Slot Mechanics (Was: Fruit Frenzy Game glitch or frenzy?)

[DogBoy001]

Welcome to the Forum DogBoy !! You definitely sound like you know what the hell you are talking about...

My only hindrance to convincing me that all these online slots are totally random though is the fact that everyone on this forum has not won as well as we did before the US Market was cut off in Oct. 06....before that we won and we won often and big amounts too, and the "Winner Screenshots Thread" on here is more than ample proof of that with all the Winning Screenshots in large amounts and a hell of a lot of them from MG casinos...

But since Oct. 06 the frequency and dollar amount of Winning Screenshots in that thread has more than dramatically decreased since the US market was practically cut off...So my question is how do you explain that phenomenon ?

And I seriously doubt that I am the only one on here that has noticed this.

I also think it would be interesting to hear Eliot Jacobson's take and thoughts on all of the posts in this thread regarding randomness too...

Again, look forward to seeing more posts from you DogBoy !!

Thanks one and all,

I haven't dealt with Microgaming for some years, so I can't really comment of whether they are truly random or not (we have had relations with MG when working for a different company, but we had founded our enterprise by the time they got around to the integration stage).

RTG is the only current system that we can really vouch for as regards the system's functions and adherence to random results.

Da Dog

 

[vinylweatherman]

Thanks for the welcome, glad I can contribute!

I can't divulge exact game info to the level of giving out the physical layout of the reel strips...that would invite duplication by other system providers, but I can hopefully provide more general insights into a few aspects of the games and system.

Da Dog

If this was enough to allow other system providers to duplicate the game, then not giving out the reelstrips will not stop them. They can be derived with a little effort, just as fruit machine players used to do before we had "autonudge" that always gave us the best possible win.

This community has already determined the reel strips on many of the Microgaming slots, and the process with RTG would be similar.

Once one has the reelstrips, it is possible to calculate an accurate RTP by two methods, probabilities and simulation, perhaps in Zoozie's slot simulator.

This was used to determine that the RTP for Microgaming's "Thunderstruck" was 95%, which is what was expected. This same methodology is what then revealed that the OLD Microgaming videoslots, such as 5 reel drive, were weighted. Probability and simulation assuming no weighting put RTP WELL in excess of 100%, so the conclusion was that the game used weighted stops.

RTG reelstrips are much longer than the 30-40 used by MG it seems.

If other system providers were interested in RTG reelstrips, they would have done this long ago, but would of course have used different symbols, but the same paytable and distribution.

 

[DogBoy001]

If this was enough to allow other system providers to duplicate the game, then not giving out the reelstrips will not stop them. They can be derived with a little effort, just as fruit machine players used to do before we had "autonudge" that always gave us the best possible win.

This community has already determined the reel strips on many of the Microgaming slots, and the process with RTG would be similar.

Items like reel strip layout are like any other trade secret...yep, it's likely that anyone with enough patience and enough know-how is going to be able to work it out in the end.
What we'd never do, however, is hand something like this on a silver platter to less reputable system providers (and I'm not talking about Micro or Crypto or the other majors here, but fly-by-night operations that would dearly love to be handed sets of highly effective mathematical models).

And there's many games out there with the majors as well that, shall we say, closely reflect very successful games that were brought by land-based manufacturers like Aristocrat.

Imitation is the sincerest form of flattery...there's no need to reinvent the wheel...what other cliches can I throw in here?

RTG reelstrips are much longer than the 30-40 used by MG it seems.

In many cases at least one reel strip on a given game may well fall into this category, however this will be the same for any provider, including MG.
For our games the strips vary from anything as low as 25 or so to over a hundred in some instances (e.g.: On some reel 5 symbol trigger required events, that reel 5 symbol might be pretty darned rare).

All up, it's possible to re-construct the reel strips from observation...it might just take a long time

Da Dog

 

[KasinoKing]

All up, it's possible to re-construct the reel strips from observation...it might just take a long time

Tell me about it!
I'm doing Cashapillar at the moment - between 80 to 94 symbols on every reel!

Has to be done.

 

[LaHutti]

Tell me about it!
I'm doing Cashapillar at the moment - between 80 to 94 symbols on every reel!

Has to be done.

Hope you'll get a few good hits in the process
That's one nasty biatch

 

[vinylweatherman]

Items like reel strip layout are like any other trade secret...yep, it's likely that anyone with enough patience and enough know-how is going to be able to work it out in the end.
What we'd never do, however, is hand something like this on a silver platter to less reputable system providers (and I'm not talking about Micro or Crypto or the other majors here, but fly-by-night operations that would dearly love to be handed sets of highly effective mathematical models).

And there's many games out there with the majors as well that, shall we say, closely reflect very successful games that were brought by land-based manufacturers like Aristocrat.

Imitation is the sincerest form of flattery...there's no need to reinvent the wheel...what other cliches can I throw in here?



In many cases at least one reel strip on a given game may well fall into this category, however this will be the same for any provider, including MG.
For our games the strips vary from anything as low as 25 or so to over a hundred in some instances (e.g.: On some reel 5 symbol trigger required events, that reel 5 symbol might be pretty darned rare).

All up, it's possible to re-construct the reel strips from observation...it might just take a long time

Da Dog

This is what makes players feel the game is "rigged" to deliberately block a feature. They see that the 5th reel triggering symbol "has been removed" when watching the animation, but then they see it again on the following spin animation, and often have not gained the first trigger symbol to match it.

The main reason this community wanted reel strips was to calculate the RTP for the games, because of all the discussions about the "off switch", and belief that RTP was not the 95% we were being lead to believe, but somewhat lower.

RTG is an interesting case, because operators can choose the RTP of their games, and this value can vary between one casino and another.

By gathering reel strips and doing the calculation, the reputable RTG casinos will (hopefully) return the 95% they claim, and the rogues will be exposed as using the lower 93% value, and if they are found to have even less than 93% (supposed to be impossible), then RTG will suffer a loss of integrity for allowing these licencees to get away with it.

 

[DogBoy001]

This is what makes players feel the game is "rigged" to deliberately block a feature. They see that the 5th reel triggering symbol "has been removed" when watching the animation, but then they see it again on the following spin animation, and often have not gained the first trigger symbol to match it.

Heya,

In the end it's purely random, symbols aren't removed on the fly, the reel strip is in a fixed order and if the randomly determined stop location yields the appropriate trigger symbol that's what will appear.

It should be remembered that whatever mechanism is used to trigger, the end result is that the trigger rates are typically going to be between 1 in 100 spins on average and 1 in 140 spins, and having a long reel strip isn't going to change the fact that most game features fall within this range.

As an example: One of the land-based games I did (in fact my very first) had a substitute on reels 1-4 (Crab) and a different sub on reel 5 (Lobster). The player got 15 free games for each Crab that appeared in conjunction with a Lobster on reel 5 (so 15 to 60 free games could be won).
Because so many substitutes could pop up on reels 1-4 the 5th reel had to be very long in order to make the trigger event of a Crab coinciding with a Lobster suitably rare.
The 5th reel strip was over 140 long, but the overall trigger rate was 1 in 128.

Da Dog

 

[vinylweatherman]

Microgaming figures

Lol! I'll drink to that

Da Dog

Microgaming publish monthly audited payout figures for broad categories. Overall, slots, tables, and poker. These are per casino, but we know that MG software uses the same RTP for each casino. We know that RTG is different, in that individual operators can set higher or lower RTP values for their games. For card games, they change the paytable, but with slots they change the characteristics of the game, probably by symbol substitution. On top of this, they do not publish the returns as do Microgaming, so that a particular RTG casino could have set the slots to 93%, and players could be thinking they have 95% RTP, and there is no way of finding out. This leads to all sorts of "conspiracy theories" when particular RTG casinos seem far tighter than others, especially when many players report this over a period of time. Since we know that RTP can be varied by operators, it is reasonable to conclude that one explanation is that the "tight" RTG casino is running at 93%, and a benchmark "normal" RTG casino is running at 95%, or even 97.5%

Worse still, is the fact that RTG casinos do not allow players access to their play history, and support are often reluctant to provide it even on request, and this also feeds the conspiracy theories.

