the machine would not make loss in the first place. The RNG is just a fairytale people and casino's keep saying over and over again.

 

[dionysus]

I honestly don't know how this hasn't been forked
what more is there to say?

 

[trancemonkey]

I dont believe you. You wrote before you'd licence or 'use' another math that was available for you and your team to create games on. That is a complete different story to what you are stating now. The game yes, might be fun, and keep players coming back and have a good time and all that shit, but it's still running on a math we really dont know what is happening or going on.

And since lead business all over the globe implement a much more further going mathematical thing, it wont take long untill you or your devs figure out the holding time would be 'much greater' with a more sophisticated math base then the one you where using now. Lets take another example coming from your own country; bookie's, and their crazy low returns. How many compulsive gamblers does your country have ? Is that because the games are so fun? Is it that people are greedy? Or is it well designed math which makes it almost impossible to 'win' on those type of machines?

Dont bullshit me man. That math is'nt there for fun. That math is housing in every slot game for a reason. And to guarantee the machine would not make loss in the first place. The RNG is just a fairytale people and casino's keep saying over and over again.

I have no idea what you’re on about... I wrote what? That I would licence Maths or use another Maths?

The only time we reuse Maths is if the game is a decendant of a previous game.

As for the Uk market.. it’s a relatively low RTP market yes. Not as low as some US markets admittedly. I’m not a fan of the UK market - low hit frequency high volatility games don’t really appeal to me.

So now to my question... if someone from IGT or WMS or someone would come in to this thread and tell you how they did their Games would you believe them more over me? And if so, why?

 

[paul7388]

I honestly don't know how this hasn't been forked
what more is there to say?

If it got forked no doubt there would be another hundred threads the same soon enough lol.

Do you not know all slots are rigged

 

[aceking123]

Bloatgoat you make some interesting points, but dont make this a personal attack , trance is trying to give you answers but sadly he cannot give you what you're looking for , ive had my fair share of hits against trance but still think he is doing his best to answer without getting into trouble, but sadly this is just going around in circles , either way no machine is set up to lose whether that be online or on the casino floor.

 

[dionysus]

If it got forked no doubt there would be another hundred threads the same soon enough lol.

Do you not know all slots are rigged

lol truth.
rigged
rigged I tells ya

 

[Bloatgoat]

I have no idea what you’re on about... I wrote what? That I would licence Maths or use another Maths?

The only time we reuse Maths is if the game is a decendant of a previous game.

Truly random no.. but PRNGs are random enough that the distribution is fair and as close to truly random as you can get. We use the Mersenne-Twister PRNG. Look it up

That's a math to my bookies.

As for the Uk market.. it’s a relatively low RTP market yes. Not as low as some US markets admittedly. I’m not a fan of the UK market - low hit frequency high volatility games don’t really appeal to me.

Uh yeah... so you think the low hit frequency high volatility is what makes a bunch of compulsive gamblers in the UK? Or germany in that matter... ? It's due to those very maths, and they way they are designed.

So now to my question... if someone from IGT or WMS or someone would come in to this thread and tell you how they did their Games would you believe them more over me? And if so, why?

I'd like to hear various sources, and not just one. This so i can form my own opinion about it. The thing in here with you is that you only seem to answer questions or posts that you can / will / want to answer, but you skimp out on certain (keypoint) questions that some people would like to know. I understand that you cant disclose too much of your job of slots, but rather let us know about not disclosing too much so we know where we stand with you. My quote was from a former IGT employee (what he said ..) and stated in a very clear sentence how that stuff & maths work. And how payout is calculated for example. Ofcourse, very logical and all. A slot cant make loss on casino floor. But what frustrates me the most is that i am having a far more bad luck online then compared to landbased.

So i go out and seek other others opinions on that subject, and i end up here. Time passes by and i conclude, that math's are designed in such a way (please read a few posts above) to keep you gambling, to make you a compulsive gambler. The bookies and gambling addicts in the UK are a perfect example of what i am saying here.

Did they became addicts due to the nature of the gameplay? Did they became addicts because they where greedy? Or did they, tadaaaaaa, became addicts because the maths are designed in such a way that lures people into becoming compulsive players?

You tell me man. You are the lead slot designer. You are the one access to all that stuff and implementing this model into games. Ofcourse your aim is to create a fun and loving game, but the moment casino's start rejecting your games due to too low profit; you will make the switch to a more sticking and aggressive math.

