Signup Bonuses

[Simmo!]

Hi all

Who actually "wins" the money in a signup bonus transaction?

It occurred to me today that while i know some people stand by bonuses, the terms and conditions of playthrough have changed so much, even over the past 12 months, that i wonder if they are now more of a benefit to the casino than the player particulaly when you take into account to claim one, you have to deposit your own money.

Now I dont mean this poll in terms of attracting new players - that's what they were always there for anyway, but the actual "bonus" money itself. Who wins? Are they no longer an incentive?

 

[Lukas85]

you can easily calculate the actuarial expectation so youll allways now whether the bonus actually produces a player advantage or whether the house edge prevailes.

 

[Simmo!]

you can easily calculate the actuarial expectation so youll allways now whether the bonus actually produces a player advantage or whether the house edge prevailes.

This is true to an extent but do you think that players actually bother to do that? Or would a new player come along, slap down $25 get the bonus and lose all $50 in general because of the often tough WR Lukas?

 

[nafanny29]

Good point Simmo. That has happened to me many times

I think that a casino has to have some sort of sign up incentive as the competition is huge at the moment.

Regular loyalty bonuses are important but they should be more "comp" related than the present form of an accross the board monthly bonus. This would reward the players who gamble big for their action, rather than all the vultures (like me )

 

[Black21Jack]

Bonuses are the worst thing a player can do when playing in an online casino. I have made way more money playing with my money than I would ever have if I had to lock my money into wager requirements, which I would most likely lose it having to play it so much. Not only do they have ridiculous wagering requirements which gives the casino a better chance at recovering the money, a lot of casinos also have added stipulations that Blackjack does not count, and that if they consider the play as non risk wagers they can void the bonus and any winnings made with it. Anyone with a brain can look at that and see that bonuses are a guaranteed way for the casino to make money from you, and that if by chance you do make money with it they have avenues to make it so that the winnings are void. Casinos want you to claim the bonus, it removes risk. I even had emails stating that they deposited free chips in my account. There is nothing in the email stating that I should read terms for these free chips, so when I go to their website and search for a while, finally finding the T&C's for the free chips it states the wager requirements and then way down at the bottom in very small print it says that I may use the free chips to enjoy any game in the casino but I cannot make a withdrawal until I have met the wagering requirements in their slot products. Bonuses are a crock, and they are for the benefit of the casino, not the player no matter what the math men say about increasing the odds in the players favor. I voted to reflect this. I know I will have a furry of loyal bonus 'hunters' that will say they have made thousands of dollars over the years collecting bonuses. To them I ask, have you ever had any problems, lock outs, voids etc. over the years when collecting these bonuses?

 

[jetset]

If you take the term "For the benefit of the casinos" literally, then the objective of giving sign-up bonuses is ultimately for the casino's benefit - it's intended to attract players and increase business over time.

The quality casinos here for the long haul will then hope to hold on to that player to get maximum client lifetime value for their not inconsiderable investment in acquiring him or her. The bad guys don't have that much vision and are out for the quick buck through dud softwares and generally dishonest activity.

Ergo, stay the hell away from proven bad casinos.

I can never understand a business strategy of spending heavily on getting a player only to dump him or her on dodgy grounds, thus throwing the acquisition costs down the tube.

Having attracted a player (and this really depends on the quality of the management) it's up to the casino to try and keep those players on board with loyalty or re-up incentives and generally good treatment. That's why the casinos are so sensitive about hit and run players.

From there on perceptions of bonus abuse diverge depending on your perspective. Speaking generally, casinos feel hard done by when the player takes everything on offer and doesn't give much back, and the players think the casinos are dogs when they (usually the lower quality outfits) pull any one of the myriad tricks we have all seen on the message boards over the years to either avoid paying winnings or bonuses before dumping a player.

I still believe that the casino makes the terms and conditions and, short of fraud by way of multiple accounts, false IDs etc etc on the part of the player, should stand by them when a player is accepted and plays. If they then want to dump the player, they should first settle up what they owe him or her. After that it's their right of admission and I doubt that they would be condemned for paid-up lockouts. And don't forget that it is often the casino that emails the player with the incentive.

