Providers moving the goal posts

[dionysus]

The fact that powerhouse providers like....Booongo (snarf) and companies in the industry *can* and *do* display bent behaviour is reason enough to distrust casino companies as a whole. Nuff said!

there's a few members have come into the forum and have tried to pull fast ones on casinos and cm.
ergo, all members should be distrusted?

 

[Playford7]

there's a few members have come into the forum and have tried to pull fast ones on casinos and cm.
ergo, all members should be distrusted?

Just the Canadians ;-)

 

[dionysus]

Just the Canadians ;-)

I'll be sure to let maxd know

 

[Kroffe]

I'll be sure to let maxd know

Yeah, like we can trust you to actually do it.
Ill do it myself.

 

[paul7388]

Yeah, like we can trust you to actually do it.
Ill do it myself.

You look different today.

Can't figure out why tho, is it a new haircut or something.

 

[Kroffe]

You look different today.

Can't figure out why tho, is it a new haircut or something.

I may have forgot to save my original look before putting on my halloween outfit.
Im sure the moustache will grow back some day. =)

 

[snorky510238]

If my livelihood depended on the gaming industry I would say it’s all random. I would honestly.

 

[goatwack]

If my livelihood depended on the gaming industry I would say it’s all random. I would honestly.

I'll meet you tomorrow at Cash Converters, say 11?

 

[snorky510238]

I'll meet you tomorrow at Cash Converters, say 11?

I wonder just how much of their business is directly linked to gambling. One hell of a chunk I would say. I remember a Ladbrokes I used to frequent back in the day had one opposite.

You would see the locals disappear on a Saturday to go home and get any old junk that may scrape them a fiver, straight back across to the bookies rinse repeat, rinse repeat.

The gaming industry must have made them millions.

 

[Halvor]

Let's just ignore all the fair points from trance, because this is the one that really baffles me.

If all the tinfoil hats really think the industry is so bad and corrupted, why don't you stop gambling?

 

[Halvor]

Almost... If it was completely random those big wins wouldn't be concentrated on the same couple of hours of the same day but scattered throughout every single day.

Book of Ra has this same habit, sometimes you'll see a concentration of tens of big wins in an hour time... Then days of nothingness.

I'm sure all that's classified as random in legal speak but for the player it doesn't seem like it. But there is no reason to discuss this with you because you'll say it's random and completely by the book, which is most likely 100% true.

Against my better judgment, can you kindly give us your understanding of what random actually means?

 

[sufferinsilence]

Against my better judgment, can you kindly give us your understanding of what random actually means?

There isn't really a reason to go into a discussion because I've already said that it's most likely 100% true what trance said. I can't prove anything, simple as that. I just noticed what I noticed. That's about it.

I'd also love a wildline on DOA but @Kroffe steals all those.

 

[sufferinsilence]

Let's just ignore all the fair points from trance, because this is the one that really baffles me.

If all the tinfoil hats really think the industry is so bad and corrupted, why don't you stop gambling?

Because gamblers will be gamblers and need to have a moan now and then I also moan when my sportsbets are going in the wrong direction, just not on here

 

[Kroffe]

There isn't really a reason to go into a discussion because I've already said that it's most likely 100% true what trance said. I can't prove anything, simple as that. I just noticed what I noticed. That's about it.

I'd also love a wildline on DOA but @Kroffe steals all those.

 

[LoopsterAU]

Do you think that IGT or SG (for example) would risk their entire company in order to break the law and work, illegally, with all other vendors (competitiors) to get the exact same outcome that a truly random game would provide?

Do you even think through the hypothesis that you are making? If either of those companies were caught, they would instantly lose every licence to operate that they had which would, overnight, close down the company.

And you honestly think they would do this in order to make games behave in the exact same way that a random game does? That's a whole different level of crazy right there...

All these threads suffer from the exact same argument from ignorance, or the negative proof fallacy "No one can prove they are NOT rigged, so therefore they are." And they also suffer from the exact same issue in that no one has given a single cogent argument as to why providers would do all this illegal, morally bankrupt activity in order to product the exact same type of game play that happens with a legal, random game.

It defies all common sense, logic and reasoning. It makes no sense at all.

And yet people sit on these threads with little to no knowledge of what actually happens and claim some omniscience about the way the industry works.

