RNG, Slots, and Thunderstruck II.

[Seventh777]

Am I barking up the wrong tree here or has the introduction of achievements based on hitting every single winning combination, exposed these so called RNG`s for the fraudulent and open to manipulation mechanics that many of us, believe them to be?.

How many of you have played TSII to such an extent that you have 2-3 achievements left to hit, i`ll bet those 2-3 are - 4 & 5 wilds and 5 scatters..yes?, if, as we are led to believe each spin is randomly generated then why is it that these are never hit 1st spin, or half way through the achievement push?, when hitting all the lower achievements ie nines through to aces, was 5 aces the last needed? hell no, in fact when playing TSII the other day at Casino Share for the 1st time, 5 aces was the 1st 5 reel achievement I hit.

Randomness in full affect, and a small but significant test, find yourself a none transparent bag and fill it with 10 red counters, 9 white, 8 blue, 7 yellow, 6 green, 5 purple, 4 black, 3 orange, 2 silver, and 1 gold (colours may vary lol), no peeping, and pull out the counters 1 by 1, do this as many times as you want, until you have picked ten, how many times do you think the silver and gold counters will be picked?

This is imho complete randomness, unless as I openly stated I have this horribly wrong.

5 wilds pays 1000 (not including wild wins ofc )= odds of around 33-1, picking the gold counter 54-1, a lot greater odds, but what`s your money on?.

 

[Dangerous53]

I noticed something yesterday playing TSII that I found interesting. I was checking the stats to see how many spins I had played, and the biggest win showed as 40.50, but I hadn't won that much, yet....

As I was trying to figure out why that amount was there the Big Win bells went off and the win was 40.50. After clearing the stats and watching it on autospin, the wins showed up in the stats before the reels started stopping, almost before they started spinning.

When two bonus symbols dropped on the first two reels, you could tell the third would not drop if you won your bet back, but if it registered no win, you knew it would hit. I watched this for over 100 spins to confirm it, and both times I hit the feature, it didn't show a win. The amount won in the feature spins is the same thing.

This makes me think that the amount you win is pre programmed, and THEN the reels stop to reflect that amount. Makes one wonder about the randomness of the spins.

 

[kujis]

Usually 5 wilds and scatters are achieved last because in my hot opinion there's only one or 2 of those symbols in each reel, while theres at least 4 thors and 10 9s 10s and js.

 

[Deeplay]

I noticed something yesterday playing TSII that I found interesting. I was checking the stats to see how many spins I had played, and the biggest win showed as 40.50, but I hadn't won that much, yet....

As I was trying to figure out why that amount was there the Big Win bells went off and the win was 40.50. After clearing the stats and watching it on autospin, the wins showed up in the stats before the reels started stopping, almost before they started spinning.

When two bonus symbols dropped on the first two reels, you could tell the third would not drop if you won your bet back, but if it registered no win, you knew it would hit. I watched this for over 100 spins to confirm it, and both times I hit the feature, it didn't show a win. The amount won in the feature spins is the same thing.

This makes me think that the amount you win is pre programmed, and THEN the reels stop to reflect that amount. Makes one wonder about the randomness of the spins.

For video slots its all just eye candy the spinning reels , differnt symbols etc. The win Is pre-determined the moment you hit the spin button. The results displayed are as i said just eye candy. The win or loose is not determined during the actuall spinning of the wheels. I have also noticed what you did a few times. Its probably just a clitch as its giving the outcome a second or 2 before the wheels stop spinning.
So when you said quote : "This makes me think that the amount you win is pre programmed"

that is correct from the very second you hit the spin.

 

[Simmo!]

IThis makes me think that the amount you win is pre programmed, and THEN the reels stop to reflect that amount. Makes one wonder about the randomness of the spins.

As Doomed says, that is how video slots work, online or offline. The result is effectively a pre-determined number and the reels are just a pretty way of displaying that number.

Usually 5 wilds and scatters are achieved last because in my hot opinion there's only one or 2 of those symbols in each reel, while theres at least 4 thors and 10 9s 10s and js.

Spot on. They are much, much harder to achieve for obvious reasons.

 

[Seventh777]

Well thx for the answers guys and in laymen terms it sums it all up nicely, if, as stated by two of you that these wins are nigh on guaranteed to be the last 2 wins to land, then it is not 100% RNG is it?.

