Pulver VS Lock Casino

[Zack]

Really

Really good question RedAndi..
not getting it from me

 

[jelsmith]

Why would they need a BC?

I dont know. I think it may have been because I had just gotten married and my DL didnt match my new last name at the time....(im only guessing they never did tell me why)......I thought it was WEIRD too.....but like I said max said they were okie dokie so I gave it.

 

[maxd]

Ok, enough of the funny business. Here's the official statement from Lock:

Lock has come into the industry with a very different and innovative idea: invest in the player every day. We put our faith in the casino player and the relationship we have with them. This has unfortunately resulted in us having attracted several groups of people that have tried to take advantage of us and the trust concept we've championed. Fraud and identity theft rings, and groups creating hundreds of accounts to redeem the daily bonuses on each one. Since we do not use the lowest common denominator to develop our marketing strategies it is important that the proper due diligence be done in order to make sure that we are not being taken advantage of. This case required that the due diligence process be completed before we could proceed.

Based on the evidence available Lock has made the decision to verify the player's account and honor his winnings.

We have worked hard to take the player experience to the next level: we have built our own game exclusion tool as we realized that a lot of players were losing their winnings based on not really understanding bonus terms; we have also built an automated Cash back redemption tool so that after each and every deposit you can redeem what you are owed rather than forcing you to to contact live support or do the mail-in rebate; we have been the pioneers of fast, often same-day, pay-outs; we do not want to use the "fine print" to manipulate the player. We want to provide you with a great, fair experience.

I know many of you have formed your opinions about online casinos based on your experiences and so many of those have been negative. What I would ask is that you have as much faith in us as we have in you. You can help us to force other casino operators to be better, more honest and stop taking advantage of the player. With your support I really believe we can take the online casino to a much better place for both the player and the operator.

Jennifer Larson
CEO | FOUNDER

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I've moved the off-topic stuff here: Misc and beer talk.

 

[Pulver]

Finally this very unpleasant situation has come a conclusion! It is not a pleasant feeling to win such a big amount of money and then to be put under suspicion and investigation for unknown reasons aftewards. But I want to thank Max for his assistance in this matter, I am shure his involvement expedited the process. :notworthy

Having a Kronenbourg 1664 (Best beer out there after Newcastle Brown Ale? ) now. Finally I can celebrate the win! and going to Vegas in a months time.

Cheers!

 

[Pinababy69]

Outstanding result, and really glad to hear that Pulver will be receiving his winnings!!

And a pox on those players/groups who decide to make an easy living off of trying to rip off casinos, by dishonest means...thus leading to "investigations" such as this. And unnecessary delays for honest players.

 

[maxd]

It is not a pleasant feeling to win such a big amount of money and then to be put under suspicion and investigation for unknown reasons aftewards.

I have a suggestion that might help you in the future: when the casino asks for your identity papers DON'T black out all the numbers. That automatically puts the security drones on high alert and things can deteriorate rapidly from there.

 

[takethemoney]

I have a suggestion that might help you in the future: when the casino asks for your identity papers DON'T black out all the numbers. That automatically puts the security drones on high alert and things can deteriorate rapidly from there.

Where I live identity theft is at an all time high. I think many times people are afraid to have their numbers out there, where they could potentially be circulating around. I got paranoid when an employer wanted a photo copy of my social security card and driver's license. BTW, a casino should never ask for your SS card...I'd never give em that.

Glad you're getting your money, Pulver!

 

[RedAndi]

I have a suggestion that might help you in the future: when the casino asks for your identity papers DON'T black out all the numbers. That automatically puts the security drones on high alert and things can deteriorate rapidly from there.

Hey max what numbers are being blacked out?
I have seen some members say they block some of their CC out, which I never have done, I figure they already have the numbers why bother!
Do people block numbers on drivers licenses and stuff?

 

[maxd]

I think many times people are afraid to have their numbers out there....

I get that, but you've got to consider the casino's need to be certain that you are who you say you are. The variations and permutations on bogus identity that I've seen makes me pity the casino security people's jobs: it's a jungle out there and they have to make sense of it.

Sure, I understand this identity verification stuff is a pain in the wazoo for the innocent folk but the unfortunate truth of it is that the black-hat guys force the game so .... It's not easy for anybody and being oblivious to the casino's needs in this regard doesn't help much.

The BAM crowd is now going to want to tear me a new one I suppose.

