Tips Reduced Slot RTP's - How YOU Are Affected!

[toms596]

Not sure if this belongs in screenshots that suck but I was expecting a lot more from this amount of spins on Bison Spirit

 

[slot_zombie]

This week's shill for "Steak" - Lucky Phoenix Megaways a reskin of Five Lions Megaways, of course. 98% RTP.

They really are cranking them out at 1 per week at the moment, it appears to be more than a whim or a test. This one is the first of Pragmatic's capped 5000x games to get the "conversion" treatment, nice to see they are not just doing the ultra high win potential ones.

 

[SuperTed88]

Wow, got offered a 100% reload bonus by Greenplay, deposited and played a bit then thought I'd just check the RTP on one of my favourites, Legacy of the Dead, omg 87.5% just the 9% below what it normally is when I play it! Won't be going back there again. Sort of explains the bonuses of late, lol. Feed those turkey's up for Christmas

edit. cs reply when I told them it was a disgrace, "All the information is there, or you can ask on chat" blah blah blah. So that's it now, every time I open a slot game wherever I play from now on I must check the RTP cos who knows who is going to whack those margins up and when.

 

[Siohmy]

87.5%!! That is bricks and mortar top Vegas strip hotel level of setting. I’m sure they have similar overheads.

 

[TheAddict]

Gonna attempt to predict your next email from Greenplay:
Achieve 3 wins in a row on any PNG slot to bag yourself 20 free spins on any PnG slot [winnings must be wagered on PnG slots]

 

[bamberfishcake]

The lower RTP is not the only nerfing going on. The average slot RTP is now calculated over billions of spins instead of millions.

Burning notes would take longer than playing the newer games.

 

[satchnz]

The lower RTP is not the only nerfing going on. The average slot RTP is now calculated over billions of spins instead of millions.

Burning notes would take longer than playing the newer games.

I didn’t know this but it makes sense.

 

[jasonuk]

The lower RTP is not the only nerfing going on. The average slot RTP is now calculated over billions of spins instead of millions.

This isn't a recent development - if we go back a decade, slots like Immortal Romance had billions of combinations in the base game alone. The only change there is that this is now disclosed publicly rather than in a technical document somewhere. As a reference, compensated machines had to hit their target within 10,000 spins (category C or D) or 100,000 spins (category B3 or B4) back in 2007 - and random non-scripted machines are much less predictable.

Saying that, the curve to get to that RTP has most definitely changed - not only because of the RTP cuts, but because of how stupidly top heavy streamer slots have become.

If we think back 10 years, even on a higher variance game, you'd be pretty unlucky not to get 50% RTP after 250 spins, and 75% after 1000 spins - the monster pays were suitably rare so while you'd win some and lose some, it was rare for it to go apocalyptic and go straight down. Additionally after 1000 spins you'd expect five to ten bonus rounds.

With bonus frequency on some providers now being measured in hours, the base game RTP being reduced to peanuts to compensate (for non-bonus buy jurisdictions like the UK) and a massive increase in RTP allocated to those monster pays, that curve is going to get pretty vertical - it's more like playing a lottery, 1 in 500 to win a ticket, and maybe 1 in 25 to then win the decent prizes.

People were never particularly good at judging variance and risk in the first place, that's particularly true in the current climate. It reminds me of the dying stages of the fruit machine market - the players and operators were extracting so much value out of the machine, the casual only ever saw the vertical downwards... at least they do have a chance to win here, however astronomical those odds may be.

 

[Siohmy]

Could not agree more. I had a rant on another thread about SOW and other stupid rules/restrictions that the UKGC have brought in but banning bonus buys may be the most genius yet because UK players will experience how insanely poor most modern slots are.
Forget switching off auto spins, forget 2.5 second spins and forget the rumoured incoming £5max stake. Simply play the newer slots for a few sessions and you’ll stop playing altogether or at least a lot less because they are just soo boring and often bankruptingly brutal.

