Slot Mechanics (Was: Fruit Frenzy Game glitch or frenzy?)

Fleur-De-Lis

Senior Member
Joined
Dec 11, 2007
Location
CY
I was playing Fruit Frenzy game many of you probably know. Unfortunately, when I played for real I did not think to take screenshots, so I later on I made similar screenshots for easier understanding of what I am talking about, while re-playing in fun mode.

That's what happened. I had hit two 5-of-a-kind at the same time, which entitled me to Bonus round(s). Here are the terms:
terms.jpg


Next step, I was taken to a page that looks like this:
bonus_round.jpg

Only in my case, I had words 'bonus round 1 of 2' on the top - I had to make 3 shots two times, total of 6 attempts.
When I was on my 2nd round shooting this strawberry creature, below that message 'Round 2 of 2', I had seen message '45 free spins awarded so far'

With shoots completed, I was returned to main screen:
back.jpg

and got message on top "30 free spins - start your free spins".

I do not know if I should be confused, I guess I am. First, 45 is not the same as 30 (not with my bet size, at least). Second, I cannot figure out how one can get 45 free spins (on a single bonus round, max. you can get if you shoot poor strawberry on target, is 25 spins. I believe I hit it 5 times out of 6, that's supposed to be 40. Neither 45, nor 30...). May be when you get 2 rounds simultaneously, it is different? Confused...:confused:

P.S. Casino support "will look into it" of course, but I was under impression that the rep thought I am crazy/retarded when I was explaining the matter...
 
Sounds like a glitch in the display.

30 spins can be gained by 2x15, or by reaching 25 on one round and getting the 0 hits consolation of 5 on the second.

I have had 2 bonus rounds before, and did not see anything amiss at the time. Indeed, I hit the full 50 spins.


There IS something odd about this game though, look VERY closely at the rules;)
 
1)
There IS something odd about this game though, look VERY closely at the rules;)

I looked into it till my eyes started hurting ;) Please hint.

2)
I have had 2 bonus rounds before, and did not see anything amiss at the time

Do you remember if there was sort of a status message when on a second round? In my case, it was below words "Round 2 of 2" and just before I got redirected back to slots read "45 free spins awarded so far". I tried to re-create the situation in fun play, but did not have the patience...
 
1)

I looked into it till my eyes started hurting ;) Please hint.

2)

Do you remember if there was sort of a status message when on a second round? In my case, it was below words "Round 2 of 2" and just before I got redirected back to slots read "45 free spins awarded so far". I tried to re-create the situation in fun play, but did not have the patience...

OK then:D

It does not matter how many lines you play on the base game, free spins are ALWAYS played on ALL 25 LINES!!

These slots are not the same as "normal" video slots, they are weighted and/or regulated in some way, else it would be impossible to have different RTG casinos with different payout settings for each game (93%, 95% and 97% are supposedly confirmed as available).

It is therefore quite possible that optimum strategy lies in NOT playing all 25 lines in the base game, and amplifying the LINE BET that governs the overall cap on feature payouts, as well as ensuring some decent payouts on a relatively small stake.
The cap is set as 40,000 x LINE BET, so by triggering the bonus with fewer lines, the cap as a multiple of initial stake should be that much greater.

It is when you get a retrigger that this REALLY comes into play;)
 
You can be sure that the strawberry will not fly all into melon.

I guess it was near the 30 as 45 spins.

15 and 15 or 25 and 5

The strawberry flys surely minimum 3 times out of the melon and say "oops"

Can be that there was showing a message for 45 spins but assume that it was 30 spins whereby I like to grant you the 45.

wait what support say, good luck ;)
 
OK then:D

It does not matter how many lines you play on the base game, free spins are ALWAYS played on ALL 25 LINES!!
...

It is therefore quite possible that optimum strategy lies in NOT playing all 25 lines in the base game, and amplifying the LINE BET that governs the overall cap on feature payouts, as well as ensuring some decent payouts on a relatively small stake.
Surprised you missed this one VWM! :eek:

The bonus is always played on 25 lines because the feature is triggered by 5 of a kind on a WINLINE, and NOT by getting scatters anywhere in view.

