Slot Paytables & Reels, reverse engineering

BabylonBear

Newbie member
Joined
Jan 14, 2019
Location
London
I am aware that some people have managed to get hold of some of the paytables or reel data for some popular slots like Starburst.

I'm really really sorry if this has been asked before, but I have spent the last hour searching and haven't found it:

Where can one get ahold of information like this? Presumable it was obtained by someone reconstructing the reels by hand? Or reverse engineering the code somehow?
 

dunover

Unofficial T&C's Editor
Staff member
webmeister
PABnonaccred
PABnononaccred
CAG
mm3
Joined
May 22, 2012
Location
the bus shelter, opposite GCHQ Benhall
I am aware that some people have managed to get hold of some of the paytables or reel data for some popular slots like Starburst.

I'm really really sorry if this has been asked before, but I have spent the last hour searching and haven't found it:

Where can one get ahold of information like this? Presumable it was obtained by someone reconstructing the reels by hand? Or reverse engineering the code somehow?
Why would you want it?
 

Reelsoffun

When it comes to gambling, timing is everything.
Joined
Feb 24, 2018
Location
UK
I am aware that some people have managed to get hold of some of the paytables or reel data for some popular slots like Starburst.

I'm really really sorry if this has been asked before, but I have spent the last hour searching and haven't found it:

Where can one get ahold of information like this? Presumable it was obtained by someone reconstructing the reels by hand? Or reverse engineering the code somehow?


You need more than just the reel strips to reverse a game. Esp one with random side features etc. I did my own version of Donuts because i love that game but had to guess some of the math for it to work for me as i linked it to my progressives lol
 

goatwack

Get dunked, big buns!
Joined
Aug 29, 2012
Location
Londonia
Dunno if it was reverse whatever but I managed to hack into the source code for Thunderstruck II a few years back, I'll have to tell you more about it with screenshots one day :rolleyes: :D
That's how it always starts doesn't it.

Hacking TSII one day, The Pentagon the next
 

Nate

Paleo Meister (means really, really old)
webmeister
CAG
Joined
Feb 14, 2007
Location
Cyberspace
When I first started playing, i recall wondering if I changed the code in the MG download client if I would be able to manipulate the outcome.

I remember finding the highest paying symbols picture and then replacing the lowest paying symbols with the same gif / jpg in the MG directory.

It actually worked.

Needless to say, a screen full of the top symbols paid 0 :lolup:

Nate
 

lotusch

A little mix of Dutch and Irish
Joined
Jun 3, 2013
Location
Dún Dealgan
When I first started playing, i recall wondering if I changed the code in the MG download client if I would be able to manipulate the outcome.

I remember finding the highest paying symbols picture and then replacing the lowest paying symbols with the same gif / jpg in the MG directory.

It actually worked.

Needless to say, a screen full of the top symbols paid 0 :lolup:

Nate


It probably DID change the reels layout, replacing any symbols you wanted but as we all know that is just eye candy.
Didn't affect the outcome the server sent. :D

It was easier to manipulate slots in The Netherlands in the 90's b&m and I only managed once to fool a Dutch online casino where I was able to "buy" credits with my mobile phone..With a certain operator I did get the credits but never got charged for any text message I did sent to purchase credits. Golden Days!!:D:D
After 3 months we sold it to a gambling syndicate for some sexy money and another 2 weeks after the trick did not work anymore, I guess this syndicate exploited it way too much.
 

dunover

Unofficial T&C's Editor
Staff member
webmeister
PABnonaccred
PABnononaccred
CAG
mm3
Joined
May 22, 2012
Location
the bus shelter, opposite GCHQ Benhall
Dunno if it was reverse whatever but I managed to hack into the source code for Thunderstruck II a few years back, I'll have to tell you more about it with screenshots one day :rolleyes: :D


Oh no, here it comes...….
 

BabylonBear

Newbie member
Joined
Jan 14, 2019
Location
London
Why would you want it?
To accurately simulate spins, in order to determine accurate EV for bonus offers, in order to maximize profit.

Currently I have data from 30,000 spins from a couple of popular slots, collected via software I wrote. (code to play game + code to log winnings)

But it's not enough. I think I need around 1 million spins until the samples converge.. While I could get that in a few days/days of leaving my program running, it may be simpler and more accurate to use the reel data and be able to actually simulate my own spins.