I will digress and go on further, since the day it was released until roughly 4-5 weeks ago I played TSII constantly, every single deposit I made from £50-£200 I maxed the spin machine at GoWild (£2000 wagered=125 free spins) with various other FS promos relating to TSII i have won in excess of 20,000 FS`s at GoWild alone, this for the 1st 2-3 months playing was easily achieved due to the generous feature rewards (I have more screenshots here than I care to mention, but suffice to say that each screenie ranges in winnings from around £250 to £650 for a £1.50 to £3 bet), I will hasten to add that although I carried on playing upto mid September I did not take any screenshots since early August, for the sole reason being there were no decent wins worthy of taking, also my spin machine returns dropped dramatically and several deposits didn`t even yield the lowest wagering needed of £350 for 20 FS.

I will defy anyone that has played TSII as much as me (11 different casinos) to openly stand up and state that the overall game play from this slot is exactly the same (payout wise) as the day of it`s release, when you get down to two achievements it becomes bankruptcy central..

Some more food for thought on just how random the harder achievements are to hit, until you need two.......

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But just how hard are 4 wilds to hit? my 1st of the two 4 wilds I hit at Golden Lounge within 3 hours of each other

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Notice that I have hit one of the 3 hardest wins before I hit 5 kings and I had hit four wilds twice before this screenie was taken

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But the above was just a run of good luck, it wouldn`t happen again would it?.......

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Yep, it did, I managed to hit the same achievement 3 times in two sessions at two different casinos in two days that I have not hit in over 4 months playing and probably somewhere in the region of £500,000 - £750,000 wagered at another, even though I have hit the much harder to hit... all 5.

Upon release this slot was primed to have a far superior payout as to encourage and finance people going for the achievements, it`s almost as if you needed these to have a shot at 3-4-5 reels in the WildStorm feature....

Oh wait!!!!!!!!!!.

I have had 3 reels once in WildStorm and that was the 1st WS after I reduced achievements to just two needed.

 

[Seventh777]

True randomness in glorious effect, the odds of hitting this are around 1150 - 1 I believe, which in laymen terms = 1 in every 11.5 games with any 3 cards of identical suits, needed for a NRF, just because it`s the hardest hand to hit, it doesn`t mean the RNG God cannot pull one out the bag, does it.

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Footnote:- this was my 1st ever poker play at Lucky Creek, I started with around £4 I won from some FS`s.

 

[zanzibar]

Well thx for the answers guys and in laymen terms it sums it all up nicely, if, as stated by two of you that these wins are nigh on guaranteed to be the last 2 wins to land, then it is not 100% RNG is it?.

No-one said anything about guarantees. All that was said was that the "big" features have less chance of being hit than the "smaller" features. Same as on every other slot ever made.

Independent spins are not related to each other. You are just as (un)likely to hit 5 wilds on your first spin as your 10,000th spin. So you haven't hit a couple of the bigger features? Well that is not surprising seeing as there is a very small chance of them being hit. But just because something is less likely to be hit doesn't mean that you will hit every other smaller feature before that one.

Your screenshots do seem to indicate the randomness of the game - the total opposite of what you are saying. Show me a screenshot with every feature filled except the three 9s and then you might be onto something.

 

[gid88]

ts2 removed ?

Has TS2 been removed from 32red ? It was last night and then i re-installed at the suggestion of the casino...still not there.

 

[gid88]

scratch that - it's back.

 

[est129]

By the way,

What do you win if there is a possibilitty to complete all compinations of acchivements?

 

[De Beuker]

By the way,

What do you win if there is a possibilitty to complete all compinations of acchivements?

A nice screenshot for the collection..

 

[KasinoKing]

It all seems pretty random to me!
I haven't plotted out the reels of TS2 yet, but for comparison the chances of getting 5 Wilds or Scatters in view on TS1 is once in 146,667 spins. I would GUESS that the reel-strips on TS2 are probably a bit longer, so the odds against would be even higher...

Anyway - why can't I hit 4 of those damn Air-Castles???

 

[Pinababy69]

A nice screenshot for the collection..

That's it? You don't actually get anything? LOL....what's the point then...beyond just a gimmick to get people to play more I mean?

