Slotocash SUB choices and RTP

[ChopleyIOM]

Hi all,

I've installed the Slotocash software and am ready to make my first deposit. Not had much love for RTG in the past (indeed I stopped playing at RTG casinos years ago) but Slotocash are accredited here at CM, have an active rep and feedback in general seems to be good so thought I'd have a punt.

It's going to be bonus play for me at this casino so obviously it's important to choose the right bonus as you can only have one at a time and most choices preclude the opportunity to try other bonuses later on, the choices can be found here:

Old / Expired Link

KasinoKing has already crunched the numbers here -

You do not have permission to view link Log in or register now.

- which takes a lot of the calculator work out of it, but I'm still bemused by a few things (this includes the RTP question).

1) Anyone know why the 'real series' slots are excluded from this promotion? Are they higher paying or something? Old / Expired Link This would be my bonus of choice except it effectively bars playing on the vast majority of slots (rather strange for a slots bonus.....).

Also, here it says that the WR is 20xD Old / Expired Link, but here it says that the WR for the same bonus is 20xD+B, big difference! Old / Expired Link

Which WR is correct?

2) What RTP do the slots run to? CM lists '95-97' on his accredited list, but I've gone into a few of the games and I can't find any RTP information in the game help files or on the paytables, and I can't find anything on the Slotocash site either. Also, do RTG have different maths models that casinos can choose from?

3) There doesn't appear to be any bonus that allows play on progressive slots (penalties vary from getting all wins voided to not contributing to the WR). Is there a good reason for this? Surely the chances of hitting a progressive are so small as to not make much difference in the grand scheme of things?

Any help appreciated

 

[Sloto]

Hi ChopleyIOM

First off thank you for considering joining Sloto'Cash and I am happy to answer your questions.

With regards to the Alternative Slots Bonus, the wagering is 20xD+B and I will update this error. This bonus was introduced with low wagering for those who enjoy 3 line slots and alternative games such as scratchcards and keno, Real series are excluded due to low wagering of the bonus and the available high variance games.

Our expected RTP is 95% over all games. Over time the game will payout 95% but the actual rate fluctuates per individual gaming session which is why some players win and some loose.

RTG do not publish the RTP in the game help files and as yet we do not get our monthly payout % audited by a 3rd party which is why this is not stated on our website.

The reason we do not allow progressive slots with bonus play is because each spin contributes a % to the jackpots and bonus money is included so we choose to exclude from bonuses.

Best Regards

Ms Sloto

 

[LaHutti]

I invite you to take a look in the screenshots that suck thread, and see how many posts you can find, where people hit a progressive jackpot on a bonus, and where the RTG casino pocket these wins (Not just Sloto...)..I'm sure we don't get to see them all. I know I wouldn't post one, because I would feel SO stupid, playing on a bonus, with high playthrough, just to see the casino pocket my winnings.
THAT is the main reason I don't play RTG any more.

/derail

 

[KasinoKing]

I invite you to take a look in the screenshots that suck thread, and see how many posts you can find, where people hit a progressive jackpot on a bonus, and where the RTG casino pocket these wins (Not just Sloto...)..I'm sure we don't get to see them all. I know I wouldn't post one, because I would feel SO stupid, playing on a bonus, with high playthrough, just to see the casino pocket my winnings.
THAT is the main reason I don't play RTG any more.

I think you may be getting a Progressive Jackpot confused with a Random Jackpot.
Most (all?) Real Series Slots have a Random Jackpot - these CAN be played with bonus funds.
Only a handful of games have Progressive Jackpots (MUCH bigger) - these are the slots you can't (usually) play when playing a bonus.

KK

 

[KasinoKing]

2) What RTP do the slots run to? CM lists '95-97' on his accredited list, but I've gone into a few of the games and I can't find any RTP information in the game help files or on the paytables, and I can't find anything on the Slotocash site either. Also, do RTG have different maths models that casinos can choose from?

Yes, there are up to 3 options for each slot.
The lowest was 91% - but CM has stated in the past that he was told this is not used by online casinos.
The mid-range was 94 or 95%
The high end was 97.5%
At one time this info was available online - but it got pulled about 2 years ago. (That's why I say "was" and not "is" - they may have changed since then)
However, I did get a look at this info and I have listed these RTPs on the RTG page of my SlotBeaters.com website.