All line wins on any slot should be the same regardless of how many lines you are playing, otherwise it wouldn't be fair.
E.G. If you played just 1 line on the slot & got 4 of a kind, it would pay the same (for that line) as if you were playing 25 lines.

So the 'value' of the feature is exactly the same on Fruit Frenzy whether you play 25 lines or just 1 line.
Of course, if you only play 1 line it will take you 25x more spins (on average) to hit the feature.
Therefore everything evens out to give the same return in the long run, no matter how many lines you play.

KK ;)
 
Surprised you missed this one VWM! :eek:

The bonus is always played on 25 lines because the feature is triggered by 5 of a kind on a WINLINE, and NOT by getting scatters anywhere in view.

All line wins on any slot should be the same regardless of how many lines you are playing, otherwise it wouldn't be fair.
E.G. If you played just 1 line on the slot & got 4 of a kind, it would pay the same (for that line) as if you were playing 25 lines.

So the 'value' of the feature is exactly the same on Fruit Frenzy whether you play 25 lines or just 1 line.
Of course, if you only play 1 line it will take you 25x more spins (on average) to hit the feature.
Therefore everything evens out to give the same return in the long run, no matter how many lines you play.

KK ;)

Not with RTG though;)

With MG, the feature would have the same value, however, RTG has some kind of weighting or dynamic reel strip allocation that is used to control the payback.
Playing fewer lines would force such balancing software to give more in the way of 5 of a kind wins in order to meet the target set by the operator.

On top of this, RTG casinos are heavily into giving phantom boni, and to beat such offers, higher variance is needed.

If Fruit Frenzy is played with a lower number of lines, the features will trigger less often, however they will pay more, and far more use will be made of these phantom bonuses. More chance of them coming into play before a big hit comes along.

With the play involving a slot, "excluded games" should not become a point of argument when it comes to paying out.

If any RTG casino sees fit to exclude "Fruit Frenzy" from bonus play, I would take this as a direct admission that their slots are not "standard", but weighted with payouts configurable - something we all know, but no RTG casino would care to spell out in public;)

Put another way - it works;)
 
Not with RTG though;)

With MG, the feature would have the same value, however, RTG has some kind of weighting or dynamic reel strip allocation that is used to control the payback.
Playing fewer lines would force such balancing software to give more in the way of 5 of a kind wins in order to meet the target set by the operator.

On top of this, RTG casinos are heavily into giving phantom boni, and to beat such offers, higher variance is needed.

If Fruit Frenzy is played with a lower number of lines, the features will trigger less often, however they will pay more, and far more use will be made of these phantom bonuses. More chance of them coming into play before a big hit comes along.

With the play involving a slot, "excluded games" should not become a point of argument when it comes to paying out.

If any RTG casino sees fit to exclude "Fruit Frenzy" from bonus play, I would take this as a direct admission that their slots are not "standard", but weighted with payouts configurable - something we all know, but no RTG casino would care to spell out in public;)

Put another way - it works;)

Hi all,

My first post, though I must say I've read through the forums for some time now.

I think it's fitting that I reply, given that my company designs and supplies numerous games to both the land-based and net gaming industries.

My way of background, I was a strategy game designer who fell into gaming (gambling) games after many years whiling away the hours in a multitude of Australian pubs, clubs and casinos.
I joined IGT and ended up designing over a hundred slot games there, before joining a company founded by by former IGT director to design and develop games with a wider industry focus (by that read "internet", to accompany traditional development)
I have, throughout the years, designed games for most of the majors, both land-based and net.

Now to the case in point:
KasinoKing is correct, mathematically it the same whether it is 1 line or 25 lines, and in this case there is no supplementary weghting system required (indeed unless the software is absolute crap I can't think of a case in which it would be required).
In its simplest form:
While the chance to trigger at max line is 25 times the chance on 1 line, the bet is proportional.
In both instances the play in free games is at 25 lines.

