Tips Reduced Slot RTP's - How YOU Are Affected!

[jasonuk]

Rocknrollah had it; he had that magic hit of 100k on a certain game. But admitted later that that number was pretty much what he deposit. The Bandit Slots too with his 6 pound 100k win on Fruit party. He said something down the line that, 100k on avg was what he did deposit over time.

I'm not sure these are good examples - both bandit and rolla have periods of aggressive momentum play, so they will be very much aware of what their overall break even line is while potentially thousands or tens of thousands of pounds adrift - that won't necessarily be one game, one provider or even one casino.

In the case of bandit, his play on Reel King was so aggressive that casinos started to investigate it for irregularities when he topped for £20k+ wins. At one point he was a hefty six figures ahead, but the more you play, the less you beat the curve and stories started to emerge he was sometimes losing tens of thousands in a single session chasing tops. Some may argue the game "changed" on him (although no evidence has been provided to back that allegation) but similarly the variance will catch up with him over time.

Ive talked about it with someone; the only way to really get ahead seems to be live games then. Cards, roulette etc. Because if served right, there's virtually no RTP and it's just the luck of the hand, right?

Depending on what card game you play - perfect Blackjack can be as high as 99.7%, Baccarat is 98.9%. The beauty of both games is there is full transparency - as long as the deck is fair, and as long as the dealer or shuffler isn't doing anything shady, then there's no RNG to worry about. Roulette historically was the same, but RNG wheels are becoming more of a thing now which predictably players are going to dislike when a "real wheel" can seemingly defy the laws of physics.

So lets say we're not getting beyond that 96.5% on avg then, tell me what the point is gambling is? The casino and provider just snoops off a percentage of what you overall deposit then.

RTP being return to players, not an individual - so the more people collectively play, the more they will lose... the casinos don't need to cheat (they didn't need to stoop to 88% online slots either, but alas here we are) as they let the maths model do the heavy lifting. The stories that tend to surface are either a) rogue operators running pirated or unregulated games, b) poorly tested or implemented games that can escape the maths [upwards or downwards] of the maths model, for example bogus assumptions on stored value (e.g. The Dark Knight Rises), c) people crying conspiracy based on inappropriately small sample sizes.

One thing that is important to remember, is weighted random vs true random. Players will instinctively assume the latter even though games can often use the former. A perfect example would be must-drop jackpots - the weighting is designed that the chance in the early phases is astronomical (billions or trillions to one), towards the end it will approach certainty. Doesn't feel particularly fair - and it's not in the sense early players are contributing the RTP but have no real chance to win it - but as long as it is explained accurately in the game rules, then it's up to the player to be aware of that.

 

[deleted20230517]

For a casino to "change" a game i think they have to either contact the provider or regulator, adapt changes, and launch the game back into the casino. You won't see or notice a thing, not even in the help file.

They can do it in a stealth matter. But obvious a game is not supposed to top at 20k on a daily basis either.

 

[jasonuk]

But obvious a game is not supposed to top at 20k on a daily basis either.

It wasn't the intended playstyle, but it was a valid mechanism of the slot - he gambled every single win to the top of the ladder (I believe was 500-1000x the stake) and did some kind of martingale strategy (later up to £40 and even £80 spins) so the top would put him even or ahead.

The base game is paying 96% RTP but all of that is being punted into the gamble ladder. The gamble ladder pays 100% RTP on a true 50-50 gamble.

So the end result is he hits the top and makes a profit (small or large), or he never hits the top and loses a substantial amount of money. As the gamble is part of the same transaction, the casino ledger would see a string of losing spins and then a monster hit... predictably enough for them to investigate.

 

[kura]

On slots of certain popular high volatility game provider I noticed the RTP varies between as low as 88%!!! (lol yes 88%), up to 96%, depending on which casino I check. That means this provider has different RTP versions of the same game for different casinos - all of them are Curacao licensed. I am new here and I am not sure if I can post names, so I am not going to post any

Someone above reported his calculated RTP was as low as 50% or less, my understanding of RTP is that it is calculated on a very large number of spins (I believe in millions??), so I think its perfectly normal to have a very low RTP if you are unlucky enough. At the same time from my experience I won a 1k+ from 50 EUR deposit, that makes a RTP of over 2000% right? I certainly did not complain about that

 

[bamberfishcake]

On slots of certain popular high volatility game provider I noticed the RTP varies between as low as 88%!!! (lol yes 88%), up to 96%, depending on which casino I check. That means this provider has different RTP versions of the same game for different casinos - all of them are Curacao licensed. I am new here and I am not sure if I can post names, so I am not going to post any

Someone above reported his calculated RTP was as low as 50% or less, my understanding of RTP is that it is calculated on a very large number of spins (I believe in millions??), so I think its perfectly normal to have a very low RTP if you are unlucky enough. At the same time from my experience I won a 1k+ from 50 EUR deposit, that makes a RTP of over 2000% right? I certainly did not complain about that

Post names. It's the only way we can learn to stay away from the casinos offering lower-paying games.