I don't play the game. Tried it three or four times max and proceeded to burn through my entire bankroll on minimum bets every single time. Not only that, I never got to see ANY feature. I read you guys talking about Wildstorm this and that, lol.....don't have a clue what you're talking about. This game was probably the biggest letdown of the year for me. Doubt I will ever try it again.

 

[Simmo!]

That's it? You don't actually get anything? LOL....what's the point then...beyond just a gimmick to get people to play more I mean?

Yup...but its actually similar in principle to some land-based slots like Star Trek and LOTR (WMS) where you win medals which don't really mean anything either. Don't really get it myself...all seems a bit pointless.

I don't play the game. Tried it three or four times max and proceeded to burn through my entire bankroll on minimum bets every single time. Not only that, I never got to see ANY feature. I read you guys talking about Wildstorm this and that, lol.....don't have a clue what you're talking about. This game was probably the biggest letdown of the year for me. Doubt I will ever try it again.

Actually I loved it at first, then it dropped off my radar, now it's my 2nd favourite MG slot behind....Thunderstruck lol.

 

[De Beuker]

That's it? You don't actually get anything? LOL....what's the point then...beyond just a gimmick to get people to play more I mean?

I don't play the game. Tried it three or four times max and proceeded to burn through my entire bankroll on minimum bets every single time. Not only that, I never got to see ANY feature. I read you guys talking about Wildstorm this and that, lol.....don't have a clue what you're talking about. This game was probably the biggest letdown of the year for me. Doubt I will ever try it again.

Nope, thats it, a nice view.
Palace Group had a promo that the first player who send in a screenshot with the complete achievement won a 500.- bonus if I remember right.

And I fully agree with you, one of the most boring games I've ever played.
I gave it many chances, played over 2000 spins on it, triggered 3 freespinrounds and 2 wildstorms and never won more than 30x bet.

You didn't miss anything with the wildstorm, it goes like this:
First you think your game has crashed, as the reels keep spinning, than you'll notice a beardy old man crowling on top of the reels.
He always crawls to the right, making reel 5 or reel 4 and 5 wild.
BUT...the sneaky bastard ALSO removes most of the pictures from the remaining reels (and the wilds).
So you'll end up with nothing or something very close to nothing 99% of the time.

 

[Pinababy69]

First you think your game has crashed, as the reels keep spinning, than you'll notice a beardy old man crowling on top of the reels.
He always crawls to the right, making reel 5 or reel 4 and 5 wild.
BUT...the sneaky bastard ALSO removes most of the pictures from the remaining reels (and the wilds).
So you'll end up with nothing or something very close to nothing 99% of the time.

Ha ha ha.....that was priceless DeBeuker. Love the description.

 

[Seventh777]

Some screenshots from May, the 2nd is a £1800 hit, this is what this slot was pretty much like until around the time of the new software update (still haven`t heard any logical explanation as to why these features became worse than useless!!!!!).

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P.S.

As far as achievements go i`m positive I read from some review site pre-release, that you cannot pop all 5 reels in WildStorm unless you have all of them.

 

[Seventh777]

It all seems pretty random to me!
I haven't plotted out the reels of TS2 yet, but for comparison the chances of getting 5 Wilds or Scatters in view on TS1 is once in 146,667 spins. I would GUESS that the reel-strips on TS2 are probably a bit longer, so the odds against would be even higher...

Anyway - why can't I hit 4 of those damn Air-Castles???

That`s Valhalla lol .

 

[KasinoKing]

Some screenshots from May, the 2nd is a £1800 hit, this is what this slot was pretty much like until around the time of the new software update (still haven`t heard any logical explanation as to why these features became worse than useless!!!!!).

I'm confused!
How come you don't have ANY extra wilds showing in ANY of your Loki Bonus shots?

Mine typically look like this (my best yet):-

 

[Simmo!]

As far as achievements go i`m positive I read from some review site pre-release, that you cannot pop all 5 reels in WildStorm unless you have all of them.

That's interesting. I've had some good Wildstorm hits but never more than 2 wild reels. We could find this out probably - KK recently posted a screenie from another forum with all reels wild in Wildstorm. Maybe they could confirm.

 

[Seventh777]

I'm confused!
How come you don't have ANY extra wilds showing in ANY of your Loki Bonus shots?