Let's say RTP per free game is 5000%, since calculations would be based on single line play, but 25 are now being used (so base game RTP in this instance is 25 that of the typical base RTP, assuming no reel strip or other adjustments are occurring).
The chance to trigger on 1 line may be, for example, 1 in 2500.

So in the case of a trigger on 1 line: 1/2500*5000% = relative return per game = 2% (of total RTP)
In the case of trigger on 25 lines: 25/2500*5000%/25 = 2% of total RTP (you're dividing by 25 as the bet is now 25 times higher)

If there were on average, say, 12 games, feature RTP would be 12*2% = 24% (out of say a 95% game total RTP)

Hope that makes sense

Da Dog
 
Hi all,

My first post, though I must say I've read through the forums for some time now.

I think it's fitting that I reply, given that my company designs and supplies numerous games to both the land-based and net gaming industries.

Welcome DogBoy. You could be an interesting person to have around here :thumbsup:
 
Ok guys, here is what CS got back to me with (to be honest, I did not expect them to):

Hi

You played 25 lines, each at 0.25c a line, with a total bet of $6.25.

On the game number 154708179, you got 2 lines where you activated the free game feature by getting 2 x 5 goggles on a winning line; this meant you would have had 2 chances of winning free spins through the bonus feature.

This happened by having a goggle or substitute symbol on the following reels. You have activated it twice by having 5 of a kind winning lines.

Once you activated the bonus feature, you have 3 shots of shooting a strawberry out of a canon into a melon. And based on the result you get awarded free games as follows:

0 hits: 5 free spins
1 hit: 10 free spins
2 hits: 15 free spins
3 hits: 25 free spins

You got 2 hits on each feature you played and thus was rewarded with 30 free spins.

It is impossible to get 45 free spins from 2 bonus features, as it does not add up max you can get is 50 free spins, by getting 3 out of 3 on each feature round, after that the 2nd highest is 40 free spins by getting 25 on one win and another 15 on another win, after that 35 free spins with a 25 and a 10 win, and then what you received 2 x 15 free spin wins.

Hope that satisfies you

Best regards
Maurizio
Casino support
--------------------

Not that I am going to pursue it, no point whatsoever...BUT. 1) I *know* I got 30 free spins, and I *know* that 45 free spins cannot add up (see my posts 1&3), the reason I contacted CS was the message "45 free spins awarded so far" 2) I was positive I had 5 hits, and CS says it was 4. Fine, np again. However it looks like he is just guessing. In my original chat session I asked him if I can get access to games history and probably see screenshots of this particular games (like one can do in MG casinos), and he seemed genuinely puzzled. Screenhots, what? You can see them if you have taken them, no other way. LOL, I guess :p
 
Hi Dogboy,
Great first post.
I think this is a case of , "yup fine if the reels are not weighted" but as VWM points out the reels are most definately weighted on RTG slots and this is the detail on which his argument hinges on.
VWM will no doubt argue his own corner but just wanted to say Hi and "introduce" myself.
 
Hi Dogboy,
Great first post.
I think this is a case of , "yup fine if the reels are not weighted" but as VWM points out the reels are most definately weighted on RTG slots and this is the detail on which his argument hinges on.
VWM will no doubt argue his own corner but just wanted to say Hi and "introduce" myself.

Yes, it is the ability of RTG operators to weight the slot games to give payouts between 93% and 97%.

The Microgaming slot "5 Reel Drive", one of their early ones, is using short reel strips, but they are weighted. Some calculations and simulations were done that showed that playing different numbers of paylines made the payback different. The variation was between 88% and 96% if I can remember, with 96% being from playing all 9 lines, and playing 5 lines being the worst. Further, individual paylines paid out more than 100%, but the software does not allow individual lines to be selected.

Since RTG slots have some kind of weighting to match the operator settings, it is possible that strategy could result in better value from the game. RTG also have this artificial rule that a free spins feature will be halted early once 40,000x line bet is reached - this is certainly not random, it takes away the top slice of truly awesome payouts, yet leaves in place the really crappy bonus rounds that pay zero.
 