One other thing to take into account, is that up to 1.5% of the RTP goes into the Random Jackpots.
(Not hit one myself yet...)

KK

 

[deucebag]

Yes, there are up to 3 options for each slot.
The lowest was 91% - but CM has stated in the past that he was told this is not used by online casinos.
The mid-range was 94 or 95%
The high end was 97.5%

Why do you continue to spread misinformation? This information is wrong. As I have pointed out a couple of times before, SlotoCash runs at least one of their slots (Fruit Frenzy) at 91%. I think it's only reasonable to think that most of their slots are set at 91%.

 

[LaHutti]

I stand corrected

What I was thinking about, was playing a ND bonus, and not a deposit bonus.
When playing a ND bonus, random jackpots won't be paid. Sorry for the confusion, and thanks KK for clearing it up.

I think you may be getting a Progressive Jackpot confused with a Random Jackpot.
Most (all?) Real Series Slots have a Random Jackpot - these CAN be played with bonus funds.
Only a handful of games have Progressive Jackpots (MUCH bigger) - these are the slots you can't (usually) play when playing a bonus.

KK

 

[Tirilej]

Why do you continue to spread misinformation? This information is wrong. As I have pointed out a couple of times before, SlotoCash runs at least one of their slots (Fruit Frenzy) at 91%. I think it's only reasonable to think that most of their slots are set at 91%.

I would say that he is spreading the information Bryan has been getting from the casinos. It would sound nicer if you blamed Bryan for spreading misinformation to us that he has been getting.
We don't know what the settings are, but you just said that it's resonable to think that Sloto was lying in the post she made earlier in this very thread.
I have to assume that an accredited casino is not lying about something like that.

 

[maphesto]

Why do you continue to spread misinformation? This information is wrong. As I have pointed out a couple of times before, SlotoCash runs at least one of their slots (Fruit Frenzy) at 91%. I think it's only reasonable to think that most of their slots are set at 91%.

Read this!

https://www.casinomeister.com/forums/threads/rtg-and-rtp-the-official-word.38348/

KK did not spread misinformation, CM has stated that he has been told that this is not used by online casinos.

BTW, I am fully aware of the Fruit Frenzy-thing and I think you are right there.

 

[KasinoKing]

Why do you continue to spread misinformation? This information is wrong. As I have pointed out a couple of times before, SlotoCash runs at least one of their slots (Fruit Frenzy) at 91%. I think it's only reasonable to think that most of their slots are set at 91%.

As others had said above, I myself have never stated which RPT version any casinos are running.
That's because I honestly don't know.
You are entitled to assume anything you like, but in my experience assuming is a dangerous game...

KK

 

[deucebag]

We don't know what the settings are, but you just said that it's resonable to think that Sloto was lying in the post she made earlier in this very thread.
I have to assume that an accredited casino is not lying about something like that.

We do know what the setting for one slot is, we have that straight from the horses mouth, from the person who made the slot, and it is 91%. I find it extremely doubtful that this setting is limited to one slot.

Also, please note that Sloto rep said "our expected RTP is 95% over all games". Obviously "all games" include table games and video poker, and those games pay out more than 95%. This could well bring the average to 95%, even when many of the slots have the 91% RTP.

 

[Tirilej]

We do know what the setting for one slot is, we have that straight from the horses mouth, from the person who made the slot, and it is 91%. I find it extremely doubtful that this setting is limited to one slot.

Also, please note that Sloto rep said "our expected RTP is 95% over all games". Obviously "all games" include table games and video poker, and those games pay out more than 95%. This could well bring the average to 95%, even when many of the slots have the 91% RTP.

I totally agree with you here and I don't want to play at a casino that has that game set at 91%, but that doesn't make neither KK, Bryan or Sloto a lier, and that was what I reacted on when you made the last post.

 

[deucebag]

I totally agree with you here and I don't want to play at a casino that has that game set at 91%, but that doesn't make neither KK, Bryan or Sloto a lier, and that was what I reacted on when you made the last post.

