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Comments Welcome Rage against the Bonus....

Bonuses are Bogus

Thanks for writing this, I totally agree and I NEVER use match bonuses! I learned the hard way many years ago and I don't repeat mistakes! I also like knowing that if I miraculously do win I can cash out anytime. I just wish if and when I do that I can get my money back without those exorbitant fees and having to wait up to 20 days!!!

Good LUCK to you and to ALL..



THE BONUS:

AKA THE
BULLSHITTING OF NUMEROUS UNINFORMED SLOTTERS

OK, I've had enough of this archaic and unimagaintive crapola.

Bin the bloody things!

1. Times have changed - we need better ideas.
2. Cut the reams of terms and conditions by a third.
3. Cut PABs/disputes plus grief for casino CS.

Let's face it, "200% up to $2000!" screams the headline ad! And the gullible take it all in, not realizing the math is hopelessly EV- with ridiculous WR. Of course, you're not going to get easy money. So an 'attractive' 100% to £50 say? Only 35x B WR? Look closer. At those levels stakes will be low. 6 hours and thousands of spins later, you have actually cashed-in your bonus! Way-hey! You've earned 50 quid for 6 hours, about the same you'd get in MacDonald's.

Sod's law you win big and see it dribbled away chasing WR. Or you accidentally over-bet. Or you don't see that many slots are on the 'list of doom' for bonus play and yes! you wanted to play a few of them. You spend your 6 hours chipping away at WR, thinking "I'm nearly there!" Oh no you're not, because the sly f*ckers have a term which means unless you have played only slots by Gonorrhea Games the contribution is only 50 or 75%. 2 more hours needed - "Oh, NO! It's my bedtime now.."

I seldom take them now. Saves reading tedious terms and seeing my fave games excluded. I win when I win, not 6 hours later if I can hang in there long enough.

So, we have Trada say with cash feed-ins as you play so you get a %age but in cash. Withdraw when you want, you've earned it.

We have Guts and EU Casino etc. with no-wagering Free Games. Cash again, do with them as you will, win all you win.

So, how about CASH bonuses like Trada's? A decent wedge of FS with no wagering when you sign-up, subject to deposits/play?
Or, God forbid, a decent loyalty cash-scheme as you play like Videoslots does? None of this Microgaming crap whereby you play 10,000 quids' of games and you get a poxy tenner of points which need wagering 35x, but a decent plan?

Just think casinos - you'd retain players like Trada and VS do. Not just attract fly-by-night bonus-seekers most of whom won't deposit again once they realize how poor a proposition your 100% SUB was. You could thin your terms out, give your reps a breather on CM and let your CS have a few extra coffees or sessions with the emery-board.

COME ON! You can and should do better.....
 
At the moment there are very mixed feelings amongst the players on which they would prefer, so we're struggling with making a decision on it to be perfectly honest.
We could give the player the option of how regularly they want their cash-drops.

At the moment, it's £2 unlocked for every £70 wagered.

We could offer an option of £10 for every £350 wagered, or £50 every £1750 wagered. This way it would take much longer to access your cash, but at least by the time you reach the target you have a nice amount of real money to enjoy.

Would something like that work better for you?

Rachel.

Hi Rachel,

nice for you to take part in this discussion, really appreciate it.

My suggestion:

- at the moment you have a RED bar at the top showing the progress for the cashback or bonus
- make a second row below showing the accumulated cashback and a "REDEEM" button.
- the player can then redeem the cashback at any time he/she likes/needs it.

Saves the hassle of running weekly/monthly reports to credit cashback or for players to have to wait until day "X".
 
Fast paying Casinos

Hi Dunover,

I am glad I saw this, I have recently been complaing about those casinos that take a looong time to process withdrawals!
Can you tell me if any of these Fast Paying casinos accept US Players?

I'd appreciate any reply to this, thanks again.


THE BONUS:

AKA THE
BULLSHITTING OF NUMEROUS UNINFORMED SLOTTERS

OK, I've had enough of this archaic and unimagaintive crapola.

Bin the bloody things!

1. Times have changed - we need better ideas.
2. Cut the reams of terms and conditions by a third.
3. Cut PABs/disputes plus grief for casino CS.