RTG also have this artificial rule that a free spins feature will be halted early once 40,000x line bet is reached - this is certainly not random, it takes away the top slice of truly awesome payouts, yet leaves in place the really crappy bonus rounds that pay zero.


Thanks for the welcome all!

Re the capping at 40000x line bet:
It's actually very common in the land-based industry to cap wins derived from a particular paid game (this is essential in many markets due to government regulation. In Australian States, for instance, capping is set at $10,000 or $5,000 (depending on State) irrespective of the amount bet (which can be up to $10)).
This does not apply to some jackpot wins.

However, in all instances (other than extremely low caps such as 50p/35 pound machines in the UK), the effect of such a cap on the mathematics is utterly negligible.
Capping out in the extremely rare instances of wins of that magnitude makes way less than 0.1 of 1% difference..

The Microgaming slot "5 Reel Drive", one of their early ones, is using short reel strips, but they are weighted. Some calculations and simulations were done that showed that playing different numbers of paylines made the payback different. The variation was between 88% and 96% if I can remember, with 96% being from playing all 9 lines, and playing 5 lines being the worst. Further, individual paylines paid out more than 100%, but the software does not allow individual lines to be selected.

Re combination layout making a difference to overall RTP:
With all of the games we produce for both markets (net and land-based) a full cycle test is run at min lines, multiple lines and max lines to ensure that there is actually nil difference (or within 0.1%) between total theoreticaly single-line combinational maths and the actual result.
This is also a requirement with most government testing authorities.

It's possible that a game like the as you say in the MG example, there is a very, very short game cycle (total number of possible combinations), and a reel strip layout that makes some difference, but I'd be surprised if it was that high...can't rule it out though!
At any rate I can't think of a single game that I've designed (and we're clocking 300 in the current company and over 800 in total, albeit not all deployed) that would have a significant variance based on line distribution and reel strip layout.

Since RTG slots have some kind of weighting to match the operator settings, it is possible that strategy could result in better value from the game.

Re reel strip weighting:
It's extremely rare to have reel strips that are exactly the same as one another.
Weighting (having different numbers of particular symbols on different reels) is necessary to balance game RTP, hit rates, feature hit rates and so forth.

The main example I can think of in relation to non-weighted strips were some of the old stepper (mechanical slots), but even these evolved to have the same number of total symbols on a strip, but different weighting of them (eg: all 5 reels might have 30 total symbols, but there is difference between the distribution of higher paying symbols and lower paying).

There's nothing sinaster in doing this, however I tend to find that unless required due to a bizarre jurisdictional requirement, it's best to have varied length of each reel strip in order to achieve a more playable game.

Yes, it is the ability of RTG operators to weight the slot games to give payouts between 93% and 97%.

The important thing to note here is that I have never come across a net or internet system that would allow individual operators to have control over RTP on the fly (mind you, I've only ever dealt with reputable systems so I'm sure there's some software teams out there that directly run casinos and probably have dodgy functionals like this).
In reputable cases, however, it would be crazy to have this form of control.
Hiking back to Australian land-based as another example, operators can only change their average RTP settings once a month.
As with both internet and land-based systems that I know of, operators can only select between available RTP settings (eg: between 95% and 97.5%).

There are exceptions, but again they're jurisdictional in nature.
UK AWP machines, for instance, are non-random in certain instances.
They have a requirement to have a "reactive" component to their random calculations.
Before any given spin these machines test to see whether RTP over a given cycle or timed period (such as previous 30 days) is currently running high or running low by a certain degree (for instance, higher or lower than 3% of expected average RTP).
If it's running low, it awards a series of top prizes (in these cases 35 pounds - though soon to shift to 50 shhh) in order to bring RTP back into line...so a player may hit 4 or 5 top prizes literally in succession.
This is why players develop strategies in these markets to throw away (through voiding reel nudges that are part of these games) small wins in order to decrease overall RTP over a period.