Dont bullshit me man. I know how it works. I have my own company for 8 years with over 70 clients.

Bloatgoat you make some interesting points, but dont make this a personal attack , trance is trying to give you answers but sadly he cannot give you what you're looking for , ive had my fair share of hits against trance but still think he is doing his best to answer without getting into trouble, but sadly this is just going around in circles , either way no machine is set up to lose whether that be online or on the casino floor.

I know, because i did my homework here. Think about the following man. I've tossed in alot of money online, and got alot less in return. How was that possible?

Well it all makes sense to me now. We have a math that is designed to keep me returning and dump in some more money, without a real ticket out of that place.

This happend over the course of various online slots. And when you won something, it all went down the drain. Not just because i coud'nt keep hold of myself, but because it's appearently designed that way. Did'nt matter if i'd spin 0.60 cents or 25. Result was the very same.

 

[trancemonkey]

That's a math to my bookies.



Uh yeah... so you think the low hit frequency high volatility is what makes a bunch of compulsive gamblers in the UK? Or germany in that matter... ? It's due to those very maths, and they way they are designed.



I'd like to hear various sources, and not just one. This so i can form my own opinion about it. The thing in here with you is that you only seem to answer questions or posts that you can / will / want to answer, but you skimp out on certain (keypoint) questions that some people would like to know. I understand that you cant disclose too much of your job of slots, but rather let us know about not disclosing too much so we know where we stand with you. My quote was from a former IGT employee (what he said ..) and stated in a very clear sentence how that stuff & maths work. And how payout is calculated for example. Ofcourse, very logical and all. A slot cant make loss on casino floor. But what frustrates me the most is that i am having a far more bad luck online then compared to landbased.

So i go out and seek other others opinions on that subject, and i end up here. Time passes by and i conclude, that math's are designed in such a way (please read a few posts above) to keep you gambling, to make you a compulsive gambler. The bookies and gambling addicts in the UK are a perfect example of what i am saying here.

Did they became addicts due to the nature of the gameplay? Did they became addicts because they where greedy? Or did they, tadaaaaaa, became addicts because the maths are designed in such a way that lures people into becoming compulsive players?

You tell me man. You are the lead slot designer. You are the one access to all that stuff and implementing this model into games. Ofcourse your aim is to create a fun and loving game, but the moment casino's start rejecting your games due to too low profit; you will make the switch to a more sticking and aggressive math.

Dont bullshit me man. I know how it works. I have my own company for 8 years with over 70 clients.

Unless you have you own slots company making games then your last statement is wholly irrelevant....

But anyway... the nature of gameplay is the maths and the maths is the gameplay. Slots can lose money for a casino in the short term due to volatility but if they have a long enough floor life then yes of course they will make the casino money. But only the popular ones stay around for a long time...

We do not, and I will repeat this endlessly, design games to make people compulsive gamblers.

Would you accuse Grey Goose of designing their Vodka to encourage alcoholism? Or Ferrari of encouraging people to drive like idiots?

No of course not...

We build games for people to enjoy... we can not stop people being compulsive gamblers if they are that way inclined. It is their choice to gamble. We don't drag people in to casinos.

The vast majority of people gamble sensibly and within limits - this is our core market and our target market. We simply do not want people ruining there or anyone else's lives by gambling.

So the accusation that we design maths to encourage compulsive gambling behaviour I reject completely. You are entitled to the opposite opinion.

Also to help Bloatgoat out, if anyone knows anyone from IGT could you let them know so they can comment in this thread... thanks

 

[trancemonkey]

I know, because i did my homework here. Think about the following man. I've tossed in alot of money online, and got alot less in return. How was that possible?

Well it all makes sense to me now. We have a math that is designed to keep me returning and dump in some more money, without a real ticket out of that place.

This happend over the course of various online slots. And when you won something, it all went down the drain. Not just because i coud'nt keep hold of myself, but because it's appearently designed that way. Did'nt matter if i'd spin 0.60 cents or 25. Result was the very same.

You got less because the overall RTP is less than 100%... I'd have thought that's pretty obvious

 

[Bloatgoat]

I only played a few games, up to 5 i believe. This is where i base my own personal experience on. Some games are highly volatile, others are more entertaining / fun. It just depends on what people like. It's why casino's have a wide variety of games up their portfolio to play with.