I didn't call anyone a liar. KasinoKing is spreading misinformation because he says the Casinomeister has said the 91% setting is not used by online casinos. The Casinomeister has never said that, to my knowledge. He's said the the 91% setting was primarily developed for asian kiosks, which is very different statement from saying it's not used online.

KasinoKing gave the impression that 91% is not used online, when he knows for a fact that the opposite is true.

 

[chuchu59]

I didn't call anyone a liar. KasinoKing is spreading misinformation because he says the Casinomeister has said the 91% setting is not used by online casinos. The Casinomeister has never said that, to my knowledge. He's said the the 91% setting was primarily developed for asian kiosks, which is very different statement from saying it's not used online.

KasinoKing gave the impression that 91% is not used online, when he knows for a fact that the opposite is true.

I dont think for a second that KK was trying to mislead. The 91% settings are rarely used online. Frankly they dont need to when the 95% version will wear you out with the ridiculous (d+b) playthrough on bonuses. Any casinos or groups that use the 91% settings are likely to lose a lot of customers in the long run as players are pretty smart nowadays.

My gut feeling is that Slotocash/Desert Nights and the Win Palace Group have a lower setting than say Inetbet, Club World and Jackpot Capital. Nope, no evidence whatsoever just a gut feeling.

 

[ChopleyIOM]

Thanks for all the replies, very helpful

So in summary then (I also read the thread linked where CM reports what he was told by an RTG about their slots' expected RTP and maths models).

1) RTG have a 97%, 95% and 91.5% RTP setting for their slots, the 97% setting appears to have been phased out in the last couple of years and the 91.5% setting isn't 'intended' for use online but it can be.

2) Slotocash do have at least one 91.5% RTP slot on their casino.

3) Expected RTP across ALL GAMES at Slotocash is 95%, which as correctly identified above suggests that the 98-99% RTP of table games, pokers and blackjacks is compensating for lower RTP slots in that figure.

4) Slotocash do not have any audited payout figures to show us.

That's too many unanswered questions in my book, given the hefty D+B WRs on the bonuses and the uncertainty around the RTP of the slots at Slotocash, I'm not prepared to risk any money playing there, unless we can get an answer to the following question.

Ms Sloto - Are you able to tell us which RTG maths model you are running on your slots at Slotocash? Is it any and/or all of the 97%, 95% or 91.5% settings? If you are running different maths models on different slots, is there any way for the player to find out what slot is running which model?

Or in simpler terms, what is the RTP of your SLOTS games and not an 'all games' RTP that just lumps everything in together?

Thanks

 

[KasinoKing]

[nit-pick mode]

1) RTG have a 97%, 95% and 91.5% RTP setting for their slots...

No they don't.
They have (or had) 97.5%, 95%, 94% and 91%.

I am only pointing this out because MsSloto could post here that NONE of their slots are set to 91.5% - and that would be true since that is not one of the options!
[/nit-pick mode]

KK

 

[ChopleyIOM]

[nit-pick mode]

No they don't.
They have (or had) 97.5%, 95%, 94% and 91%.

I am only pointing this out because MsSloto could post here that NONE of their slots are set to 91.5% - and that would be true since that is not one of the options!
[/nit-pick mode]

KK

Fair enough

However, I think it's pretty obvious that the basic question is just 'Can you please tell us what the RTP of your slots is?' irrespective of 0.5% here and there on quoted maths models, but I have added in a specific question to my previous post nonetheless.

 

[LaHutti]

If you get a steaight answer, you will have achieved what noone has been able to achieve from any RTG casino to this date, and I'll salute you, AND eat my old knitted hat !

 

[ChopleyIOM]

If you get a steaight answer, you will have achieved what noone has been able to achieve from any RTG casino to this date, and I'll salute you, AND eat my old knitted hat !

Forgive my ignorance here, because I have basically ignored Playtech and RTG casinos for the last four years after having had a couple of bad experiences with withdrawals, but how on earth can casinos operate and be accredited if they can't/won't release something as fundamental as the RTP of the slots they're running?

MG are bad enough with their '95% for all slots' statement, but at least it's something tangible that gets audited and they do split out the various game categories into separate RTPs.