Let's face it, "200% up to $2000!" screams the headline ad! And the gullible take it all in, not realizing the math is hopelessly EV- with ridiculous WR. Of course, you're not going to get easy money. So an 'attractive' 100% to £50 say? Only 35x B WR? Look closer. At those levels stakes will be low. 6 hours and thousands of spins later, you have actually cashed-in your bonus! Way-hey! You've earned 50 quid for 6 hours, about the same you'd get in MacDonald's.

Sod's law you win big and see it dribbled away chasing WR. Or you accidentally over-bet. Or you don't see that many slots are on the 'list of doom' for bonus play and yes! you wanted to play a few of them. You spend your 6 hours chipping away at WR, thinking "I'm nearly there!" Oh no you're not, because the sly f*ckers have a term which means unless you have played only slots by Gonorrhea Games the contribution is only 50 or 75%. 2 more hours needed - "Oh, NO! It's my bedtime now.."

I seldom take them now. Saves reading tedious terms and seeing my fave games excluded. I win when I win, not 6 hours later if I can hang in there long enough.

So, we have Trada say with cash feed-ins as you play so you get a %age but in cash. Withdraw when you want, you've earned it.

We have Guts and EU Casino etc. with no-wagering Free Games. Cash again, do with them as you will, win all you win.

So, how about CASH bonuses like Trada's? A decent wedge of FS with no wagering when you sign-up, subject to deposits/play?
Or, God forbid, a decent loyalty cash-scheme as you play like Videoslots does? None of this Microgaming crap whereby you play 10,000 quids' of games and you get a poxy tenner of points which need wagering 35x, but a decent plan?

Just think casinos - you'd retain players like Trada and VS do. Not just attract fly-by-night bonus-seekers most of whom won't deposit again once they realize how poor a proposition your 100% SUB was. You could thin your terms out, give your reps a breather on CM and let your CS have a few extra coffees or sessions with the emery-board.

COME ON! You can and should do better.....
 
A couple of years ago CM had some system on the forum which put a little dotted line under acronyms, and a "mouse over" produced a pop-up with the full meaning. I wonder whatever happened to that... :confused:

Anyway, I think the above 2 posts have it right - I can't think of anything not rude for FA - where did you see that?

KK

It's 'F*cking Affiliates' KK....:D:D
 
Hi Dunover,

I am glad I saw this, I have recently been complaing about those casinos that take a looong time to process withdrawals!
Can you tell me if any of these Fast Paying casinos accept US Players?

I'd appreciate any reply to this, thanks again.

Not if you're referring to my site. CM (here) or KK I believe have US-facing sites, but you won't really find any that pay fast (in the UK/European definition) not because of ill-intent but simple logistics. The US authorities have made it an a$$-pain to pay US players.
 
I am glad I saw this, I have recently been complaining about those casinos that take a looong time to process withdrawals!
Can you tell me if any of these Fast Paying casinos accept US Players?
I'd appreciate any reply to this, thanks again.
Well it all depends on what your definition of "fast" and "too long" actually are...?

As Dunover said, you definitely won't find any REALLY fast (= instant to less than 24 hours), but there are quite a few operators who pay in 24-72 hours to USA players.
iNetBet (accredited) claim to be the fastest, with withdrawals processed the same day you request them. Note that "processed" means it gets sent out from the casino - it can still take a couple of days to actually reach your bank.
These groups are apparently similarly quick: Sloto'Cash, Club World, Raging Bull, Tropica Group.

One new development (which I admit I do not know an awful lot about yet - it's my Easter homework :rolleyes:) is BitCoin.
Apparently withdrawals are instant! Maybe some USA players who have tried this can confirm?

The Sloto'Cash Group just added this as an option to their RTG casinos last week, and hope to get it added for their other software casinos in the very near future. Of the other casinos I list, it is also available at RB, SlotsLV, 5Dimes and Intertops. I THINK they are the only ones from the USA casinos I list, though as I said, I am still investigating this relatively new banking method.