Mine typically look like this (my best yet):-

I`ve no idea, if I were taking the screenshots just after the feature then it would obviously not show the wild magic symbols, (that`s an awesome hit btw ), but i`m taking the screenies as soon as the wild magic buffs stop???

 

[Seventh777]

That's interesting. I've had some good Wildstorm hits but never more than 2 wild reels. We could find this out probably - KK recently posted a screenie from another forum with all reels wild in Wildstorm. Maybe they could confirm.

I`ve had 1 3 reel wildstorm hit and that was the 1st WS I hit after reducing achievements needed to just two, but it was in a block of 20 free spins I won and paid around £10 for a .30p spin, my best WS is in my best wildstorm thread in the screenshot section and was x9 Odin`s x9 Kings and x9 Queens and equalled roughly x217 bet.

 

[Dangerous53]

Screenshot of achievments so far

Seems all the others I have seen are about the same, I'm just missing better than 3 wilds and the 5 bonus symbols.

 

[Seventh777]

I`m seeing many threads regarding MG slots atm, and remarkably none of them involve a nice hit or a PJP being hit, I think the 50 FS`s on Avalon yielding not one single win just about wraps it up, all their recently released slots give unbelievable wins (even though the average win doesn`t cover 10% of your stake), yet amazingly no one has hit one of these wins!!!!!!!, wakey, wakey guys, we know how good MG slots were, let`s not live on these memories, look at how they`ve become.

 

[Seventh777]

Seems all the others I have seen are about the same, I'm just missing better than 3 wilds and the 5 bonus symbols.

My Ladbrokes TSII, can we see the absolute *randomness* happening here .

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[Simmo!]

Seventh, I think you're getting confused between RNG and Probability LOL. If you buy a lottery ticket every week, how many weeks will it be before you expect to win the $10 million?

 

[Seventh777]

Seventh, I think you're getting confused between RNG and Probability LOL. If you buy a lottery ticket every week, how many weeks will it be before you expect to win the $10 million?

No I am not Simmo, I have wagered in excess of 25,000k at several MG casinos, I think i`m in a prime enough position to know when something is wrong, or like a few others do you believe there is nothing afoot with MG slots when a 50 FS session yields not one single win?, show me an instant when this happened over 6 months ago, and you will hear no more about MGS from me .

If I had bought enough lottery tickets to have pushed the odds in my favour and not won the jackpot, then and only then I would complain, once again I will state, I have more than wagered enough to have at least reduced achievements down to one, I have hit 4 wilds (3 times) and 5 wilds (once) in separate casinos thus proving they are nowhere near as hard to hit as people claim, yet for some unexplainable reason these cannot be hit at the same casino, notice anyone supplying screenshots here of their achievements all have a bare minimum needed of at least two!!!!!!!!.

P.S.

Also Simmo, forget the RNG aspect for a while, and answer me this, what happened to the feature wins payout amounts?.

 

[Simmo!]

Also Simmo, forget the RNG aspect for a while, and answer me this, what happened to the feature wins payout amounts?.

Sorry Seventh, not quite with you on that question?

Take my history on Thunderstruck though. I played it since 2004, hit 5 rams very early on, then 4 years later (millions of spins probably) and never got 5 rams again. Until recently when I got 5 in the free spins at 3x followed by 5 more 2 days later - at the same casino! I've never had 5 wilds either.

Now - I do believe that, like with land-based slots, new games come out at a higher RTP for a while. But once they are are switched down to the 95/96% mark, on Microgaming, I don't believe they are changed again. My personal opinion.

The example you are using to demonstrate this is the Thunderstruck 2 paytable. Let's say there are 20 or 30 of us posters here that play it a lot (probably less than 20 actually) - it's absolutely no surprise whatsoever to me that no-one has the top pays lit up yet.

Regards the no wins in 50 spins thing, well its bound to happen every now and again although hopefully very, very rare. Find someone else that has had that...bet you can't. It's probably about the same odds as hitting a jackpot. Again very rare.

Anyway, we'll always differ on this - it's a fruitless conversation really. You either believe online slots are rigged, or you don't. In Microgaming's case, I don't. There's no definitive proof either way, only pointers. In the long, long history of gambling there always have been - and always will be - both opinions present.