It really does amaze me.

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Crown Casino really lost their license for tampering ?

"Here's a slap on the wrist so we can make a media statement and pretend we care about the players"

"Just keep paying us the tax and you can do whatever you want to the players, please be a little more careful next time so we are not forced to get involved, wink wink"

 

[slotter999]

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Crown Casino really lost their license for tampering ?

"Here's a slap on the wrist so we can make a media statement and pretend we care about the players"

"Just keep paying us the tax and you can do whatever you want to the players, please be a little more careful next time so we are not forced to get involved, wink wink"

They removed three out of five line bet options. It's unclear from the article if that was through configuration of the slot or physical removal of the buttons used to execute those bet options but sounds like the latter. Regardless - this has no bearing on the overall payout structure of the slot machine.

The article associated article then goes on to explain that the employees were resetting the ram of the slot machines. It seems clear to me that whoever 'whistleblew' that story has no idea how a slot works because you could reset the ram between every spin it generally makes no difference. The only benefit a casino could gain from such an action is the elimination of advantage play situations arising from certain token based game mechanics on certain games. The advantage play scenario is unique to a land based casino due to the shared nature of physical slots. Those advantage play scenarios are also very slight. Go try for yourself - it's a grind.

Neither of those stories or claims support the idea of 'bent' software. They just highlight some shady behaviour on behalf of the casino.

 

[LoopsterAU]

My whole point of it is if they can get away with manipulating things without approval what is to stop software companies from doing it which have much easier and covert methods of hiding it ?

300k to them is like me dropping 5c out of my pocket... wouldn't spend the time to bend down and pick it up.

 

[Halvor]

My whole point of it is if they can get away with manipulating things without approval what is to stop software companies from doing it which have much easier and covert methods of hiding it ?

300k to them is like me dropping 5c out of my pocket... wouldn't spend the time to bend down and pick it up.

Because why do providers need to "fix" a game that anyways will give them a long term profit? Exactly what benefit will they have by somehow risking their entire business for absolutely no reason at all?

I'll repeat my question from earlier. If your so dead certain the industry is cheating you, why do you gamble?

As for your point, it's already been pointed out that the crown case has nothing to do with the maths of the game but the actual buttons for betting.

Unless you feel Netent is somehow cheating you for not allowing unlimited bet sizes on Dead or Alive 2, it's really not the same.

 

[LoopsterAU]

You think back room meetings don't occur in this world ? It's called greed, the same reason us gamblers keep playing.

The only difference between us gamblers and the 1% is the 1% actually has control of the situation... Us gamblers can just pray and rely on hope.

 

[Halvor]

You think back room meetings don't occur in this world ? It's called greed, the same reason us gamblers keep playing.

The only difference between us gamblers and the 1% is the 1% actually has control of the situation... Us gamblers can just pray and rely on hope.

I'm a gambler and I work in the industry. I assume I just like to throw away my money and knowingly and willingly play bent games?

 

[trancemonkey]

I'm a gambler and I work in the industry. I assume I just like to throw away my money and knowingly and willingly play bent games?

You and me both

 

[slotter999]

Because why do providers need to "fix" a game that anyways will give them a long term profit? Exactly what benefit will they have by somehow risking their entire business for absolutely no reason at all?

I'll repeat my question from earlier. If your so dead certain the industry is cheating you, why do you gamble?

As for your point, it's already been pointed out that the crown case has nothing to do with the maths of the game but the actual buttons for betting.

Unless you feel Netent is somehow cheating you for not allowing unlimited bet sizes on Dead or Alive 2, it's really not the same.

The fact that the tampering was so basic and rudimentary just highlights that even for super mega casinos such as Crown - tampering of the slot machine software is far beyond their reach.

 

[Slottery]

I'm pretty sure that even with some feelings posted here about game totally changed and feels predicable would be enough for Daily Mail or such to make article from experienced slot players opinion and point of view.

Gameplay histories would be available on request from casino and spotting there significant differences would probably be enough for them to make story to get loads of readers and speaking over internet as so many are playing slots these days and they have done stories with very questionable backround researches and information so why not about this one if somebody take little bit time to point out some of these accusations on this thread. Quite sure would be enough talk to get some official responses from providers when they are questionned about it.

