SLOT PLAYERS REVOLT!

Rusty

Banned User - repetitive flaming
Joined
Jul 23, 2006
Location
Manchester UK
Why are slots players treated like 2nd class gamblers?

I mean if your passion is VP then you are playing against about a 2% house edge and the same goes for roulette and some other games so why do slots player have to play against a much higher house edge?
It would be very easy for software providers/Casinos to make their slots 97or 98% by simply adjusting the paytables or making the bonus rounds a litle more generous.

The slots need not be changed,So why not?
Is it just discrimination? Is it simply greed?
Can any Casino operator give me and every other slot player a valid reason why returns should be lower than on other games?

After all how much do you wager in a Year on slots (wager not deposit)?
If it is just $20,000 then just a 5% improvement on return would mean that you got an extra $1000 worth of play!
Think about it, $1000 worth of extra chances to hit a big win or just simply sitting in your account.

When the UK licensed Casinos appear in September they will have to clearly state the percentage payout of each game and I urge all slot players to boycott any slots that are less than 96%.
Send an email to your Casino stating your intentions and why and believe me if enough players take a stand we will get better payout percentages.

There is still time for a leading Casino to take the lead and turn a negative into a possitive. Simply adjust their slot payout % and advertise that their slots are the highest paying on the internet 96%+

If not then slot players you know what to do. Spread the word!
 

soflat

Dormant Account
Joined
Oct 3, 2005
Location
Florida
I think it is just determined by the market. Slot players are willing to pay the high house edge, so the casinos are happy to set them that way.
 

aka23

Dormant account
Joined
Jun 11, 2006
Location
Planet Earth
Why are slots players treated like 2nd class gamblers?

I mean if your passion is VP then you are playing against about a 2% house edge and the same goes for roulette and some other games so why do slots player have to play against a much higher house edge?
Online VP usually has a house edge <2% with optimal strategy. If you look around, you can even find a few VP games with a player advantage. In contrast, American Roulette has a house edge of 5.26%, as high as typical online slots.

As another player pointed out, the simple reason why slots have a higher house edge than most casinos games is that casinos can have a higher house edge. When much of the payout is in rare big wins, small changes in house edge are not as noticeable. A state lottery is an extreme example. Furthermore, slots are the only class of casino game where players cannot easily compute the house edge. If a Video Poker payout is reduced, many players will know before they start the game. If a slot payout is reduced, players will not notice the difference until wagering a good amount, and some players will never notice the change. Another reason for the higher house edge is having no strategy decisions. The overall payout for VP is often significantly less than the house edge payout since many players do not use optimal strategy. Casinos can afford to reduce the house edge more, if players who use non-optimal strategy pull down the overall payout. However, with slots there are rarely strategy decisions that have a large impact on payout.

When the UK licensed Casinos appear in September they will have to clearly state the percentage payout of each game and I urge all slot players to boycott any slots that are less than 96%.
Send an email to your Casino stating your intentions and why and believe me if enough players take a stand we will get better payout percentages.

There is still time for a leading Casino to take the lead and turn a negative into a possitive. Simply adjust their slot payout % and advertise that their slots are the highest paying on the internet 96%+
Most of the larger SWs offer specific slots that payout >96%. Typical payout ranges from 94-97%. Wagerworks and Rival list the payout of their slots, so you can determine which payout >96%. I recall one game that pays out >98%. I wish other softwares would take this approach and list the expected payout for all of their games.
 
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saladfingers

Meister Member
Joined
Feb 1, 2007
Location
UK
Great idea and totally valid points - but would any one Microgaming casino be able to do this on its own? As I understand it from reading this forum, individual MG casinos can't adjust slot odds - they're centrally controlled. Is that right?
 

vinylweatherman

You type well loads
Joined
Oct 14, 2004
Location
United Kingdom
Great idea and totally valid points - but would any one Microgaming casino be able to do this on its own? As I understand it from reading this forum, individual MG casinos can't adjust slot odds - they're centrally controlled. Is that right?

All individual MG slot games have the same long term payout wherever played. MG CAN give exact expected figures for each slot, they choose not to release the information. They will have calculated these figures before releasing each game. It is possible to calculate the payout through Zoozie's MG slot simulator, pretty exactly where only free spins and multipliers are involved. Slots with pick bonuses are more difficult due to not knowing the probabilities of specific pick awards.

RTG certainly CAN compete in this way, as operators can tweak the games themselves. Recent postings have suggested that this "tweaking" can go as far as "cheating".
 

gfkostas

Ex-Bonus Whore
Joined
Sep 3, 2003
Location
London
When the UK licensed Casinos appear in September they will have to clearly state the percentage payout of each game and I urge all slot players to boycott any slots that are less than 96%.