 

[dunover]

This isn't a recent development - if we go back a decade, slots like Immortal Romance had billions of combinations in the base game alone. The only change there is that this is now disclosed publicly rather than in a technical document somewhere. As a reference, compensated machines had to hit their target within 10,000 spins (category C or D) or 100,000 spins (category B3 or B4) back in 2007 - and random non-scripted machines are much less predictable.

Saying that, the curve to get to that RTP has most definitely changed - not only because of the RTP cuts, but because of how stupidly top heavy streamer slots have become.

If we think back 10 years, even on a higher variance game, you'd be pretty unlucky not to get 50% RTP after 250 spins, and 75% after 1000 spins - the monster pays were suitably rare so while you'd win some and lose some, it was rare for it to go apocalyptic and go straight down. Additionally after 1000 spins you'd expect five to ten bonus rounds.

With bonus frequency on some providers now being measured in hours, the base game RTP being reduced to peanuts to compensate (for non-bonus buy jurisdictions like the UK) and a massive increase in RTP allocated to those monster pays, that curve is going to get pretty vertical - it's more like playing a lottery, 1 in 500 to win a ticket, and maybe 1 in 25 to then win the decent prizes.

People were never particularly good at judging variance and risk in the first place, that's particularly true in the current climate. It reminds me of the dying stages of the fruit machine market - the players and operators were extracting so much value out of the machine, the casual only ever saw the vertical downwards... at least they do have a chance to win here, however astronomical those odds may be.

Yeah, the AWP analogy is prudent here because you allude to the £100 jackpots (now) making the games unrecognisable from days of 20p spins and £6 for example, where the player would have some level of turnover if approaching them with say 25 credits or a fiver in hand. Mind you, even then the makers incorporated the 'streak' element with jackpot repeaters, enhanced pay (streak) periods and on low-techs, holds after wins to get around the single-credit pay limits. But the player effect was nothing compared to the weighting of online slots toward multi-thousand times bet wins.

It's a shame as recently I deleted several developer-provided RTP distribution graphs and stat sheets I had. I do recall though one for a NLC game and with a bit of calculation I worked out just how bad they would play for the average player who played them normally with say a starting balance of 100-200x bet. This is why I reckon Pragmatic for example have worked their games in most cases so that the theoretical wins of 20-100,000x bet you could get (looking at the reel sets and multiplier mechanic) are allocated down to more 4, 5 or 10k times bet wins as they would rather have many significant winners than one or two monster winners meaning the game maintains its presence in the YT and player community for longer.

It's a pretty predictable state of affairs now - a smaller developer wants to become big, with a high player take-up and therefore larger market capitalization so the owners can either be bought out by a main player like Playtech, L&W, MG etc. or become main players themselves. Their plan is simple and obvious - produce games which offer up 'Hollywood Hits' for the inevitably free publicity for both them and the casino, and to facilitate such wins and increase their frequency we have the bonus buy incorporated. Then other developers like Elk and Relax jump on the bandwagon with those kind of RTP distributions, they feature on YT channels and forums and so it goes on. You have now got a situation where the tail wags the dog. Where a small but very loud segment of the gaming community is effectively deciding the product we all get.

Then consider those aforementioned game mechanics offered at lower RTP figures and now you see why there is so much consternation in the 'normal' slotting community. We mention BTG a lot on this forum and in a way our criticism is unfounded as we always cite and ridicule 'big win potential' they have (rarely is seen) but conversely you do get the full 96% plus and usually some gameplay for your dollar as the RTP is not big win heavy in most cases, the RTP is nowhere near as 'lumpy' as it is with other HV games like the NLC ones. BTG for example took a long time (10+ years) to grow and cash-in with a buyout from a larger developer but they stuck to their guns as far as game models go, whereas in other cases I believe it's obvious as to the overall objective.

 

[curremon]

I dont know how im affected since i get absolute worst playtime , rtp and feature hit rate at winz ..