Would maybe clear up some things what here are endless yes/no conversations about some game feel different, new games pay first better, streamers getting bigger wins etc... People love to read conspiracy theories.

 

[trancemonkey]

well, im not saying its necessarily easy, but it could be changed under the hood and not change rtp; you could change the volatitiliy and have the same rtp i suppose
@trancemonkey could speak toward how easily that would be to align

Of course you can change the maths completely and still have the same RTP... we can tweak and tune games down to 100ths of a percent if we want!

 

[trancemonkey]

I'm pretty sure that even with some feelings posted here about game totally changed and feels predicable would be enough for Daily Mail or such to make article from experienced slot players opinion and point of view.

Gameplay histories would be available on request from casino and spotting there significant differences would probably be enough for them to make story to get loads of readers and speaking over internet as so many are playing slots these days and they have done stories with very questionable backround researches and information so why not about this one if somebody take little bit time to point out some of these accusations on this thread. Quite sure would be enough talk to get some official responses from providers when they are questionned about it.

Would maybe clear up some things what here are endless yes/no conversations about some game feel different, new games pay first better, streamers getting bigger wins etc... People love to read conspiracy theories.

Cool - go for it. And when the Daily Mail make a lot of libellous claims about companies rigging games, working together illegally, and generally breaking a lot of laws, it will end up in court and then you'll finally get the proof you need one way or the other

PS - You'll lose

 

[Slottery]

Wasn't suggesting it to myself as haven't questioned that games are secrectly changed or you play one session in other and other one in other version of game etc... But recommended this for these who have strong believing to this cheating like i suggested to take advantage from games which are predictable as if that really works like that would be worth of nice money to try out

As you said, then there would be maybe at least some proof and official statements which are not finding themself to this forum

 

[mack341]

Because why do providers need to "fix" a game that anyways will give them a long term profit?

I wouldn't say fix but they have a vested interest in their games not falling out of the stated rtp range, what's to say if the rtp is looking a bit tight on the monitoring results that reel sets which are more generous don't then come into play for a while to make sure a game doesn't fall out of the required range and have to be pulled and re-tested?

Hence the strange streaks of games giving out more wins than usual, luckily for myself I've experienced this recently on raging rhino, it wasn't so obvious that I could advantage play the game however, just that the average bonus payout has been much higher with far fewer bonus guarantees.

I'll repeat my question from earlier. If your so dead certain the industry is cheating you, why do you gamble?

I'm not sure all persons are 'dead certain', I'm not but I do have a healthy scepticism and will keep it as an open question/possibility. To simply say case closed and never have a thought in that direction or never read or contribute to a thread discussing it, is not being realistic with human nature.

People who bet on horse races sometimes feel something underhand has occured but will still back horses.

Some casino sites you can't seem to buy a win and others, where you play the same games, your net loss/profit is in consistently much better shape, I can't rule out 100% that some odd, unknown factor in addition to the RNG isn't occuring.

I'm a gambler and I work in the industry.

I never would've guessed this from your replies .... If foil hatting disappears from CM 75 % of Trance's posts would too, I realise it must be frustrating from your and his angle to have to repeat the points and have the same arguments ad infinitum but as folk are gambling with their money the issue of fairness will always be somewhere around in the background, it's not limited to gambling either when someone pays to go lake fishing and they don't catch a thing they start to wonder how many fish are actually in the lake...

 

[Slottery]

People who bet on horse races sometimes feel something underhand has occured but will still back horses.

There's no RNG and proven that some race fixing have happened

 

[Kroffe]

No random number generator is deciding the outcome, but horse races are full of random events.
Thats what makes it so fun, but also frustrating to bet on.

Source:

 

[mack341]

There's no RNG and proven that some race fixing have happened

I know but it was more an example as to why people would gamble on slots even if they were not 100% certain the games/systems/programming are 100% fair, it's regional too most would trust a slot playing at a ukgc casino much more than one at a curacao casino, or a horse race in england as opposed to one in albania or mexico.

 

[Halvor]

I wouldn't say fix but they have a vested interest in their games not falling out of the stated rtp range, what's to say if the rtp is looking a bit tight on the monitoring results that reel sets which are more generous don't then come into play for a while to make sure a game doesn't fall out of the required range and have to be pulled and re-tested?