Given the vacuum of "official" information, all it would take is for someone to show that RTG games are not as players have been lead to believe, and the reputation of RTG will go lower than it already is.

The reputation of RTG has suffered most by the rogue casinos operating out of Costa Rica, who have a long reputation of ripping off players with RTG just looking the other way. The player dispute process, although now up and running, has seemed to be of a very low priority, with a near 2 year gap between the pulling of the old version, and implementation of the new.

Meanwhile, the notorious Virtual casino group continues to thrive in Costa Rica, preying mainly on the novice players who are unaware of their reputation.

The sudden closure of the Crystal Palace group, and the announcement by RTG that funds unclaimed will simply become "forefeit" has done their reputation no favours. This group has now been rebranded, and is running under a new company, but no-one seems to be able to confirm who is actually running them, and the current presumption is that Virtual have gained control of these casinos, and are using them to "hide" from the notoriety of their main brands.

RTG had good reason to leave the USA, but Costa Rica hardly inspires confidence. Microgaming, on the other hand, are based in the IOM, and have to adhere to the IOM regulatory standards, which are a great deal better than those in Costa Rica.

If RTG want to ditch their association with rogueness in the online industry, they need to get rid of licencees that continue to rip off players, and only retain those that behave. In time, this will give RTG a far better reputation, and the eventual aim would be to not have a single RTG powered casino in Bryan's rogue pit.

 

[Rusty]

Sorry, but this is another one I'm adding to the urban slot myth category
The anticipation reel spin does not ping the server again and ask for a stop position at the time...especially a new stop position! Boy, if slots worked by only spinning one reel at a time, then waiting for a server result for the next reel it'd take 10 seconds just for one game to occur.

Animated reel strip "resets" occur in all video games.
Again, nothing sinister, and I'll draw on land-based video as an example (though the net is exactly the same):
When a video reel strip starts to spin it has a known start position (let's say, symbol stop 17 is the start (middle vertical) position, on say a 45 long reel strip).
The RNG has said: "Stop on position 10 this spin"
What will happen is that the start position will determine what you see when the reels take off and start spinning.
At some point during that spin the game knows that it has to finish on position 10. Since we have a fixed length of time on each spin, at some mid point it stops showing the reels spinning from their start position and jumps to show the reels leading up to the position it will need to stop on.

It's almost impossible to notice, unless of course there's an extended anticipation spin going on.
Other reasons it could become noticible may be a lack of seemless transition between start and stop position strips (so in a seemless environment it would seem to be a natural spin, but if there's even a fraction of a delay it can look like a symbol arbitrarily changes).

Either way, however, there's nothing rigged about it. It's just trying to display the result the RNG has determined.

The server only needs to be pinged once for the random numbers that correspond to reel stop position, the numbers can be dynamically weighted server side, manipulated call it what you will server side and all in a fraction of a second(If that were the case).
Perhaps it is just poor programing because if I as an amateur can design slots that have reels that are never reset and always take off from their last position, spin fluidly and complete in under Two seconds or longer for game-play if required then I do not understand why a large company can not fathom out how to do it.
It is not rocket science.

I admit this seems like a stupidly and clumsy way to cheat but I will remain suspicious until someone can give me a reasonable argument as to why the animations sometimes keep resetting and go extremely fast and this is always accompanied by a bad losing streak then suddenly they slow down stop resetting and the slot plays normally again.

It has absolutely nothing to do with connection speed.
I am sure any RTG slots player not affiliated or connected to the company or its casinos will have experienced the same but probably never analyzed it.

I'm not 100% sure on the rationale for requesting batches from the servers, but that's a coding item that falls beyond our area of expertise.

Well since it is not necessary to do this and much more natural to treat as individual spins I am bound to assume it is because the free spin rounds are predetermined. Being that, as yet, I am unconvinced the games work entirely as advertised.


May I also ask you what is the rationale behind having different sized reel strips?
Is it just that it gives you more freedom mathematically?

Thanks

 

[Rusty]

Very interesting thread and thank you DogBoy001. Please become a regular contributor to this forum. Your insight is huge (you even have VWM thanking you ). Plus you are debunking the "slot game remembers where you left off and how much you are up or down" conspiracies with real facts. There are some who will never accept this as reality but their arguments to the contrary will be met with yawns (moreso than in the past ) which is a GOOD THING.
Again welcome and i very much look forward to heading more of your posts.

What makes you 100% certain that all games are fair in a basically unregulated industry?
What is your evidence that online slots are completely fair and random and "this is reality"

You are right about one thing Dogboys contributions are most welcome.

 

[ugaboga]

Hi all,

My first post, though I must say I've read through the forums for some time now.

I think it's fitting that I reply, given that my company designs and supplies numerous games to both the land-based and net gaming industries.

My way of background, I was a strategy game designer who fell into gaming (gambling) games after many years whiling away the hours in a multitude of Australian pubs, clubs and casinos.
I joined IGT and ended up designing over a hundred slot games there, before joining a company founded by by former IGT director to design and develop games with a wider industry focus (by that read "internet", to accompany traditional development)
I have, throughout the years, designed games for most of the majors, both land-based and net.

Now to the case in point:
KasinoKing is correct, mathematically it the same whether it is 1 line or 25 lines, and in this case there is no supplementary weghting system required (indeed unless the software is absolute crap I can't think of a case in which it would be required).
In its simplest form:
While the chance to trigger at max line is 25 times the chance on 1 line, the bet is proportional.
In both instances the play in free games is at 25 lines.

Let's say RTP per free game is 5000%, since calculations would be based on single line play, but 25 are now being used (so base game RTP in this instance is 25 that of the typical base RTP, assuming no reel strip or other adjustments are occurring).
The chance to trigger on 1 line may be, for example, 1 in 2500.

So in the case of a trigger on 1 line: 1/2500*5000% = relative return per game = 2% (of total RTP)
In the case of trigger on 25 lines: 25/2500*5000%/25 = 2% of total RTP (you're dividing by 25 as the bet is now 25 times higher)

If there were on average, say, 12 games, feature RTP would be 12*2% = 24% (out of say a 95% game total RTP)

Hope that makes sense

Da Dog

Good to see another Aussie here and especially one who is involved in slots development. I assume you're only involved in online slots now?

Also, do you still play the pokies at the pub etc? If so, talk about ridiculously low payout percentages compared to online play! Another point is how low the paylines are at the physical pokies compared to online.....

But I still enjoy aristocrat games like "5 dragons", "indian dreaming", "King/queen of the nile" etc more then online variants... I guess it's the atmosphere that makes the difference.

 

[Simmo!]

You are right about one thing Dogboys contributions are most welcome.

Yes indeed. And can I suggest we keep off the subject of whether or not RTG is a good provider in this thread please. That's not Dogboy's area - it's game design...let's stick to that and spare him the contentious stuff please.

And please - this is an excellent thread, don't derail it on other issues.

 

[Zoozie]

Welcome DogBoy!

It seems you have some real valuable information and I can see no flaws in your arguments, so they are probably correct. Besides they are all identical to what this forum already have figured out, except for the information about the 'true video-slot' non-weighted RTG reels, which we still missed better information to confirm. I gave you a substantial reputation boost as my appreciation

First of all I must say I have not been very active on this forum for a while, but that is another story. Secondly I have really much to add to this discussion so I will not use quotes since this will take up too much space.

To answer the original post about the Fruit Frenzy glitch, then it indeed seems like a glitch. I have had 5-symbols twice several times and always received the correct number of free spins. Also I think I remember hitting 3*5 symbols once which also gave me the correct number of shots with the canon and resulting number of free spins.

I agree with KasinoKing and DogBoy that playing any number of lines on Fruit Frenzy result in the same RTP under the assumption that the reels are non-weighted of course. To clarify the term "Non-weighted" means each position on a reel has same probability and of course same symbol are allowed multiple times on each reel. I believe this is what vinylweatherman was referring to.