I'm very much a 'glass is half full' person so I remain optimistic that Ms Sloto will be able to inform its playerbase (both current and potential) here at CM which RTG maths model Slotocash has chosen for their slots

 

[doc3738]

Sloto cash and other RTG

For the most part I have quit playing at all Rtg based casinos .
The w/r to me was unreasonable and then if you look real close in the fine print or at least it was there is a line something like this
"No random jackpot win can be won bigger than the deposit made". Now,does that mean overall deposits or does it mean deposits for that day week month
I have not been able to get an answer to that and then you add that you can't get the RTP it makes me steer clear. Rep on board or not
Audits or not is not a big deal. A RNG can be changed on the fly as you play . You can be playing a game with a 98% payback and by the next pull you might say it is at a 85%
payback or vise versa
All land based casinos more so with unregulated ones can walk up and within a few minutes change the payout on a machine from pulling the board out and swapping with another or pull the machine and set another one just like it in its place
I do not put a lot of stock into payback per centage and audits

 

[Sloto]

The question asked was regarding our slots payout, so my apologies for not being clear. The slots expected payout rate overall slot games (excluding table and skill based games) is 95%.

Best Regards

Ms Sloto

 

[ChopleyIOM]

The question asked was regarding our slots payout, so my apologies for not being clear. The slots expected payout rate overall slot games (excluding table and skill based games) is 95%.

Best Regards

Ms Sloto

Thank you for the reply Ms Sloto, that is reassuring.

Can I please ask more specifically though if ALL your slots are running the 95% maths model, (or the closest to it, it has been suggested that some RTG slots have a 94% maths model as opposed to a 95% model), specifically, I would really like to know whether or not any of your slots are running the 91.5% maths model and if the player has any means of identifying which (if any) these slots are.

I hope you can appreciate that there's a big difference between playing a slot at 91.5% RTP and 95% RTP, especially over an extended session on a single slot! (I'm one of those players who will 'plug away' at a single slot for a long time, in some cases many thousands of spins, and I don't want to get involved with a slot at 91.5% RTP! )

Thanks

 

[cheetahwind]

As per Casinomeister himself,

All slots will run at the 95% percent rating if that's what the casino has it set at.

/end of his quote

Therefore, there is NO one particular slot that will run at 91%. They just can't go in like a land based casino and say one slot is to be run at 91%, then the rest at 95%. So I dunno where all of you are getting this Fruit Frenzy runs at 91% and everything else doesn't.

I don't care what information or so called mislogic ya'll on posting about Fruit Frenzy or what myths you are all posting, but Sloto has said the casino runs at 95%. So therefore all slots will run at 95% not 91%. I really think we have some horrendous Tin Foil hat time going on here. I myself have had some rather good runs at Sloto.

I realize sometime ago, someone got really big headed and said. Well if there's a double pear, there must be running at the lowest setting possible. Yet why would Bryan post on the front page of the web site the software runs at a minimum of 95% RTP. When apparently according to everyone else who has a large conspiracy theory going on. That well Bryan and Sloto are lying and there's 1, I kid you not apparently 1 slot (insert Tin Foil Hat time), that runs 91% so therefore Sloto and Bryan are liars.

Common people really? Lets let the whole RTP with RTG rest. If you don't like RTG, then fine quit playing there. It seems the same argument are brought up everytime, and no one has solid proof that there running once slot at lower RTP. Until someone can show me a screen shot of the back end of sloto, besides a coupon wager requirement screen. That shows one slot can be adjusted, I'm going to call this whole mess a conspiracy theory gone horribly wrong.

 

[ChopleyIOM]

As per Casinomeister himself,

All slots will run at the 95% percent rating if that's what the casino has it set at.

/end of his quote

Therefore, there is NO one particular slot that will run at 91%. They just can't go in like a land based casino and say one slot is to be run at 91%, then the rest at 95%. So I dunno where all of you are getting this Fruit Frenzy runs at 91% and everything else doesn't.

I don't care what information or so called mislogic ya'll on posting about Fruit Frenzy or what myths you are all posting, but Sloto has said the casino runs at 95%. So therefore all slots will run at 95% not 91%. I really think we have some horrendous Tin Foil hat time going on here. I myself have had some rather good runs at Sloto.