Hence the strange streaks of games giving out more wins than usual, luckily for myself I've experienced this recently on raging rhino, it wasn't so obvious that I could advantage play the game however, just that the average bonus payout has been much higher with far fewer bonus guarantees.

A change of reel sets would be a new version of the game, hence testing etc needed again. Despite popular beliefs no operator or provider possess the magical *Bloatgoat won't win today* button

A version of a game comes with pre defined set of reels, and those will be used for that game.

Games like jammin jars who runs on scenarios are of course different, but they still can't add, change or remove them as they feel fit.

A lower volatility version of a game for example will run a different reel set but legally speaking no operator can just switch these around constantly.

As for advantage play, no slot functioning as intended would offer such a thing. For example the oh so popular theory from a few weeks back of buying a certain feature a certain amount of times, will never guarantee a big win.

I don't mind people questioning the functionality of games. But I'm fairly certain most people agree that the thought of a industry wide conspiracy on all levels to gain an identical "advantage" to what's allready there makes absolutely no sense.

Furthermore if that had been the case, some whistleblowers would have emerged by now.

That said anyone who decides to gamble on unlicensed sites with pirated software have themselves to blame. And those sites do not reflect the standard and morale of the industry as a whole.

 

[mack341]

A change of reel sets would be a new version of the game, hence testing etc needed again. Despite popular beliefs no operator or provider possess the magical *Bloatgoat won't win today* button

A version of a game comes with pre defined set of reels, and those will be used for that game.

Games like jammin jars who runs on scenarios are of course different, but they still can't add, change or remove them as they feel fit.

A lower volatility version of a game for example will run a different reel set but legally speaking no operator can just switch these around constantly.

As for advantage play, no slot functioning as intended would offer such a thing. For example the oh so popular theory from a few weeks back of buying a certain feature a certain amount of times, will never guarantee a big win.

I don't mind people questioning the functionality of games. But I'm fairly certain most people agree that the thought of a industry wide conspiracy on all levels to gain an identical "advantage" to what's allready there makes absolutely no sense.

Furthermore if that had been the case, some whistleblowers would have emerged by now.

That said anyone who decides to gamble on unlicensed sites with pirated software have themselves to blame. And those sites do not reflect the standard and morale of the industry as a whole.

I agree with a lot of your post, that might surprise you, I often put a foil hat on and then take it off
If we accept streaks of better results do occur [over several days say] could this just be the nature of RNG's to go on such streaks, it is unexpected so could fit well within the notion of random.

The moment wins are predictable would be a big problem for a random game, losses and dead spins feel more predictable but given the odds/statistics in the paytable they will occur far more often.

The games are kind of designed to implant the belief or hope that you will win on the next spin, so when you consistently don't, say 18 out of 20 spins are blank non winning, the feeling of being cheated in some way, I suppose, is naturally going to appear after a while as you're receiving mixed signals. Just putting that out there as a possibility regarding the psychology, not saying that is what is happening.

 

[trancemonkey]

A change of reel sets would be a new version of the game, hence testing etc needed again. Despite popular beliefs no operator or provider possess the magical *Bloatgoat won't win today* button

They do on all my games. From today. But only for goats. Which sadly also means @goatwack is also included. Sorry goats!

 

[trancemonkey]

I agree with a lot of your post, that might surprise you, I often put a foil hat on and then take it off
If we accept streaks of better results do occur [over several days say] could this just be the nature of RNG's to go on such streaks, it is unexpected so could fit well within the notion of random.

The moment wins are predictable would be a big problem for a random game, losses and dead spins feel more predictable but given the odds/statistics in the paytable they will occur far more often.

The games are kind of designed to implant the belief or hope that you will win on the next spin, so when you consistently don't, say 18 out of 20 spins are blank non winning, the feeling of being cheated in some way, I suppose, is naturally going to appear after a while as you're receiving mixed signals. Just putting that out there as a possibility regarding the psychology, not saying that is what is happening.

But if we WERE rigging things, why the hell would we let games play so badly for long periods. This is the exact opposite of the reason compensation/rigging would be worthwhile

 

[Halvor]

They do on all my games. From today. But only for goats. Which sadly also means @goatwack is also included. Sorry goats!