To sum up the information you provided about RTG slots you basically claim that they are fair. We known this to be true for MG, IGT , Rival, 3Dice and Intercasino slots, but for several good reason I had my doubts about RTG slots. The first MG 5-reel video slots are a shameful exception though. They are weighted!


In short with fair I mean the video slots have the following properties:


1) The 5 reels are 'fixed' ie. does not change except maybe during bonus games. Multiply symbols can occur several times on each reel. So the slots has 5 virtual reels where for each you can write down the symbol sequences.

2) Reels are independant and non-weighted.

3) In case of random jackpot, the probability for hitting it must be propertional to total bet-size.

4) The casino operator can only switch between a few predetermined number of RTP configurations for each slot. (I case of MG, only one configuration for each slot)



Here is the my previous knowledge about these four rules for RTG slots.

1) The slots seems to be true to this. However I remember the spinning animation-blur showed symbols that was not on that reel, but MG also did this mistake. (the same spinning animation was used for all reels)

2) This was my real concern. The notoriously long reel #5 on RTG slots made it hard to tell.

3) Boy I got into trouble with one! But I am sincerely happy for you answer, since it means I was right all the time
In short there was a discussion about the randomness of the "random jackpot" for RTG slots. INetBet forum-representative joined the discussion and claimed hitting the random jackpot did not depend on the bet-size, but had an equal chance on each spins. This did not make sense (payout favor small bets) to me and I proved mathematically that it could not be true. INetBet was then helpful and provided me with a sheet of ~60 RJ hits and corresponding bet-size and player name. Also InetBet wrote to RTG and asked this question, but RTG answered the same as INetBet did(ie. bet-size did not matter). However statistical analysis of the seemly short data gave a clear answer: The bet-size DID matter. I was not allowed to publish the jackpot data for INetBet with my results. This made sense as I was able tell a lot of InetBet players/bet-size under the assumption of jackpot depended on bet-size.

Anyway here is one of the threads about it if you want the full read:
RTG random jackpot thread

If the RTG answer was correct, it would mean the video slots could not be
fair video slots due to math not adding up. If RTG was lying there was no reason to believe much else that come of them. RTG already had very little credibility due to not interfering with the RTG rogue casinos.

4) RTG casinos rarely published payout reports, so we only assumed they had something to hide. (But I am sure they do, most RTG have the slots on lowest setting.)

Besides there once was a curious but most devastating Fruit Frenzy bug that existed for weeks. No matter what - you could never hit the target in the bonus game. It missed 100%. So the number of freespins was always a minimum. Since payout% contribution of the freespin bonus games for typical slots are in the range 20-40%, this would mean Fruit Frenzy was having a really low payout% (RTP) during that bug. Was this a configuration issue? Because then some slots could be set to a really low payout%. (85% range)

When you could tell a bonus game was coming up before reel #5 stopped, this also added to the suspicion. But you gave a good explanation for this.

As an interesting fact I can confirm RTG can change the payout% in realtime, however the players are booted, but they can log in right after and they will be downloading the new version of the game. I tried this with 9/6 JoB videopoker that changed into 8/5 when I was still clearing a welcome bonus.

I was not aware that the weird maximum payout (40000*line bet on RTG) or maximum number of free-spins on IGT (Cleopatra II, Wolf Run etc.) was due to a legal issue about maximum payout. And you are right in most cases that this is really negligible in terms of payout%(RTP). But in case of "Rain Dance" I think the number of lines you play makes substantial difference in terms of payout%, maybe as much as 1%. This is because that IF you hit the 5-scatters then there is a really good chance you are hitting the cap. So if you are playing less lines the total win/bet-size will be higher due to the *40000 line bet cap.

"Items like reel strip layout are like any other trade secret." This surprises me. It was not that hard to crack the MG slots (done using two different methods that gave the same result). Besides it is very easy to design a new slot and configure payout% to certain levels. And as you did with RTG, simply making reel#5 very long makes small adjustments easier. Besides with my slot-analyzer anyone can make a new slot (standard free spin slot).

I think this was enough for now. Keep the information flowing DogBoy!

 

[DogBoy001]

Microgaming publish monthly audited payout figures for broad categories. Overall, slots, tables, and poker. These are per casino, but we know that MG software uses the same RTP for each casino. We know that RTG is different, in that individual operators can set higher or lower RTP values for their games. For card games, they change the paytable, but with slots they change the characteristics of the game, probably by symbol substitution. On top of this, they do not publish the returns as do Microgaming, so that a particular RTG casino could have set the slots to 93%, and players could be thinking they have 95% RTP, and there is no way of finding out. This leads to all sorts of "conspiracy theories" when particular RTG casinos seem far tighter than others, especially when many players report this over a period of time. Since we know that RTP can be varied by operators, it is reasonable to conclude that one explanation is that the "tight" RTG casino is running at 93%, and a benchmark "normal" RTG casino is running at 95%, or even 97.5%

Worse still, is the fact that RTG casinos do not allow players access to their play history, and support are often reluctant to provide it even on request, and this also feeds the conspiracy theories.

Given the vacuum of "official" information, all it would take is for someone to show that RTG games are not as players have been lead to believe, and the reputation of RTG will go lower than it already is.

The reputation of RTG has suffered most by the rogue casinos operating out of Costa Rica, who have a long reputation of ripping off players with RTG just looking the other way. The player dispute process, although now up and running, has seemed to be of a very low priority, with a near 2 year gap between the pulling of the old version, and implementation of the new.

Meanwhile, the notorious Virtual casino group continues to thrive in Costa Rica, preying mainly on the novice players who are unaware of their reputation.

The sudden closure of the Crystal Palace group, and the announcement by RTG that funds unclaimed will simply become "forefeit" has done their reputation no favours. This group has now been rebranded, and is running under a new company, but no-one seems to be able to confirm who is actually running them, and the current presumption is that Virtual have gained control of these casinos, and are using them to "hide" from the notoriety of their main brands.

RTG had good reason to leave the USA, but Costa Rica hardly inspires confidence. Microgaming, on the other hand, are based in the IOM, and have to adhere to the IOM regulatory standards, which are a great deal better than those in Costa Rica.

If RTG want to ditch their association with rogueness in the online industry, they need to get rid of licencees that continue to rip off players, and only retain those that behave. In time, this will give RTG a far better reputation, and the eventual aim would be to not have a single RTG powered casino in Bryan's rogue pit.

Heya,

Unfortunately I'm only here to comment on the way the system and the games work, rather than the operators and commercials

Da Dog

 

[DogBoy001]

Well since it is not necessary to do this and much more natural to treat as individual spins I am bound to assume it is because the free spin rounds are predetermined. Being that, as yet, I am unconvinced the games work entirely as advertised.

Heya,

Merely because the most efficient (and seemingly best) way to develop a system from scratch is to have the free games get called down one at a time doesn't necessarily mean that that is how a system (in this case RTG's) was produced.

You have to remember that the system architecture was constructed long before our association, and it was obviously set up in a manner other than what you describe.

That does not mean that it is not random...which it is.

May I also ask you what is the rationale behind having different sized reel strips?
Is it just that it gives you more freedom mathematically?

Thanks

Absolutely.

I can't recall the last time I designed a game with exactly even reel strips, or the same reel strip distribution from reel to reel.
There's no need to do so, and it only hamstrings the designer.

Da Dog

 

[Rusty]

Yes indeed. And can I suggest we keep off the subject of whether or not RTG is a good provider in this thread please. That's not Dogboy's area - it's game design...let's stick to that and spare him the contentious stuff please.

And please - this is an excellent thread, don't derail it on other issues.

I thought it was a pertinent point in light of Dogboys previous comments;

I've made RTG aware that I was posting to the forums here, since I felt there was a need to clear up some miscomprehensions.
The other reason is that we deal with a lot of land-based markets and land-based groups...our reputation is on the line too, so it's important to realise that a fair system is highly important to RTG

I am sure Dogboy can make his own decision as to whether it warrants a response.

If the last part of that statement is relevant to your recent editing activities, then yes I agree.