Talking about land based casinos i never seen a slot in the uk that has a 90%+ pay out. They all say: This slots payout is a minimum of 80%. They never state the maximum though. It would seem that most gamblers are so dumb that even if you give them a single deck blackjack with the best rules, still they will continue losing their money. Online of course the case is different.....
 

Slotster!

I predict a riot.
Joined
Oct 17, 2004
Location
Location, Location!
Talking about land based casinos i never seen a slot in the uk that has a 90%+ pay out.

The new 500 five reelers are 50p = 90% 1 = 92% 2 = 94%.

I've done reasonably well off these, and they play very much like their Vegas/online equivalents. We'll see a shift towards these over here I think, as finallly our industry has woken up and realised that people will stake (and lose!) more, if the potential to one day win big is there.

They're random too as far as the reels are concerned, but the features can still be exploited by the likes of Vinyl and the 'emptying' crew!

Gone are the days of the 2p nudger! :D
 

vinylweatherman

You type well loads
Joined
Oct 14, 2004
Location
United Kingdom
The new 500 five reelers are 50p = 90% 1 = 92% 2 = 94%.

I've done reasonably well off these, and they play very much like their Vegas/online equivalents. We'll see a shift towards these over here I think, as finallly our industry has woken up and realised that people will stake (and lose!) more, if the potential to one day win big is there.

They're random too as far as the reels are concerned, but the features can still be exploited by the likes of Vinyl and the 'emptying' crew!

Gone are the days of the 2p nudger! :D

They're not actually, most use an internal "bingo" game to determine the result of each wager, and the reel positions are simply made up to display the win as though from a multi-line slot.
A few have been exploited, but through software bugs rather than the usual Fruit Machine methods. They DO seem to exhibit streak behaviour, but it is all in our minds and we could not possibly profit from following trends in such random games could we;) Online games ALSO exhibit streaky behaviour, and I am sure that a sequence of spins is enough to gauge the "mood" of the likes of Thunderstruck & Munchkins - just look at how scatters fall, it's easy (not 100% reliable though, sometimes a cycle fails, just lile a monsoon, this is when it goes those long 500+ spins without a bonus, a cycle or two has been skipped).

There are still some "2p nudgers" about, and they can still be emptied:D
 

Rusty

Banned User - repetitive flaming
Joined
Jul 23, 2006
Location
Manchester UK
Here is an email I sent to William Hill but have yet to receive a reply.

I have noticed that the video slots payout is the lowest of your games but do you have the payout % of each individual slot?
Also is each game result independent from the last and truely random?
Finally I have noticed that WH have applied for a remote Casino license will this affect payout % of your slots come September and will you be keeping the same software provider?
Many thanks


As far as I know there are thus far no Casinos using the MG software platform that have applied for a UK remote Casino license.

William Hill and Littlewoods two respected companies that have applied for remote Casino licenses both use Wager logic.

Neither of these companies currently give individual payout percentages for their slots but William Hill report their anual payout on slots at 91%

This is a well respected company that openly provides audit and payout information and yet slot payout is still only 91% now contrast this approach with MG who will not give out percentage payout information on their slots and have no Casinos that have applied for UK licenses yet we are expected to believe their slots payout is higher (around 95%).

Certainly in my long experience with MG they are nearer 85%

Zoozies slot analysis can not be faulted but it is assumed that the games are completely random and fair and that the paytables remain the same and that the reels are not changed in any way.
Non of this can be independently verified by a regulatory body.
The situation is even worse with RTG.

The fact is that slots that have a bonus feature that is activated by a scatter win and has high potential rewards surely are NOT truely random in the way they operate.
This is because the payout percentage would alter quite significantly with the number of lines played and playing just one line would yield optimum payout percentages.
This is not true of a slot that just offers free spins where they payout % remains unaltered by the amount of lines played.

This leads me to the conclusion that bonus games are manipulated in the amount that they payout and/or in the frequency they are activated or some slots may actualy be more profitable played at 1 line (Zoozie do the maths).
Certainly the first of these conclusions is unsavoury the second is unpalatable (unpalatable truth?) and the third leaves a strange after taste.

I am ready to accept my thinking or facts might be flawed in some way here and welcome thoughts and comments particular from those inside the industry.

So what does all this mean for slots players?

