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Fruit Frenzy Layout at Doyles...hmmm....

Discussion in 'Online Casinos' started by LooneyTunez, Aug 31, 2009.

    Aug 31, 2009
  1. LooneyTunez

    LooneyTunez Senior Member

    Occupation:
    Bartender
    Location:
    Somewhere out there
    Let me start by saying that I've been playing RTG for many years and Fruit Frenzy has been a long time favorite. I know this slot like the back of my hand, and the screenshot below reveals something that has me VERY concerned! On "reel 2", there are 2 "pear" symbols (one on top of the other)...this is NOT NORMAL...let me repeat, NOT NORMAL. A glitch maybe? Logged out, and back into "Fun Mode", and the beginning state of the reels shows the "pears" inline with each other too. Guess it's not a glitch, and something is awry here.

    This is my second deposit with Doyles, with my first being a couple months ago, and when I made my first deposit, the reels did not have this layout. I haven't contacted support yet, as I'd like to get some thoughts here first. Anybody else want to confirm my findings, before I pursue this "issue" any further?
     
    4 people like this.
  2. Aug 31, 2009
  3. hippo925

    hippo925 Dormant account

    Occupation:
    medical field
    Location:
    so cal
    good observation. i'm guessing that it is just a glitch, but i'm actually not sure that it would matter. Most likely, every slot we play online has some sort of dynamic weighting and the symbols we see are really just for entertainment. If you bet 1.00 and win 2.40, the software chooses a layout of symbols that will equal 2.40. I know a lot of people actually think the reels randomly land in a certain position and THEN rewards 2.40, but there is too much evidence to the contrary. The only online slot that works the way most people think is the one on the wizard of odds site (he programmed it so that the program picks FIVE random numbers, one for EACH independent reel.)

    Most online slots uses the RNG just to determine the amount won or lost, then a graphical representation is shown. That is the idea behind virtual reels. Keep in mind, it's still random (though not like most people think.) Really, we are relying on the honestly and integrity of the sofware provider to set the RNG to actual reel strips versus arbitrary paybacks.

    But still looking forward to what you find out! (maybe they just have their slots set to a payback that other casinos don't use... therefore the different "layout" representation?)
     
  4. Aug 31, 2009
  5. De Beuker

    De Beuker Senior Member

    Occupation:
    Production
    Location:
    Netherlands
    Funny you post about this now, I've noticed this too, but not at Doyles, so I think this is a general change?
    Can't remember which RTG I saw this, but it was not Doyles, as I have no account there.
     
  6. Aug 31, 2009
  7. KasinoKing

    KasinoKing WebMeister & Slotaholic.. CAG MM PABnonaccred webmeister

    Occupation:
    House-Husband and Casino Advisor
    Location:
    Bexhill on sea, England
    Yes, I noticed this too a few weeks back. I thought it was very strange as I could not recall seeing two same symbols next to each other on this slot before - though I don't play RTG very much, so I wasn't certain.
    I was playing at BuzzLuck.

    Unlike Hippo, I believe the reel stops are random and the win is generated afterwards, and also that the reel strips are a fixed pattern for each different return % setting. My guess therefore is that the "double pear" only appears on the game set to minimum returns.

    It would be VERY interesting if everyone who plays at any RTG casino could log in & take a look to see what they have...

    KK
     
    1 person likes this.
  8. Sep 2, 2009
  9. nisosbar

    nisosbar Ueber Meister PABnonaccred

    Occupation:
    Other
    Location:
    Right here
    There should be the symbol for three balloons beneath the pear on the second reel. That's what it looks like on Aladdin's Gold.
     
  10. Sep 2, 2009
  11. DogBoy001

    DogBoy001 Senior Member webmeister

    Occupation:
    Managing Director
    Location:
    Great Southern Land
    Heya,

    This is caused by a human malfunction :rolleyes: when designing the RTP variations for the game.

    The reels are in a fixed order, with random stop locations called for and then displayed. Following that display a win evaluation runs through and sees whether there have been scatter or line wins (as KK says it's not the other way round)

    There is 1 variation of the 3 (though I can't disclose which) that has the following reel strip order:

    Pos.: Reel 2
    1 Pear
    2 Balloons
    3 Ticket
    4 "Frenzy"
    ... (skipped listing the middle section)
    37 Balloons
    38 Plum
    39 Banana
    40 Pear

    As you can see Position 1 and Position 40 (the start and end of the reel strip order) both have a Pear

    This means that if the random stop position result for reel 2 is position 40 it will display:

    Position 39 = Banana
    Position 40 = Pear
    Position 1 = Pear

    As per what you see in the screenshot.