I realize sometime ago, someone got really big headed and said. Well if there's a double pear, there must be running at the lowest setting possible. Yet why would Bryan post on the front page of the web site the software runs at a minimum of 95% RTP. When apparently according to everyone else who has a large conspiracy theory going on. That well Bryan and Sloto are lying and there's 1, I kid you not apparently 1 slot (insert Tin Foil Hat time), that runs 91% so therefore Sloto and Bryan are liars.

Common people really? Lets let the whole RTP with RTG rest. If you don't like RTG, then fine quit playing there. It seems the same argument are brought up everytime, and no one has solid proof that there running once slot at lower RTP. Until someone can show me a screen shot of the back end of sloto, besides a coupon wager requirement screen. That shows one slot can be adjusted, I'm going to call this whole mess a conspiracy theory gone horribly wrong.

All hyperbole aside, I don't think it's an overly complicated question.

'What RTP do your slots run at, given that it is generally accepted that RTG slots have a LOW/MED/HIGH (91/95/97) maths model, are all your slots running to one model or does it vary, and does the player have any means of determining which maths model he is playing?'

Is that really so hard a question for any upstanding casino operation to answer?

Having read the thread linked below, I don't think it's unreasonable for me to ask the Slotocash rep for a straight answer before I deposit any funds:

https://www.casinomeister.com/forums/threads/fruit-frenzy-layout-at-doyles-hmmm.33284/

 

[cheetahwind]

Andy: Welcome to Casino Support. My name is Andy. How may I assist you today?
you: Hey Andy, I have a simple question. I was reading a thread in Casinomeister. Sloto replied that all of your slots are set at 95%. Can any one of your slots be set lower than 95%, are they all expected to pay out 95% overtime? Just wondering
Andy: Usually the payout rate is 95-97 % I don't have any information about lower %
Andy: FOr our Rival software they can go down to93%
you: ok, so the slots aren't going to pay any lower than 95% then. Everyone is going nuts claiming Fruit Frenzy is set lower than 95%
Andy: or up to 98 %
Andy: So for RTG system I think is the same they can't go down than this average limit
you: ok, thats all I wanted to know, thank you Andy
Andy: You are welcome

The above answers your question, just like on the front of the CM site. The settings are set between 95% and 97% varying on the slot. They won't be set any lower than that.
The other part of that that thread proved, that the 97% setting didn't have the double pear included in that setting. So it can only be assumed that the 95% setting would be where the double pear would be found. That's just a guess tho. So I'm still not sure where everyone is getting these wild accusations on how Fruit Frenzy could be paying at a 91% rating.

 

[KasinoKing]

The above answers your question, just like on the front of the CM site. The settings are set between 95% and 97% varying on the slot. They won't be set any lower than that.
The other part of that that thread proved, that the 97% setting didn't have the double pear included in that setting. So it can only be assumed that the 95% setting would be where the double pear would be found. That's just a guess tho. So I'm still not sure where everyone is getting these wild accusations on how Fruit Frenzy could be paying at a 91% rating.

Personally I have nothing against Sloto, but I think they are misinformed or unaware. For all their slots to average 95% RTP, quite a few would have to be on the 97.5% setting. This is because we know some slots have a middle setting of 94% with no 95% option, and there is also strong evidence to say that FF is on 91%.

The "wild accusations" are nothing of the sort; DogBoy, who works for the company who make RTG slots, stated somewhere in a post on this forum that the 2-Pear version is 91%. If you search long enough I'm sure you can find it.

I realise some people here think the RTP settings are vitally important, but for me (and probably most others here) it is not. I don't know the RTP of the vast majority of MG or Crypto slots, but those I like, I play. I do have the stated figures for Rival, IGT and NetEnt, but again, when I chose which ones to play I don't take the RTP into account - I just play the ones I like!

If anyone feels that strongly about the RTP's then I suggest they plot out the reel-strips and work it out!
This can only be done on slots which only have free-spins though, because "pick features" are an unknown factor.
It could possibly be done for Fruit Frenzy, but would only be accurate if it was know that the "Shoot the Strawberry" bonus feature had a genuine 50/50 chance of hitting the centre of the Melon. My inclination is that this is not completely random.

KK

 

[chuchu59]

Personally I have nothing against Sloto, but I think they are misinformed or unaware. For all their slots to average 95% RTP, quite a few would have to be on the 97.5% setting. This is because we know some slots have a middle setting of 94% with no 95% option, and there is also strong evidence to say that FF is on 91%.