KK
 
KK I have tried Bicoin and I was denied for some reason? I will try again in the near future and inform the forum of my progress. There is some myth's about Bitcoin being a cover for drug laundering and terrorist?
It may well be the part of the country I live in the northeast?The law in these part's is antiquated and the law maker's are even worse. They just outlawed betting parlor's or the football (NFL)wagering site's.
I don't have any experience with these kind's of wagering as I don't watch FB any more. I dislike the way that FB is played these day's and the money paid to just 1 player is outlandish.
Peace Out! Out Of The Mist! shewoff
 

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Rare use them and bit by bit im re-programming myself not to play with bonuses. And sure they are here to stay for the present time but wont cant be the main thing forever.

Videoslots have it just about right and I know they will continue to develop the way they do things.

Built in rewards based on play -

so so often the WR have messed up what could have been a decent cash out.

When you start to play bonus free its so much easier - any game any stake no terms - just straight deposit win or loose.

And I am a low roller at the moment but still manage to get play time and I end up with more cashouts overall that when playing with a bonus.

Even though for my life time im down around £$550000000000000000000000000 ................ :rolleyes:
 
Everyone should know how I feel about the whole bonus thing:
https://www.casinomeister.com/bonus-offers/

And talk to any operator, they are here to stay. Sure if all bonuses are banned world-wide, all it takes is one casino to offer one, and it's a domino effect.

Not much you can do about it but convince operators to have other means of promotional material. Free concert tickets - sporting events - trips to Malta :p etc.

From an operators point or view, or at least from this operators point of view, we would absolutely love to get rid of "pre wagering" based bonuses - generally any bonus that gets added to your account once you deposit but before you have placed any bets and has wagering requirements tied to it. As many of you know Rizk had originally planned not to have any "pre wagering" bonuses but it became clear that it just wasnt a sustainable plan - so we settled on having a single welcome bonus that was as clear as we could make it.

However even when we offer players the clear option to take or not to take a bonus over 80% of players take a bonus and without this bonus, an operators registration and conversion rates would be too low to justify the operations. Below is an illustration of our UK first deposit screen to illustrate the lengths that we have to go to but also the options a player has and the ease of accessing the terms.

Capture.webp

We try to be as clear as we possibly can, but a lot of terms and conditions exist because of the culture of bonus abuse that exists. Certainly this abuse happens more in certain countries than in other countries and we have to be aware of that. However the biggest problems come from syndicates of fraudulent bonus abusers/hackers etc that will sit and use bots to generate accounts and utilise certain payment methods that means that we then have to offset this by terms and conditions and unique operational procedures. It is a constant battle.

All this is not an excuse for not having clear terms but there have to be terms and conditions and it is more an explanation of the situation from the operators side of the fence, i cant speak for others but from our perspective having these t's and c's is the ONLY way that we can offer pre wager bonuses that players keep telling us that they want.

The big loser in all of this though is unfortunately the genuine casino player and i think that the industry is beginning to see some genuine alternatives to the "SUB" coming through and hopefully players will benefit from these in the longer term..

it is all well and good saying that 10 years ago a bonus was free or very little wagering - we are not in that age any longer and those days will never return. The more players vote with their feet and utilise "pre wagering" bonuses less, then the quicker that the industry will have to cater more to you or rizk losing their market share.
 
I like the bonus concept because it allows me more guilt-free gambling :p Deposit £100 , play with £200 . Get a long session of gambling with increased bets and don't have to worry about whether to cashout or not . Make wagering (it does happen sometimes !!) and insta cashout because I made it :D

The thing I don't like is stupid T & C and too many rules . But if they have to have these rules then at least make it impossible to break them like don't let ineligible slots load and physically enforce a max bet of £5 and disallow the "gamble" button etc .

Waiting until you win before pointing out that you broke one of their hidden rules is shady and typical of the one-sided balance of power in the "casino has the right to .." BS . Seems like casinos feel they can confiscate the players money for soo many reasons whilst the player has to jump through hoops just to get any money back and that's after the player has WILLINGLY used his money to play games in which the casino has the edge . The whole industry is screwed in this regard but hopefully the newer , better casinos and the increased competition , plus ofc this excellent site , will help to swing the balance of power more towards the player
 
From an operators point or view, or at least from this operators point of view, we would absolutely love to get rid of "pre wagering" based bonuses - generally any bonus that gets added to your account once you deposit but before you have placed any bets and has wagering requirements tied to it. As many of you know Rizk had originally planned not to have any "pre wagering" bonuses but it became clear that it just wasnt a sustainable plan - so we settled on having a single welcome bonus that was as clear as we could make it.