 

[Rusty]

Well Dogboy, I guess that leaves us at an impasse.
I have really enjoyed discussing this with you and thank you for your level and informed approach.
Obviously there are still issues that I feel remain unresolved as to the integrity of online gaming software and until they are I will remain suspicious that they have payouts as high 97% and are truly random and unweighted but we will just be going around in circles if I continue to site them here.

Thanks again for the inside technical info

PS
Did you make any contribution to Achilles my favorite RTG game?

 

[DogBoy001]

Good to see another Aussie here and especially one who is involved in slots development. I assume you're only involved in online slots now?

Heya, or rather G'day

We still supply to the land-based guys, predominantly to Bally Technologies until recently.
They had 30 games from us, and sold in 22 countries.
Another one of the majors is, shall we say, imminent

We also deal with a group selling into the South African and South American markets, and Voyager Gaming (a Queensland operation) that has a downloadable intranet system.
These guys are deployed with Tattersals through the Talarius operation they took over in the UK. They're also in the process of trialing at the moment in the South African and Queensland markets.

I'll post a link to our site late this week, as it's currently at the end of a re-vamp...the old one that's up there is, shall we say, old

Also, do you still play the pokies at the pub etc? If so, talk about ridiculously low payout percentages compared to online play! Another point is how low the paylines are at the physical pokies compared to online.....

But I still enjoy aristocrat games like "5 dragons", "indian dreaming", "King/queen of the nile" etc more then online variants... I guess it's the atmosphere that makes the difference.

Yup, I still play quite a bit in the clubs, and sometimes at the casino, despite the crappy payouts ...mainly as a social thing and mainly with my folks, who are equally convinced that the operators rig things on an ongoing basis, despite my claims to the contrary

Re the number of paylines? If so:
Most land-based manufacturers are transitioning from 20 lines to 25 for the low denomination market.
You do get some movement towards 30 from a few, but more lines doesn't necessarily translate to better game play anyway.
Works well with a large symbol-driven jackpot, but they've vanished from the Australian scene.

Ainsworth's attempts at a 4x5 (4 row/5 reel) have almost exclusively failed, because they simply tried to translate a straight free game feature with more lines onto the new layout. Once you move beyond 3x5 players are going to struggle with payline layout, so you need to give players something fairly obvious to look out for and chase.
Grouping top symbols and/or wilds is the way to go.
Aristocrats 4x5 50 Lions and 100 Lions games work well, largely due to this grouping the top symbol and wilds on the reels, and an obvious trigger symbol on 3 reels (MG would no doubt have drawn on this success when designing Cashapillar...nothing wrong with that mind you, it's always good to draw on a successful model).

Back to the normal layouts: 25 lines is a good level in my opinion, especially as the maths for a 20 line game translate fairly well to 25 lines.
Be interesting to hear what other players prefer a non-symbol-driven jackpot game's max line structure to be.

Da Dog

 

[Simmo!]

Aristocrats 4x5 50 Lions and 100 Lions games work well, largely due to this grouping the top symbol and wilds on the reels, and an obvious trigger symbol on 3 reels (MG would no doubt have drawn on this success when designing Cashapillar...nothing wrong with that mind you, it's always good to draw on a successful model).

And IGT on Wolf Run of course

Talking of which, when a port of a land-based slot like WR is taken online, is the % adjusted up by changing the reel combinations based on what you said earlier? So in actual fact, it isn't execatly the same game. Also, with the land based ones, how do they alter the payouts? Being video slos, can something be changed on the chip to change the reel symbols or something, or are they a fixed % ?

 

[ugaboga]

Heya, or rather G'day

We still supply to the land-based guys, predominantly to Bally Technologies until recently.
They had 30 games from us, and sold in 22 countries.
Another one of the majors is, shall we say, imminent

We also deal with a group selling into the South African and South American markets, and Voyager Gaming (a Queensland operation) that has a downloadable intranet system.
These guys are deployed with Tattersals through the Talarius operation they took over in the UK. They're also in the process of trialing at the moment in the South African and Queensland markets.

I'll post a link to our site late this week, as it's currently at the end of a re-vamp...the old one that's up there is, shall we say, old



Yup, I still play quite a bit in the clubs, and sometimes at the casino, despite the crappy payouts ...mainly as a social thing and mainly with my folks, who are equally convinced that the operators rig things on an ongoing basis, despite my claims to the contrary

Re the number of paylines? If so:
Most land-based manufacturers are transitioning from 20 lines to 25 for the low denomination market.
You do get some movement towards 30 from a few, but more lines doesn't necessarily translate to better game play anyway.
Works well with a large symbol-driven jackpot, but they've vanished from the Australian scene.

Ainsworth's attempts at a 4x5 (4 row/5 reel) have almost exclusively failed, because they simply tried to translate a straight free game feature with more lines onto the new layout. Once you move beyond 3x5 players are going to struggle with payline layout, so you need to give players something fairly obvious to look out for and chase.
Grouping top symbols and/or wilds is the way to go.
Aristocrats 4x5 50 Lions and 100 Lions games work well, largely due to this grouping the top symbol and wilds on the reels, and an obvious trigger symbol on 3 reels (MG would no doubt have drawn on this success when designing Cashapillar...nothing wrong with that mind you, it's always good to draw on a successful model).

Back to the normal layouts: 25 lines is a good level in my opinion, especially as the maths for a 20 line game translate fairly well to 25 lines.
Be interesting to hear what other players prefer a non-symbol-driven jackpot game's max line structure to be.

Da Dog

Thank you for your input. Yeah I'm quite happy with 20 - 25 line games, which as you said is where a majority of land based slots are (in Australia).

What I actually meant to say is that the top paylines pay so little in comparision to online casinos. It can be up to 50% less of what a similar payline at the same denomination would pay in an online casino (RTG for example). I've converted alot of physical slot players to online because of this; but as you said, the social aspect of playing at a club or casino is an integral part of the atmosphere.

I've generally found star city to have the highest pay percentage (seeing that you're in Sydney), so I do most of my physical slotting over there. Pubs and clubs have really reduced their payout percentages in my opinion (increase in gaming tax, economic downturn etc).

By the way; you mentioned that you worked for IGT, did you play any part in the development of "Cleopatra"? Another great slot

 

[DogBoy001]

I agree with KasinoKing and DogBoy that playing any number of lines on Fruit Frenzy result in the same RTP under the assumption that the reels are non-weighted of course. To clarify the term "Non-weighted" means each position on a reel has same probability and of course same symbol are allowed multiple times on each reel. I believe this is what vinylweatherman was referring to.

Heya, and thanks!

Yup, while the reel strips vary in length and symbol distribution, the layout of each reel is set, and each stop position has the same probability of hitting.

In short with fair I mean the video slots have the following properties:


1) The 5 reels are 'fixed' ie. does not change except maybe during bonus games. Multiply symbols can occur several times on each reel. So the slots has 5 virtual reels where for each you can write down the symbol sequences.

2) Reels are independant and non-weighted.

3) In case of random jackpot, the probability for hitting it must be propertional to total bet-size.

4) The casino operator can only switch between a few predetermined number of RTP configurations for each slot. (I case of MG, only one configuration for each slot)



Here is the my previous knowledge about these four rules for RTG slots.

1) The slots seems to be true to this. However I remember the spinning animation-blur showed symbols that was not on that reel, but MG also did this mistake. (the same spinning animation was used for all reels)

Correct.
One item to note though is that there may be several instances on a reel where the same visible result is going to occur.
e.g.: Suppose one section of the layout had:

K
Q
Goat
9
K

It may be that, for example,

Goat
9
K

occurs at some other position on the reels in addition to the instance above.
So if the stop position is that particular 9 in either case, the display will be Goat 9 K
The result is that the same visible combination will occur but will actually not be the same stop position on the reels. For a player trying to analyse the layout they will not know that this is a repeated layout.
Hmm, but then again, with enough analysis you'd realise that it's occurring more frequently than most other combinations and could theorise that it is a combination layout that is repeated at more than one time on the reels.