Conversely, if it's running high, the machine enters a cycle of "sorry buddy, no way in hell are you getting any form of prize" until RTP has fallen back into line.

Haven't come across this function in the net providers I've dealt with though.

...yet leaves in place the really crappy bonus rounds that pay zero.

I hate it when that happens! :cool:
The effect of randomness I suppose...but you'd have to be pretty unlucky to get nothing from a free game series...and personally I'd never design a game that had an instance win bonus round that couldn't yield a win!

Da Dog
 
Thanks dogboy,
The weighting I am referring to is not reel strip layout as this is perfectly normal as you say to increase gameplay and have lower paying symbols.
What I am saying is that these slots play very much like AWP games and the wild and scatter symbols will go AWOL over long periods after a significant win.
Ronin on RTG is an excellent example as the scatter symbol also doubles for the wild symbol and so makes this weighting even more apparent.
As far as I know VWM has never stated that this dynamic weighting exists but I am 100% certain it does.
Please feel free to try these games at lowest stakes and I am sure you will see what I mean.
I can not say for a fact that their (RTG) payouts can be altered by individual operators but my experience tells me this the case.

With all of the games we produce for both markets (net and land-based) a full cycle test is run at min lines, multiple lines and max lines to ensure that there is actually nil difference (or within 0.1%) between total theoreticaly single-line combinational maths and the actual result.
This is also a requirement with most government testing authorities.


As an amateur slots designer I am not sure what this means.
I expect a full cycle test would run through every possible line combination using dimensioned arrays and record the results in a database?
Surely this kind of test is infallable so where does the theory come in?
I am obviously missing something or is the theory just manual calculations?

Thanks for taking the time to write such informative posts.:thumbsup:
 
Thanks dogboy,
The weighting I am referring to is not reel strip layout as this is perfectly normal as you say to increase gameplay and have lower paying symbols.
What I am saying is that these slots play very much like AWP games and the wild and scatter symbols will go AWOL over long periods after a significant win.
Ronin on RTG is an excellent example as the scatter symbol also doubles for the wild symbol and so makes this weighting even more apparent.
As far as I know VWM has never stated that this dynamic weighting exists but I am 100% certain it does.
Please feel free to try these games at lowest stakes and I am sure you will see what I mean.
I can not say for a fact that their (RTG) payouts can be altered by individual operators but my experience tells me this the case.:


Heya Rusty,

I hate to say "trust me"...but "trust me", RTG's software doesn't use any form of reactive component that's designed to switch a game's pays off after a winning run and as for an operator kill switch, just ain't the case (and I designed Ronin ;))


With all of the games we produce for both markets (net and land-based) a full cycle test is run at min lines, multiple lines and max lines to ensure that there is actually nil difference (or within 0.1%) between total theoreticaly single-line combinational maths and the actual result.
This is also a requirement with most government testing authorities.


As an amateur slots designer I am not sure what this means.
I expect a full cycle test would run through every possible line combination using dimensioned arrays and record the results in a database?
Surely this kind of test is infallable so where does the theory come in?
I am obviously missing something or is the theory just manual calculations?:

Yup, theoretical calculations are somewhat different to running spin tests, and you've hit it on the head - it's the manual calcs.

In short, most game designers will use something like excel to calculate the majority of the simple combination maths that lie at the heart of the game (or write a program to allow easy input of such which is translated into something like Excel).

These calculations are the mathematics for single line return from the game, typically broken up into pays from standard games (base game pays), pays from features (such as free games) and pays from jackpots or other bonuses.

Some calculations can be somewhat trickier, where for example one or more reels may be held in particular circumstances with other reels re-spinning. If that can lead to further re-spins or freaky events it's usual to go straight to programming to calculate theoretical return.

To verify this initial set of calculations the whole game is then tested over a given number of spins, or in some cases it is put through it's cycle or more.
It's always good to calculate in multiple ways to rule out errors, and always good to have a seperate QA team so that the task is being looked at with alternate eyes.