Do people block numbers on drivers licenses and stuff?

Yup. I've seen cases where people take their passport scan and black out every single number on it. Bad idea. If they wanted a picture framed in black felty they would have asked for that.

 

[chayton]

Awesome! Congrats Pulver! :yahoo: Don't give it ALL to Vegas!

 

[P.V.]

I have a suggestion that might help you in the future: when the casino asks for your identity papers DON'T black out all the numbers. That automatically puts the security drones on high alert and things can deteriorate rapidly from there.

The verification process isn't that difficult, players should be able to provide proof of identify without providing information or exposing themself to potential identity theft. A SSN should never be presented in full, that's plain and simple unless someone is doing a full background check. Why does a player need a full background check done for online gaming? The main concern is that the player is who they say they are and have meet the age requirements for playing online and that's it. This can be done by a USA DL which doesn't need to be blacked out or a birth certificate US or abroad. When inside the UK I understand that many don't have a DL so other forms of ID will apply. When casinos want to see your Credit Card numbers there is no need to provide the entire card number unless you provided it by phone and this would be an exception. Online you should be required to provide the last 4 digits and that should be fine, the rest can be blacked out. Protect yourself as we know they are not all accredited casino's.

 

[maxd]

Two things should be taken into consideration here:

1) The player is from Norway. Assuming US residency and practices is not appropriate.

2) Telling the casino what they should and should not need when you're trying to get yourself cleared at the casino is always the player's choice, of course, but they can then look to themselves for at least some responsibility if the whole thing goes pear-shaped.

And one bonus thing to consider:

+1) It's true, "The verification process isn't that difficult" under normal circumstances. In the case where the casino already has a problem with the player's ID, for whatever reason, then the process becomes markedly more complicated and thus more difficult: the usual metrics no longer apply and the player wishing for a successful resolution of their issue would be wise to fully cooperate.

The context of all this is critical: casinos have legions of fraudsters and scammers banging at the gates every hour of every day. That is seldom taken into account when people make judgments about what casinos should and should not do in the conduct of their business.

Having dealt with this reality in some detail and for some time now I can say with certainty that reputable casinos don't run verification procedures on players for fun. It costs them time and money to do so and the only reason it is worth doing so is that they'll get robbed blind if they don't.

If everyone would take that reality into consideration for just 30 seconds I think there would be a lot more understanding of why casinos do what they do when it comes to these sorts of issues.

 

[Nifty29]

If everyone would take that reality into consideration for just 30 seconds I think there would be a lot more understanding of why casinos do what they do when it comes to these sorts of issues.

Why do that?

Its easier just to grab the torches, run out to the town square and light that pyre!!

 

[maxd]

Its easier just to grab the torches, run out to the town square and light that pyre!!

Indeed, as recent examples here at CM so amply demonstrate, and let's not forget how much more invigorating a liberal dose of pontification and moral outrage can be than your garden variety, pedestrian, fair and balanced view.

 

[jetset]

Great news Pulver, and well done Max.

 

[maxd]

Frankly it was all the Lock team's doing: they did what they said they'd do and they did it as promptly as possible.

As to the OP's reports of poor communications with Lock I'm still trying to piece that together. I can't say anything conclusive yet but from what I've seen elsewhere and on other cases dropping the ball like this would be very unlike Lock's people.

 

[vinylweatherman]

I have a suggestion that might help you in the future: when the casino asks for your identity papers DON'T black out all the numbers. That automatically puts the security drones on high alert and things can deteriorate rapidly from there.

Don't forget that often we are following GOVERNMENT advice, and that of our BANKS when it comes to blacking out certain numbers.

Casinos never say WHY they need certain documents, or certain parts of such documents, so the ONLY advice in this respect that players have is that of their respective governments and banks. The fear of identity theft can lead to over zealous blacking out of too much, just as a cavalier attitude can lead to blacking out nothing, and then becoming a victim because the details have somehow leaked.

These leaks of personal data happen, even the UK Government has come under fire for some high profile leaks. This is generating fear among ordinary people, and some are taking things to extremes.

One thing that puzzles me is why players shouldn't be dictating to casinos what they require to verify players, yet casinos see fit to dictate to MY GOVERNMENT what forms of ID they should issue to UK citizens. The UK government does NOT issue ID cards, but relies on a database, yet casinos always assume a UK player without an ID card of the type found in many other countries is "up to something".