Great initiative, I'll start to lobby it straight away.

With any luck we can get it implemented globally by the end of year. That'll teach them for uncovering all our dirty secrets in this thread

 

[mack341]

But if we WERE rigging things, why the hell would we let games play so badly for long periods. This is the exact opposite of the reason compensation/rigging would be worthwhile

Well you know the maths better than me, but I was just thinking it's not deliberate compensation to rip players off but that given results are random [even though ring fenced within the statistical outcomes] maybe the statistics don't always arrive on time as expected and to save the costs and lost money from having a game pulled, a little extra rtp could be somehow [maybe a reel set with more 100x to 500x wins and less 2000x wins could appear more often] added short term.

[I know you'll say no , but I'm just thinking allowed, I'm not saying people should agree with me and I'm correct, it's more a nagging suspicion that I can't quite shake]

I wonder since live rtp monitoring was introduced whether any games have been pulled and re-tested, I know games have a +/- margin but what if the margin has been miscalculated, is the margin allowed the same for every game, say 2%, or does it vary according to each game and is set by the game maker/test house?

 

[trancemonkey]

Well you know the maths better than me, but I was just thinking it's not deliberate compensation to rip players off but that given results are random [even though ring fenced within the statistical outcomes] maybe the statistics don't always arrive on time as expected and to save the costs and lost money from having a game pulled, a little extra rtp could be somehow [maybe a reel set with more 100x to 500x wins and less 2000x wins could appear more often] added short term.

[I know you'll say no , but I'm just thinking allowed, I'm not saying people should agree with me and I'm correct, it's more a nagging suspicion that I can't quite shake]

I wonder since live rtp monitoring was introduced whether any games have been pulled and re-tested, I know games have a +/- margin but what if the margin has been miscalculated, is the margin allowed the same for every game, say 2%, or does it vary according to each game and is set by the game maker/test house?

You cant change a game on the fly, as that would alter the checksum of the game package... and you cannot alter the way a game plays based on anything... rtp, day of the week, weather, goat-related stuff... nothing.

Also, yes absolutely games have been removed due to RTP issues. Not because they were purposely low or high, but because of faults that testing didn't pick up on which happened in a real world environment.

And yes, no testing is perfect!

 

[Kroffe]

Great initiative, I'll start to lobby it straight away.

With any luck we can get it implemented globally by the end of year. That'll teach them for uncovering all our dirty secrets in this thread

How accurate is the Goatban-program?
Could, lets say a Bear, give a false-positive, or am i safe?

 

[trancemonkey]

How accurate is the Goatban-program?
Could, lets say a Bear, give a false-positive, or am i safe?

No, my wife is also a bear.. so there is special bear protection built in.

Llamas are a problem as they look a bit like goats, but bears are fine.

 

[Halvor]

No, my wife is also a bear.. so there is special bear protection built in.

Llamas are a problem as they look a bit like goats, but bears are fine.

I disagree, a full tin foil wrapped bear can easily be mistaken for a goat

 

[Kroffe]

I disagree, a full tin foil wrapped bear can easily be mistaken for a goat

Oh bother..
Wish i had known before i started.

 

[Halvor]

Oh bother..
Wish i had known before i started.

View attachment 117595

You missed the hat man, you can't properly tinfoil without one.

 

[slotter999]

As for advantage play, no slot functioning as intended would offer such a thing. For example the oh so popular theory from a few weeks back of buying a certain feature a certain amount of times, will never guarantee a big win.

Advantage plays do exist on land based slots for certain game mechanics. Any slot with a token / accumulation system will have one and operate exactly as intended.

There have also been advantage play on online slots albeit unintentional. Ocean Magic by IGT is the most recent one I'm aware of.

 

[sufferinsilence]

We always hear about testing, re-testing when the provider changes something, live RTP monitoring,... but can we as the player see this somewhere for ourselves? Are there documents available for the general public where we can see for ourselves what the outcomes are for said tests? Can we check in on the live RTP monitoring?

Let's take Bonanza, if the game would be underperforming at say 92% for a prolonged time (I have no idea how long that would be for) and questions would be raised towards the provider. Are they suddenly going to add different results to the RNG? How are they going to raise the RTP for a stretch of time so it's going back to the 96%?