The "wild accusations" are nothing of the sort; DogBoy, who works for the company who make RTG slots, stated somewhere in a post on this forum that the 2-Pear version is 91%. If you search long enough I'm sure you can find it.

I realise some people here think the RTP settings are vitally important, but for me (and probably most others here) it is not. I don't know the RTP of the vast majority of MG or Crypto slots, but those I like, I play. I do have the stated figures for Rival, IGT and NetEnt, but again, when I chose which ones to play I don't take the RTP into account - I just play the ones I like!

If anyone feels that strongly about the RTP's then I suggest they plot out the reel-strips and work it out!
This can only be done on slots which only have free-spins though, because "pick features" are an unknown factor.
It could possibly be done for Fruit Frenzy, but would only be accurate if it was know that the "Shoot the Strawberry" bonus feature had a genuine 50/50 chance of hitting the centre of the Melon. My inclination is that this is not completely random.

KK

Several years ago there was a glitch where none of the 3 shots hit the melon and this was experienced by everyone playing that slot during the period including myself. This was admitted by a rep(cant remember who) and the rtp was thus lowered considerably during that period. Functions normally now though all 3 shots hitting the centre is a rare occurence and that is even worse than Basketbull.

 

[ChopleyIOM]

I realise some people here think the RTP settings are vitally important, but for me (and probably most others here) it is not. I don't know the RTP of the vast majority of MG or Crypto slots, but those I like, I play. I do have the stated figures for Rival, IGT and NetEnt, but again, when I chose which ones to play I don't take the RTP into account - I just play the ones I like!

That's bonkers!

RTP is the single most important thing when it comes to a slot, it's the absolute fundamental value that informs the player what the house edge is and what he can expect to achieve in the long term as a payout.

At what point would you start to think RTP was relevant? Lower than 92%, lower than 90%, how about if someone started churning slots out at 80% RTP?

I have to say your statement above is quite amazing to me KK, for someone who's been around as long as you have, 'RTP isn't vitally important' is a bizarre thing to say IMO!

 

[Tirilej]

I must say that I feel the exact way as KK. I play to escape time some, for reacreation purpose. If I win then fine, but if I don't I hope I at least had a great time playing.
I only chose to play games that I like so what would I care what the settings for those games are.
Wherever I play I have to assume that the casino is not trying to cheat on me. If I feel that way, then it's time to stop playing.
I realized yesterday that I havn't in one single post accused a casino of cheating, or complained about losing.
I give the casinos a fair chance and if I don't like them or the way they are doing their business I don't play there

 

[KasinoKing]

That's bonkers!

RTP is the single most important thing when it comes to a slot, it's the absolute fundamental value that informs the player what the house edge is and what he can expect to achieve in the long term as a payout.

At what point would you start to think RTP was relevant? Lower than 92%, lower than 90%, how about if someone started churning slots out at 80% RTP?

I have to say your statement above is quite amazing to me KK, for someone who's been around as long as you have, 'RTP isn't vitally important' is a bizarre thing to say IMO!

Bonkers in your opinion - but not in mine.

To guarantee to achieve the long-term pay-out which exactly matches the RTP you would have to play tens of millions of spins. Unfortunately I am not going to live that long!

Obviously I would not be happy to play slots below 90%, but any in the mid-90s is fine by me.
You have to remember, ALL slots have a house edge which means the players theoretically lose in the end. So the most important thing is that players get entertained while playing. It's the features and the variance with provide the excitement, not the RTP.

Let me ask you a question:
Would you rather play an extremely low variance slot with an RTP of 99.5% where the maximum win is 5 x your bet,
Or a high variance slot with 90% RTP and a maximum win of 10,000 x your bet?

KK

 

[ChopleyIOM]

Let me ask you a question:
Would you rather play an extremely low variance slot with an RTP of 99.5% where the maximum win is 5 x your bet,
Or a high variance slot with 90% RTP and a maximum win of 10,000 x your bet?

But that's not a fair question, as no such low variance slot exists.

As for higher variance slots, that's where RTP becomes even more critical, because the wins are rarer but bigger, a high variance slot at a relatively low RTP will eat you alive.