In the USA, it is ILLEGAL to request the Social Security Number of someone UNLESS you are authorised by the US authorities to hold & process such data. There is no way an unauthorised agent can run checks on this number, so US players should black this out, and this should not be a problem for casinos. Similarly, the passport NUMBER should always be blacked out, since it is IRRELEVANT to anybody other than border control. At least ONE such item should ALWAYS be blacked out on a document, as this renders it pretty useless for most forms of misuse, but often the problem is deciding which numbers are important.

As far as players are told, ID verification is to check our age (old enough to play), and our name and address match our deposit methods, and are backed up by other forms of verification. No need for passport numbers, but equally a need to show address where it is present on the original document, since this information has ALREADY been given to the casino.

Banks say NEVER provide the 3 digit security number on the back of a card, and black out at least 4 digits, and that ONLY the last 4 digits and sometimes the first 4/6 are likely to be required. The first 4/6 is a code for the card issuer, and the last four is only PART of the card account number. Everything else on the card should be shown (name, expiry date, etc).

A central player verification process would be a great benefit, but the two contributions by P.V in this thread seem to be nothing more than "plugs" for his own business, that is a mere 30 days old, and has no participating casinos of any worth, at least at present. It's also based in the US, odd for a business seeking to verify players for online casinos in the main. I would prefer a consortium of the main software vendors and bigger casino operators to set up a central player verification service, to give it some start-up "clout" from which further expansion could ocurr.

 

[bernynhel]

OK Bern, I agree that communication is extremely important when it comes to online casinos as they are faceless entities, and emails and phone calls are about as real as it gets when it comes to personal casino-to-customer contact. Pulver should have been told much earlier that the matter was in the hands of RTG and that they are not willing to provide any timeframe. Lock should then have promised to contact Pulver with any updates.

However.....I dont see the point of emailing him every day to say 'we havent heard anything yet' when he has been told that it is out of their hands and that they would contact him when the report had been received and examined....

That would be absurd, wouldn't it??? LOL. Why I never said it. And since I just combed all of my posts in this thread looking for words that do not exist nor ever have existed, please excuse me if I don't bother top spend more time to post my actual words, here, again.

...Could it have been handled better by Lock initially? Yes. Is Lock deliberately trying to stall the payout? No. Is the whole delay situation down to Lock? No. Hence, IMO Lock are being lambasted when they are not responsible for the crux of Pulvers' gripe - the ongoing delays...

You answer each of your own questions, above, as if all the facts are in. And as they are not, I fail to see how your opinion, which can only be based, entirely, on your imagination, can possibly be considered to be "helpful." Your conclusion, that Lock is being "lambasted" when the converse of every statement you made in support of that conclusion may very well be the facts, for all we know, personally, offends me, as a player. Unless you have personal motives for drawing such conclusions about the OP that you're not mentioning, I just don't get it.

Even if Lock had told Pulver on day one that they had no idea how long it would take to resolve the issue, IMO he would still have posted about the delay (and understandably so) so it would not have prevented this thread all...

Of course you are entitled to your opinion, and I might be inclined to agree if only you weren't so wrong! That a thread might exist by the OP, no matter what, I cannot disprove and was never my claim. I do maintain that this thread would not exist and, moreover, I need offer no other proof than your own statement which you used as the sole basis for forming your opinion: "...if Lock had told Pulver on day one that they had no idea how long it would take to resolve the issue..." "If" can only mean that something other than what follows "if" is what actually happened which can only mean that what, actually, follows "if" is entirely hypothetical. Furthermore, the hypothetical circumstances you cite are just that, hypotheses. Since Lock did not inform the OP on day one, the facts which might have prompted the OP to begin a thread under those circumstances never existed. The facts which inspired this thread are unique when compared to any hypothetical facts one might imagine - this you have just proved by your own statement. In conclusion, your statement, "if Lock had told Pulver on day one that they had no idea how long it would take to resolve the issue" is, in itself, proof positive that this thread could not possibly exist under any other set of facts and, absolutely, would not exist had Lock informed Pulver on "day one".

Might Pulver have started some thread anyway? Maybe. But I don't know Pulver well enough to form such an opinion so any opinion I could possibly offer would, therefore, be entirely based on some combination of bias and/or prejudice. Might have Pulver started this thread under any different set of circumstances? By your own statement: No way!