I guess the fact we can't check "behind the scenes" adds to our tinfoilhattery when we are losing. It doesn't really always have to do with the fact we think they rig the games. Atleast for me it doesn't and I guess being able to have a look under the hood myself might help, even if I admittedly wouldn't understand most of it

 

[dionysus]

We always hear about testing, re-testing when the provider changes something, live RTP monitoring,... but can we as the player see this somewhere for ourselves? Are there documents available for the general public where we can see for ourselves what the outcomes are for said tests? Can we check in on the live RTP monitoring?

Let's take Bonanza, if the game would be underperforming at say 92% for a prolonged time (I have no idea how long that would be for) and questions would be raised towards the provider. Are they suddenly going to add different results to the RNG? How are they going to raise the RTP for a stretch of time so it's going back to the 96%?

I guess the fact we can't check "behind the scenes" adds to our tinfoilhattery when we are losing. It doesn't really always have to do with the fact we think they rig the games. Atleast for me it doesn't and I guess being able to have a look under the hood myself might help, even if I admittedly wouldn't understand most of it

I guess maybe it's because as others have said...the avergae punter just doesnt give a toss; I mean, people still go in droves to land based with its much lower RTP games
WE might care but we're a very small portion of overall players

 

[sufferinsilence]

I guess maybe it's because as others have said...the avergae punter just doesnt give a toss; I mean, people still go in droves to land based with its much lower RTP games
WE might care but we're a very small portion of overall players

I don't think that's a very good reason. There's alot of documents that are/have to be made public where only a minority of people have an interest in.

 

[snorky510238]

If the industry is so squeaky clean, innocent and regulated to the degree we are led to believe then why are all the changes to games, lowered RTPs etc not displayed in bold letters upon login to inform all unsuspecting players what has happened?

 

[slotter999]

We always hear about testing, re-testing when the provider changes something, live RTP monitoring,... but can we as the player see this somewhere for ourselves? Are there documents available for the general public where we can see for ourselves what the outcomes are for said tests? Can we check in on the live RTP monitoring?

Let's take Bonanza, if the game would be underperforming at say 92% for a prolonged time (I have no idea how long that would be for) and questions would be raised towards the provider. Are they suddenly going to add different results to the RNG? How are they going to raise the RTP for a stretch of time so it's going back to the 96%?

I guess the fact we can't check "behind the scenes" adds to our tinfoilhattery when we are losing. It doesn't really always have to do with the fact we think they rig the games. Atleast for me it doesn't and I guess being able to have a look under the hood myself might help, even if I admittedly wouldn't understand most of it

I believe the lack of openness and transparency is a large contributing factor in the lack of distrust in online slots. The casinos, providers and regulators could do so much more, yet, without these things they are still taking hundreds of billions in revenue so where is their incentive?

This and the fact that pseudo randomness is a concept some people are simply unable to comprehend / understand. I can almost guarantee that those who think slots are rigged do not truly understand how a slot actually works. It's not a slur on those people - just highlighting where I think the misunderstanding comes from.

 

[dionysus]

If the industry is so squeaky clean, innocent and regulated to the degree we are led to believe then why are all the changes to games, lowered RTPs etc not displayed in bold letters upon login to inform all unsuspecting players what has happened?

I don't think anyone is saying they're all so squeaky clean. I think most people are saying, by and large, casinos aren't these mad, crazy outfits out to rig their games and screw us over.
Theyr're still a business.
Your candy bar doesn't say now 8% smaller nor your beer nor soda can.
I think nearly everyone agrees however, a clear display in the help file listing rtp is key.

 

[dionysus]

There's nothing wrong with a healthy dose of skepticism, There are after all, bad apples. But there's also ridiculous fear-mongeriing and tinfoil hattery.

Let's look at restaurants.
When there's a new one, I'll go read reviews and customer experiences.

But just because there's that one story about some nasty shenenigans that have occurred in a restaurant, every time I go to a major fast food chain, I don't lift the burger top to check if someone spit in it (or as some tinfoil hatters would have you belieive, EVERY restaurant does, and therefore will bring swabs, question why the pickle is less green than the last one or why one of the onion cubes is 3% smaller than the others)