It means that unless RTG,MG and other major software providers find a company that is willing to use their platform in a fully regulated and licensed market (UK remote Casino license,september) there will always be legitimate questions about the fairness of their games.
For companies such as wager logic (assuming WH and Ladbrokes keep them) the opposite will be true but being legitimised in this way will not be enough if slot payout % remain so low.

Slots players you can have it all;

A properly regulated Casino using legitimate software with higher payout percentages.
All you have to do is find your voice and vote with your money.

Appologies for such a long post.
 

gfkostas

Ex-Bonus Whore
Joined
Sep 3, 2003
Location
London
They're random too as far as the reels are concerned, but the features can still be exploited by the likes of Vinyl and the 'emptying' crew!

I have seen with my eyes people exploiting those old fashion 3 reel slots. When they win they simply press the 3 nudges buttons continuously and the machine gets stuck and pays again.
 

KasinoKing

WebMeister & Slotaholic..
webmeister
PABnonaccred
CAG
MM
Joined
Aug 25, 2004
Location
Bexhill on sea, England
Gone are the days of the 2p nudger! :D
Having met you at ICE this year I am gobsmacked that you even know what a 2p nudger is! :eek2:

I would have thought you were still in nappies while I was wasting all my pocket money on those dared things which got me into gambling in the first place!!! :rolleyes:

Some very good points Rusty, but personally because slots are high variance I don't think you can compare them to low edge games like Blackjack etc.
Obviously the higher the return the better, but at the end of the day it's your overall slots strategy which will determine your success rate over the long term.

Be lucky... then STOP! ;)

KK
 

Rusty

Banned User - repetitive flaming
Joined
Jul 23, 2006
Location
Manchester UK
I now know why I did not get a reply to my email to William Hill.

I have noticed that the video slots payout is the lowest of your games but do you have the payout % of each individual slot?
Also is each game result independent from the last and truely random?
Finally I have noticed that WH have applied for a remote Casino license will this affect payout % of your slots come September and will you be keeping the same software provider?
Many thanks


Say nothing and tell no lies :oops: see my ripped off again thread
 

vinylweatherman

You type well loads
Joined
Oct 14, 2004
Location
United Kingdom
I have seen with my eyes people exploiting those old fashion 3 reel slots. When they win they simply press the 3 nudges buttons continuously and the machine gets stuck and pays again.

That is just one of the "hidden" features, being the hidden hold on a win.

Around 1990, with the launch of 20p play, 777 Heaven was launched. if you got the Jackpot, and then the "flash", or "hidden hold", you set the machine on to the streak mode where you would win some 30 or more in only a few minutes. Many games had this streak mode, and they were sometimes predictable, or could be chased down provided the machine had taken enough since the last time. Cloud 999 was the most predictable of all, but later versions had a different "chip" and never streaked properly.
These good times lasted till 1996, but then the skill drained away, and endless cloned crap got released with only a few gems. I miss those days up & down the motorway streaking all the Andy Capps, Pay Rises, Rollercoasters etc. Fortunately, I found online casinos. (For my wallet, this might have been UNfortunately).
I now feel the urge for another motorway trip, but I don't want to miss all the promos offered online. it will have to be the camper van & wireless laptop to get the best of both. I just need a CHEAP way of getting online from anywhere I may be at the time.
 

rob3786

Dormant account
Joined
Mar 22, 2007
Location
london
When I play at online casinos slots are the only games I play, I love them! I play online blackjack sometimes and a couple of the new games such as deal or no deal but thats about it, slots all the way for me!
 

Rusty

Banned User - repetitive flaming
Joined
Jul 23, 2006
Location
Manchester UK
Having met you at ICE this year I am gobsmacked that you even know what a 2p nudger is! :eek2:

I would have thought you were still in nappies while I was wasting all my pocket money on those dared things which got me into gambling in the first place!!! :rolleyes:

Some very good points Rusty, but personally because slots are high variance I don't think you can compare them to low edge games like Blackjack etc.
Obviously the higher the return the better, but at the end of the day it's your overall slots strategy which will determine your success rate over the long term.

Be lucky... then STOP! ;)

KK

Thanks KK and I agree you can not compare the 2 games as far as variance goes but I think it is valid to compare them for overall payout %
Certainly stratergy can help and I enjoyed your site but IMHO no amount of stratergy can overcome a house edge, just lessen its impact.

As for being lucky I will have to content myself with the thought that if the games are fair and I am being slaughtered all the time then someone else must be winning :oops:
Now let me reread that slot stratergy of yours again ;)
 

gfkostas

Ex-Bonus Whore
Joined
Sep 3, 2003
Location
London
That is just one of the "hidden" features, being the hidden hold on a win.