The fact that so many casinos are guilty of player-abuse with their bonus disqualifications and lockouts illustrates how many bum operations there are imo.

But there are many professional and honest operations too who have few hassles over many millions of transactions every month. The trick is to find them!

 

[mitch]

If you take the term "For the benefit of the casinos" literally, then the objective of giving sign-up bonuses is ultimately for the casino's benefit - it's intended to attract players and increase business over time.

Totally agree with your post Jetset.

Casinos bonus policy works perfectly with me. I only sign up to casinos that offer decent bonuses and not to others.

If that casino looks after me subsequently, doesn't hassle me over payouts, acknowledges receipt of my e-mails when I ask them to, greases my palm occasionally with further offers then I stick with them.

If casinos act entirely the opposite to this then they lose my custom pretty quickly.

It's called competition and as long as the playing community deliver their business only to the 'good guys' then we should continue to enjoy decent offers and decent service for the forseeable future.

Mitch

 

[Simmo!]

If you take the term "For the benefit of the casinos" literally, then the objective of giving sign-up bonuses is ultimately for the casino's benefit - it's intended to attract players and increase business over time.

yes i agree and hence the acknowledgement to that in the original post but i feel now that the bonuses are so heavily weighted against the player in many instances that the lure of the bonus is decreasing constantly. To a point where the majority of players may well feel they are more of an obstacle than a bonus.

 

[KasinoKing]

I know I will have a furry of loyal bonus 'hunters' that will say they have made thousands of dollars over the years collecting bonuses. To them I ask, have you ever had any problems, lock outs, voids etc. over the years when collecting these bonuses?

No I haven't.

Otherwise I'm with Mitch!

PS. I voted 'mainly the player' because in my case that's definitely true!

 

[jetset]

QUOTE ...that the lure of the bonus is decreasing constantly. To a point where the majority of players may well feel they are more of an obstacle than a bonus. UNQUOTE

Good point. T&C's are become so complicated now that increasingly it is the experienced players who can best walk the bonus hunting tight rope with success. Many other less savvy players get burned and it doesn't do anybody any good.

Bonus issues seem to be the main dispute area between players and casinos, but the practice is now so entrenched that despite predictions years ago that it would fade away, it is still alive and well and pulling in players.

 

[bpb]

Bonuses are a crock, and they are for the benefit of the casino, not the player no matter what the math men say about increasing the odds in the players favor. I voted to reflect this. I know I will have a furry of loyal bonus 'hunters' that will say they have made thousands of dollars over the years collecting bonuses. To them I ask, have you ever had any problems, lock outs, voids etc. over the years when collecting these bonuses?

Yeah, Warren Cloud's group denied me my winnings and just returned my deposit.

Overall: Net winnings from bonuses since April 2004 +~$13,000
Total Losses from being labelled an advantage player -$75

Anyone with a brain can look at that and see that bonuses are a guaranteed way for the casino to make money from you

I guess I don't have a brain then.

 

[KasinoKing]

I guess I don't have a brain then.

WTG!

 

[Black21Jack]

Overall: Net winnings from bonuses since April 2004 +~$13,000
Total Losses from being labelled an advantage player -$75

Total balance in casinos since April 2004: $3000.00
Total bonus money claimed since April 2004: $0.00
Total money withdrawn since April 2004: $74208.00
Total balance currently in online casinos: $3000.00
Total money lost since April 2004: $0.00

No wager requirements, able to withdraw immediately, no risk.

 

[Vesuvio]

B21J,

Good for you if you really have some way of defying the odds and winning risk free at casinos without bonuses (though the method you once outlined to me certainly wasn't risk free)... but why attack bonus hunters? It's a guaranteed way of making money without too much effort. There are things to look out for, but it's much more straightforward than you seem to think. As I mentioned on another thread I've yet to fail to be paid by a casino after playing at over 200, so there's no point focussing on the horror stories - a few bans here or there make no difference. It's a way of winning without needing luck - I'm still convinced people playing systems (unless exploiting rigged software) rely on luck, but lets not turn this thread into another system thread.