This could also explain why some people think the reels are weighted, whereas in fact they are a set reel strip order.

2) This was my real concern. The notoriously long reel #5 on RTG slots made it hard to tell.

Mind you it's only a long reel 5 strip on some games.

3) Boy I got into trouble with one! But I am sincerely happy for you answer, since it means I was right all the time
In short there was a discussion about the randomness of the "random jackpot" for RTG slots. INetBet forum-representative joined the discussion and claimed hitting the random jackpot did not depend on the bet-size, but had an equal chance on each spins. This did not make sense (payout favor small bets) to me and I proved mathematically that it could not be true. INetBet was then helpful and provided me with a sheet of ~60 RJ hits and corresponding bet-size and player name. Also InetBet wrote to RTG and asked this question, but RTG answered the same as INetBet did(ie. bet-size did not matter). However statistical analysis of the seemly short data gave a clear answer: The bet-size DID matter. I was not allowed to publish the jackpot data for INetBet with my results. This made sense as I was able tell a lot of InetBet players/bet-size under the assumption of jackpot depended on bet-size.

Bet size does matter.
Whoever responded to Inetbet from RTG was incorrect...and that doesn't mean that a lie was made, as that implies intent and a reason for deception.
There would no be reason to lie, so my assumption is that the question was put to the wrong person (and let's be fair, an industry rep or client liaison person is not always going to get a mathematical answer right, or necessarily pass the question on to the tech team for verification).

Besides there once was a curious but most devastating Fruit Frenzy bug that existed for weeks. No matter what - you could never hit the target in the bonus game. It missed 100%. So the number of freespins was always a minimum. Since payout% contribution of the freespin bonus games for typical slots are in the range 20-40%, this would mean Fruit Frenzy was having a really low payout% (RTP) during that bug. Was this a configuration issue? Because then some slots could be set to a really low payout%. (85% range)

There's categorically no 85% RTP.
I can't remember this issue, but it's possible that there was a glitch when the game first went live that was subsequently rectified, if it occurred for 1-2 weeks after go live?

As an interesting fact I can confirm RTG can change the payout% in realtime, however the players are booted, but they can log in right after and they will be downloading the new version of the game. I tried this with 9/6 JoB videopoker that changed into 8/5 when I was still clearing a welcome bonus.

Changes to RTP settings can only be made infrequently, but even then it wouldn't boot you from the system and be downloading a new version of the game.

All RTP changes would occur on the server end (so it would access appropriate reel strips etc on the server side, not the player's client side).

The ony reason for a download would be a graphical update, such as when we added the "+1 Free Game" logo to the scatters during free games in Aztecs.

I'm not sure whether the system would boot you to install a graphics update though, in fact I'm fairly sure it wouldn't. It would install the new graphics when the game was loaded the next time.

I was not aware that the weird maximum payout (40000*line bet on RTG) or maximum number of free-spins on IGT (Cleopatra II, Wolf Run etc.) was due to a legal issue about maximum payout. And you are right in most cases that this is really negligible in terms of payout%(RTP). But in case of "Rain Dance" I think the number of lines you play makes substantial difference in terms of payout%, maybe as much as 1%. This is because that IF you hit the 5-scatters then there is a really good chance you are hitting the cap. So if you are playing less lines the total win/bet-size will be higher due to the *40000 line bet cap.

Rain Dance is certainly the one that would suffer most, though even then it would be a very small loss to overall RTP, due to the infrequency of hitting 5 scatters.

After some discussions with RTG the max win settings will shortly be moved to 50,000 times line bet, though this might only be for new product rolling out. Will get back to you on retrofit possiblity.

"Items like reel strip layout are like any other trade secret." This surprises me. It was not that hard to crack the MG slots (done using two different methods that gave the same result). Besides it is very easy to design a new slot and configure payout% to certain levels. And as you did with RTG, simply making reel#5 very long makes small adjustments easier. Besides with my slot-analyzer anyone can make a new slot (standard free spin slot).[/QUOTE]

It's one thing to design a new slot and one thing to design a good new slot

Da Dog

 

[DogBoy001]

I thought it was a pertinent point in light of Dogboys previous comments;

I've made RTG aware that I was posting to the forums here, since I felt there was a need to clear up some miscomprehensions.
The other reason is that we deal with a lot of land-based markets and land-based groups...our reputation is on the line too, so it's important to realise that a fair system is highly important to RTG

I am sure Dogboy can make his own decision as to whether it warrants a response.

If the last part of that statement is relevant to your recent editing activities, then yes I agree.

I've edited several posts to fix spelling errors...I hate spelling errors

 

[DogBoy001]

Well Dogboy, I guess that leaves us at an impasse.
I have really enjoyed discussing this with you and thank you for your level and informed approach.
Obviously there are still issues that I feel remain unresolved as to the integrity of online gaming software and until they are I will remain suspicious that they have payouts as high 97% and are truly random and unweighted but we will just be going around in circles if I continue to site them here.

Thanks again for the inside technical info

PS
Did you make any contribution to Achilles my favorite RTG game?

Heya,

No worries Rusty, I understand and respect everyone's right to make their own decisions and formulate their own conclusions

And yep, Achilles is one of ours

Enjoy!

Da Dog

 

[DogBoy001]

And IGT on Wolf Run of course

Talking of which, when a port of a land-based slot like WR is taken online, is the % adjusted up by changing the reel combinations based on what you said earlier? So in actual fact, it isn't execatly the same game. Also, with the land based ones, how do they alter the payouts? Being video slos, can something be changed on the chip to change the reel symbols or something, or are they a fixed % ?

Heya,

I'm not certain of the specifics of WR land-based versus net.

Re the second part:
It works exactly the same as a net version, in that the different RTP settings will have different reel strips, feature probability tables for things like pick 'n' win features and so on.
In each machine there may be 5 or 6 RTP settings stored at the time the game is installed. The operator can then select the setting they use (typically this can be changed once per month).

In Australia there would typically be an 85, 87, 89, 90 and 92 version of each game available after installation...and most clubs and pubs would then choose the lowest and forget about it

Da Dog

 

[DogBoy001]

Thank you for your input. Yeah I'm quite happy with 20 - 25 line games, which as you said is where a majority of land based slots are (in Australia).

What I actually meant to say is that the top paylines pay so little in comparision to online casinos. It can be up to 50% less of what a similar payline at the same denomination would pay in an online casino (RTG for example). I've converted alot of physical slot players to online because of this; but as you said, the social aspect of playing at a club or casino is an integral part of the atmosphere.

I've generally found star city to have the highest pay percentage (seeing that you're in Sydney), so I do most of my physical slotting over there. Pubs and clubs have really reduced their payout percentages in my opinion (increase in gaming tax, economic downturn etc).

By the way; you mentioned that you worked for IGT, did you play any part in the development of "Cleopatra"? Another great slot

Heya,

Yeah, the top pays can be fairly crappy.
The reason is mainly the $10,000 or $5,000 cap on payouts and operators still wanting to have a max bet capability (of $10 or $5)

Games get restricted in top prize when they have large feature multipliers, or lots of coinciding win possibilities, to reduce the impact or chance of prizes occurring that would take them over this cap (and no single prize can be possible that would exceed it).
Easier to work backwards.

e.g.: On 25 lines a $10 max bet means that a button configuration of Bet 40 per line might be installed on a 1c denomination game.
Top prize would be 1000000 cents
Divide that by 40 and you get 25,000
If you have a possible free game multiplier of say x5, top prize becomes 5,000

If you have conciding lines that will add to this the regulators may require that they be taken into consideration...so it can fall dramatically.

On something like 50 Lions, for example, where you could hit Lions across the screen and get top prize on all 50 line at once:
On a 1c version:
1000000 max prize (NSW), divided by 50 lines = 20000
You're getting 50 lines for 25c, so up to bet 40
20000/40 = 500 top prize (which is what top prize is on 50 Lions)

Worked for IGT directly between 98 and 2000, so Cleo came after me

And yep, Star City and Penrith Panthers are the only two Sydney locations that use the higher settings (mostly they use 90%)

Da Dog

 

[Rusty]

I've edited several posts to fix spelling errors...I hate spelling errors

This where things get confusing;
That post was for Simmo's eyes and the quote from you was put in to justify me asking you if RTG were planning to be more forceful when it comes to unscrupulous operators using their software than they have in the past as this would be an important step in the eyes of many in proving they were serious about protecting their brand image.