A really good example of this is a slot at Jackpot Party called 'The Trouble With Tribbles', which is a a high variance slot with some monster wins on the paytable. The base 92% Jackpot Party payout (they state a total of 95% but it's split 92% base games 3% progressives) properly hurts after a while on this game, I took a bit of a kicking on it in real play so to satisfy my curiosity I loaded up on play money and set about it.

It took over £1250 of play money at 35p spin and never once did I get a single win of over £50, (I gave up at that point), that's high variance and low RTP in action, and the thing with RTP is that it's like 'compound interest' on a credit card (where you pay interest on the interest), with an online slot because you're constantly recycling your wins, the difference between 95% RTP and 92% RTP over an extended session is MASSIVE.

And then when you consider there are slots out there paying 97.5% RTP, the idea that RTP 'doesn't really matter' seems absolutely crackers to me.

RTP is also of massive importance when you're trying to meet a WR, there's a big difference between every spin 'costing' 5% of stake or 8% of stake......


EDIT TO ADD - Which is why RTP is very relevant to me playing at Slotocash, as I'm going to be a bonus player there, so knowing I'm playing slots at 94/95% is important, if I happen across a 91.5% slot and play it for a few thousand spins, that's going to really hurt my chances of meeting the WR.

 

[Jufo]

That's bonkers!

RTP is the single most important thing when it comes to a slot, it's the absolute fundamental value that informs the player what the house edge is and what he can expect to achieve in the long term as a payout.

At what point would you start to think RTP was relevant? Lower than 92%, lower than 90%, how about if someone started churning slots out at 80% RTP?

I have to say your statement above is quite amazing to me KK, for someone who's been around as long as you have, 'RTP isn't vitally important' is a bizarre thing to say IMO!

I wonder if there may be some self-interest involved with stating that RTP is not that important value.

 

[chuchu59]

As an affiliate Kasino King gets revenue based on player losses so obviously it makes sense for him to state that RTP is not an important value.

I think KK explained his position on the importance of RTP to the average player pretty well. I doubt whether his arguments centred on him being an affiliate. Those who do not understand what RTP is wont give a shit to the implications of a higher/lower RTP. Of course, when we are talking of identical slots with different RTPs but with same graphics, features etc. the importance of RTP comes into play. If an RTG casino stated its slots had an expected RTP of 95% I would choose it over one that states their slots were at 91%.

 

[KasinoKing]

But that's not a fair question, as no such low variance slot exists.

Obviously not. I just made up that extreme example to try to get you to see things from a different perspective.

RTP is also of massive importance when you're trying to meet a WR, there's a big difference between every spin 'costing' 5% of stake or 8% of stake.....

I do agree with this to a certain extent, but like I said earlier in the thread - to guarantee getting close to T-RTP you would have to play millions of spins - not even RTG WRs are that high!
The variance is a much more important factor for me personally.

EDIT TO ADD - Which is why RTP is very relevant to me playing at Slotocash, as I'm going to be a bonus player there, so knowing I'm playing slots at 94/95% is important, if I happen across a 91.5% slot and play it for a few thousand spins, that's going to really hurt my chances of meeting the WR.

Again, without variance you are screwed either way.
With Sloto's WR of (D+B)x25 you need to achieve 98% RTP during your wagering just to break even (Lose your bonus, but still have your deposit left at the end). I think we ALL agree that none of their slots are set that high!
The only way you might achieve a profit is by hitting a big win or three. That requires variance.

Listen, I think you are misunderstanding me; I'm not saying that RTP is not at all important, just that it's not the MOST important thing.
Obviously I would rather play a 97.5% RTP version of a slot than a 91% version of the same slot - only an idiot would say otherwise.
And I 100% agree that ALL casinos should publish the T-RTPs of ALL their slots individually.
Until that happens players have a simple choice: Only play slots where they know the RTP, or just play anyway and hope the RTP is a reasonable figure.
What else can we do?