Most industry producers put through 10 million+++ spins prior to go lives (or government submissions), so it's pretty easy to see any glitches by that stage.

On another note while it works mathematically it doesn't guarantee a hit game :eek2:
Even with extensive playtesting not every game's going to rock people's boats.
The pressure is higher in the land-based markets, while on the net it's often a case of having a fairly broad range to cater to many tastes.

Hope it helps

Da Dog
 
Heya Rusty,

I hate to say "trust me"...but "trust me", RTG's software doesn't use any form of reactive component that's designed to switch a game's pays off after a winning run and as for an operator kill switch, just ain't the case (and I designed Ronin ;))

Since you designed Ronin, perhaps you could tell us what exactly happens to make it 95% at one RTG casino, and 97% at another.

It has been revealed recently that it is not the operator that can make these changes, but that they have to ask RTG to do them, and are only allowed to do this a certain number of times in a given period.

The reel strips on slots such as Ronin (and the other RTG slots) seem rather odd compared with MG. With MG, it has been possible to construct accurate reelstrips by observation, yet with RTG slots this has seemed impossible, as it looks like the symbols are not fixed, but are dynamically added as the reel spins each time - which gives rise to all the conspiracy theories about operators being able to fiddle with the payouts, and also the suspicion as to why the wilds and scatters go AWOL at times over many spins - they look like they have simply been removed from the reels!
 
Since you designed Ronin, perhaps you could tell us what exactly happens to make it 95% at one RTG casino, and 97% at another.

Yeah I've often wondered that. Is it the number of specific symbols on a strip that changes?

Also, the random jackpot. Best guesses here in the past have suggested it depends on bet size. So betting at $5 gives you 5 times as many chances as betting at $1 a spin. Would that be about right?
 
Since you designed Ronin, perhaps you could tell us what exactly happens to make it 95% at one RTG casino, and 97% at another.

It has been revealed recently that it is not the operator that can make these changes, but that they have to ask RTG to do them, and are only allowed to do this a certain number of times in a given period.

Heya,

Well I think you just answered the question yourself ;)

If you're asking about how a game is made into different RTP variations such as 95 versus 97.5 I'll answer in general terms, as I'm somewhat reluctant to public disclose which mechanisms are used in particular games:

1) Typically reel strip adjustments are made between one variation and another (eg: a 9 might change to a substitute on a reel, leading to extra percentage in both main and free games), and/or
2) Reel strips may be altered (improved, they are never made worse in any game I've ever been involved in) during feature sequences only, and/or
3) Occasionally reel strips may be shortened (very slightly), in order to make combinations more likely and, more importantly, features more likely. However it is minimal in terms of changes, such as shifting from a 1 in 130 hit rate to 1 in 128, and/or
4) In instances where feature events occur probability schedules may be adjusted, such as picks that award prizes or probability schedules that award a varied number of free games. So for higher RTPs these might be adjusted up.

The reel strips on slots such as Ronin (and the other RTG slots) seem rather odd compared with MG. With MG, it has been possible to construct accurate reelstrips by observation, yet with RTG slots this has seemed impossible, as it looks like the symbols are not fixed, but are dynamically added as the reel spins each time - which gives rise to all the conspiracy theories about operators being able to fiddle with the payouts, and also the suspicion as to why the wilds and scatters go AWOL at times over many spins - they look like they have simply been removed from the reels!

I'm surprised that you'd be unable to derive a substantial idea as to reel strip distribution if you spent a lot of time analysing different reel stop positions.

There are systems I have worked with in the past that have a probability schedule that determines reel strip layout in a dynamic fashion.
Personally I think these systems leave a lot to be desired, so it's fortunate that RTG is not one of them :thumbsup:

Da Dog
 
Yeah I've often wondered that. Is it the number of specific symbols on a strip that changes?

Also, the random jackpot. Best guesses here in the past have suggested it depends on bet size. So betting at $5 gives you 5 times as many chances as betting at $1 a spin. Would that be about right?