 

[vinylweatherman]

Yes, my main objection is far and away the time Lock took to inform OP that RTG was driving the bus, given there is nothing Lock can offer to contradict the OP on this point.

I think the casino should only email every day in reply to daily inquires initiated by the cusomer, not just to make it a daily chore. Of course daily emails with nothing new to say would be redundant. This is a subjective matter to which degree will always be an arguing point, depending on the participants.

So WHY were RTG driving the bus. They are merely the software provider, but it seems they were given the player's personal information, including the document images, to conduct their verification, IN COSTA RICA

What kind of privacy laws govern our data once it has left the casino and been forwarded to RTG themselves. This is the first I have heard about it being common practice for RTG HQ to verify player documents, even if only in SOME cases. I always assumed this was done by the CASINO, and ALWAYS in a secure location with appropriate laws protecting storage and use of the information.

Initially, I assumed it was GAME LOGS that RTG were looking into, which they WOULD have access to, but which equally would NOT compromise a player's personal information. I think much of the speculation later revolved around RTG looking deep into the play logs for a reason to void the payout, the documents already having been verified by the casino.

This is just as bad as a revelation a while back that some Playtech casinos send player's documents to offices in the Philipines to carry out verification, and the worry that this rendered the information less secure because it was being passed around, rather than being tightly controlled.

 

[TonyT]

I am not jumpimg back into this to fan the fire or kick up some dirt at Lock.

I am just a bit confused as to why RTG had to get involved in the verification process.

In earlier posts in was out of locks hand and then max said "Frankly it was all the Lock team's doing: they did what they said they'd do and they did it as promptly as possible."

Since when goes RTG or any other software provider need a players docs? Thats the confusion and question i have here.

I had a prob at one time with playersonly holding back a payment cuz of something on my docs, and i had a very big win but never did they have to go to the software provider to do anything other then check my play history and make sure it was a legit win.

It's great that they honored Pulvers win don't get me wrong there but for RTG to have to get into the docs is a bit wierd.

 

[vinylweatherman]

I am not jumpimg back into this to fan the fire or kick up some dirt at Lock.

I am just a bit confused as to why RTG had to get involved in the verification process.

In earlier posts in was out of locks hand and then max said "Frankly it was all the Lock team's doing: they did what they said they'd do and they did it as promptly as possible."

Since when goes RTG or any other software provider need a players docs? Thats the confusion and question i have here.

I had a prob at one time with playersonly holding back a payment cuz of something on my docs, and i had a very big win but never did they have to go to the software provider to do anything other then check my play history and make sure it was a legit win.

It's great that they honored Pulvers win don't get me wrong there but for RTG to have to get into the docs is a bit wierd.

It's not JUST about RTG having the docs, it is WHERE they are located. If Microgaming were passed player details, they are at least in the Isle of Man, and would be expected to have high standards for the storage and transmission of this sensitive data.

RTG will STILL happily license their software to Virtual, and this is the kind of entity we are supposed to trust with our documents as well. It is one thing trusting an accredited RTG casino with such documents, and quite another trusting RTG, and whoever they then subcontract to carry out the verification.

If RTG want us to trust them with our player data, they can start by demonstrating due dilligence, rather than licensing the software to every Tom, Dick, or Teddy who is willing to pay the fees.

 

[bernynhel]

So WHY were RTG driving the bus...

I don't know. Why were RTG driving the bus?

Possible answers:

To run over the chicken which was crossing the street.

Because the trampoline hadn't arrived yet.

Because the bus wasn't self-motivating.

They had been considering making a career change and, as "bus driver" was one that made the short list, actually driving a bus had been on their "do do" list for a while now and, well, the day finally came!

And why are you quoting me??? LOL (you got me before I finished editing and by the time i finished i had completely changed the post - my bad!!)

 

[bernynhel]

Bern, I have to say this, I preferred your other avitar over this pink butt in my face, although the tatto is kind neat. No offense.

What color butt, then? "In your face", I mean? No offense taken!

 

[maxd]

Looks to me like you folks are just kicking the can to hear it rattle. Closed for the time being. If someone has something they gotta say let one of us know via PM or somesuch.

Later: It seems worthwhile mentioning that the various speculations on what was being investigated and why, not to mention how and in what way, are just that, pure speculation. I could speculate that the OP was being investigated because his name produced the anagram "Ain't Got No Underpants" and I'd be about as close to the mark. Give it up! It's just hot air and contributes nothing.