However even when we offer players the clear option to take or not to take a bonus over 80% of players take a bonus and without this bonus, an operators registration and conversion rates would be too low to justify the operations. Below is an illustration of our UK first deposit screen to illustrate the lengths that we have to go to but also the options a player has and the ease of accessing the terms.

View attachment 65404

We try to be as clear as we possibly can, but a lot of terms and conditions exist because of the culture of bonus abuse that exists. Certainly this abuse happens more in certain countries than in other countries and we have to be aware of that. However the biggest problems come from syndicates of fraudulent bonus abusers/hackers etc that will sit and use bots to generate accounts and utilise certain payment methods that means that we then have to offset this by terms and conditions and unique operational procedures. It is a constant battle.

All this is not an excuse for not having clear terms but there have to be terms and conditions and it is more an explanation of the situation from the operators side of the fence, i cant speak for others but from our perspective having these t's and c's is the ONLY way that we can offer pre wager bonuses that players keep telling us that they want.

The big loser in all of this though is unfortunately the genuine casino player and i think that the industry is beginning to see some genuine alternatives to the "SUB" coming through and hopefully players will benefit from these in the longer term..

it is all well and good saying that 10 years ago a bonus was free or very little wagering - we are not in that age any longer and those days will never return. The more players vote with their feet and utilise "pre wagering" bonuses less, then the quicker that the industry will have to cater more to you or rizk losing their market share.

You are also throwing out genuine players who use Neteller or Skrill as their major option, so in effect you are not offering these players the option of the initial welcome bonus, yet you say it's unsustainable to operate without using the lure of the initial welcome bonus.

You are not even getting Neteller players through the door, so they don't find out that you are essentially a casino that does not offer the traditional deposit bonus to regular players. Instead, they see that opening denial as an indication that Neteller players will forever be "second class players" when it comes to any kind of promotion you offer, so they walk away from the entrance rather than going through to find out that they haven't really missed anything other than a single welcome bonus, after which they are equal to all the rest of the players.

It's far more common for players of "Neteller hating" casinos to find that they can never use the various promotions on offer.

I am sure hackers and bot creators can "abuse" the promotions regardless of the deposit methods available, and they are not going to just walk away from a lucrative opportunity just because they have to fish out a bank card or nip down the shops for a voucher. In any case, the vouchers are run by Neteller anyway, they bought UKash, rebranded it to Paysafe, and opened up online voucher purchasing.

Players "in the know" have been aware for some time that Neteller will grass them up to casinos if they are making peer to peer transactions with other players, and with this information, casinos can easily connect a group of players who all just happen to be taking the SUB and playing it in a similar way to each other. Money can be moved just as fast via the banks, at least here in the UK, thanks to the new "faster payment" system that sees payments between bank accounts (including between players in a syndicate) happening within seconds in most cases. Unlike Neteller, the banks will NOT tell casinos with whom one of their players regularly transfers money, which will deprive casinos of a key piece of connecting evidence in determining which players are likely to be in syndication.

Bots will only work if a SUB is +EV, and casinos now avoid the trap of using a +EV sweetener bonus because it's not just bots that can beat them, a determined and disciplined player can also beat them. The lack of +EV Blackjack bonuses has pretty much killed off the traditional casino bot industry.
 
From an operators point or view, or at least from this operators point of view, we would absolutely love to get rid of "pre wagering" based bonuses - generally any bonus that gets added to your account once you deposit but before you have placed any bets and has wagering requirements tied to it. As many of you know Rizk had originally planned not to have any "pre wagering" bonuses but it became clear that it just wasnt a sustainable plan - so we settled on having a single welcome bonus that was as clear as we could make it.

However even when we offer players the clear option to take or not to take a bonus over 80% of players take a bonus and without this bonus, an operators registration and conversion rates would be too low to justify the operations. Below is an illustration of our UK first deposit screen to illustrate the lengths that we have to go to but also the options a player has and the ease of accessing the terms.