KK

 

[aceking123]

hi all . my version of online gaming rtp% ( real time gaming ) is many many machines are not 95% set from any RTG software i would guess that only around 25% of them are with constant changing aswell . ive played RTG for a while but gave it a couple of months ago . mainly because i could only ever win on free chips at a alarming rate, i tried about everything in the book never once did it work , i would not recommend playing any rtg casinos at all , something has changed with that software many years ago & no longer trust it another reason to why i dont play there aswell , but good luck if you do )

 

[ChopleyIOM]

I do agree with this to a certain extent, but like I said earlier in the thread - to guarantee getting close to T-RTP you would have to play millions of spins - not even RTG WRs are that high!
The variance is a much more important factor for me personally.

'Guaranteeing' getting close to T-RTP and achieving 'comfortably close to it' are very different things though, a few thousand spins should see you 'in the region' of T-RTP, and a few thousand spins will also be enough to potentially hurt far more on a 92% slot than on a 96% slot.

Even if you fall 5% below T-RTP on the 96% slot, you're still only 1% behind a player who achieves actual T-RTP on a 92% slot.

Again, without variance you are screwed either way.
With Sloto's WR of (D+B)x25 you need to achieve 98% RTP during your wagering just to break even (Lose your bonus, but still have your deposit left at the end). I think we ALL agree that none of their slots are set that high!
The only way you might achieve a profit is by hitting a big win or three. That requires variance.

Yes and no! You're getting into the realms of standard deviations now. I'm nowhere near good enough at the maths to work it out but I do agree that to meet the Slotocash WR you need to achieve an average 98% RTP to get out of there with your deposit intact.

This is where standard deviation comes in - if all the slots you play have a T-RTP of 95%, then it's not massively unlikely that you'll meet the WR by achieving an RTP of 98%, yes you'll need to achieve a higher RTP than the slots are set to, but it's probably not insane standard deviations for it to happen.

However, try and meet the same WR on 92% slots, and it's now far more unlikely that you'll sustain the required RTP of 98%, and probably getting into the realms of standard deviations away from the norm whereby statistically it's really not going to happen.

So RTP does always count IMO!

 

[cheetahwind]

Ok, ok so I give, I get that maybe each slot has a slightly different return, but when I've how many countless threads. About how each slot is rigged, and how many different ways RTG tries to rip us off. I guess it just seems to be getting old hat.
I realize that yes, making sure that if you deposit and play, that your going to get a fair shake.
I can tell you though, out of all of the RTG casinos I have played at. Sloto has been the most generous and fair in the way of match bonuses, and cash back opportunities. It seems like everytime I go bust they offer me another chance to win. The nice thing about the cash back system is yes they do have a max cashout on the coupon itself, but once the excess cash has been removed automatically by the system. Your free to rebuild the coupon back up to whatever you want to cash out to, and play anything you wish. At that point they call the money yours.

 

[Jufo]

Yes and no! You're getting into the realms of standard deviations now. I'm nowhere near good enough at the maths to work it out but I do agree that to meet the Slotocash WR you need to achieve an average 98% RTP to get out of there with your deposit intact.

This is where standard deviation comes in - if all the slots you play have a T-RTP of 95%, then it's not massively unlikely that you'll meet the WR by achieving an RTP of 98%, yes you'll need to achieve a higher RTP than the slots are set to, but it's probably not insane standard deviations for it to happen.

However, try and meet the same WR on 92% slots, and it's now far more unlikely that you'll sustain the required RTP of 98%, and probably getting into the realms of standard deviations away from the norm whereby statistically it's really not going to happen.

So RTP does always count IMO!

Yes, exactly. At 95% setting you still have to end up higher than the long term average to meet the wr, but the number of standard deviations you have to beat to make it is significantly lower than with lower RTP setting. Of course you might have a player who wants to have the maximum challenge and might therefore prefer the lower RTP setting

I sometimes think of house edge in terms of analogy in physics - the gravity. Imagine that you are a very light object that is flying in the sky. Random winds push you up or down (wins and losses) and your altitude from the ground is your balance. Now if you assume that there is no gravity, you sometimes hit strong winds that blow upwards and you may end up very high from the ground (large win). But add gravity (=house edge) that constantly exerts a downward force on you and you will notice that getting to high altitude is considerably more challenging and you will find yourself hitting the ground (=losing whole balance) much more often. Despite KK's statement that house edge only manifests itself over a very large number of spins, the thing is that it is still always there: in my analogy the downward force of gravity is always present.