Around 1990, with the launch of 20p play, 777 Heaven was launched. if you got the Jackpot, and then the "flash", or "hidden hold", you set the machine on to the streak mode where you would win some 30 or more in only a few minutes. Many games had this streak mode, and they were sometimes predictable, or could be chased down provided the machine had taken enough since the last time. Cloud 999 was the most predictable of all, but later versions had a different "chip" and never streaked properly.
These good times lasted till 1996, but then the skill drained away, and endless cloned crap got released with only a few gems. I miss those days up & down the motorway streaking all the Andy Capps, Pay Rises, Rollercoasters etc. Fortunately, I found online casinos. (For my wallet, this might have been UNfortunately).
I now feel the urge for another motorway trip, but I don't want to miss all the promos offered online. it will have to be the camper van & wireless laptop to get the best of both. I just need a CHEAP way of getting online from anywhere I may be at the time.

The slots am referring to may still be alive today as the last time i saw them around was only 2 years ago.
 

Rusty

Banned User - repetitive flaming
Joined
Jul 23, 2006
Location
Manchester UK
My question;

I have noticed that the video slots payout is the lowest of your games but do you have the payout % of each individual slot?
Also is each game result independent from the last and truely random?
Finally I have noticed that WH have applied for a remote Casino license will this affect payout % of your slots come September and will you be keeping the same software provider?
Many thanks





William Hills answer;

Hi David,

Thank you for your e-mail .

Our Games have been developed by one of the world's leading game-design companies and offers the widest limits and highest payouts on the internet. Games pay out up to 98%.

Whatever the customer bets on has absolutely no influence whatsoever on the result the random number generator arrives at. The systems are completely independent and are extensively tested and fully certified.

As all draws are played by many consecutive players it would be impossible for our system to control the game to our advantage.

I hope that this explains your query.

With regards,

Noma

Customer Services
William Hill plc


I hope that this explains your query.

Erm nope.

Would you trust someone who can not give you straight answers to straight questions?
 

Zoozie

Ueber Meister
PABnonaccred
CAG
Joined
Dec 1, 2005
Location
Denmark
Would you trust someone who can not give you straight answers to straight questions?

I appreciate your mission, trying to gather online slot payout% and make slot players revolt. But historically casinos have been very tight with this information. So far I only really believe the certified payout% reports. However I know that some 3-reel slots have higher payout% (if they have high minimum bet limit), so video slots will have average below this published result for all slots.. I know 32Red has given customers information about 1 specific video slot expected payout% and I believe them. The probably know the data from MG, but I am not sure they are supposed to share them...The payout was within the expected 95-96% for MG 5-reel slots.
MG does know these data, but unfortunately they are not published. I can understand this since they slots will have slightly different payout%. But I would be happy for a general statement that all 5-reel slots have payout 95%+. For RTG the situation is hopeless since the managers can change the payout%. (so you really never know what slot you are playing).
But the good news is that the newer software providers like Rival and Wagerworks does publish each slots expected payout% and I do trust them.

Overall I am not satisfied that the expected payout% for slots is near 95% and in many cases even less. So you have my full support. Also because slots are relative low variance compared to other games and with often very limited maximum win. Many slots can not give *1000 bet size etc. This is opposed to Keno where you actually CAN with a lot, which in my eye compensates some for the huge house edge. But when playing slots you are 'doomed' extremely fast with no hope of ever getting even again. (unless you play progressives)

Also I have the impression that slots are often not as aware of the math/house edge as BJ are etc. Try to get BJ play a 95% BJ game etc.(Though some tourists in Vegas plays 6/5 BJ - and it is not even in the bikini dealer pool!) So since slot players are willing to pay that much, the casinos continue to offer the tight slots. Also the casinos need to get their funds somewhere and as a VP player mostly I am happy it is the slot players that 'pays the bill'.

I like slots, but I would never deposit and play slots unless I get a 50% bonus at least. Even with my low rolling (0.25$-0.5$/spin) it is way way to expensive though it is fun to play without a bonus.

Zoozie
 

Rusty

Banned User - repetitive flaming
Joined
Jul 23, 2006
Location
Manchester UK
Thanks for the support, it is going to be an uphill struggle no doubt.
One of my big concerns is when an accross the board figure is given for percentage payout such as William Hill 91% slots.
How much of this figure is made up from the one in a billion progressive jackpot wins?
Do only Jackpot slots contribute towards these jackpots or is a percentege syphened off from other games?
Does one slot have a 75% payout and another 95% and does this change?