 

[KasinoKing]

That's interesting. I've had some good Wildstorm hits but never more than 2 wild reels. We could find this out probably - KK recently posted a screenie from another forum with all reels wild in Wildstorm. Maybe they could confirm.

The shot is in this thread:
https://www.casinomeister.com/forums/threads/best-wildstorm-wins.40324/

I don't know the poster personally, but I am a moderator at that forum and we don't stand for any BS'ers!
I'm 99.99% sure that is a genuine screenshot.

Like you said, the odds of getting the jackpot on Thunderstruck 1 is very high (actually, once in 3.96 million spins), so I would not be at all surprised if the odds of getting 5 WildStorm wild reels is about the same.
In my 6 years of slots play I've hit that jackpot once (on Spring Break), but I doubt I will ever get it again in my lifetime... I haven't got time for 3.96 million spins!

KK

 

[vinylweatherman]

The shot is in this thread:
https://www.casinomeister.com/forums/threads/best-wildstorm-wins.40324/

I don't know the poster personally, but I am a moderator at that forum and we don't stand for any BS'ers!
I'm 99.99% sure that is a genuine screenshot.

Like you said, the odds of getting the jackpot on Thunderstruck 1 is very high (actually, once in 3.96 million spins), so I would not be at all surprised if the odds of getting 5 WildStorm wild reels is about the same.
In my 6 years of slots play I've hit that jackpot once (on Spring Break), but I doubt I will ever get it again in my lifetime... I haven't got time for 3.96 million spins!

KK

I have NEVER got the Jackpot on any of these clones, however I once had 5 scatters DURING free spins on Spring Break, and if I could count the number of sets of 5 rams I have had on Thunderstruck on my fingers -
I WOULD BE IN A CIRCUS

 

[De Beuker]

I have NEVER got the Jackpot on any of these clones, however I once had 5 scatters DURING free spins on Spring Break, and if I could count the number of sets of 5 rams I have had on Thunderstruck on my fingers -
I WOULD BE IN A CIRCUS

Me too!
But I would be The Man With No Fingers..

 

[Rusty]

I don't know the reel strips for this slot but I can't imagine that 5 scatters should be that hard to hit.
It actually pays less than half of what it pays for 5 Thor's so either the paytable is out of whack or something else is amiss since nobody has hit them but everyone has hit 5 Thor's.

Certainly the frequency with which you can hit the first or the last 2 scatters without triggering a feature seems very improbable to me as it seems to go through unnatural phases of handing these out.

Simmo, I know you are a good sort and I am sure you believe in what you are saying but if you believe the RTP can be altered of MG slots then how do you believe this is done?
Also why do you think that if Casinos were unscrupulous enough to introduce new slots at a higher RTP, than is the intended norm, they would suddenly become paragons of virtue and never alter the RTP again?
I'm not having a go at you but that seems an odd conclusion to come to.

KK if you get the real strips I will do some analysis and see if there is any basis to my concerns. (Other than the paytable being out of whack)

 

[Seventh777]

So, in the nutshell, a few say these slots are completely random, yet you will not hit 5 scatters nor 4-5 wilds until last, as these are the hardest to hit, please explain how this is random??.

Most of us have have been to fete`s/fairs where such prizes as a brand new cars are won on the roll of six sixes, the odds of this happening are 46656 -1, which in laymen terms should leave a nice healthy profit of around 30k -35k once 6 sixes had been hit, but, in so many cases these were hit way before the cost of the car had been recouped, to the extent that anyone doing this fund raiser had to take out insurances, so we can pretty much rule out that in 100% genuine random circumstances the hardest target to achieve will not be the last target to achieve.

 

[Seventh777]

The shot is in this thread:
https://www.casinomeister.com/forums/threads/best-wildstorm-wins.40324/

I don't know the poster personally, but I am a moderator at that forum and we don't stand for any BS'ers!
I'm 99.99% sure that is a genuine screenshot.

Like you said, the odds of getting the jackpot on Thunderstruck 1 is very high (actually, once in 3.96 million spins), so I would not be at all surprised if the odds of getting 5 WildStorm wild reels is about the same.
In my 6 years of slots play I've hit that jackpot once (on Spring Break), but I doubt I will ever get it again in my lifetime... I haven't got time for 3.96 million spins!