You need more than just the reel strips to reverse a game. Esp one with random side features etc. I did my own version of Donuts because i love that game but had to guess some of the math for it to work for me as i linked it to my progressives lol
This is true. Some games don't have a bonus round though (e.g. Starburst). Also, some have a simple bonus setup (e.g. 10 free spins with x5 winnings).
 

dunover

Unofficial T&C's Editor
Staff member
webmeister
PABnonaccred
PABnononaccred
CAG
mm3
Joined
May 22, 2012
Location
the bus shelter, opposite GCHQ Benhall
To accurately simulate spins, in order to determine accurate EV for bonus offers, in order to maximize profit.

Currently I have data from 30,000 spins from a couple of popular slots, collected via software I wrote. (code to play game + code to log winnings)

But it's not enough. I think I need around 1 million spins until the samples converge.. While I could get that in a few days/days of leaving my program running, it may be simpler and more accurate to use the reel data and be able to actually simulate my own spins.


This is true. Some games don't have a bonus round though (e.g. Starburst). Also, some have a simple bonus setup (e.g. 10 free spins with x5 winnings).

thePOGG already does that for his bonus offers, at least some of them. You don't actually need the reel maps, although it would make it easier.
 

BabylonBear

Newbie member
Joined
Jan 14, 2019
Location
London
thePOGG already does that for his bonus offers, at least some of them. You don't actually need the reel maps, although it would make it easier.
Those are decent, but I achieve much better returns using my algorithms. e.g. for the bet365 offer I can get +60 EV with 68% bust rate, ThePogg gives +55 with 89% bust rate.

Where did ThePogg get their payout data? Is it accurate?
 

brianmon

Ueber Meister
webby
mm4
Joined
May 22, 2013
Location
Cumbria
I am aware that some people have managed to get hold of some of the paytables or reel data for some popular slots like Starburst.

I'm really really sorry if this has been asked before, but I have spent the last hour searching and haven't found it:

Where can one get ahold of information like this? Presumable it was obtained by someone reconstructing the reels by hand? Or reverse engineering the code somehow?
You'd have to assume there aren't any virtual reels involved. Quite often, the reel strips you see on screen, aren't necessarily exactly what's going on inside the servers.
Games like PnG's 3x5 slots, will probably all use virtual reel strips, as it's the easiest way to change the RTP - One set of reel strips at the client end, and a different set of reel strips for each of the RTP setting on the server

Maybe @trancemonkey can confirm/explain more?
 

BabylonBear

Newbie member
Joined
Jan 14, 2019
Location
London
You'd have to assume there aren't any virtual reels involved. Quite often, the reel strips you see on screen, aren't necessarily exactly what's going on inside the servers.
Games like PnG's 3x5 slots, will probably all use virtual reel strips, as it's the easiest way to change the RTP - One set of reel strips at the client end, and a different set of reel strips for each of the RTP setting on the server

Maybe @trancemonkey can confirm/explain more?

Maybe it's virtual. Maybe the reels are generated on the fly.

But by far the easiest way to implement it would be to just have a reel.

I'm going based on something I saw somewhere, someone said he managed to get the reel data for a few popular slots.. I am just asking around if anyone knows where this data is, if it exists..
 

brianmon

Ueber Meister
webby
mm4
Joined
May 22, 2013
Location
Cumbria
Maybe it's virtual. Maybe the reels are generated on the fly.

But by far the easiest way to implement it would be to just have a reel.

I'm going based on something I saw somewhere, someone said he managed to get the reel data for a few popular slots.. I am just asking around if anyone knows where this data is, if it exists..
Yeah, if you can get hold of the actual data. I just meant you probably wouldn't get very accurate data from stripping down the reels from the front end.
Considering how protective slot producers are of their intellectual property. they'd hardly put it all on the client side of things, where it could be so easily copied by their competition.