We try to be as clear as we possibly can, but a lot of terms and conditions exist because of the culture of bonus abuse that exists. Certainly this abuse happens more in certain countries than in other countries and we have to be aware of that. However the biggest problems come from syndicates of fraudulent bonus abusers/hackers etc that will sit and use bots to generate accounts and utilise certain payment methods that means that we then have to offset this by terms and conditions and unique operational procedures. It is a constant battle.

All this is not an excuse for not having clear terms but there have to be terms and conditions and it is more an explanation of the situation from the operators side of the fence, i cant speak for others but from our perspective having these t's and c's is the ONLY way that we can offer pre wager bonuses that players keep telling us that they want.

The big loser in all of this though is unfortunately the genuine casino player and i think that the industry is beginning to see some genuine alternatives to the "SUB" coming through and hopefully players will benefit from these in the longer term..

it is all well and good saying that 10 years ago a bonus was free or very little wagering - we are not in that age any longer and those days will never return. The more players vote with their feet and utilise "pre wagering" bonuses less, then the quicker that the industry will have to cater more to you or rizk losing their market share.

All fine and dandy Captain and we accept that there have to be rules when playing with a bonus :D

However, why on earth can't you have the following easy to program player protections:

- Excluded games - these games should not load once a bonus is active
- Max. bet - why and why can't you implement a max. bet protection when a bonus is active to avoid over betting?
- Deactivate "double" feature" - why can't this be deactivated while a bonus is active?

The above 3 are the most common reason for winnings confiscations and subsequent complaints. I can only assume it gives the casinos a nice extra profit by not having those features, hence nothing is done!!! :mad: :eek:

Anything above 20/25xB WR is -EV, hence most players will bust out before making the WR. Can't see how abuser syndicates make a profit in the long run. :confused:

Not allowing Neteller/Skrill/Ecopayz for bonuses means you are excluding 50+% of potential new players.
 
I don't take bonuses because of all the crap listed in the OP, dunover. It just isn't worth the hassle. There are a few caveats:

Trada's cash feed-in as i play and always withdrawable. No hassle.
VideoSlots monthly race for the same reason.
Any time a (reputable) casino emails me to tell me they "haven't seen me in a while so have put a £xx bonus in my account" (I'll play it off quickly before deciding to deposit).

Any other kind of bonus offer holds no appeal to me. I agree casinos need to come up with something better than the current spider's web of T's & C's people have to fight through.
 
All fine and dandy Captain and we accept that there have to be rules when playing with a bonus :D

However, why on earth can't you have the following easy to program player protections:

- Excluded games - these games should not load once a bonus is active
- Max. bet - why and why can't you implement a max. bet protection when a bonus is active to avoid over betting?
- Deactivate "double" feature" - why can't this be deactivated while a bonus is active?

The above 3 are the most common reason for winnings confiscations and subsequent complaints. I can only assume it gives the casinos a nice extra profit by not having those features, hence nothing is done!!! :mad: :eek:

Anything above 20/25xB WR is -EV, hence most players will bust out before making the WR. Can't see how abuser syndicates make a profit in the long run. :confused:

Not allowing Neteller/Skrill/Ecopayz for bonuses means you are excluding 50+% of potential new players.

Bet big and take as many boni as possible. However, a single player can do this just as easily as a syndicate. I suspect that many of these syndicates actually have a very small number of active players, the other members are just getting paid off for allowing an expert to operate a casino account using their ID.

The lazy option is to simply blanket ban ALL players who fit a certain broad profile, so many casinos take the lazy option of showing Neteller users the middle finger rather than tackling those that are operating some kind of syndicate.

I also wonder how many of the 80% of players who take the bonuses, but go elsewhere if none is on offer, actually understand how bad a deal it is in many cases. Casinos have resorted to some pretty misleading marketing lures to make their SUB offerings look far better than they are, and if players don't read the small print, they will have little idea what a raw deal they are really getting.