    Typically (unless it's meant to be a grouped symbol) the symbols at the top and bottom of the reel will be different.

    Woooof
     
    3 people like this.
  12. Sep 2, 2009
  13. silcnlayc

    silcnlayc Just one more spin pleez! CAG MM PABnonaccred PABaccred

    Occupation:
    IT Director of Operations
    Location:
    Left Hungary
    Please expand on this with more information wise. All the other stuff you wrote is fine and dandy but what does this statement ACTUALLY mean? That each casino operator can change the reels at THEIR discretion???

    .
     
  14. Sep 2, 2009
  15. KasinoKing

    KasinoKing WebMeister & Slotaholic.. CAG MM PABnonaccred webmeister

    Occupation:
    House-Husband and Casino Advisor
    Location:
    Bexhill on sea, England
    No, I don't think so. The full sentence was:
    i.e. I think he means the person designing the slot at RTG failed to notice he put the same symbol at the start & end of the reel strip.
    I can imagine that's quite an easy mistake to make!

    As I said before, to me it is extremely likely that this is on the LOWEST payout version, since we know they lower the RTP by adding symbols.
    Therefore, players can tell which casinos have a higher return setting by looking for Fruit Frenzy without the side-by-side Pears... at least, until they make the inevitable update... :mad:

    Disclaimer: I'm guessing & could be wrong. Also, we know different slots can have different RTP's within the same casino.

    KK
     
    1 person likes this.
  16. Sep 2, 2009
  17. hippo925

    hippo925 Dormant account

    Occupation:
    medical field
    Location:
    so cal
    Always appreciate your posts!

    Out of curiousity, do rtg slots generate a random number for each reel like the wizard of odds slot, or just one number? The reason i ask is that if there is just one random number generated for all five reels, doesn't that mean that the random number is just giving out a result, say 0.00 or .50 or $1200, etc?
    (this would of course correspond to a visual display of the reel layouts that equal the won amount..... and this would still be random enough for all intensive purposes.)

    And as i understand it, you are saying that the software randomly displays the reels, THEN a "win evaluation" looks for scatter or line wins... but whenever there is a glitch on these slots (not specifically rtg), we are always told that the "correct" result was given even though the reels were wrong / glitch / whatever. In other words, if the result is evaluated "after" the reel results, how can these glitches even happen?

    Another example, if the software has a glitch where a wild is removed and we are told that the correct results were still given (wild symbol was absent but another symbol was shown that gave the same win.) wouldn't that mean the RNG just picks the result and THEN the matching reel layout is shown?

    Thanks again Dogboy!! You always make it so much easier to understand these things and your openness is soooo refreshing. :notworthy

    P.S. I agree with KK... since it's a layout that doesn't seem too common, i'm guessing it's the lowest RTP. (but isn't the pear one of the higher paying symbols?)Would be interesting to see when it changes!
     
    1 person likes this.
  18. Sep 2, 2009
  19. vinylweatherman

    vinylweatherman You type well loads CAG MM

    Occupation:
    STILL At Leisure
    Location:
    United Kingdom
    There IS a way to check, and that is to compare this reel with that found in a casino who has publically declared it uses the mid range 95%, and has never "tweaked" the games downwards.
    The second way is to analyze this variant, and calculate the RTP. WE now know it is the variant with repeated pears on stop 40 and 1, which appear together. It is a case of getting the strips for all 5 reels on this variant, and having a go at working out the RTP.
    It is not easy, but if we have a variant known to be the 95% one, we can use information from this to work out how much RTP comes from the bonus game, and how much from the base game.

    It is highly disappointing that players are FORBIDDEN TO KNOW the RTP of the machine they are playing when this is coupled with the fact that casinos can "tweak" this RTP WITHOUT BREATHING A WORD to customers. The only reason this got noticed was because of the double pear.

    This has never been highlighted before, yet was a "human error" in the DESIGN stage. I can speculate that this is the first time casinos have used these variants, and we are seeing the first proof that it is a whole lot easier to have slots changed to a new RTP variant than we were lead to believe in earlier replies from operators etc.

    Given the economic climate, it is likely that the change has been from the 95% "standard" version to the approx 93% lower RTP variant. This ties in with loads of posts from players convinced that they just don't seem to get the "playtime" for their money from RTG slots that they used to.