As to the poll - I didn't respond because it lumps all players together. Of course the casinos aim to profit from bonuses & no doubt do unless they're incompetent. Bonus hunters who select offers with the odds in their favour also profit. Casual players unfortunately have less chance than ever of winning if they accept a bonus - but it may extend their playing time & most would probably lose their deposits anyway, so from an 'entertainment' perspective perhaps even bonuses with ridiculous terms aren't so bad...

 

[Black21Jack]

I don't mean it as an attack on anyone. Its just that everyday I read the casino complaints section, I see titles like 'warning do not play xxx casino, they do not pay' and things like this I always know that it involves a bonus. 99% of all complaints from that section are bonus related. I posted my opinion on the original question. Oh and by the way the method I was doing before that I explained to you was working fine, maybe not risk free but I have retired from RTG's and took out my money. I have a totally different method now.

 

[mitch]

Total balance in casinos since April 2004: $3000.00
Total bonus money claimed since April 2004: $0.00
Total money withdrawn since April 2004: $74208.00
Total balance currently in online casinos: $3000.00
Total money lost since April 2004: $0.00

No wager requirements, able to withdraw immediately, no risk.

So are you saying :-

1 - You have found a way to turn a negative expectation game into a positive expectation one by use of money management contrary to all accepted theories of probability? Or -

2 - That you have 'cracked' the casinos software or are cheating in some other way.
( If either of the above why are you not making millions from the casinos, do you just feel sorry for them?) Or -

3 - Are you just a lucky bleeder. Or-

4 - Are these just statements to be viewed in the same light as Bethugs
and his Hood 3000 system. (pass the bucket Maude )

So which one is it Black21Jack?

Mitch

"win don't gamble"

 

[Black21Jack]

I am not saying anything, and I am not turning this into a 'system' discussion, nor would I ever reveal to anyone how I gamble. Someone posted how much they made off of bonuses, and when they made that money they had to have their money tied in to wager requirements and all that stuff. I posted how much I have made since the same date, no wager requirements, no BS, being able to withdraw when I want. As far as what you said I have never cheated, or ripped anyone or anything off in my life. I follow all casino rules, have never had more than one account at a casino, and I do not claim bonuses so the casino does not have anything to hold me to or accuse me of cheating in any way. That is the main reason I don't claim them, I do not need the measly $20 - $100 bonuses to make money, I make it off of my own money and I can make my withdrawals when I need to.

 

[Vesuvio]

I don't mean it as an attack on anyone. Its just that everyday I read the casino coplaints section, I see titles like 'warning do not play xxx casino, they do not pay' and things like this I always know that it involves a bonus. 99% of all complaints from that section are bonus related. I posted my opinion on the original question.

Your original post was pretty forthright about bonus hunters, though (not to mention the 'anyone with a brain' comment). It seems to imply they're not telling the truth about how much they earn - and that what the 'math men' predict doesn't work out in practice - but it simply does if you've done more than a handful of offers. It's not like with betting systems where it is quite possible than you can be successful for a long time (even a lifetime) before the long term predictions come true.

I think most warnings about casinos not paying relate to bonuses just because bonuses are the only reason for playing at most casinos (especially the dodgy ones). Experienced bonus hunters always meet the terms and conditions and only rogue casinos then fail to pay. There's not much point us comparing figures (as luck & big wins are such a part of it), but the earnings very easily justify some occasional hassle.

 

[Slotster!]

That's a lovely income there B21J! I've definitely lost more than I've won I reckon, but I'm reasonably new to the whole online casino thing anyway. I guess I'm a sucker for the potential of a big hit from what appears to be a small outlay. With blackjack and the like, it's a patience thing. Outside of real land based casinos, blackjack doesn't give me the same buzz.

 

[KasinoKing]

I'm with Mitch again! (We're not having a relationship, or anything! )
I'm not calling you a liar B21J, but I do find your figures extremely hard to believe because you're beating all the odds into a tiny lump of insignificant puss!
Is all your profit made playing just Blackjack only?
Please can you tell the rest of us your magic secret? :notworthy

 

[Astrolucky]

I don't take Bonuses

The first time I played one of these internet casinos and won $1500 on a slot, I was really shocked that they told me to wager 15 times the bonus to collect my winnings. I felt they were trying to get away without paying me. Then I found out that all the casino's were doing this. I stay away from the bonuses. It's not worth it....I think the only casino that does not pull this bonus hype thing is at three diamonds casino...yet I don't think they give bonuses there anyways. Their clerk on the phone (3Diamonds) told me they have 120,000 players yet I wonder if that's the truth? I wish I could see in truth how many members these casinos actually have because they need lots of members to afford the payouts. I wonder how many mom and pop operations are out there where they buy the microgaming software and then get a website and collect the money without the funds to pay off the big winners. Or they could have their slots set on your password so you can only win so much before you can win again?