There has been some excellent discussion on the nature of addiction on these boards recently and perhaps others better informed than I can say whether slots are statiscally the most addictive games and/or how much the revenue generated from slots contributes to the overall profit of a Casino.
My guess is that the figure for both would be high.

I intend to write to the gambling commission and put forward an argument that slots should have a minimum payout of 95% and that jackpot slots should state what % of stake contributes towards the jackpot.
Also slots play much quicker than other games so generally the turnover is quicker although I concede that slots can be played at lower stakes.

I intend to back this argument further by stating that, as it stands, the big hitters who are going to come under Gambling commission regulation are either connected by being part of the same group or using the same software provider.

This means that the same forces at work in a free market that help give the consumer a good deal are not at work here.
It could be argued that the equivelant of price fixing is likely to take place in what is supposed to be a tightly regulated industry (come September)

This issue will quickly put to the test the power, independence and even the integrity of the gambling commission.
They will find themselves being pulled in three directions.
The Goverment wants its tax.
The Casinos want their profits.
The consumers want fair games and good service.

They should lean towards the consumers but we will see.

I would greatly appreciate any comments,advice relevant facts and figures etc before I write to the commission.
 

vinylweatherman

You type well loads
Joined
Oct 14, 2004
Location
United Kingdom
:lolup::lolup::lolup:

A tubleweed just blew past.
I have written to the Gambling commission despite the apathy :oops:

They should at least reply.
They replied to me when I pointed out a "rogue" casino trying to give the impression they operated from the UK, perhaps trading on the confusion brought about by the new rules where, from September, this will be possible.
According to them, if the SERVERS are elsewhere, they cannot be touched, even if they are attempting to give the impression of being run from the UK.
It's a common dodge, with many "UK based" casinos having all the support and management based in the UK, but the servers offshore.

The Gambling Commission did say that a specific seal would be awarded, that could ONLY be used by fully regulated operations, not those with a UK office address but servers elsewhere.
I am just waiting for the first "rogue" to misappropriate THAT seal, just like they do with the eCogra one.

The topic of slots payouts can be addressed by referring to the regulationary environment at Lasseters, where they have to state the exact theoretical payout of each slot game. Further, they have to state how the prizes awarded by the bonus feature are calculated, and this is often by having the bonus triggers overlay an actual reel win, and the bonus round pays this same win, but in a more entertaining manner, such as the "Bunny Hunt".
I am not sure how the change to Orbis has affected this.

Regulation here MAY require the casino to disclose the stats for each game, and then it is a case of using the Freedom of Information act to extract it from the commission. If the reply is "No - Commercially sensitive", then we can prove the casinos have something to hide, and with the help of Zoozie and a video camera, we can find out what. Many slots have already been done where free spins is the only bonus.
 

Rusty

Banned User - repetitive flaming
Joined
Jul 23, 2006
Location
Manchester UK
Thanks VWM I will post their reply here.
They have been quite responsive in past communications so as you say they will reply no doubt.
Just played william hill slots again and they are pathetic.
The marvel ones seem the best of the bunch but the rest I get under 60% returns.
You can go 20 or 30 spins and hit nothing and when you do hit the paytable is a joke and the free spins come up once in 500 spins if you are very lucky.
For all my moaning at RTG and MG (MG were fine but last few Weeks went suddenly downhill) they payout better than WH or Littlewoods who have both applied for licenses :eek:
Hoh hum can't wait to see thae payout % on some of their slots or if they increase them when regulated.
 

Rusty

Banned User - repetitive flaming
Joined
Jul 23, 2006
Location
Manchester UK
Reply from The gambling commission;

From 1st September (when the Gambling Act 2005 comes into force), remote casinos licensed by the Gambling Commission will have to ensure that their gambling equipment conforms to the Licence Conditions and Codes of Practice (LCCP) and the Commission's technical standards. These specify that game rules and return percentages including any jackpots must be displayed to the player. Slots do tend to have a lower return than casino style games however it is up to the player to decide which game suits them best. The speed of play issue has been addressed and features such as auto play have been limited. Additionally, the customer will be able to set financial limits to control how much is deposited or gambled.


At this time it appears they do not feel it necessary to regulate the minimum payout percentage of remote Casino slots.
This is a worry as it is currently a horrendously low 80% for B&M Casino slots and a ludicrous 70% for AWP slots.
I think it is a mistake to let market forces dictate what sort of deal the consumer gets in a new and underpopulated market and the commission could of at least set a guideline figure and made this figure known.
This would of avoided over-regulation but still of brought a little pressure to bear on the operators and informed any new customers as to what they should expect from the product.
 
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