Heya,

In relation to the random jackpots you're correct.
All the calculations are based on a bet size of say, $1, for ease of calculation (though the mark is irrelevant because the trigger probability is simply relative).

A bet of 1c would have 1/100 of the standard trigger chance, while a bet of $5 would have 5 times the standard level.
As of late this year RTG games using random jackpots will identify (in rules art) maximum total jackpot component of RTP as no more than 1.5% (this includes both the increment value and the reset value)

It's actually lower than this but 1.5 is a nice round number

Da Dog
 
Thanks again Dogboy it is great to have someone with inside technical knowledge posting on these boards.

2) Reel strips may be altered (improved, they are never made worse in any game I've ever been involved in) during feature sequences only, and/or


I am afraid to say that removing the feature and wild symbol from reel One (Ronin example) occurs during normal play and never improved things for me :rolleyes:
I guess your response would be that this does not happen and you may be very sincere in this assertion but anyone who has played this slot enough and has even limited knowledge of how these games function will have noticed spells of 100 spins or more without even seeing the Ronin symbol in view and indeed it does seem to disappear even in the spin animation.
This occurs much too frequently to be put down to variance and what are the chances of the Ronin symbol not appearing anywhere in view for 100 spins or more, phenomenal I am sure.
I always found that odd as it is not difficult to animate a reel strip unless you want to alter it dynamically.
I am just very curious as to why there would be the need to have this level of control over a random slot?
Why is it not possible to just design a slot that has no memory a 95% payout, is completely random, has static symbols and does NOT have predetermined feature results?
What are the casinos afraid of?

If I am deciphering points 2 and 3 correctly you are also stating that re-triggers may be made more likely during some free spin rounds and this would certainly seem to be the case.
On the face of it that sounds wonderful but since there is a lot evidence that suggests the bonus round results are predetermined it becomes less so.
I do not want an artificial (simulated) roller coaster ride I want to jump out of the plane and pray my chute opens while in free-fall.

It is my guess that Casinos want a guaranteed First Year profit (a level of control) and software that will deliver this, one thing is for sure that neither RTG or MG software would pass UK gambling commission regulations in their current guise.
I do not accept what is often assumed on these boards that the software providers lay down the law to Casinos on RTP.
Common sense tells me that if I am buying a product the seller will not demand I have a certain colour(cursed US spell checker the word is COLOUR), size and model. If they did I would surely take my business elsewhere.

Please do not take any of what I say as a personal attack because I value your technical knowledge greatly.
I am simply raising some familiar issues of the regular slots player......and since you are here;)

Thanks again for your very informative posts.
 
Heya,

In relation to the random jackpots you're correct.
All the calculations are based on a bet size of say, $1, for ease of calculation (though the mark is irrelevant because the trigger probability is simply relative).

A bet of 1c would have 1/100 of the standard trigger chance, while a bet of $5 would have 5 times the standard level.
As of late this year RTG games using random jackpots will identify (in rules art) maximum total jackpot component of RTP as no more than 1.5% (this includes both the increment value and the reset value)

It's actually lower than this but 1.5 is a nice round number

Da Dog

Good answers:thumbsup:

These questions have been discussed and theorised for some time. I now have another follow-on question.

If the RTP component for the Random Jackpots cannot exceed 1.5, how does this fit with what players have reported seeing at Rushmore, which is also RTG.

Here, the Random Jackpots fly far, far, higher than at any RTG casino, and rise faster.

Rising faster can simply be explained by more money being played through the machine than at other RTG casinos, but there are two other points.

Given that:-

All the calculations are based on a bet size of say, $1, for ease of calculation (though the mark is irrelevant because the trigger probability is simply relative).

A bet of 1c would have 1/100 of the standard trigger chance, while a bet of $5 would have 5 times the standard level.


How can the Rushmore jackpots survive more "standard trigger chances" before being won than at any other RTG casino? This contradicts what has so far been explained about how Random Jackpots, RTP contributions, and standard trigger chances work.

