Tips Reduced Slot RTP's - How YOU Are Affected!

Jono777

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I have a thought and its proven (mostly) correct following my (very small sample) testing in the past few months'

With reduced RTP, it seems if the game is a VERY popular game (Book of Dead, Dead or Alive) then the RTP drop is hardly noticeable at all.

On the other hand, if the game has a mediocre or average player base, be prepared to be torn a new arse hole.

All this being said, I am still dead against it and strongly believe an established casino could still survive quite comfortably and turn a decent profit whilst still offering the higher end of the RTP's.
 

dunover

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There are numerous ways you could shave a couple of percent.

1. Remove the pays for 2-of-a-kind wins (say 9's on Cleopatra or 2x Diamonds on Bonanza.)
2. Remove a few non-paying scatters to reduce feature frequency (or remove them altogether like with Bonanza.) :)
3. Replace a symbol on all the reel strips with a lower one.
4. Have reduced alternative reel strips for features.
5. Reduce average feature yield, as said above.
6. Increase blanks on reel strips.

Remember, a developer can do pretty all of the above quite quickly and run simulations over a billion spins to see the exact TRTP they will end up with. I expect there's far simpler ways though, the developer, once the 'factory' TRTP version is made, can simply type a new RTP value into the system and the programme would make the change accordingly, automatically by any combination of the ways I listed. I'm sure our friend Trancemonkey would know far more then me or us lot, given that IGT have always made slots with RTP ranges that can supply both the lower (land-based) and higher online markets.

P.S. - I haven't had the nerve yet (given that over 2 decades ago I put the odd bit of cash in them and don't want nightmares) but has anyone been brave enough to enter the UK club machine minimum of 70% in the calculator? :eek:
 

Lemon

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An easy way to have a range of different RTPs for a game is to have 2 (or more) different base game reelsets and weight them accordingly. So for example -
  • Game A - 70% base game, 35% feature = 105%
  • Game B - 50% base game, 35% feature = 85%
Then you just have a simple table that weights one game against the other. So for a 95% game the weighting would be 50/50, and for a 96% RTP the weighting would be 55/45 in favour of Game A. This means you've only got to change a couple of numbers to get an overall RTP% of anywhere between 85% (unlicensed online casinos and motorway service stations) and 105% (Streamers) :rolleyes:

The difference for the player between the two base games could be something as simple as having fewer wilds on reels 1 and 2 on Game B, so barely noticeable in a short session. The feature hit rate would remain the same over both game types. Or you could have fewer bonus symbols on Game B and then the difference in RTP% is entirely down to the scaling the feature hit rate, and a miniscule change to the base reels when removing/adding bonus symbols. Players tend to prefer the actual bonus itself to be left untouched. You're not going to play ~200 games for a bonus that isn't as good as it used to be.

There are loads of ways to change the RTP% of a game, and usually the best way is to make it as unnoticeable as possible.
 

rockwonder77

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OK, we know for the last 18 months developers have been coaxed to provide alternative (invariably lower!) maths models to online casinos. Generally they have and should inform you of product changes, although not always and in the case of Coral, having slots with nerfed RTP's that were not reflected in the game list RTP's which claimed the higher factory settings.
I think that when players see a reduction of say 2% from 96 to 94% they see the difference as not that significant. Alas, it is and very much so as when you take into account recycling of winnings, that figure has an exponential effect on your average playtime. In this example, by around 30%!!

We all have our 'usual' deposit amounts and stakes, say £50 at 40p spins. Obviously there's no accounting here for variance, just the long term fact that every spin will on average cost you 4% of its value, the house edge on a 96% slot. This video explains how my RTP spin calculator works and how to simply enter your deposit, stake and RTP of your chosen game to compare average playtime/spin quantities you can expect.

*Disclaimer - for now this is embedded in a specific page on my website which as you will see, as an approved CM webmeister, I always have an indirect link to in my signature anyway. I will however, endeavour to get this embedded in a post in this thread if possible ASAP so forum members can use it from the forum!

**This video is not age-gated as it's news/informational and has no gambling involved.

Great video! Explained very well. I was trying to get the rtp of rtg slots but its not included in your providers list.
 

dunover

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Great video! Explained very well. I was trying to get the rtp of rtg slots but its not included in your providers list.
That's because they are unlicensed. I'll tell you though, they all have the same maths, or used to, at 91-97% where the operator chose the RTP.
 

Mouse75

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I agree that T-RTP will always show itself in the lottery style results games like Jamming Jars. A finite number of spins - no matter the pool size - should generate T-RTP in the long run.