The vast majority of people gamble sensibly and within limits - this is our core market and our target market. We simply do not want people ruining there or anyone else's lives by gambling.

Ofcourse not, but you know this is happening on daily basis. And every bookie, casino landbased or offline wants to make more and more profit. A business nature is to extend it's operation and knowing slots generate priority income for any casino this is the first tactic. They either expand into more slots or apply some new math presented by lobbyist who claim more profit for the casino. Any game designer, math designer and all, want to licence out their product. That is their main income and the more casino's licencing the better. Look at the bigger brands, they go very well beyond to whats even responsible and are as you might say, lead in this game.

Even tho a bookie has a permit and needs to stick to recognizing responsible play, they know damn well their machines and maths are designed to lure players more and more in. They can set a RTP upon licensing a machine. That's as low as 60% RTP lol.

You got less because the overall RTP is less than 100%... I'd have thought that's pretty obvious

Look man, from my experience, going into landbased, with 3 grand, at least gives me a shot at some decent winnings. If it does'nt happen on one slot, there are 6 others to choose from and at least one will trigger. I cant say this for online. It's like i am being leveled out some way to always stay within some border. It's really non-obvious ofcourse that my play spread out on various online slots did the very same. It's odd right? And this is just not for 2 weeks. I play for longer then a year on various "big" brands.

So now i'm pretty much convinced that's it's just not bad luck, not just RTP or TRTP but maths that are designed to keep me returning and spend money. I'd really like to know if i'm incorrect. You proberly going to say i am or others as well but i cant think of anything else. It does'nt suprise me looking at the server sided gaming techniques. It makes perfect sense.

I've never had such a experience to be honest. Landbased 'serves' me much better in that occasion. Yes i could lose as well. It all comes down to discipline, money management and leaving when you should. This does not seem to apply online. Apart from the withdrawl bullshit 48 hours and all.

 

[dionysus]

you might be playing at the wrong casinos as there's a fair few you see your money in moments or minutes
if you 'feel' slots are somehow levelling each other out (rhey dobt) then choose a multi platform casino; bounce around between developers.
unfortunately it seems a lot of your issues are based on experience...and the nature of slots being random is you WILL have different experiences than others. thats well the nature if randomness
but opinion and fact aren't bed mates. I'm still going to balance my experience with knowledge

 

[Bloatgoat]

What nature? Maths? Lol.

 

[dionysus]

this might surprise you but the entirety of the universe...nature.. as chaotic (random) as it is still runs on fundamental maths

 

[trancemonkey]

Even tho a bookie has a permit and needs to stick to recognizing responsible play, they know damn well their machines and maths are designed to lure players more and more in. They can set a RTP upon licensing a machine. That's as low as 60% RTP lol.

No they can't... where do you get this incorrect information.

 

[Bloatgoat]

Yeah whatever.

No they can't... where do you get this incorrect information.

So your saying they cant select the desired RTP upon licensing a machine?

 

[dionysus]

it has been said and said and reiterated ...dodgy softwares and sketchy casinos aside casinos CANNOT influence player play outcome and willynilly adjust rtp

 

[dionysus]

desired upon an offered selection of rtp from select providers yes upon a FEW offered models.
wake and adjust? no

 

[Bloatgoat]

it has been said and said and reiterated ...dodgy softwares and sketchy casinos aside casinos CANNOT influence player play outcome and willynilly adjust rtp

Maybe it's better when you stop talking if you dont have anything usefull to say.

Any casino LICENCES machines. It's the law. And by licencing THEY CAN SELECT the desired RTP. It's not up to them to change, it takes the official company who comes over and changes those settings.

This is Germany, Holland, Belgium, why would UK be any different?

Geezus.

 

[dionysus]

sigh

useful..well that's rather relative isn't it?
to date you've provided opinion based and half cocked theories

 

[trancemonkey]

Yeah whatever.


So your saying they cant select the desired RTP upon licensing a machine?

They can select the desired RTP from the selection we give them. This is normally from around 86% up to 96%.

There is not a single legal jurisdiction in the world that goes to 60%. And no major manufacturer makes anywhere near those RTPs you state. Every RTP we make costs a lot of money to make / QA / homologate etc. It costs around $10k+ per RTP in terms of effort. Hence we offer a limited choice of RTPs

 

[trancemonkey]

Bloatgoat... here's some light reading for you...