The industry loves to hide and avoid discussing RTP. Some sites I have noticed now mention RTP in their FAQ section or similar - a sign that people are getting wise. But, many offer misleading info in their description of it.

 

[hugobroke]

Just logged into Genting a couple of days ago which is basically a Skill-On-Net Ojo skin.

There was a popup about some "game changes" and they listed a few slots

Book of Magic was one of them - on every slot they showed the max win they have historically paid out and for this game it was some huge huge number - it was now reset to a small amount.

So suspected they changed the RTP and were obliged to treat it as a new game - checked the RTP - that game is now down to 90%.

 

[Siohmy]

Just logged into Genting a couple of days ago which is basically a Skill-On-Net Ojo skin.

There was a popup about some "game changes" and they listed a few slots

Book of Magic was one of them - on every slot they showed the max win they have historically paid out and for this game it was some huge huge number - it was now reset to a small amount.

So suspected they changed the RTP and were obliged to treat it as a new game - checked the RTP - that game is now down to 90%.

That is actually a lower %age than their bricks and mortar casinos I believe. I did set up an account with them, took one look at the RTP (for this game funnily enough) and, not surprisingly, logged out without so much as depositing a penny.

 

[jasonuk]

Looks like the latest weapon in the WH toolkit - if you won't lower them, we'll remove them...

It’s out with the old and in with the new, as we make room for some new slots at William Hill Vegas.
This means some games you played recently will no longer be available.
But don’t worry, we’re always adding new games to our collection. Some of our latest games include:

<dross>

Will you find your new favourite at William Hill Vegas?
Find out which games are leaving us below:

• Gator Gold Gigablox™ • Lucky Neko • Vikings Go Berzerk: Reloaded • Dwarf Mine • 12 Trojan Mysteries • Ticket to Fortune • Megaways Mob Megaways™ • Payday Megaways™ • Arto and the 7 Deadly Spins Megaways™ • Alchemy • Easter Island 2 • Super Cash Drop • Vault of Fortune • Hades Gigablox • Desperate Dawgs • Multifly • The Flacon Huntress • Pink Elephants 2 • Fruit Warp • Jin Ji Bao Xi Megaways • Blazin' Hot 7's: Stack 'em Up • Rainbow Riches Cluster Magic • Raging Rhino Megaways • Invaders Megaways • Cluedo: Cash Mystery • Money Train 2 • Greek Gods • John Hunter and the Mayan Gods • A Night Out • Casino Charms • Adventure Trail • Wild Lava • Kingdoms Rise Chasm of Fear • Funky Monkey • Ice Cave • Age of the Gods™: Epic Troy • Jungle Trouble • Football Rules • Absolutely Mammoth • Easter Surprise • Big Shots • Crazy 7 • Age of the Gods™ Norse: King of Asgard • Archer • Age of Gods™: Ruler of the Seas • Sacred Stones • Wild West Wilds • Blazing Bells • Nian Nian You Yu • Safari Heat • Age of the Gods™: Medusa & Monsters • Age of Gods™: Apollo Power • Age of the Gods™: Ruler of the Dead™ • Tiger Turtle Dragon Phoenix™ • Tiger Stacks • Wild Worlds™ • Dead or Alive • Deco Diamonds • Moon Spirit - Hold and Win • Book Of Halloween • Book Of Christmas • Nitropolis • Kaiju • Miss Wildfire • Ecuador Gold • Vegas Diamonds • IO • Tahiti Gold • Voodoo Gold • Lakes Five • Micro Knights • Gun Slinger: Fully Loaded • Jackpoteers • Tomb of Dead™ - Power 4 Slots • Fortunes of Ra • Kong's Temple™ • Star Spinner • Vikings Of Fortune • White Rabbit • Who Wants to Be a Millionaire? Mystery Box

(List collapsed for brevity)

Plenty of 95-97% slots in there that haven't been remodelled downwards - older titles from Yggdrasil (e.g. newer: 90%), WMS/SG (newer: 88-92%), Relax (newer: 94%), Playtech (newer: 92-93%), NetEnt (newer: 92%), Blueprint (newer: 92-93%) and some Elk and Thunderkick titles too...