    There is no absolute proof, but do we, as players, need this. RTG casinos refuse for the most part to disclose the RTP of their games, we know this RTP can be changed, and now we have evidence that it HAS been changed at casinos where we see Fruit Frenzy displaying this double pear on stop 40/01. I doubt casinos would go to all this trouble to change the RTP on just this one slot, given how we have been told it takes 6 months, and has to be requested, and agreed, through RTG - I believe it fair to assume that any casino that has done this has requested changes to a package of slots, and without evidence to the contrary, I would assume the changes to be to a lower RTP.
    We, as players, should bear this in mind when depositing, and assessing the value of a bonus (20x WR is a far worse deal if the RTP has been lowered).

    MGS casinos in general refuse to disclose the RTP of the games, and those that DO publish only give a range, such as 95% - 96%. What we DO know though, is that once released, the RTP never changes again, and if MGS casinos want to put the squeeze on us, they have to do it OPENLY, perhaps by increasing the WR on bonuses, banning certain games, or offering less "free" money altogether.

    A few years ago saw the dissection of many MGS slots, and extraction of their RTP. This task could at least be done ONCE per slot, and gave answers that were appropriate for all MGS casinos. With RTG, we have to look at THREE variants for each slot, and calculate the RTP three times.
    There are some RTG slots simple enough to calculate exact mathematical RTP values for using the "slot simulator". This might catch out those casinos likely to be using a lower RTP than the "standard", and players can judge for themselves whether these casinos have lowered the RTP on more complicated slots too.

    As in the case of the double pear, various RTP variants might carry such "markers" that make them easy to tell apart, so it should not be necessary to completely gather the reelstrips from each RTP casino to tell which RTP variant is being used.
     
    3 people like this.
  20. Sep 2, 2009
  21. KasinoKing

    KasinoKing WebMeister & Slotaholic.. CAG MM PABnonaccred webmeister

    Occupation:
    House-Husband and Casino Advisor
    Location:
    Bexhill on sea, England
    I have the ability to get the reel strips from RTG slots, but not the motivation...
    I wish I did have a good reason to do it, but frankly I have better ways of spending a couple of hours.

    KK
     
  22. Sep 2, 2009
  23. Rusty

    Rusty Banned User - repetitive flaming

    Occupation:
    IT
    Location:
    Manchester UK
    Good reason = fair gaming.
    There ya go, you have one now, get on with it. :p
     
    1 person likes this.
  24. Sep 2, 2009
  25. miranda_x

    miranda_x I'd kill for a Whopper

    Occupation:
    mother
    Location:
    belgium
    i would like to see a strip that points out the position of the symbols on the reels on all slots , it gives you more trust in the slots imo .
     
  26. Sep 2, 2009
  27. vinylweatherman

    vinylweatherman You type well loads CAG MM

    Occupation:
    STILL At Leisure
    Location:
    United Kingdom
    Neither do I, however if I had some spare time I might be tempted. The problem is that the process for RTG is not as simple as it was for MGS (and MGS was not really that simple till someone found out the short cut using the Flash casino).

    This was done for many MGS slots in response to a string of moans about the games being tighter. It turned out that, in general, MGS slots were set to about 95% give or take 1%. HOWEVER, there were some startling revelations.
    One was that the old video slots had to be WEIGHTED, otherwise under truly random "stops" selection they would pay well over 100%, which clearly they don't. 5 Reel Drive was identified as a weighted video slot, since if all reel positions had equal chance it would pay over 200%:eek:
    The other, less surprising, was that the Mega Moolah slot paid a mere 88% in the base game, with the rest going towards the 4 progressive jackpots. This is an unusually high contribution to a progressive pool, which with RTG is between 1% and 2% of stake for their Random Jackpots.

    RTG have a whole lot more to hide, and don't seem keen to give it up. IF we could know which RTG casinos ran which RTP versions, we could make an INFORMED choice as to where to play, and secondly, the transparency would ensure that RTG operators would be keener to use the mid range, or even high RTP versions, rather than the lower one.
    All we know now is that some RTG casinos have indeed altered the RTP on their slot games. Those where the FRuit Frenzy game shows the double pear are those casinos that have changed the RTP from "standard". As yet, we can not be sure which way the change went, but I expect 99% of players believe it was LOWER, and now that we have "busted" them (look for the double pear), they may have to rethink their strategy, which may have relied on players believing the games were the same as always.
     
    2 people like this.
  28. Sep 3, 2009
  29. DogBoy001

    DogBoy001 Senior Member webmeister

    Occupation:
    Managing Director
    Location:
    Great Southern Land
    Heya,

    The result that is displayed by each reel is independently determined when the spin is called for.
    On a 5 reel slot, this means that 5 random numbers are called for to determine the stop locations of the 5 reels.