Old / Expired Link

These are the regulations we have to adhere to in most jurisdictions around the world. Most are based on or use GLI 11 and GLI 21. There are some jurisdictions that have more rules (Macau, Singapore, UK (land-based) to name a few) than are mentioned here but this is industry standard and a great benchmark.

 

[suchfun]

They can select the desired RTP from the selection we give them. This is normally from around 86% up to 96%.

There is not a single legal jurisdiction in the world that goes to 60%. And no major manufacturer makes anywhere near those RTPs you state. Every RTP we make costs a lot of money to make / QA / homologate etc. It costs around $10k+ per RTP in terms of effort. Hence we offer a limited choice of RTPs

so you can change the outcome of the spins to win or lose more and you still say its random??? That's like using weighted dice so snake eyes hit more and still calling the roll random.

 

[Bloatgoat]

Bloatgoat... here's some light reading for you...

Old / Expired Link

These are the regulations we have to adhere to in most jurisdictions around the world. Most are based on or use GLI 11 and GLI 21. There are some jurisdictions that have more rules (Macau, Singapore, UK (land-based) to name a few) than are mentioned here but this is industry standard and a great benchmark.

Trust me, one of the joints in germany i saw stated all his machines where 60% RTP. That's ridiculous anyway. They make an avg of 100 euro a day per machine times 8. 800 times 30 is 24k a month. He also stated that any servicing or maintaince was only allowed by the company who licenced out those machines. If he would tamper around with it he'd lose his licence.

I know a former employee who sold such a joint, the new owner simply resetted that RTP on all machines back to 70%. It's all about making money here Trancemonkey.

so you can change the outcome of the spins to win or lose more and you still say its random??? That's like using weighted dice so snake eyes hit more and still calling the roll random.

You have a RNG which picks random numbers,

You have mathematical going on which ensures the paypack percentage is as close as desired. Variables such as money being fed in and amount of spins on a typical bet / game etc come into play.

That's all there is to in a slot. Just dont believe when people say it's genuine random!!!!!1111 because it's always within parameters. It's like close to being random, but not fully.

I've bin following a high limit slots guy on the net:

You do not have permission to view link Log in or register now.

So basicly this guy apparently has money like water, proberly a forest behind his house growing dollar bills. He spends alot of time living the casino life, where high limit is his standard. I am talking about slots pushing 600 dollar a spin. You'd expect that on some point he wins a very high price or something, but it's always 1400 to 3500 on avg, and sometimes a spike in the 10 grand territory.

Now that i know how slots general work; the reason for him not hitting extreme huge jackpot on such bets is very simple. There is no volume on those slots he plays, he's proberly the only one going extreme on max bet. This basicly offers no real headroom when winning jackpots to be honest.

Seen it in my own casino as well. A machine tends to trigger 'better' on 20 a spin rather then 40 / 60 a spin. The magic is kinda gone from this point if you ask me. The math's just ensure the slot will never payout more then it's setup for.

So people chasing huge sums, unless the machine or slot is heavily played on, forget it.

 

[Steviedoo]

Trust me, one of the joints in germany i saw stated all his machines where 60% RTP. That's ridiculous anyway. They make an avg of 100 euro a day per machine times 8. 800 times 30 is 24k a month. He also stated that any servicing or maintaince was only allowed by the company who licenced out those machines. If he would tamper around with it he'd lose his licence.

I know a former employee who sold such a joint, the new owner simply resetted that RTP on all machines back to 70%. It's all about making money here Trancemonkey.



You have a RNG which picks random numbers,

You have mathematical going on which ensures the paypack percentage is as close as desired. Variables such as money being fed in and amount of spins on a typical bet / game etc come into play.

That's all there is to in a slot. Just dont believe when people say it's genuine random!!!!!1111 because it's always within parameters. It's like close to being random, but not fully.

I've bin following a high limit slots guy on the net:

You do not have permission to view link Log in or register now.

So basicly this guy apparently has money like water, proberly a forest behind his house growing dollar bills. He spends alot of time living the casino life, where high limit is his standard. I am talking about slots pushing 600 dollar a spin. You'd expect that on some point he wins a very high price or something, but it's always 1400 to 3500 on avg, and sometimes a spike in the 10 grand territory.