Also be aware some of these (like White Rabbit) have stored value, so when they're removed that value could be permanently lost.

I really hope this isn't the direction taken by others - I'm happy playing older games at 96%, I'll just about tolerate playing them at 94%... I don't want to play modern ultra-high variance crap at 90-92%.

 

[Lemon]

I love the expression 'make room', as if there's a finite amount of space available to them. Dead or Alive going as well; they must be scared of someone hitting a wild line at £0.45 stake and having the cheek to withdraw £1000. As an option for players this outfit really are a fucking stain...

 

[jasonuk]

My random memory from that list would be Ice Cave, where you could freeze wilds on reels 3, 4 and 5. Not only did I manage to lock all nine wilds, but it took a further 175 paid spins before the death wild cleared them - a cheeky £550 profit from 30p spins... still one of my biggest ever slot wins.

I love the expression 'make room', as if there's a finite amount of space available to them. Dead or Alive going as well; they must be scared of someone hitting a wild line at £0.45 stake and having the cheek to withdraw £1000. As an option for players this outfit really are a fucking stain...

I rolled my eyes at that one also. If they were pulling one provider or platform (with the associated costs of deployment) at least that would be understandable, but this is far more sinister... sure enough Money Train 1 (nerfed to 94.0%) and Money Train 3 (deployed at 94.0%) survive, but Money Train 2 (at 96.4%) does not...

They wouldn't have been the first or the last site to "hide" games - with the most recent WH website revamps you either had to explicitly name them in the search bar, or could find them with the Providers feature... but I can't think of another casino that is blanket removing higher RTP offerings like this... and it's a really dangerous precedent to set.

But at least the UKGC is looking out for players who want to play responsibly, oh wait...

 

[Bencuri]

Guys, this is disgusting. I played a lot between 2014-18. Back then at my favourite casinos, I regularly won 300-700$ with 25-50cent bets on slots. Not every day, but very often, I was even surprised how good the payout was compared to real casinos and slot halls. I skipped some years, recently I returned, and I am shocked to find how bad the payout became at the same casinos, on the same games. Only a few games remained as good as they were, but most have ridiculous payouts. Games where I could max out free spin winning limits before, hardly pay a few dollars on free spins, if you manage to hit them once in a century. If I had not played earlier, I couldn't believe how well paying these games were in the past. It is ridiculous what's going on. If I were not a master of roulette, I could not win at all nowdays and cash out anything, only a few dollars.

 

[SuperTed88]

Perhaps the long term goal is to have clients playing slots at bingo level rtp, lol.

 

[SuperTed88]

Perhaps the long term goal is to have clients playing slots at bingo level rtp, lol.

 

[PMKFRUITPRO]

They’ve already ducked under that level I’m afraid!!!

 

[Bencuri]

I was in Florida in 2016, and I found it annoying how bad the payout was at Gulfstream Casino compared to online gaming. Now, the situation is, the experience online became similar to Gulfstream. Still not that bad, but getting closer.

 

[Webzcas]

It is when the RTP reaches the level of the machines in those MerkurSlot "shops" that have sprouted up, up and down the country in the town's high streets, that the death-knell of online slot playing will come to pass IMO.

 

[satchnz]

It is when the RTP reaches the level of the machines in those MerkurSlot "shops" that have sprouted up, up and down the country in the town's high streets, that the death-knell of online slot playing will come to pass IMO.

I’d like to believe this but as many as there are playing at the Merkur Slots shops, there are many more like them playing online. Totally oblivious to what an RTP is, and blissfully unaware that the house edge can vary from online casino to casino for the exact same game.

 

[Guntis]

No idea what in Merkur places is going on, but somewhere last year i went to a place so-called "Amusement", and there was a machine, a roulette like slot machine where your need to place a bet and then gamble to be eligible for a spin .

That's a serious rip off, but people were still playing it.

 

[slot_zombie]

It is when the RTP reaches the level of the machines in those MerkurSlot "shops" that have sprouted up, up and down the country in the town's high streets, that the death-knell of online slot playing will come to pass IMO.

Well, since you can get up to 94% on certain (albeit only 1 or 2) games on Equinox cabinets in Merkur shops, and some online joints are happily running on 91%, I see the 4 horsemen riding over the hill.