On top of this, there is the matter of them being won, and then reappearing at $5000 reset value, not $1000. Whatever proportion of RTP contributes towards the reset, Rushmore are using 5x. If individual operators cannot alter these RTP components, what is going on here with this REPUTABLE RTG casino. They seem to have software options that have not been seen in use at any other RTG.
 
My guess would be that they link more slots together for the RJ than some other RTG's
I think the Casino has the option of how many slots to link for a RJ.
If this is correct it would also give the illusion of them being won less often and explain why they go up so quickly.
Dogboy over to you.
 
I am afraid to say that removing the feature and wild symbol from reel One (Ronin example) occurs during normal play and never improved things for me :rolleyes:
I guess your response would be that this does not happen and you may be very sincere in this assertion but anyone who has played this slot enough and has even limited knowledge of how these games function will have noticed spells of 100 spins or more without even seeing the Ronin symbol in view and indeed it does seem to disappear even in the spin animation.
This occurs much too frequently to be put down to variance and what are the chances of the Ronin symbol not appearing anywhere in view for 100 spins or more, phenomenal I am sure.

Heya Rusty,

100 spinds with no Ronin symbols in view?
On all reels?
I gather this is in real money mode?
And happens on all casinos? (I ask this last one not due to any operator ability to set game play attributes, but in response to the quote about first year profit.)
And only seems to occur on Ronin?


I always found that odd as it is not difficult to animate a reel strip unless you want to alter it dynamically.
I am just very curious as to why there would be the need to have this level of control over a random slot?
Why is it not possible to just design a slot that has no memory a 95% payout, is completely random, has static symbols and does NOT have predetermined feature results?
What are the casinos afraid of?

The games are designed as any normal land-based slot.
They have a fixed (by that I mean static and not dynamic per spin) reel strip (which we often improve during feature sequences) and definitely is not using pre-determined features (canned results).
Casinos often lose on several of the slots in any given month, which would be impossible if it was a pre-determined scenario.


If I am deciphering points 2 and 3 correctly you are also stating that re-triggers may be made more likely during some free spin rounds and this would certainly seem to be the case.
On the face of it that sounds wonderful but since there is a lot evidence that suggests the bonus round results are predetermined it becomes less so.
I do not want an artificial (simulated) roller coaster ride I want to jump out of the plane and pray my chute opens while in free-fall.

Well I agree that a free game or re-spin feature result that is determined at the outset would suck, but that's not how the games are designed, or implemented.
We engage in real money play in test...a lot...and we haven't experienced 100 spins without wilds or scatters...and I somehow doubt there are two sets of software running.

It is my guess that Casinos want a guaranteed First Year profit (a level of control) and software that will deliver this, one thing is for sure that neither RTG or MG software would pass UK gambling commission regulations in their current guise.

Actually, you'd be amazed at what would pass UK legislation :cool:
We have our games in numerous Talarius establishments in the UK (and soon to be with a few other groups).
There are several games out there from our competitors that flout the law entirely in regards to bet and win parameters on single games (beyond their stated ability to link several rounds), but the UK legislators a) do not care and b) do not have an enforcement ability at this time.

I'm sure casinos would love to be able to guarantee first year profit (or profit in any year for that matter!), but other than having an edge via RTP settings all I can say is that there is no turn-off switch.

I do not accept what is often assumed on these boards that the software providers lay down the law to Casinos on RTP.
Common sense tells me that if I am buying a product the seller will not demand I have a certain colour(cursed US spell checker the word is COLOUR), size and model. If they did I would surely take my business elsewhere.

According to that philosophy we'd never be able to sell a game anywhere ;)
We give our buyers some (and in many caes no) level of input into many aspects of the game design process.
The buyer does not always know best.

RTP is determined at the software level.
I'm sure Warren would have loved the ability to adjust things himself when he was around, but that just ain't the case.
I've been telling my parents for 20 years that operators at their local clubs cannot just switch a machine, that's it's just not in the code...still can't convince them so I doubt I'll have much success here, but the same applies.

Thanks again for your very informative posts.

No worries! :thumbsup:
 

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