 

[mcgameboy]

I dont know how im affected since i get absolute worst playtime , rtp and feature hit rate at winz ..

At a rough guess (given the general tone of your posting - which generally consists of claims that you have been summarily buggered
on quite literally every single session of slotting in your whole damn life), I would confidently hazard a guess of "somewhat adversely" ....

Actually, that's not funny at all. Well...maybe just a little bit...

 

[curremon]

At a rough guess (given the general tone of your posting - which generally consists of claims that you have been summarily buggered
on quite literally every single session of slotting in your whole damn life), I would confidently hazard a guess of "somewhat adversely" ....

Actually, that's not funny at all. Well...maybe just a little bit...

Let me be angry!

 

[mack341]

Unibet recently sent me a questionnaire regarding why I have stopped playing there, in the section on casino experience there were about 10 different reasons provided, not one was about reduced rtp, so I used the 'other' reasons box.

You have to wonder how earnest they are to find out the real reasons why players may have left if they don't include as an option a major negative change in slot payouts.

 

[satchnz]

Unibet recently sent me a questionnaire regarding why I have stopped playing there, in the section on casino experience there were about 10 different reasons provided, not one was about reduced rtp, so I used the 'other' reasons box.

You have to wonder how earnest they are to find out the real reasons why players may have left if they don't include as an option a major negative change in slot payouts.

I would imagine they think that not many of their customers know what an RTP is, and they are probably correct. But I would have done exactly the same as you had I received the questionnaire (because that’s the very reason I stopped playing there too).

 

[mack341]

haha they've sent me another email today, an actual offer, deposit £100 notes and receive 50 high-value spins on 'powernudge', and yet nowhere in the email does it say what stake the spins actually are.

And no doubt it's a 94% slot...

Players with a sweet tooth will love the big wins and sugary treats on offer … especially since a whopping win of 5000x the bet could be triggered. [yes that's the bit you won't blinking tell me]

They must think I've got gambling addicted muppet written all over my forehead!

 

[pinnit2014]

haha they've sent me another email today, an actual offer, deposit £100 notes and receive 50 high-value spins on 'powernudge', and yet nowhere in the email does it say what stake the spins actually are.

And no doubt it's a 94% slot...

Players with a sweet tooth will love the big wins and sugary treats on offer … especially since a whopping win of 5000x the bet could be triggered. [yes that's the bit you won't blinking tell me]

They must think I've got gambling addicted muppet written all over my forehead!

Bit of Turps will take that right off ;-p

 

[deleted20230517]

Unibet is garbage if such practices are going on. But ive noticed something while registering in a casino in Holland. Auto-play disabled. Bet limits in effect. Bonus buy capped. And you have to like set a spending limit on a monthly basis upon signup. Ive tried a few games here and there, and i simply closed my account after that. It just did'nt feel right for some reason. I'm glad where i'm now we dont have these SOW, AP limitation and straight up bonus buys up to 10k a game.

The rate of money going in on a casino imposing such caps is far lower then a casino that does not have such restrictions.

 

[Bencuri]

OK, we know for the last 18 months developers have been coaxed to provide alternative (invariably lower!) maths models to online casinos. Generally they have and should inform you of product changes, although not always and in the case of Coral, having slots with nerfed RTP's that were not reflected in the game list RTP's which claimed the higher factory settings.
I think that when players see a reduction of say 2% from 96 to 94% they see the difference as not that significant. Alas, it is and very much so as when you take into account recycling of winnings, that figure has an exponential effect on your average playtime. In this example, by around 30%!!

We all have our 'usual' deposit amounts and stakes, say £50 at 40p spins. Obviously there's no accounting here for variance, just the long term fact that every spin will on average cost you 4% of its value, the house edge on a 96% slot. This video explains how my RTP spin calculator works and how to simply enter your deposit, stake and RTP of your chosen game to compare average playtime/spin quantities you can expect.

