Rogue or legit? Casinos "re-adjust" odds in their favor when players win.

[Jockohomo]

I have an outstanding dispute with a casino (Grand Fortune). They summarily refused to pay winnings ($10,000!), closed my account, and accused me of fraud, citing a $100 "disputed transaction" at another RTG casino in 2012. I have no way of responding to this allegation, since I have never been contacted by any RTG casino about such a transaction. In fact, this is the very first I've ever heard about any "disputed transaction." Prior to my withdrawal request at Grand Fortune, I'd never heard about it at all. Stranger still, Grand Fortune will not reveal even the name of this other casino -- or any other details about this small, disputed transaction -- that supposedly makes me a fraud risk to their casino. FYI, I have never committed fraud against Grand Fortune or any other RTG casino.

But enough about my problems. What I have noticed in dealing with this matter is how many other, similar "disputes" there are. Here on Casinomeister (the best!) and at other sites like AskGamblers, etc, there are a troubling number of player grievances concerning casinos who engage in the roguish practice of denying payment of fair winnings to players based on the most dubious of pretexts. In few of these cases has the player actually violated any of the casino's T&Cs. By and large, these complaints involve casinos refusing payment based on post-hoc (i.e., post-win) accusations of "fraud" or "patterns of play" and "validation delays" (sometimes lasting years) that the casino shoehorns into their self-serving, catchall T&C that "any decision made by the casino shall be final." Worst of all is the casino acting unilaterally and arbitrarily to confiscate winnings, shut down the player account, and force a "refund" on a player. This last strategy appears to give the casino a false sense that they acted virtuously and fairly, when in fact they have merely appointed themselves -- with no due process -- judge, jury, and sole arbiter/executioner. These casinos know exactly what they are doing by attempting to sever all ties with the disputant. They are acting solely in their own monied interest by closing all channels of communication with the player. After all, refunding a few hundred dollars is a mere drop in the ocean compared to thousands in fair winnings. Even so, these casinos complain about how such never-requested refunds “cost [them] money and make [them] look bad with processors.” The irony is palpable.

My objection to this rogue behavior is simple: while the casinos hide behind baseless accusations of fraud and abuse, they themselves are committing fraud and abuse against players. Not only is this hypocritical, but it undermines the very nature of casino gaming. To wit, when a casino accepts money from a player in a fair-money wager, it is implicit -- and is made by the casino to appear 100% explicit -- that the casino will honor the outcome of said wager. The casino (or "house") has a known advantage over the player in casino games, but that advantage -- aka "the odds" -- is known to all parties. If AFTER a player wins fairly (e.g., no cheating or demonstrable pattern of abuse), the house -- for whatever reason -- adjusts the odds in their favor (by refusing to pay, making unsubstantiated claims of fraud or abuse, or by invoking new and previously unwritten T&Cs), the house is, in no uncertain terms, cheating. The house is changing the rules of the game -- it its favor -- after the game has been played.

Obviously, the current state of affairs for US-facing casinos is the Wild West, where anything goes, and players have little recourse no matter how ill-used they are by roguish casinos. I can chalk up my own dispute as a lesson hard won about how slimy and criminal some casinos will act in protection of their immediate interests. I have no doubt that a Casinomeister-accredited casino would have behaved honorably and fairly. Still, I see a pattern of abuse by businesses (casinos who should be paying fair winnings as a cost of doing fair business) who instead shift a BS "burden of proof" onto fair players as a cheaper alternative to playing fair. These rogueish casinos spin sob stories about being "hurt" by malevolent players. But those stories don't add up to the thousands upon thousands that these casinos bilk from fair players. The casino should absolutely protect themselves from those malevolent players, but not by punishing fair players for the abuses of others!

I am curious to know from CM members and staff what they think of these shady dealings. I believe there is a real problem at many casinos -- I will call it "T&C abuse." This is where casinos stand on their vague and utterly skewed (in the casino's favor) "rights" in order to nullify inconvenient fair play so as to remove red ink from their ledgers.

Lastly, what can a player like myself do? How can I protect myself from being railroaded by rogue casinos in future? Grand Fortune claims that "all RTG casinos" share the same information and use the same super-secret player-rating software and service. Then why is it that only Grand Fortune has closed my account and not all RTG casinos? Why is is that other RTG casinos would pay my fair winnings while only Grand Fortune refuses to? As it stands, I have deposited tens of thousands at RTG casinos, but I never will again. The fair casinos on the RTG platform can thank Grand Fortune for their loss of my business. To repeat: I will never deposit at a RTG casino again. I would love to hear from RTG reps and managers how they feel about what I've written here and about how they feel now that Grand Fortune has burned their brand (even if only for one player). Does RTG support Grand Fortune's decision? Grand Fortune makes it sound like RTG is one big happy family, fully in support of Grand Fortune's rogue shenanigans. I suspect otherwise (based on experience and reputation).

Let me know what you think. Thanks!

 

[dionysus]

For every reputable casino out there, there are not-so-reputable ones...just like any business going.
It's rather like....do you buy your Rolex from a Rolex dealer, or from some guy with a flip-table on the corner...a car from a Ferrari/Ford/ enter your car here dealership or the side of the road with a sign reading Fore (sic) Sale?