I understand that it may not be within your scope to answer such a question though.

 

[bb28]

Fascinating reading here, not just from Dogboy001 but also from our regular forum members who have a grasp on this.

 

[DogBoy001]

This where things get confusing;
That post was for Simmo's eyes and the quote from you was put in to justify me asking you if RTG were planning to be more forceful when it comes to unscrupulous operators using their software than they have in the past as this would be an important step in the eyes of many in proving they were serious about protecting their brand image.

I understand that it may not be within your scope to answer such a question though.

Heya,

I recognise that there are concerns on various levels, but operator issues have to remain outside the boundaries of what I can comment on.

Da Dog

 

[Zoozie]

And IGT on Wolf Run of course

Talking of which, when a port of a land-based slot like WR is taken online, is the % adjusted up by changing the reel combinations based on what you said earlier? So in actual fact, it isn't execatly the same game. Also, with the land based ones, how do they alter the payouts? Being video slos, can something be changed on the chip to change the reel symbols or something, or are they a fixed % ?

For IGT the slots are exactly the same. I managed to get hold of the IGT specification papers for Cleopatra . Cleopatra online is 100% identical to the landbased and I have seen wagerworks slots uses two different of the configurations (95% and 96%). Paddypower started with the 96% version but later it was changed into the 95%. The differences in the reels for these
two configurations is so minor that you will never notice. (Both are included in the slot analyzer btw).

 

[Zoozie]

"Changes to RTP settings can only be made infrequently, but even then it wouldn't boot you from the system and be downloading a new version of the game."

This did happen in the video poker incident I experienced. Also since the VP paytable changed which the players can see, I except this would require a new download? I did take it personal then though. I had just claimed the welcome at VIP Lounge casino - I was not aware it was in the RTG rogue group before weeks later.

The Fruit Frenzy bug was not at the release it just happened suddenly. This would be another way to tweak the RTP besides changing the reels. (Also the reason why this and similar slots can not be analyzed exactly, since we do not know those
probabilities that exists in bonus-game feature)

 

[Zoozie]

Correct.
One item to note though is that there may be several instances on a reel where the same visible result is going to occur.
e.g.: Suppose one section of the layout had:

K
Q
Goat
9
K

It may be that, for example,

Goat
9
K

Yes, but this is covered in 1) to 4). But this actually happened once when
we cracked Thunderstruck. There was two possible solutions to one of the reels when put the reel fraqments (each of 4 symbols, you can see symbol above payline also). But the good thing was it did not matter in terms of RTP since this only depends on how many times each symbol occours on each reel.) But the other method we used (traffic sniffing) gave the reels right away. They are sent to the flash client as first thing after the slot has loaded.

 

[Zoozie]

Tell me about it!
I'm doing Cashapillar at the moment - between 80 to 94 symbols on every reel!

Has to be done.

This could easy take 50+ hours. Is Cashapillar in the flash version yet? Because then you can use Kimss method and it will only take 5 minutes.

 

[DogBoy001]

"Changes to RTP settings can only be made infrequently, but even then it wouldn't boot you from the system and be downloading a new version of the game."

This did happen in the video poker incident I experienced. Also since the VP paytable changed which the players can see, I except this would require a new download? )

Heya,

Yep, any art change would require a download update.

The Fruit Frenzy bug was not at the release it just happened suddenly. This would be another way to tweak the RTP besides changing the reels. (Also the reason why this and similar slots can not be analyzed exactly, since we do not know those
probabilities that exists in bonus-game feature)

Yep, probability schedules used in features of this type can be tricky.

I had the same issues when I first got into the industry, at which time I decided the best way forward was to analyse a stack of the most, and the least, successful games on the market.

The easiest way I found was to assume the total RTP setting for a given game (in this case assume, say, 95%) and analyse the base game reels.
The surplus, after deducting any extra components such as random jackpots, must make up the feature component.

After that it's a case of playtesting and gathering a rough idea of the feature play to give a fair enough idea of the probability schedule weighting used in determining something like the number of free games awarded in a variable situation.

Mind you, I'm sure you're already doing this, but thought I'd clarify for any other interested parties

Da Dog

 

[Simmo!]

...deducting any extra components such as random jackpots, must make up the feature component...

Out of interest, what % of RTP does the typical RJ account for based on it's standard median figure?

 

[DogBoy001]

Out of interest, what % of RTP does the typical RJ account for based on it's standard median figure?

Heya,

All RJ variants have jackpot parameters that result in less than 1.5% of the total RTP being used for this purpose (including both reset value and increment).

Edit: or should I say: All RTG RJ's.
In the land-based they vary hugely.

Da Dog

 

[Simmo!]

Heya,

All RJ variants have jackpot parameters that result in less than 1.5% of the total RTP being used for this purpose (including both reset value and increment).

Interesting - so (sticking with RTG), say an RJ creeps up say $10k, maybe even $20k...do the reel layouts adjust to keep it within that scope of 1.5%? Or is it programmed in such a way that even if gets up over $20k (example), the RTP effect is only 1.5% max?

 

[DogBoy001]

Interesting - so (sticking with RTG), say an RJ creeps up say $10k, maybe even $20k...do the reel layouts adjust to keep it within that scope of 1.5%? Or is it programmed in such a way that even if gets up over $20k (example), the RTP effect is only 1.5% max?

Yep, the total consumption isn't based on actual trigger values, but rather the mathematical average

As an example, say a RJ was set to trigger on average once every 100,000 units bet (on average), and has a reset value of $1000, with a 0.25% increment.
Average RTP would therefore be 1% for the reset seed of $1000, for a total RTP of 1.25%

If, say a RJ was set to trigger on average once every 250,000 units bet (on average), and has a reset value of $1000, with a 0.8% increment.
Average RTP would therefore be 0.4% for the reset seed of $1000, for a total RTP of 1.2%

Bets of less than or more than $1 would have a proportionately lower or higher chance to trigger the random.
In the first example a test of the RNG would be conducted with a 1 in 100000*(bet versus $1 unit) to see if the RJ was won on a given paid spin (not tested during a free game feature for instance).
In the second it would be 1/250000*(bet versus $1 unit)

So someone betting 10c in example 1 would have a 1 million chance of hitting, while someone betting $10 would have a 1 in 10,000 chance of hitting.

No adjustment is made for the level the RJ is at, as this is never part of the trigger test.
Sometimes it'll rise to great levels, other times it'll go off early.

Da Dog

 

[Simmo!]

Hmmm I think I'll leave the slot designing to you guys! Can't go anywhere til I've finished colouring in this picture of a puppy anyway.

Thx

 

[Rusty]

Heya,

Yep, any art change would require a download update.



Yep, probability schedules used in features of this type can be tricky.

I had the same issues when I first got into the industry, at which time I decided the best way forward was to analyse a stack of the most, and the least, successful games on the market.

The easiest way I found was to assume the total RTP setting for a given game (in this case assume, say, 95%) and analyse the base game reels.
The surplus, after deducting any extra components such as random jackpots, must make up the feature component.

After that it's a case of playtesting and gathering a rough idea of the feature play to give a fair enough idea of the probability schedule weighting used in determining something like the number of free games awarded in a variable situation.

Mind you, I'm sure you're already doing this, but thought I'd clarify for any other interested parties

Da Dog

As rough guide to average slots player I would say most aim for about 20% RTP in bonus features and obviously this is divided (although not necessarily equally) if there are more than One bonus features.
The figure is almost certainly never less than 10% or more than 35%.

A designer would be interested in;

1) How often the features should be triggered.
2) Average RTP of features in One full cycle (also min max caps prob)
3) How much variance should exist in the amounts awarded of each feature.