As well as Neteller hating casinos, there has been a sharp rise in casino hating card issuers, which is WHY so many players have been pushed into using solutions like Neteller. I have dozen bank cards, some credit and some debit. Only ONE of these works smoothly for online casino deposits, another will keep tripping out if I try to deposit more than £100, and then I have to wait for the automated call from the bank to allow that one deposit through on the next attempt, by which time I have moved on and used Neteller elsewhere. All the other cards have failed 100%, and it seems to be the banks that are blocking the transactions, having tarred ALL casinos with the same brush by blanket marking such transactions as fraud triggers, and thus blocking them at source by default.

All the other methods are a massive pain given that I have Neteller. I have to nip down the local shop, train the cashier in how to use this rather obscure functionality of the pay point terminal that is normally used for topping up pre-pay electric meters and paying water and council tax charges, and even then all but one local shop failed to produce what was then called UKash, but is now Neteller's Paysafe voucher service. If this isn't hassle enough, the largest denomination available is £100, so if there are any deposit promos requiring more than this in a single deposit, Paysafe won't work, and Neteller isn't eligible.

In the case of Trada, only the SUB is affected, but of course this is something they have had to concede is necessary to get players through the door, yet at the same time they are freezing out some 50% of potential players from passing through this main marketing doorway, leaving the only way to attract these players the non deposit related cashback and loyalty system, which the rep has already admitted isn't a viable option for driving new signups.

It's also a poor reflection of Neteller that they simply don't care that their lax attitude to syndicates and bonus fraud has driven casinos to such extremes, which of course means a poor service to Neteller's customers is given by these casinos.

Simply offering Neteller customers nothing, rather than an alternative sign up offer less suited to syndicates, isn't going to be of long term benefit.

I am also surprised that no one has stepped into this gap in the market to provide a system that works like Neteller, but is secured from misuse by syndicates. Not allowing P2P transactions is one obvious way to tackle the problem of syndicates, but P2P is a big money spinner for Neteller, and an expansion beyond their core business offering of easy gambling deposits and withdrawals. Allowing Bitcoin deposits into Neteller may be good for customers, but it's yet another risk factor for casinos, and also a way for syndicates to bypass the Neteller P2P systems and monitoring, but without having to use conventional banks where the transactions are just as fast, but also likely to be monitored and reported to HMRC if the amounts or volume arouse suspicion. The last thing a syndicate needs is a big tax bill from HMRC because the banks have reported so many transactions that HMRC are convinced the syndicate leader is running a business, but not declaring the profits for tax.
 
Bet big and take as many boni as possible. However, a single player can do this just as easily as a syndicate. I suspect that many of these syndicates actually have a very small number of active players, the other members are just getting paid off for allowing an expert to operate a casino account using their ID.

I get that but still, the boni being heavily -EV (many are now 40-60 x B WR) and on top the house edge, I just can't see playing online slots with boni, even for abuser syndicates with 100 accounts at one casino to be profitable, especially if they pay part of the profits to the phantom account holders.

I stopped counting the amount of times (probably well over 100x) I took max. amount for the 100% DOTD at 32RED (giving me a total of 400$ to play with) and go for 6-15$ bets just to bust out within minutes. Not a chance in HELL to make it to a withdrawal. Once in a blue moon it works out in my favor, by that time I probably spent 10 x that profit amount in the previous sessions.

In the long run it will catch up with you, no matter if you play with 1 or 100 accounts. I can see the syndicate thing being profitable only when the bonuses are 25xB WR or less.

Or am I completely wrong?
 
I get that but still, the boni being heavily -EV (many are now 40-60 x B WR) and on top the house edge, I just can't see playing online slots with boni, even for abuser syndicates with 100 accounts at one casino to be profitable, especially if they pay part of the profits to the phantom account holders.

I stopped counting the amount of times (probably well over 100x) I took max. amount for the 100% DOTD at 32RED (giving me a total of 400$ to play with) and go for 6-15$ bets just to bust out within minutes. Not a chance in HELL to make it to a withdrawal. Once in a blue moon it works out in my favor, by that time I probably spent 10 x that profit amount in the previous sessions.

In the long run it will catch up with you, no matter if you play with 1 or 100 accounts. I can see the syndicate thing being profitable only when the bonuses are 25xB WR or less.

Or am I completely wrong?