KK

Okay KK, from what I can see from that screenshot is that it is from Ladbrokes, so I duly rang Ladbrokes and spoke to Jo (for those of you whom who like that terribly English sexah female voice, I would ring up Ladbrokes and ask to speak to Jo just for that reason lol) and this 5 reel wild storm win cannot be verified, like Jo clearly expressed `As this would have been probably the world`s 1st and only 5 reel WS win it would have pride and place in the winners section`.

So unless I have the incorrect casino for this win it seems all is not as it seems.

 

[woodpecker]

That's an interesting point. So, you're suggesting that the slot pays only once the prize amount has been covered? It can be, but we know that casinos have an established house edge, maybe the “non random number generator” is limited to progressive slot only..

 

[Seventh777]

That's an interesting point. So, you're suggesting that the slot pays only once the prize amount has been covered? It can be, but we know that casinos have an established house edge, maybe the “non random number generator” is limited to progressive slot only..

Yep, that is pretty much how I see it, if a Progressive is hit the winnings are covered by the kitty so the individual casino does not have to suffer the hit, but imagine how many casinos could suffer a 2.4 million coin jackpot at 5p a coin x10 = £1.2 million, seems here we have a bad case of MGS writing cheques their casinos cannot cash.

In the nutshell - It`s nothing to do with how hard it should be to hit these harder achievements, it`s what hitting all achievements opens up, unless each individual casino has taken in excess of 1.2 million from TSII then it cannot afford to take the top hit possible, if it took 2 hits within days then it is bankrupt plain and simple, and as we all know in the world of true randomness and however unlikely it seems, this stuff happens.

 

[Nate]

Is it just me or do the Thunderstruck payouts seem very low? My best hit on there has been about 1.4k (Max bet 5c). Seems the FS are often very rare and the Wildstorms also pay 0 often.

Also, what do you get if your paytable turns Gold? I'm off a few .. Like the 5 scatters and 5 kings (For the love of me, i cant get them..lol)

Nate

 

[Simmo!]

Simmo, I know you are a good sort and I am sure you believe in what you are saying but if you believe the RTP can be altered of MG slots then how do you believe this is done?
Also why do you think that if Casinos were unscrupulous enough to introduce new slots at a higher RTP, than is the intended norm, they would suddenly become paragons of virtue and never alter the RTP again?

If it's done then it would be the software provider on MG - the casinos cannot set RTP on MG to the best of my knowledge. My hunch is they agree on an RTP of say, 96% for a given game, release it for a month at 97% across the MG network, then knock it to back to the original and leave it. How? No idea... an extra symbol on one reel? Pass.

On RNG: A condition of TST certification is that the result of each spin is independent and randomly generated. If that didn't happen, MG wouldn't have TST. If they didn't have TST, they wouldn't have Ladbrokes, 32Red etc.

 

[XOXOXOXOXOX]

I found that TSII in flash will not share the same achievements. Does that mean flash games connected to a different server all together?

 

[Rusty]

If it's done then it would be the software provider on MG - the casinos cannot set RTP on MG to the best of my knowledge. My hunch is they agree on an RTP of say, 96% for a given game, release it for a month at 97% across the MG network, then knock it to back to the original and leave it. How? No idea... an extra symbol on one reel? Pass.

On RNG: A condition of TST certification is that the result of each spin is independent and randomly generated. If that didn't happen, MG wouldn't have TST. If they didn't have TST, they wouldn't have Ladbrokes, 32Red etc.

The problem with TST certification Simmo is that it often only relates to the integrity of the RNG and not the algorithms that modify that data for the game.
Even when it does they are reliant on the Casinos to send playlogs for verification data, I mean it is not as though the data presented is gathered by an independent body. (Stop snickering in the back!)

Here is a revealing end paragraph from a TST certificate for a Playtech casino.
My comment in bold
Underline by me for effect.

TST's game payout calculations were limited to the game play log files submitted by Playtech (Cyprus) Limited, and reviewed by TST in a laboratory environment (What does that mean - there was a test tube and a Bunsen burner on the shelf?) For verification purposes TST has maintained a control version of these files. The scope of work for TST's game payout calculations did not include a technical assessment of (casinos name here) Internet gaming system or the associated information systems and financial controls.
-------------------------------------------

So their payout calculations were limited to the data Playtech elected to send them and there was no assessment of the integrity of the software made or the IS or financial controls used therein but the Casino has a shiny TST certificate to show how fair they are.