Now here is the really interesting bit;

As an example, you design a genuine random slot that has 10 Million combinations with a freespin feature that would on average return 25% after a full cycle.
It is a (little/lot) more complicated than this because you actually need to cycle through every possible free game result as well for an accurate RTP so divide total freespins won in one cycle into total combos(10M in this case) and that is the amount of times you need to run through the cycle.
Even then it is more complicated still if you do not have a set amount of freespins awarded on each feature trigger.

Sorry this is a very in-elegant description but roughly explains why developers use things like probability tables and WEIGHTING

Imagine if you will your jackpot is 50,000 coins and freespins pay X3 and you have just opened your shiny new casino then some highroller hits the damn Jackpot on freespins. KABOOMB!
Even if it did not put you out of business or give you horrible cash flow problems just how long would it take to get back in profit with this player?

Now Dogboy only says that the probability of the amount of freegames awarded (in a slot that awards variable feespins) is weighted but that is still cheating and I can assure is not "to the players advantage".
The expected RTP to player is being altered in real time.

That is why I am annoyed when people use the term "conspiracy theory" to try and debunk the fact that online slots are dynamically weighted.

Now, consider how else these probability tables and dynamic weighting may manifest themselves in a pickem bonus round or set free spins or just in normal play.
Now go and play any of the slots I have highlighted as examples and you may just see things in a new light.

I do not for One second believe Dogboy is a dishonest person and I genuinely believe that he feels online slots give a fair game.
Indeed even with all that I have written here it can still be claimed that slots are fair and random and offer high RTP.
What they are not is 100% independent of all previous results and completely unweighted.
In the end perhaps all that matters is if the player feels they are getting value for money but I still live in hope that One day we will see a properly tested, fully regulated, independently audited all singing 100% random 97% RTP slot online

 

[DogBoy001]

Now Dogboy only says that the probability of the amount of freegames awarded (in a slot that awards variable feespins) is weighted but that is still cheating and I can assure is not "to the players advantage".

Heya,

I think you're gravely misunderstanding what a probability schedule does kin this instance (i.e.: weighting of whether, for example, 5, 10, 15, 25 or 100 free games are awarded in say a second screen pick feature)

If you had an equal chance for each event in the pick feature then on average you would be awarding 31 free games.
Utterly impossible unless you want to have no feature multiplier of prizes, or virtually no wins in a feature, or unless you want to be devoting 40% or more of your game RTP to the feature and have it hit once every 200 spins...in short, impossible unless you want a crap game.

Weighting is required in order to provide a balanced game.
So in this case you may have, for example, a 10% chance to award 5 free games, a 50% chance for 10 FG, 20% for 15 FG, 18% for 25 FG and 2% for 100 FG, yielding an average of 15 FG.

To say that weighting of pick feature awards of free game amount equates to cheating is a stretch.
By that rationale there should be an equal chance of getting 3, 4 or 5 scatters in a game, given that these may award different free game amounts.

Fact is that the probability of hitting 4 or 5 scatters is certainly not that of hitting 3...and probability is what it's all about.

The expected RTP to player is being altered in real time.

Nope.

The feature RTP and all calculations are made without reference to events that are happening on the fly.
There is no "magic button" that allows and operator to say "Oh my god, I'm losing to 1% of my players, adjust all feature pick probabilities to award 5 free games only".

That is why I am annoyed when people use the term "conspiracy theory" to try and debunk the fact that online slots are dynamically weighted.

Hmmm, well it ain't the truth, denies information put forward by those that know, and more than one person believes it and puts it forward, I'd say that fits the definition of a conspiracy theory

I do not for One second believe Dogboy is a dishonest person and I genuinely believe that he feels online slots give a fair game.

I genuinely know that RTG does...the others I can't testify to

Indeed even with all that I have written here it can still be claimed that slots are fair and random and offer high RTP.
What they are not is 100% independent of all previous results and completely unweighted..

Yes, they are.

There is absolutely (speaking for RTG's system) and categorically, utterly and positively no test done of current RTP from a game or set of games that results in a dynamic adjustment of the RTP.

That is how UK AWP's work.
It is not how this on-line system works.

In the end perhaps all that matters is if the player feels they are getting value for money but I still live in hope that One day we will see a properly tested, fully regulated, independently audited all singing 100% random 97% RTP slot online

I'll drink to that...though of course then you'd still have to trust the auditors (and let's face it, beancounters like the big accounting firms signed off on Enron and a swag of other companies whose accounts were most certainly not in order...an audit does not equate to a guarantee)

Da Dog

 

[KasinoKing]

This could easy take 50+ hours. Is Cashapillar in the flash version yet? Because then you can use Kimss method and it will only take 5 minutes.

It's not as bad a you (or I!) first thought.
This is one of the MG slots where the spinning reels are actually of the full layout.
Therefore by using an enforced disconnect & only about 20-25 screenshots per reel I reckon I can crack it in about 10-15 hours of work.
Already done reels 1 & 4 - trying to fit the rest in over the next week or so.

 

[Rusty]

Hi Dog,
Heya,

I think you're gravely misunderstanding what a probability schedule does kin this instance (i.e.: weighting of whether, for example, 5, 10, 15, 25 or 100 free games are awarded in say a second screen pick feature)

If you had an equal chance for each event in the pick feature then on average you would be awarding 31 free games.
Utterly impossible unless you want to have no feature multiplier of prizes, or virtually no wins in a feature, or unless you want to be devoting 40% or more of your game RTP to the feature and have it hit once every 200 spins...in short, impossible unless you want a crap game.

Weighting is required in order to provide a balanced game.
So in this case you may have, for example, a 10% chance to award 5 free games, a 50% chance for 10 FG, 20% for 15 FG, 18% for 25 FG and 2% for 100 FG, yielding an average of 15 FG.

To say that weighting of pick feature awards of free game amount equates to cheating is a stretch.
By that rationale there should be an equal chance of getting 3, 4 or 5 scatters in a game, given that these may award different free game amounts.

Fact is that the probability of hitting 4 or 5 scatters is certainly not that of hitting 3...and probability is what it's all about.



Yes I did misunderstand what you were saying and I accept that explanation of why you would weight the amount of free games awarded in this instance.

The only thing I do not agree with is that there is no dynamic weighting and that is the biggie.



Hmmm, well it ain't the truth, denies information put forward by those that know, and more than one person believes it and puts it forward, I'd say that fits the definition of a conspiracy theory




It also fits the definition of a cover up


I'll drink to that...though of course then you'd still have to trust the auditors (and let's face it, beancounters like the big accounting firms signed off on Enron and a swag of other companies whose accounts were most certainly not in order...an audit does not equate to a guarantee)

Amen
I would though be happy with a respected independent body such as the UK gambling commission checking software was fair and then all those fantastic RTG sites and others that have these 97% payout slots would have to advertise the fact loud and proud

Until then I will trust in God (You are not him are you )

 

[DogBoy001]

Until then I will trust in God (You are not him are you )

Lol, not last time I checked

I think it'll be an ongoing process to improve player confidence, and I certainly agree that an independent verification process in the future would be advantageous for all concerned.

Da Dog

 

[Fleur-De-Lis]

Sorry for digging this oldie out, but - reference to the very first post on this thread - I have just had similar glitch, and this time took screenshot of it:

There is a message saying I have 60 free spins, while in fact at the time the message appeared I had 15 only. Sent it to KS, wonder if they respond )))

 

[Fleur-De-Lis]

Funny... few hours later, same casino, same 'glitch' but with a different twist

Got feature, started shooting the strawberry into a melon, hit it right on target 2 times out of 3 - which is supposed to get me 15 free spins - and screenshot below shows it as 15 at the moment I taken it. One shot is still remaining.

At the same time, message on top of the screen kindly informed me that I was 'awarded 10 free spins'.