You have to choose the right games for it to work. Medium variance might be better than high variance for a smaller syndicate. It's very hard to grasp, but the Wizard of Odds came up with a calculation based on the "depth charge" playing strategy for slots that demonstrates how a large syndicate can make a long term profit even though they may suffer short term losses like 100 failed attempts in a row. This was from years ago, long before the casinos were being hit by slots syndicates, and back in the "good old days" where grinding out the WR on Blackjack could produce small, but steady, profits due to this being slightly +EV. This was also the era of the Blackjack playing bot, which was designed to grind out WR on BJ over many hours and on many accounts whilst the syndicate members did something else, like go to work or watch a movie. Single players with a big enough bankroll could easily match the syndicates, and they kept 100% of their profits.

Some syndicates avoid overheads by not even asking the others if they will allow their ID to be used. There are some players who just don't play online casinos, and have no idea that they have been a member of such a syndicate.

Of course, the key weakness in the system is the pre wager bonus that you can dip into right from the start. A post wager bonus, or other schemes like cashback or loyalty points, can't be used in this way. If Trada manage to get this right, and operate it in a way that makes players feel they are getting a big chunk of "free money" in the same way a deposit bonus achieves this, but without the novel that passes for bonus terms and conditions, they may be able to break the mould.

Resorting to the one off SUB may actually backfire as it slams the door in the face of Neteller users, and of course needs a one off novel to be read by users of other deposit methods.


As with the IT security industry now employing the best hackers, it may be beneficial for casinos to employ some cutting edge advantage players and set them the task of "abusing" their offers and promotions, and then writing up a summary of HOW they did it, and what the casino could have done to prevent it.
 
You have to choose the right games for it to work. Medium variance might be better than high variance for a smaller syndicate. It's very hard to grasp, but the Wizard of Odds came up with a calculation based on the "depth charge" playing strategy for slots that demonstrates how a large syndicate can make a long term profit even though they may suffer short term losses like 100 failed attempts in a row. This was from years ago, long before the casinos were being hit by slots syndicates, and back in the "good old days" where grinding out the WR on Blackjack could produce small, but steady, profits due to this being slightly +EV. This was also the era of the Blackjack playing bot, which was designed to grind out WR on BJ over many hours and on many accounts whilst the syndicate members did something else, like go to work or watch a movie. Single players with a big enough bankroll could easily match the syndicates, and they kept 100% of their profits.

Some syndicates avoid overheads by not even asking the others if they will allow their ID to be used. There are some players who just don't play online casinos, and have no idea that they have been a member of such a syndicate.

Of course, the key weakness in the system is the pre wager bonus that you can dip into right from the start. A post wager bonus, or other schemes like cashback or loyalty points, can't be used in this way. If Trada manage to get this right, and operate it in a way that makes players feel they are getting a big chunk of "free money" in the same way a deposit bonus achieves this, but without the novel that passes for bonus terms and conditions, they may be able to break the mould.

Resorting to the one off SUB may actually backfire as it slams the door in the face of Neteller users, and of course needs a one off novel to be read by users of other deposit methods.

As with the IT security industry now employing the best hackers, it may be beneficial for casinos to employ some cutting edge advantage players and set them the task of "abusing" their offers and promotions, and then writing up a summary of HOW they did it, and what the casino could have done to prevent it.

Sure thing Vinyl, it was possible to make a profit in the past with very low WR and BJ being allowed for WR grinding. Did that myself plenty of times, was the easiest way to make some money which i regularly blew pretty recklessly then on high variance slots :D :rolleyes:

But today with a 40x or 50xB WR or take Energy with 60xB WR on the SUB, no BJ or Roulette allowed, high variance games only counting 50-70% or even less towards WR, maximum bet of 5-7.50$ while having the bonus etc etc., it just seems impossible.

I have tried calculations in different directions (medium, low, high variance slots) but have yet to come to a result where it becomes profitable in the long run, even when i went up to 1000 accounts to claim the SUB that many times at one casino, unless of course i am not smart enough to do the right calculations. :o

I fully agree though, Trada and Videoslots are on the right track with their reward systems :thumbsup:
 
Sure thing Vinyl, it was possible to make a profit in the past with very low WR and BJ being allowed for WR grinding. Did that myself plenty of times, was the easiest way to make some money which i regularly blew pretty recklessly then on high variance slots :D :rolleyes:

But today with a 40x or 50xB WR or take Energy with 60xB WR on the SUB, no BJ or Roulette allowed, high variance games only counting 50-70% or even less towards WR, maximum bet of 5-7.50$ while having the bonus etc etc., it just seems impossible.