Hands up if you think that guarantees you a fair game.
I'm not having a pop at you Simmo but there are a lot of misconceptions about TST certification and what that does or does not guarantee.

Sorry for derail, back to your scheduled programming...

 

[Simmo!]

I'm not having a pop at you Simmo but there are a lot of misconceptions about TST certification and what that does or does not guarantee.

LOL no worries Rusty - I'm always open to a good debate

I'd add some fuel to the fire though. My opinion is, if I were Ladbrokes (MG), Betfred (Playtech) or Paddy Power (Wagerworks) for example, I would be sure to do my due diligence first and ensure that any software licenced to power my casino was 100% fair and random. The effects of it becoming public knowledge that the software we use was non-random or biased in any way could potentially do irrepairable damage to the brand. It just wouldn't be worth the risk when you consider sportsbook is the mainstay of income and reputaton.

I can't be 100% sure on this as I haven't read all the licensing terms, but I would also be very surprised if Gibraltar and in particular the IoM or Alderney, would let me use software that wasn't 100% watertight or it could take them down with it.

I also think this is why operators don't have access to the RNG. Again, as one of those casinos, I wouldn't want my brand damaged by another operator less scrupulous altering payouts to suit themselves. If it came to light that the software allowed this, that could have serious knock-on effects. Which is why I think MG, Playtech and Wagerworks are legit in this regard.

Now, if I was a Costa-Rican "licenced" RTG....

 

[Rusty]

There is certainly a lot of room for debate on this Simmo and your opinion is obviously as valid as mine but personally I would be very cautious when making assumptions about the integrity of even the big brands.
William Hill certainly fit the bill as a big brand and I have caught them either in a lie or at the very least to be comfortable breaking their own T&C's when it suits them - either way it proves integrity is not their strong suit.

Also remember that a fair game is open to interpretation and as I have discussed in previous threads a regulatory bodies distinction of what is fair often comes in well below my own and that is assuming that there is zero corruption and all regulations are carried out to the last dotted I by every casino - A scenario that is extremely unlikely to exist.

I'm not sure about Wager works but neither MG nor Playtech software would be passed fit for consumption by the UKGC in their current guise.
MGS and Playtech are definitely weighted as well and there is provision for this to be considered fair under many regulatory bodies but that is another argument.

I discussed many of the issues involved with Jetset in the "Are regulatory bodies transparent thread"
It is worth considering that Alderney amongst many other regulatory bodies ignored my very simple request for information that was relevant to software integrity.
Talk about taking the 5th

If you still enjoy your experience and are happy with the casinos you play at that is all that matters to you but under current circumstances and when I know my gaming data to contradict the Casino mantra, "Every spin is independent from the last", "Each stop position always has an equal probability of selection" then I will never assume a fair game and thus I will always challenge specific points made by anyone that professes a casino is fair because...
(By the way I am not referring to RTP in such data)

To be fair I also debunk my fair share of xxx software is rigged because posts as well (except my own ) so I am not without perspective on this issue.
Anyway, I have derailed enough threads lately so I will just walk off into the sunset on this one - for now.

 

[Simmo!]

I guess this could be debated forever Rusty. Unfortunately there is no definitive way to prove it one way or the other so the debate will run over and over in every gambling forum I guess.

But I think you hit the nail on the head when you alluded to forming one's own opinion. Ultimately, a player will probably consider the factors or their own results and decide for themselves whether (and where) to play. Although I take your point about Will Hill, there are brands whose integrity I trust and who have (IMO) far, far too much at stake to cheat - that for me is a major factor in seeing it the way I do.

It's frustrating to me - someone who generally believes the big software providers play fair - when you see it questioned so regularly but conversely I am sure it is frustrating for those who put those arguments forward to see the same old arguments from the other side

The only oddity for me is that someone would continue to play at a casino or on software where they thought the games weren't fair. I certainly wouldn't.

 

[Rusty]

I guess this could be debated forever Rusty. Unfortunately there is no definitive way to prove it one way or the other so the debate will run over and over in every gambling forum I guess.