What is funny here? The fact that Support keeps denying there is any glitch and keep quoting game rules

Dear Fleur,

I would like to inform you that it will be add to whatever you have won so far, depending on what your
winning combination was, you are awarded 1, 2 3 rounds of the bonus
feature. Each round of the feature you have 3 shots, if you do not hit
any of the 3 shots in the middle of the melon, you will get 5 free
spins, and it says 5 free spins awarded so far, then the second round
starts, you have another 3 shots etc and so it goes on, the more you
win, the more it adds to the amount of free spins awarded so far.

I you still have any questions please do come back to me.

Thank you

Pari

Anyway, I do not really complain - as long as I do get these features and win

 

[steinhaug]

I know, an old thread, however I couldn't help myself taking part of this as it really turns the slot upside down! This is a very important thread indeed!

Why is it not possible to just design a slot that has no memory a 95% payout, is completely random, has static symbols and does NOT have predetermined feature results?
What are the casinos afraid of?

If they did make this, we would all be happy, however the casino would in my opinion be able to loose more money since you could "sweeze" out bad spells in low wager and get the wins at higher stakes. If the machine doesn't see difference of a winning combination at $9 and $0.09 this could be a very expencive adventure for the casino...

Then I read that Dogboy admits in plain view that the symbols can be dynamically altered during spins by the system to "balance" things... Well - this tells me something very important! This tells me that the machine is working against an overall goal - which is 95% (or whatever is set) and the reels will just be tweaked all the time to give the wins needed to acomplish this goal. This is the opposite of a slot designed to randombly achieve the same!

I have always said this - the slots are just a mathematical calculation which will balance out the payout - not the reels in random achieving the same. The end result will still be the same - however there is an incredible difference here!

However, all this has no problems at all, since the house edge will still be the same in the end so I do not care. It confirms that higher wagers are not identical to lower wagers since the system calculates a win and presents the win with the reel combination that fits the bill. In the long run the result is still the same... Or is it!

What it boils down to, as we know a casino only allows 1 account pr user, is the fairness. Since Dogboy already stated that the system will be able in some systems to, due to past huge wins, balance out the win cycle. Do this work on a player to player basis - or are all players in the same pool?

The difference is a game changer!

If I go to a casino and win much, and someone come into between and loose bigtime! I have more interest in playing at that machine again. Dogboy already confirms this, he already states that a system with a low payout will balance this out with tweaking the symbols to present higher wins than possible to achieve a higher payout to balance out. This would explain the obvious win cycles... This would also confirm what I already know, when a player looses much money on high stakes you can easily win back a bit of it at lower stakes. However online, I get a feeling I am just continuing where I left of, the other person loosing much on higher stakes is not taking into my consideration as this is on his gaming stats in his account - he weill have his own benefit of this by getting his own guaranteed win cycle to get his promoted 95% payout.

And again - this will make me a huge looser in the end since the system will change symbols, shorten reel bands or whatever neccersary to make _my_ global payout correct for _me_. The only way I can really win, is winning a random jackpot - or at the start of the account before balancin meassures kicks in - or if some % of the payouts are saved for "general pool".

I know from game developers that what the machine takes in, are saved in different pools for payout. One pool could be for gambles, where gambles also are devided into low - medium and high. It could be a pool for freespins, bonus games, 5x symbols and such. Surely one could be a "random" non weighted (balanced) pool aswell - it really depends on how many layers of mechanics you want to apply the game to make it look and feel truly random. (see the difference her - you mathematically create a bullet proof engine with the goal of making it look and feel truly random).

Also - would all the games run individually, or would the overall control mechanism work for all games. My old statement for MG - you are playing one game with 180+ skins, not 180 individually games.

You said it best yourself, the system tells how much I am supposed to win - the game presentational engine if you like, just shows the reelbands in a position representing the amount I am supposed to win - on the game I am playing at the time. This is my personal belief, and my statistical data seems to point heavily in this direction.

The slot's are no longer slot's - they are just fancy lottery tickets!

Thanks for clearing this up and giving my theory even more weight.

 

[steinhaug]

Correct.
One item to note though is that there may be several instances on a reel where the same visible result is going to occur.
e.g.: Suppose one section of the layout had:

K
Q
Goat
9
K

It may be that, for example,

Goat
9
K

occurs at some other position on the reels in addition to the instance above.
So if the stop position is that particular 9 in either case, the display will be Goat 9 K
The result is that the same visible combination will occur but will actually not be the same stop position on the reels. For a player trying to analyse the layout they will not know that this is a repeated layout.
Hmm, but then again, with enough analysis you'd realise that it's occurring more frequently than most other combinations and could theorise that it is a combination layout that is repeated at more than one time on the reels.

This could also explain why some people think the reels are weighted, whereas in fact they are a set reel strip order.

Analyzing reel strips should never be done visually online, instead you sniff the network traffic and you get 100% correct reel position. Margin of error is therefore 0%.

 

[Rusty]

Analyzing reel strips should never be done visually online, instead you sniff the network traffic and you get 100% correct reel position. Margin of error is therefore 0%.

Talking about repeated combinations of symbols;
This could also explain why some people think the reels are weighted, whereas in fact they are a set reel strip order

I doubt it was a genuine suggestion but rather a little disinformation since all the symbols relative to the discussion only have One instance on the reelband.
Anyway it contradicts His other statement that symbols are added/removed/changed from reelbands to change RTP or in freespins.
I guess DogBoy would say they are set except when they are changed (At Casinos request) cough.

Anyway it does not matter what I believe or what Dogboy would like to present as fact people can make their own minds up now and RTG software is no worse than say Rival IMHO in fact I prefer it, just don't tell me it is completely random and unweighted.

 

[steinhaug]

Also, from what I understood from the thread DogBoy is a game strategy designer. To me that tells me he works on the look and feel of the game and really do not apply the mathematical mechanics of the game. He probably knows alot about this though since his company, I assume, delivers complete games aswell with the RNG engine.

I also noticed in his comments that the game Ronin was applied to the existing system, meaning the RNG engine is off limits - only proven by long run statistics to be accurate - and to be correct here - by accurate we referr to getting the correct payout percentage. He aknowledges that certain parts of the game has to we balanced, obviously a more prefessional word than weighted, to ensure a good gameplay. However - we are to believe - the balancing only applies to the parts of the game which doesn't really screw the player. We are left with his own comment, balancing are always in the players interest (which is true if the players interest is getting a 95% payout experience in the long run).

He also states that previous results are never taken into account for the RNG engine when balancing occures. Well - to me this is a contradiction, since a balance algorythm has to use some sort of data. If previous data is not use what do we then use? Future data? And if the goal is 95% payout, which the system will balance somewhere to fullfill, what perspective are we talking here? Is this based on a player session, in $10.000 worth of spins, coin sizes of 10 million spins? It sure seems I meet 95% payout quite quickly when flatbetting any MG casino at $9, do not need 10 million spins to acomplish this.

I applaude his comments in this forum, as it is from the horse's mouth!

However I would believe that when it comes down to the RNG engine we are, as in most businesses that make huge money, talking extreme compartmentalisation. I am pretty sure he has knowledge of the pure basics of the RNG engine, but has no clue on the layers surrounding it.

I just won't believe there are just a mathematical equation that runs a video slot - though a true random slot would only need this.

 

[DogBoy001]

Heyas,

I love being mis-quoted, but I did clear up in this thread what I mean by reel strip changes, having misunderstood the discussion of "dynamic", so please don't take isolated quotes and ignore the rest of the information.

Symbols are in a set, static order, with every stop on the reel strip having an equal probability of being hit on any given spin.
Win evaluation is subsequent to the reel stop locations being randomly determined.

Changes are often made to the reel strip from one RTP to another, for example there may be a reel strip difference between a 95% RTP game and a 97.5% version of the same game. e.g.: A symbol at a certain position on a certain reel strip may be swapped out for another to yield a higher RTP.
In both instances the reel strip order is still static and each position is unweighted and has the same change of being hit.

Reel strip changes made in free games or other features, such as re-spins, function in the same manner.
So, for example, an A at a particular location might be changed to a Substitute for the duration of the feature.
Again, once the change has been made (which occurs prior to any spin result being called) the subsequent strip is static and unweighted.

Wooof