The games which have great potential as opposed to a lottery pick, do run in a different manner.. IF the chance of the largest humongous spins is vanishingly small where things need to repeatedly happen at tiny likelihoods, even on a huge spin scale, trillions upon trillions of spins, I honestly do not think the games will reach T-RTP. We are not talking about a 1 in 37 chance roulette spin here. Random numbers do very strange things... a one in ten billion chance - decided by more than one factor (As opposed to a one off lottery pick) really will just not happen as often as it should.

I know this sounds insane from someone who studied maths, but is an underlying principle for these games.

I'm really not sure i've made this clear........ too much friday night alcohol consumption
 

Bunbu

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Best thing you can do as a player IMO? Play at casinos that don't pull this shit on their players.

I always deposit small amounts and use welcome bonuses when I open an account in a casino, just to get a feel for the RTP.

For example, Twin Casino (i am under a month customer there) appears to have a very high RTP at the moment. I cashed nice amounts three times in 8-9 days timeframe. I wagered the first time and cashout with the first welcome bonus. I lost the second and third deposit bonuses. After, I put in raw cash three times and cashed out twice in a row. I've also had good RTP experiences with bet365 (I've been a member there for 10+ years), but it feels like there are days and days when the RTP is lower, then suddenly you just win and win...

I also closed/blocked two other casino accounts in same time period of 7 days, due to poor rtp.

Yes, you can feel RTP! :)
 

Slotplayer83

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Reduced RTP meaning online casino going to dead soon. I already closed most of casino accounts.
Scam providers will be more and more, and players will be less and less.

Its not going down that easy. The business is just stalling. It's untill the next thing hypes everything up again and the cycle is complete. If they want to be truely competitive, launch a casino that accepts players from different country's, add highest possible RTP and just because of the popularity over time it's already a succes.

It goes bad when a established brand is being bought; and RTP suddenly is turned down left and right. They solely run on good name and rip their players. Because the only interest the buyer has is making it back + more.
 

crogambler

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Its not going down that easy. The business is just stalling. It's untill the next thing hypes everything up again and the cycle is complete. If they want to be truely competitive, launch a casino that accepts players from different country's, add highest possible RTP and just because of the popularity over time it's already a succes.

It goes bad when a established brand is being bought; and RTP suddenly is turned down left and right. They solely run on good name and rip their players. Because the only interest the buyer has is making it back + more.
Play at smaller casinos. All the big ones have RTP turned down, as this is offered to casinos when they pass certain GGR. I have inside knowledge and I can say that 90%+ of sites "accredited" by Casinomesiter have RTP turned down. Smaller and new casinos do not get that option until they reach a certain amount in revenues.
 

colinsunderland

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Play at smaller casinos. All the big ones have RTP turned down, as this is offered to casinos when they pass certain GGR. I have inside knowledge and I can say that 90%+ of sites "accredited" by Casinomesiter have RTP turned down. Smaller and new casinos do not get that option until they reach a certain amount in revenues.
Inside knowledge? You just need to look at the help files.
Can you name some of the smaller casinos who can't use lower RTP's as I don't think thats true.
 

Slotplayer83

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Help file really is'nt anything. A casino can present you a game with 96.5% rtp for example but have either it's max bet turned down or volatilty nuked down as well without having the obligation to mention it. Correct me if i'm wrong here.

I mean how many new casino's have a list on their homepage, with players who won 350k, 41k, 17k, 22k and yet upon password reset, none of these users ever exist suddenly.

Dont bullshit me.

Inside knowledge? You just need to look at the help files.
Can you name some of the smaller casinos who can't use lower RTP's as I don't think thats true.

It's bin shown on this forum that some casino's offered a bogus help file, i.e advertising 96.5% while in console it was barely 92%.
 
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Slottery

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Play at smaller casinos. All the big ones have RTP turned down, as this is offered to casinos when they pass certain GGR. I have inside knowledge and I can say that 90%+ of sites "accredited" by Casinomesiter have RTP turned down. Smaller and new casinos do not get that option until they reach a certain amount in revenues.
On Monday just met some people who just got MGA license and are launching their first site hopefully within next two months, we went through their deals with different partners (game providers, payment providers and many others you need if you wanna run casino) and they will launch their first site with PnG 94.xx% RTP:s (and some other providers, don't remember everything from head).

If coming three months i can show you a new operator who launch and are not running some providers with the highest RTP version, would you like to make bet about it? Naturally, if i can't show you launch of new operator and license with lower RTP:s, i will lose that bet.
 

colinsunderland

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Help file really is'nt anything. A casino can present you a game with 96.5% rtp for example but have either it's max bet turned down or volatilty nuked down as well without having the obligation to mention it. Correct me if i'm wrong here.

I mean how many new casino's have a list on their homepage, with players who won 350k, 41k, 17k, 22k and yet upon password reset, none of these users ever exist suddenly.