But I think you hit the nail on the head when you alluded to forming one's own opinion. Ultimately, a player will probably consider the factors or their own results and decide for themselves whether (and where) to play. Although I take your point about Will Hill, there are brands whose integrity I trust and who have (IMO) far, far too much at stake to cheat - that for me is a major factor in seeing it the way I do.

It's frustrating to me - someone who generally believes the big software providers play fair - when you see it questioned so regularly but conversely I am sure it is frustrating for those who put those arguments forward to see the same old arguments from the other side

The only oddity for me is that someone would continue to play at a casino or on software where they thought the games weren't fair. I certainly wouldn't.

You obviously never played the AWP slots then.

This is a generalisation and not aimed at you personally - It is not so much frustration with the same arguments coming from the other side (many of which I believe I have proven to be weak) it is the ignoring of the arguments coming from my side

 

[De Beuker]

Okay KK, from what I can see from that screenshot is that it is from Ladbrokes, so I duly rang Ladbrokes and spoke to Jo (for those of you whom who like that terribly English sexah female voice, I would ring up Ladbrokes and ask to speak to Jo just for that reason lol) and this 5 reel wild storm win cannot be verified, like Jo clearly expressed `As this would have been probably the world`s 1st and only 5 reel WS win it would have pride and place in the winners section`.

So unless I have the incorrect casino for this win it seems all is not as it seems.

Interesting!
If that 5-reel wildstorm has never been hit yet, then WHY does that jackpotthermometer (that CLEARLY indicates a 2.4 million coins win) reset several times a day??!!

 

[Seventh777]

Interesting!
If that 5-reel wildstorm has never been hit yet, then WHY does that jackpotthermometer (that CLEARLY indicates a 2.4 million coins win) reset several times a day??!!

I have noticed this anomaly on many slots DB, you log on check the JTM it`s set around 50%, a little time later when you change slots it`s around the 99%-100% mark.

I joined this forum for the sole purpose of finding out if my perception of MG slots in general, was either a bad run of luck in at least 10 different casinos or a radical change of their whole payout agendas. So far all i`ve encountered are somewhat patronising and condescending replies, a screenshot that when I phoned up to verify was instructed it did not exist, and not one conclusive reply proving that their feature payouts in any way, sort, or form, are still exactly as they were upon release of TSII, even though i`ve shown many screenshots depicting the contrary.

Hardly inspiring responses from a forum I was led to believe was here to ensure the general public get a fair return from their gambling, and are not led up the garden path thus playing certain slots under false pretences.

 

[Nate]

I found that TSII in flash will not share the same achievements. Does that mean flash games connected to a different server all together?

Hi XoX,

I have noticed that too. Sometimes when the software becomes laggy, I play flash instead of the DL version. When I go into the DL version, I do not have the same achievements and need to start from scratch. I have opted to stay on the Flash version because you will be doing double the work to get acheivements you already have.

Also, apart from the 5 x Wilds that was posted .. What are the biggest wins you have seen. I play max bet on TS2 and have not had a win more than 1.4k. LOTR has given me bigger payouts.

I wonder if anyone can clarify this?

Nate

 

[woodpecker]

Although I take your point about Will Hill, there are brands whose integrity I trust and who have (IMO) far, far too much at stake to cheat - that for me is a major factor in seeing it the way I do.

The same could have been said about Arthur Andersen, the audit firm involved in the Enron scandal. They had too much at stake to cheat, but they actually did
However, the record show that a player won a video poker jackpot “only two hours after the introduction”. It was last May, and the casino was Casino Club....

 

[Seventh777]

Interesting!
If that 5-reel wildstorm has never been hit yet, then WHY does that jackpotthermometer (that CLEARLY indicates a 2.4 million coins win) reset several times a day??!!

Been trawling around many forums the past few days, after googling a few respective words regarding MG casinos in general, I was brought right back here, and a thread that could have the many posters there suffering severe de ja vu`s when reading this one, pay particular attention to brianzz post regarding the jackpot thermometer........

https://www.casinomeister.com/forum...you-have-lost-one-loyal-player-s-trust.26877/

I really do believe that the powers that be here start using those powers and give us some answers!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!.