 

[goatwack]

The video game industry is trouncing all around it, including music, movies and relatively niche activities like online slotting.

As gambling will forever be around in some form, it's far more likely that slot designers are going to integrate a video game-like experience into their slots over anything as 'inconsequential' as RTP.

Most punters won't know or care about returns, as the medium evolves and adapts, and players are prepared to forego traditional slot play in favour of being entertained, through any number of thematic preferences and recognizable brands.

I think players are being conditioned into accepting high-variance titles, with little to no regard being given to RTPs, all the while under the illusion they stand a chance of 'hitting big', Merkur or otherwise.

It's just a matter of time before 'returns to players' are completely meaningless, and slotting's six feet under, to be replaced with glorified Frankenscratchcards, and we'll all be pining for the good ol' days of Starburst. God help us all

 

[Mattue]

The more fun the game is, the less I care about RTP, but I would still never play anything under 94%

I wouldn't be surprised if one day a 100% RTP slot is created that includes a Jackpot so improbable to hit, that it will never pay out and everyone spins away for years at 20% RTP feeding it.

I remember a really old slot from 20+ years ago that loaded with a big win combination to tempt you. Someone calculated the odds of hitting that exact combination would take millions of players spinning at millions of casinos for millions of years, and still most likely not hit it. Unless you're a streamer of course

 

[Bencuri]

That's a serious rip off, but people were still playing it.

Not me. I got introduced to slots at brick and mortar, but even back then I noticed they are mostly for loosing money or just small, marginal wins. When online gambling came it was a very different story. There are still some good places, but if those disappear, I won't waste my money on slots. If someone is playing it for the fun, there is always the Demo mode. But wasting money on free games that never hit or payout only a dollar or 2... Crazy. 10-15 years ago i don't remember a Freespin session that ended with 0 income. Recently I experience it time by time.

There were casinos back then that were suspicious though: Club World - I played there for years redeeming free chips, but I never ever hit a free spin. I played Fruit Frenzy only, but while at other casinos Fruit Frenzy hit free spins often, there it never hit for me during years. Same for Microgaming Slot: Thunderstruck. When it was released there were so many free spins awarded for that game at so many casinos for years. I played a lot with those, but for years the bonus free spins never hit on that game either for me. While at the same time in Playtech Casinos where I started playing in 2007, I could win something in nearly every session I logged in. Compared to that, a brick and mortar casinos are a joke. Back then I thought it will remain like that forever.

 

[Christine28]

You did much work on this.
Did it make sense when 99% of the slots having an average RTP of 96.10% - 96.60%
to have a calculator?
I would prefer a list of slots which has lowered their RTP or a list of providers
taking advantage against players on nerfing their slots.

I have read that on line casinos could lower the RTP of their games by adjusting the algorithms and settings of their games, they could also hide the RTP by not disclosing the information to players. RTP is a crucial metric for players to assess the fairness of an online casino. Curacao licensed casinos may use a variety of different software providers each with their own set of games and associated RTP. Here the situation can be worse. Curacao is very well known for the lack of enforcement and on line casinos lower and hide RTP very easily, if you play in Curacao casinos, the RTP can be anything and a casino could program its slot machines to pay out less frequently or reduce the payout percentage of certain symbols, which translates to more profit for the casino.

 

[Christine28]

Guys, this is disgusting. I played a lot between 2014-18. Back then at my favourite casinos, I regularly won 300-700$ with 25-50cent bets on slots. Not every day, but very often, I was even surprised how good the payout was compared to real casinos and slot halls. I skipped some years, recently I returned, and I am shocked to find how bad the payout became at the same casinos, on the same games. Only a few games remained as good as they were, but most have ridiculous payouts. Games where I could max out free spin winning limits before, hardly pay a few dollars on free spins, if you manage to hit them once in a century. If I had not played earlier, I couldn't believe how well paying these games were in the past. It is ridiculous what's going on. If I were not a master of roulette, I could not win at all nowdays and cash out anything, only a few dollars.

I
On line casinos would have an incentive to adjust RTP to increase their profits even if it is licensed.
My game play rarely hits a good win, and symbols on a game are certainly reduced, casinos set the odds of winning these features so low that they do not offset the lowered RTP.

 

[snorky510238]

Just for clarity, it’s the game providers that will be setting the rtp, on the backend. Even if a game advertises a rtp of 94%, there’s no guarantee the game is actually playing at that.

If audits are being done, there are lots of ways around it. Providers are doing as they please and getting away with daylight robbery. Online gambling has become a total farce.