Now that i know how slots general work; the reason for him not hitting extreme huge jackpot on such bets is very simple. There is no volume on those slots he plays, he's proberly the only one going extreme on max bet. This basicly offers no real headroom when winning jackpots to be honest.

Seen it in my own casino as well. A machine tends to trigger 'better' on 20 a spin rather then 40 / 60 a spin. The magic is kinda gone from this point if you ask me. The math's just ensure the slot will never payout more then it's setup for.

So people chasing huge sums, unless the machine or slot is heavily played on, forget it.

Maybe you should stick to land casinos...seems you have better luck. It's that simple..


Actually next time you go to land based casino. I'd like for you to play that slot Machine where you stop the reels and videotape an entire session and I would like to see you stop the wheels like you do and I'd like to see the results. Would be nice to prove your theory that you can stop the machine on a win at land based casino. But not just on one spin....the entire time you are on that slot...just to prove us wrong.

 

[goatwack]

I'll be sure to make a mint going into land based casinos. Sure, the security might seem a bit baffled by my attire but I need to try the slam stop stuff.

Will be a tad hard to explain the boxing gloves but hey ho

 

[Bloatgoat]

Maybe you should stick to land casinos...seems you have better luck. It's that simple..


Actually next time you go to land based casino. I'd like for you to play that slot Machine where you stop the reels and videotape an entire session and I would like to see you stop the wheels like you do and I'd like to see the results. Would be nice to prove your theory that you can stop the machine on a win at land based casino. But not just on one spin....the entire time you are on that slot...just to prove us wrong.

I had an attempt to film my complete session, see the last 4 vids on my channel:

You do not have permission to view link Log in or register now.

few notes on that:

- Handpay took really long in between. I requested to turn the 250 euro limit off as they do for me in my own casino, but they where not allowed in the location i where.

- I quit filming after the 4th video, and where i stopped filming i happend to win a 1500. I left the place with profit that is yes.

I am going soon again with another live session; but i make sure that everything is 'set' and that i actually have my battery pack along with me. So subscribe i guess and see for yourself.

I'll be sure to make a mint going into land based casinos. Sure, the security might seem a bit baffled by my attire but I need to try the slam stop stuff.

Will be a tad hard to explain the boxing gloves but hey ho

I dont know which casino's you visit but i never saw any knuckle based security guy standing on the door. That must be a real awfull landbased casino then.

 

[trancemonkey]

so you can change the outcome of the spins to win or lose more and you still say its random??? That's like using weighted dice so snake eyes hit more and still calling the roll random.

Ahh suchfun ... ignoring every post and explanation about how slots work randomly. It's quite funny to see.

 

[trancemonkey]

I had an attempt to film my complete session, see the last 4 vids on my channel:

You do not have permission to view link Log in or register now.

few notes on that:

- Handpay took really long in between. I requested to turn the 250 euro limit off as they do for me in my own casino, but they where not allowed in the location i where.

- I quit filming after the 4th video, and where i stopped filming i happend to win a 1500. I left the place with profit that is yes.

I am going soon again with another live session; but i make sure that everything is 'set' and that i actually have my battery pack along with me. So subscribe i guess and see for yourself.



I dont know which casino's you visit but i never saw any knuckle based security guy standing on the door. That must be a real awfull landbased casino then.

Also make sure I'm those WMS machines you find one that doesn't just spin the next three symbols in after you press to slam stop.. You know, like they do but that you don't believe.

 

[trancemonkey]

Trust me, one of the joints in germany i saw stated all his machines where 60% RTP. That's ridiculous anyway. They make an avg of 100 euro a day per machine times 8. 800 times 30 is 24k a month. He also stated that any servicing or maintaince was only allowed by the company who licenced out those machines. If he would tamper around with it he'd lose his licence.

I know a former employee who sold such a joint, the new owner simply resetted that RTP on all machines back to 70%. It's all about making money here Trancemonkey.

I can guarantee you that no major manufacturer does machines at an RTP of lower than 82% (including VLT markets).

So what manufacturers were in this 60% or 70% casino? Was it an illegal venue running novomatic or ETG games? I know of a lot of venues in Greece for example that have illegal software which look like Novo or ETG but are dodgy software...

 

[Steviedoo]

I can guarantee you that no major manufacturer does machines at an RTP of lower than 82% (including VLT markets).

So what manufacturers were in this 60% or 70% casino? Was it an illegal venue running novomatic or ETG games? I know of a lot of venues in Greece for example that have illegal software which look like Novo or ETG but are dodgy software...