And yeah, the reels normally have a fixed layout. But mapped to much larger virtual reels in the coding
 

trancemonkey

Ueber Meister
Joined
Mar 29, 2013
Location
United Kingdom
You'd have to assume there aren't any virtual reels involved. Quite often, the reel strips you see on screen, aren't necessarily exactly what's going on inside the servers.
Games like PnG's 3x5 slots, will probably all use virtual reel strips, as it's the easiest way to change the RTP - One set of reel strips at the client end, and a different set of reel strips for each of the RTP setting on the server

Maybe @trancemonkey can confirm/explain more?

Once upon a time the data was sent to the client by multiple games providers so if you sniffed the packets you could get the reel bands. Problem is that this only worked on games with one set of reels for the base game and one for he feature.

Nowadays I would be amazed if companies did that.
 

slotter999

Dormant account
Joined
Oct 22, 2013
Location
UK
Maybe it's virtual. Maybe the reels are generated on the fly.

But by far the easiest way to implement it would be to just have a reel.

I'm going based on something I saw somewhere, someone said he managed to get the reel data for a few popular slots.. I am just asking around if anyone knows where this data is, if it exists..

There are a number of providers that have client side definitions of the reelsets - BTG, WMS and nextgen are ones I know of from the top of head.

When someone claims to have reel sets I think this is what meant.

Obviously client side is not necessarily a true reflection of the actual game server side but when you take a look.....I think you would conclude that if they weren't really real reel strips.....it would be a huge effort someone had undertaken just to try to obfuscate something when there are much more easier methods. And if course - the reelsets are just one of the variables you need to consider for a slot. Only the provider will know for certain how the RNG is used to determine results from those reelsets.

If we consider a slot machine to be a black box then the only way we can infer what it's doing is through observability. That means you need to put spins through it......and by that I mean a ridiculous amount (1mio won't cut it).

A poster called @torors released a JavaScript/node.js tool which would do exactly that for BTG slots. Look through his posts for details / inspiration.

Good luck.
 

BabylonBear

Newbie member
Joined
Jan 14, 2019
Location
London
There are a number of providers that have client side definitions of the reelsets - BTG, WMS and nextgen are ones I know of from the top of head.

When someone claims to have reel sets I think this is what meant.

Obviously client side is not necessarily a true reflection of the actual game server side but when you take a look.....I think you would conclude that if they weren't really real reel strips.....it would be a huge effort someone had undertaken just to try to obfuscate something when there are much more easier methods. And if course - the reelsets are just one of the variables you need to consider for a slot. Only the provider will know for certain how the RNG is used to determine results from those reelsets.

If we consider a slot machine to be a black box then the only way we can infer what it's doing is through observability. That means you need to put spins through it......and by that I mean a ridiculous amount (1mio won't cut it).

A poster called @torors released a JavaScript/node.js tool which would do exactly that for BTG slots. Look through his posts for details / inspiration.

Good luck.
Thanks, I appreciate that. I'm totally with you, even if someone has the reel sets it doesn't mean you have reverse engineered the game.. There could be so many things going on, e.g. the reels might be different in bonus games, they might have different weights for the probabilities of landing on a certain spot, etc.. I just heard someone say they managed to get ahold of this and wanted to know if anyone here knows about it.

I think a milion is a decent target. It's not perfect, but for the sake of simulating a bonus offer, the variance of the 100-1000 spins you will do over the course of the bonus wagering will me so much higher than the variance from a million samples that it won't matter. Also if some feature/win doesn't hit in a million spins I'll safely assume it won't hit in my 1000 spins.
 

trancemonkey

Ueber Meister
Joined
Mar 29, 2013
Location
United Kingdom
Thanks, I appreciate that. I'm totally with you, even if someone has the reel sets it doesn't mean you have reverse engineered the game.. There could be so many things going on, e.g. the reels might be different in bonus games, they might have different weights for the probabilities of landing on a certain spot, etc.. I just heard someone say they managed to get ahold of this and wanted to know if anyone here knows about it.

I think a milion is a decent target. It's not perfect, but for the sake of simulating a bonus offer, the variance of the 100-1000 spins you will do over the course of the bonus wagering will me so much higher than the variance from a million samples that it won't matter. Also if some feature/win doesn't hit in a million spins I'll safely assume it won't hit in my 1000 spins.

Well, you can assume it's around a 1 in a 1000 chance that a 1 in a million event will happen in your 1000 spins :)
 
Top