The key is to choose a reputable casino, and as you pointed out, CM is a great place (to find them).
Grand Fortune, as you can see, is not in the accredited list - Link Outdated / Removed . Stick to those...or barring that, do your research well.
Even then, be sure to read Ts and Cs (after all, you agree to them when playing). If something occurs or comes up 'wonky' - contact a rep here to the casino. If no (satisfactory) resolution, there's the PAB service offered here.

Unfortunately, it's not hard to get screwed - it's a big bad world out there. But luckily, there's here to get you on the right foot.

ps - I'm not sugessting Grand Fortune is good or bad. Have you tried this genteleman? https://www.casinomeister.com/forums/members/38649/

 

[Batman]

Rogue or legit? Casinos "re-adjust" odds in their favor when players win.
The house will always win, no matter what. The casino is the Law. This will never change

First of all, returning the deposit to the player after confiscating a huge win, it's not actually for the casino.
I imagine that you, me, or any other player that would consider being cheated of that amount, would request a Chargeback if the deposit wouldn't be refunded.
That would affect the casino in more than one way, and the players as well*, the Chargeback would be the worst thing that a player can do to an online casino.

And last, but not least, you should always read the casinos's Terms and Conditions first, see if you like and agree to them, check the playthrough requirements on the slots / games you'd like to play at that specific casino, and also, to make sure you'll be paid, make sure the casino will be an accredited one.
Rogue casinos would tend to cheat you of your winnings in any way possible. The accredited casinos WILL eventually pay you (if no terms are breached)
Even if they try some stalling techniques and so forth!

If you are uncertain regarding the terms of a bonus, don't take it.
ALWAYS pay close attention to big bonuses 50% or more - there's almost always a catch there.
If you are not confident and would really like to take a bonus, confirm with support (in writing) all the terms of the bonus.

*Going back to your issue, if you ever had one chargeback, there's a database which would contain that info, and I think it's shared among all operators. If not among all, the same operator would have an evidence of that chargeback.

As Dionysus said, you may check with the rep here and see if you guys can work things out. Having a chargeback on one of their other casinos shouldn't be a huge issue, and if that won't work out, try submitting a PAB (which is free of charge).
I hope everything will work out for you!

 

[horseplayer]

I think the OP gets it regarding reading T&C's and playing at casinos that are not Accredited here, but it seems to me his is an RTG problem.

Does the Meister or Maxd have contacts within RTG?

RTG should not allow a casino using their software to accept deposits from a player that they don't intend to pay.

 

[Batman]

I agree this isn't fair, the info was not towards the OP, it's general, for all New or Old CM members.

I just pointed out that there's a Database where all this info is centralized (the chargebacks).
The chargeback itself shouldn't be a reason for $10,000 to be taken away from the player.

This is why I suggested the OP the same thing Dionysus did: to check with the rep or PAB if the rep is unavailable to solve this for him

 

[vinylweatherman]

If this is a genuine chargeback record, then ALL RTG casinos who use this central service will be able to see it, therefore it's very odd that these other RTG casinos have happily paid winnings.

Given the situation in the US, this may not be a genuine chargeback at all, but a problem with a dodgy payment processor that has caused the casino to lose out on money deposited by players. This might explain the lack of hard data such as which transaction at what casino, which would make it easy for the player to demonstrate whether or not the claim is bogus, an attempt by a rogue to dodge payment of winnings.

Casinos also know that US players will never complain to the authorities about getting ripped off, because they will suffer just as much, if not more, than the rogue casino they complain about.

If a player seeks to prove that they have never made a chargeback at any casino, they just need all their banking records, where any transaction that has been charged back will be shown. It will also be shown in the transaction logs of the casino.

This rogue behaviour is going to backfire on the industry because when it comes to defrauding a rogue business, it is much more morally acceptable to "exact revenge" by giving a rogue business a taste of their own medicine than it is to pick on a reputable business. It's very much like the legend of Robin Hood. He was a criminal, a medieval armed robber, but he is regarded as a hero because he robbed only the corrupt aristocrats who abused their power over ordinary citizens. Had he robbed the poor too, he would be seen as a villain, and people would be cheering on the Sheriff of Nottingham to capture him and throw him in prison.

 

[Jockohomo]

Having a chargeback on one of their other casinos shouldn't be a huge issue, and if that won't work out, try submitting a PAB (which is free of charge).
I hope everything will work out for you!

I don't know what the unnamed "disputed transaction" is exactly, but I assume they think it's a chargeback. Grand Fortune considers this single $100 transaction from another casino in 2012 to be reason enough to close my account and confiscate fair winnings.

Unfortunately, the casino rep here has not replied to me and I already submitted a PAB to no effect.

Thanks for your helpful input!

 

[Jockohomo]

I contacted the casino rep via PM, but never heard back from him. I believe the CM team had the same problem when I submitted my PAB: silence/unresponsiveness from the casino.

I don't know what further recourse I have except to warn players against Grand Fortune with my tale of woe. In the long run, this debacle will likely save me quite a bit of money, since I will not play at RTG casinos (and am wary of all online gaming). Ironically -- or maybe it's poetic justice -- the casinos end up losing a pretty good customer.

Thanks for all the good input!