    Each stop position on any given reel is as likely to hit as any other (there is no weighting of probability)

    A win evaluation then determines whether a win has occurred

    The only display "glitch" that I can recall was a recent one relates to Texan Tycoon, and as explained, this was a result of the game calling for multiple multipliers when win lines ran through the same wild symbol, but only the last multiplier called for was being displayed.
    The display should have either cycled through the multiple wild values on the symbol animation, or called for and displayed a single multiplier (as designed, and as subsequently rectified)

    Wild removed? On RTG software? Somehow I think not, and it would certainly stick in my mind if that had ever occurred.

    It won't be changing...it'll be a constant reminder to us to check and ensure that symbol stop 1 and the final symbol stop on any given reel aren't composed of the same symbol (unless it's a grouped symbol game)

    Woooof
     
    1 person likes this.
  30. Sep 3, 2009
  31. Rusty

    Rusty Banned User - repetitive flaming

    Occupation:
    IT
    Location:
    Manchester UK
    If you believe MG slots have a set RTP and are completely random without probability tables or weighting you are completely deluding yourself I'm afraid.

    Essentially all the software works in a very similar same way.

    MG Casinos just tend to be more trustworthy than RTG or Rival so obviously MG are more fussy about who gets their hands on their software which is why they are still the best provider.
     
  32. Sep 3, 2009
  33. Rusty

    Rusty Banned User - repetitive flaming

    Occupation:
    IT
    Location:
    Manchester UK
    Each stop position on any given reel is as likely to hit as any other (there is no weighting of probability)

    Is it pantomime season already?

    Oh yes there is! :D
     
  34. Sep 3, 2009
  35. hippo925

    hippo925 Dormant account

    Occupation:
    medical field
    Location:
    so cal
    dogboy.... thanks again!! some of the examples i used were NOT RTG. In fact, i usually don't hear of too many glitches with RTG outside of the initial Fruit Frenzy bonus thing a while back.

    Appreciate your explanations (so easy to understand when you explain them.) Definitely makes me feel like the slots are more random, though like Rusty i always have questions regarding "randomness."

    Now if only you would tell us how to differentiate between the different paybacks......:D (It would save vinyl and kasinoking a lot of time.....;))
     
    2 people like this.
  36. Sep 3, 2009
  37. DogBoy001

    DogBoy001 Senior Member webmeister

    Occupation:
    Managing Director
    Location:
    Great Southern Land
    No worries!

    RTP changes are done exactly as they are for the majority of video B&M casino slots, sometimes via adjustments to the reel strips, sometimes by chages to feature probability schedules* and sometimes via a combination of both.

    Dynamic or weighted systems - which despite Rusty's disbelief ;) is not how the RTG system functions - are another kettle of fish altogether.

    * By feature probability schedule I refer to, for example, pick features where a pick may reveal one of (n) prizes or award (x) free games. Typically this is a weighted probability schedule.
    An example is Warlock's Spell, where it's readily apparent that there is a different chance of triggering 8 free games versus 100 free games. This is obviously necessary to balance RTP.
    An alternate example would be Loose Caboose, where there is a % chance that the train will continue over row 2, and if so a chance that it moves to row 3. This is coupled with probability schedules relating to extra wilds being revealed, numbers of free games revealed, multipliers...complicated.

    The trouble with trying to calculate RTP strictly on reel strips in a random system is if there is a feature component that uses a probability schedule.
    It's possible to calculate base game return, but then the feature component becomes an educated guess.

    It should be noted that while probability schedules may be used in determining the value of pick prizes or the number of free games awarded, the free games function exactly as per the base game reel spins, in that 5 random numbers are used to determine stops on an unweighted basis on the 5 reels, with subsequent win evaluation.
    It's just that usually the feature reel strips are improved over the base game, typically by having a lesser symbol on a given stop location replaced with a wild symbol.

    Woooof
     
    1 person likes this.
  38. Sep 3, 2009
  39. silcnlayc

    silcnlayc Just one more spin pleez! CAG MM PABnonaccred PABaccred

    Occupation:
    IT Director of Operations
    Location:
    Left Hungary
    Caesars last reel

    At Jackpot Capital ( a favorite of mine) I noticed in the last few months on Caesars, that the last reel bonus symbol trigger went from appearing going past the window during the spin almost every spin to every other spin.....unlike now, this symbol appears going by every 3-6 spin revolutions.

    By this I mean, I would spin and see the symbol almost every time to every other time I spun. Now ( in the last few months) I have to spin almost 4-6 times before this symbol would flash going past the window.

    I find this most disturbing trend with RTG's...this subtle change that is done..

    .
     

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