 

[seanjohn]

Total money withdrawn since April 2004: $74208.00
Total money lost since April 2004: $0.00

...no risk.

OMFG!! This got to be the biggest dose of bull I have ever heard in my life!

Those of you who believe it, raise you hand!!

I guess me, Mitch and KasinoKing really shouldn't argue with you anymore since you are so...em...smart?

 

[nafanny29]

OMFG!! This got to be the biggest dose of bull I have ever heard in my life!

Those of you who believe it, raise you hand!!

I guess me, Mitch and KasinoKing really shouldn't argue with you anymore since you are so...em...smart?

IMHO I believe Black21Jack as he doesnt post bragging about winning normally and only put the origional $71000 to make a point.

I am of the opinion that nearly all internet gaming is not truely random (Yes rigged). Even on major software like crypto and boss something about the gameplay just does feel totally random IMHO.

If that is the case then there will always be ways to exploit that if one is smart enough.

Over a ten year period I won over 100000 on UK pub fruit machines and they are supposed to pay back about 86%.

My point being that its mathamatically impossible to beat a live and fair game of blackjack(counting excluded) or craps etc.. But when the cards and dice are chosen by an RNG and a program there is a chance that it is either flawed in some way, or the casino has rigged it, and thus maybe being able to exploit it.

I would have a bet at 9 to 1 that these guys have found something and they are ROFL laughing at our doubting. I used to tell people I win 500 in 1 day driving up and down the M1 and they thought I was mad until I showed then all the 1 coins



I wish I could figure out what old Black21Jack has (If he has )

 

[Vesuvio]

My point being that its mathamatically impossible to beat a live and fair game of blackjack(counting excluded) or craps etc.. But when the cards and dice are chosen by an RNG and a program there is a chance that it is either flawed in some way, or the casino has rigged it, and thus maybe being able to exploit it.

I agree with this (and almost all, if not all, on-line casinos being rigged in one way or another) - the only thing is that Bethug and B21J insist that their systems work for land-based casinos as well. If they just said it was for on-line casinos then I might have my doubts, but certainly couldn't rule it out.

Anyway, I don't have any reason to doubt B21J's winnings, though if you've won at all there's no need to post the loss of $0!

 

[Black21Jack]

I agree with this (and almost all, if not all, on-line casinos being rigged in one way or another) - the only thing is that Bethug and B21J insist that their systems work for land-based casinos as well. If they just said it was for on-line casinos then I might have my doubts, but certainly couldn't rule it out.

Anyway, I don't have any reason to doubt B21J's winnings, though if you've won at all there's no need to post the loss of $0!

I hate when people put me together with other people just because we have said similar thing such as winning in a casino. When did I say that I could do it at a land based casino? When I first started I wondered if it would work at a land based, but upon testing at Casino Niagara in Niagara Falls it put that to rest. I don't think I ever said whether it is just online or online and land based so I will say it now, I only play online. The reason I said that I have lost $0 was to show that my winnings were all profit. When the other player posted his winnings he did not say how much he had dumped into the casino to get that money. As I stated, I had total deposits of $3000.00 as of April 2004 with the total withdrawn amount, no money given back to the casino. It was just to show that my winnings were profit. You could state that you have won $100000 in online casinos over the last year. Ok but that does not show whether you have 'beaten the house' You have to show how much you have deposited and how much you have lost to the casino. If you had dumped $100000 into the casinos over the year and have cashed out $100000 leaving you account balances at $0 then you have broken even; no profit and no loss. I would like to add that I never wanted to trurn this inot a systems discussion. My original post was in response to my opinion on bonuses and that I made more money without bonuses than I could ever have with bonuses. I never usually post my winnings in this forum.