I have tried calculations in different directions (medium, low, high variance slots) but have yet to come to a result where it becomes profitable in the long run, even when i went up to 1000 accounts to claim the SUB that many times at one casino, unless of course i am not smart enough to do the right calculations. :o

I fully agree though, Trada and Videoslots are on the right track with their reward systems :thumbsup:

This would surely make syndicates redundant, so why the overkill with the Neteller ban, not just at Trada, but at many other casinos too?

Maybe the cutting edge advantage players have managed to come up with some even better calculations that means that even with high WR and a low max bet they can still work out away to make an overall profit if they can get 1000 attempts.
 
As with the IT security industry now employing the best hackers, it may be beneficial for casinos to employ some cutting edge advantage players and set them the task of "abusing" their offers and promotions, and then writing up a summary of HOW they did it, and what the casino could have done to prevent it.

Oh, you're asking for a job offer ;)
 
My overall mindset on the original OP has been changed, not sure whether it is a temporary thing or not.....

Yesterday alone

32 WW of Rhinos - £96.00
3 Reel Wild Desire - £60.75
Good Sarah bonus - £117.00

End Result £40 losses due to WR!

Did not dip into bonus funds at any point so would have banked at least 5x deposits :(
 
At those levels stakes will be low. 6 hours and thousands of spins later, you have actually cashed-in your bonus! Way-hey! You've earned 50 quid for 6 hours, about the same you'd get in MacDonald's.

I don't think this is a good example. Comparing fun that 6 hours of playing slot brings to 6 hours of working at McDonalds, might suggest you're indeed not enjoying gambling as much as you used to and it's not just about bonuses :cool::p

To me gambling is entertainment, like playing video games etc. If I can play my favourite computer game for 6 hours instead of 3 - I'll be happy. Same with gambling. The point is to have fun, not "get this over with". Bonuses help with that. By the way it often happens that I keep playing even though my turnover has already finished. That means playing without bonus would be a lose-lose situation. Hit an run players might prefer no bonus game though...

I do agree however that t&c got pretty convoluted. If a casino could come up with a fresh bonus idea, that at the same time won't make them go bankrupt or anything - that could give them a huge marketing edge. Obviously a lot of other casinos would soon copy that bonus system lol
 
From my experience, I decided not to take welcome or other bonuses. The amount of wagering is usually ridiculous and I do not enjoy the game until Im done with wagering, because I feel that any money I win is not mine and that I am going to lose it anyway before fulflling the WR (which happens to me 90% of the time)!
At times I deposited with no bonus, if I had a big win I would withdraw it and be happy. If I'd lose all my money - oh well, I would have lost it with the bonus in place anyway!
 
I haven't read the other posts about this.

My current view on this topic is; taking away bonuses will solve some of the problems but I do not believe bonuses are the main problem.
I think the main problem is; if online casinos don't want to pay there is no way to make them pay or it is very hard to make them pay.

At smaller land-based casinos, I've been shouted at by cashiers for politely enquiring how long I will have to wait for my jackpot win to be paid. And I have a list of other conflicts with casino staff which occurred straight after winning. I don't think it's coincidental or the problem is with me, I think they just don't like to pay.

And I'm sure if there wasn't a court house and an office full of eager lawyers down the road, these land based casinos would try and steal or look for some reason or another, not to pay. I feel that some kind of consumer law enforcement is the missing ingredient for online casinos and that problem is bigger than bonuses causing problems.
 
100% agree . The casinos have the edge in the casino games but they also have an unnecessary edge in deciding whether or not to pay out after things like minor T&C "violations" and reverse withdrawals and all the other little tricks they have of trying to keep your money from you
 
yea, I think bonuses do suck too!!! Just put $50 in yesterday with a 216% bonus and have already lost it all! Raging Bull and Uptown Aces ALWAYS ENTICE players with the bonuses they provide, only to see it almost never pan out for the player!!!!
 

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