Dont bullshit me.



It's bin shown on this forum that some casino's offered a bogus help file, i.e advertising 96.5% while in console it was barely 92%.
You're wrong about your first paragraph, although they can limit the max bet, that won't affect the RTP.
Can you link to the thread where a providers in game help file showed the incorrect RTP please? I've never seen that happen, so if it did I would imagine it was some dodgy casino/provider. The Entain group (formally GVC) replaced the provider help files and were showing the incorrect RTP, but that case doesn't match your figures so presumably you are talking about something else. It was also a one off and very easy to catch them out on.
 

Slotplayer83

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We know that, certain games runs more favorable once betting higher compared to betting minimal. So if you have a game that is having a bet cap, how does it not affect RTP then?

Second; that thread was right on this forum. Some going pointed out that the game help file advertised 96.5% or so but the actual javascript console showed the game being loaded at 92%, all over the place. That was purely misleading and obvious with brands too.

So dont be saying that my knowledge or info is coming out of my ass. Perhaps you should look a bit further.
 

colinsunderland

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We know that, certain games runs more favorable once betting higher compared to betting minimal. So if you have a game that is having a bet cap, how does it not affect RTP then?

Second; that thread was right on this forum. Some going pointed out that the game help file advertised 96.5% or so but the actual javascript console showed the game being loaded at 92%, all over the place. That was purely misleading and obvious with brands too.

So dont be saying that my knowledge or info is coming out of my ass. Perhaps you should look a bit further.
ok, so post the evidence to your claims then.
 

crogambler

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Inside knowledge? You just need to look at the help files.
Can you name some of the smaller casinos who can't use lower RTP's as I don't think thats true.
Ok. My career is in this industry and I know how it works. You don't get offered anything while you are below a certain GGR. This isn't valid for companies that own more casinos and most white labels. I have worked at one of the top 5 online casinos and their RTP's are criminaly low. I have also worked at a few smaller ones some time ago. If you don't think that is true, ok, suit yourself, I don't gain anything from saying this.
 

crogambler

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On Monday just met some people who just got MGA license and are launching their first site hopefully within next two months, we went through their deals with different partners (game providers, payment providers and many others you need if you wanna run casino) and they will launch their first site with PnG 94.xx% RTP:s (and some other providers, don't remember everything from head).

If coming three months i can show you a new operator who launch and are not running some providers with the highest RTP version, would you like to make bet about it? Naturally, if i can't show you launch of new operator and license with lower RTP:s, i will lose that bet.
Of course there are always exceptions, but in general it is how it is. There is not a single big casino that wasn't offered to set their RTP level, most new one's do not begin with lower RTP's. My first hand experience, not meeting some people and someone telling me something, working in the industry.
 

colinsunderland

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Ok. My career is in this industry and I know how it works. You don't get offered anything while you are below a certain GGR. This isn't valid for companies that own more casinos and most white labels. I have worked at one of the top 5 online casinos and their RTP's are criminaly low. I have also worked at a few smaller ones some time ago. If you don't think that is true, ok, suit yourself, I don't gain anything from saying this.
Ok, so give an example of the casinos? There's very very few who start up not as part of another license?
 

Slottery

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Of course there are always exceptions, but in general it is how it is. There is not a single big casino that wasn't offered to set their RTP level, most new one's do not begin with lower RTP's. My first hand experience, not meeting some people and someone telling me something, working in the industry.
So smaller operators who don't have yet high enough GGR can't get different RTP models from providers but there is always exceptions? Second statement pretty much override first and makes it to be untrue. There are huge amount of people working in industry in different roles and positions so mentioning that doesn't make your argument any stronger. You were asked to give some examples and offered bet to make your point but you instead choose magic "working in industry" phrase which seem to be argument that just always must be right and can't be questioned.

There for sure is correlation in what you only refer big and small casino RTP:s but it's not any industry wide agreement that any provider refuse to provide various RTP settings for new casinos. You said yourself already that there always are exceptions so what you say is very generic statement, like you said yourself "in general" which is quite widely used measure.
 

Slotplayer83

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He might have a point. I've encountered it myself as well that playing at a established brand at some point, did'nt yield the experience i used to had before. With other words; chances are different RTP models could be very true.
 

Deeplay

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Ok, so give an example of the casinos? There's very very few who start up not as part of another license?
Dr.bet is one of them opened in the last year or so. Solo casino and when I played with them all the slots were the highest RTP settings. Which for a new start up did kind of surprise me. And I had zero issues with them. Cant say if RTPS have now changed with them as I am not playing there at this time. But it does kind of fit with what Crogambler spoke of. And does actually make some sense.
 
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