Hmmm rumour has it that Canadian casinos rtp are low...run about 75%.

 

[trancemonkey]

Hmmm rumour has it that Canadian casinos rtp are low...run about 75%.

Well, as IGT operate most (if not all) the VLT market in Canada, i can tell you exactly what RTP's they are set to... and it's no less than 92%.
As for the casino markets, i can also guarantee you they are not down that low - we simply don't make maths at those RTP's. If they are, then they are using dodgy software.
The lowest casino (non-VLT) RTP's that all the major manufacturers make is for Las Vegas, which can be as low as 86%.

 

[trancemonkey]

Hmmm rumour has it that Canadian casinos rtp are low...run about 75%.

As this thread proves many times - never let facts get in the way of a good rumour

 

[Bloatgoat]

I can guarantee you that no major manufacturer does machines at an RTP of lower than 82% (including VLT markets).

So what manufacturers were in this 60% or 70% casino? Was it an illegal venue running novomatic or ETG games? I know of a lot of venues in Greece for example that have illegal software which look like Novo or ETG but are dodgy software...

I really have no idea. They licence machines from a vendor ( i think it's novomatic or the other ) and they can select the desired RTP on those slots. No maintaince could be done by the joint who's exploiting those machines except for a reboot or refill or whatever. If they would do that, they would lose their licence.

But in general, i dont visit these places at all. The games are really shit and the type of people coming over there is just not my thing. I visit landbased (official by state) and it's much better organised over there. We headed over a few times to such places; had a beer, a gamble but nothing fancy.

You'd really need to wait exactly one hour to withdrawl 500 euro on those machines. A guy won 3k... had to wait 6 hours before he'd had his money.

 

[trancemonkey]

I really have no idea. They licence machines from a vendor ( i think it's novomatic or the other ) and they can select the desired RTP on those slots. No maintaince could be done by the joint who's exploiting those machines except for a reboot or refill or whatever. If they would do that, they would lose their licence.

But in general, i dont visit these places at all. The games are really shit and the type of people coming over there is just not my thing. I visit landbased (official by state) and it's much better organised over there. We headed over a few times to such places; had a beer, a gamble but nothing fancy.

You'd really need to wait exactly one hour to withdrawl 500 euro on those machines. A guy won 3k... had to wait 6 hours before he'd had his money.

Sounds like an illegal venue to me...

 

[Bloatgoat]

Sounds like an illegal venue to me...

I really have no idea. They'd risk their licence if they did. Or the vendor who provides machines is messing around. Frankly i dont care.

 

[Sonict]

Hmmm rumour has it that Canadian casinos rtp are low...run about 75%.

Good thing this is a rumour like what Tracemonkey has said. Since I live in the province of Ontario, I can tell you that the slot RTP can't be lower than 85% according to this document on the OLG ( Ontario Lottery and Gaming ) website: Old / Expired Link <-- Look at the lower left hand side.

 

[trancemonkey]

Good thing this is a rumour like what Tracemonkey has said. Since I live in the province of Ontario, I can tell you that the slot RTP can't be lower than 85% according to this document on the OLG ( Ontario Lottery and Gaming ) website: Old / Expired Link <-- Look at the lower left hand side.

Yeah that's the legal minimum but most operate much higher than that.

Believe it or not, in Nevada the legal minimum is 75%.

And in the UK, there is no legal minimum any more!

 

[Tengil]

Hi,

how can a game like Yggdrasils Valley of the Gods be "legal"? A game that starts with 45 ways up to 3125 ways. And yet the hitrate actually is considerably lower at the respins and about the same at 3125 as it is at 45. There's no mention in the rules about different odds of winning depending on the ways.
Its ridiculously "fake" anyway with some wins that are very common at first spin becomes basically impossible to hit at the second respin.

Granted its a "scratchcard" slot I personally consider that borderline fraud/cheating and can not understand how anyone would license such a game. And ftr I don't question the randomness of the result itself when you click spin just the way its presented. There must be some limit how much you can visually misrepresent the odds of winning.

So I would guess they can get away with it by claiming something along the line its a single spin or something similar.

 

[Bloatgoat]

Ok so your point being? Is it legal such practices? Your proberly having bad luck as others in here would say.

If you want my opinion on slots, you really should read a few pages / posts back.