*Disclaimer - for now this is embedded in a specific page on my website which as you will see, as an approved CM webmeister, I always have an indirect link to in my signature anyway. I will however, endeavour to get this embedded in a post in this thread if possible ASAP so forum members can use it from the forum!

**This video is not age-gated as it's news/informational and has no gambling involved.

This change of RTP you talk about here, did it happen around 2020-21, or you mean you noticed this change only in that period?

 

[norad1fy]

Unibet is garbage if such practices are going on. But ive noticed something while registering in a casino in Holland. Auto-play disabled. Bet limits in effect. Bonus buy capped.

Im afraid they call it Responsible gambling
All the limitations you mentioned are - luckily - unknown to me, yet we need to remember that im from Poland and right now we have no official (and licensed) online casino in here.

So limitation is one thing, but banning it is even worse

 

[dunover]

This change of RTP you talk about here, did it happen around 2020-21, or you mean you noticed this change only in that period?

The trend towards nearly all developers offering alternative RTP models (meaning lower to ridculously low) began in earnest back around that time and also the amount of online casinos willing to offer reduced RTP models.

 

[Bencuri]

The trend towards nearly all developers offering alternative RTP models (meaning lower to ridculously low) began in earnest back around that time and also the amount of online casinos willing to offer reduced RTP models.

I have been playing online since 2007. There is one casino where I have been playing since then frequently,and this particular casino is the only one I have been playing since 2014. Generally, I was very satisfied playing slots online at the brands I play at. At this casino I referred to, the 2014-18 period was incredibly awesome for me, with winnings that never included a huge jackpot, but yet brought moments that I thought are only on films. The interesting is: after the awesome year of 2018, at the beginning of 2019, after 12 years of playing there, the slots suddenly changed. My winning sessions decreased seriously. There was a game for example, on which I won nearly in every session during the autumn of 2018, but since the beginning of 2019, I have hardly had any winning session on that game. Considering all the slots there alltogether, my winnings on slots decreased significantly compared to the averages of the years before 2019. I noticed this in every casino of that group. I think my experience is in connection with what you write here about RTP change.

However, I did notice similar tendencies or situations before as well. For example there was an old RTG casino called Breakaway casino that is already closed. I won there already during my first session, payout was not so bad, it was good to play there and for me they plaid all the time. There were some other RTG casinos where I enjoyed playing, too, however at Club World during 4 years I hit a bonus round only 1x. And I am not joking now. Sometimes I made a deposit there, and while at other RTG's I frequently hit a bous round on Fruit Frenzy, at Club World, out of 15-20 sessions during 4 years, I hit a bonus round only once. At Playtech I experienced much more consistency among casinos in this regard. Sadly most of Playtech only casinos closed or changed to mixed platform, so since then I have no experience there but before that I experienced much less inconsistency in slots payout. So I think at RTG this RTP modification have existed at least for a decade.

 

[slot_zombie]

Seems like the Stake "enhanced RTP" Pragmatic rollout has ground to a halt, at least for now, the last 98% slot release being Lucky Phoenix.

 

[satchnz]

Seems like the Stake "enhanced RTP" Pragmatic rollout has ground to a halt, at least for now, the last 98% slot release being Lucky Phoenix.

To be honest, the enhanced RTP Prag slots on Stake never did anything for me so I’ve avoided them since.

 

[deleted20230517]

Im afraid they call it Responsible gambling
All the limitations you mentioned are - luckily - unknown to me, yet we need to remember that im from Poland and right now we have no official (and licensed) online casino in here.

So limitation is one thing, but banning it is even worse

I play from south europe and luckily they dont offer limitations in that regard. You want a 10k bonus buy? No problem.

They do offer a full verification up front when you signup / register before you can even place one single bet, which is in my opinion alot better then the wildspread of casino registrations, being able to deposit and upon withdrawl hit you to death with SOW.