Providers moving the goal posts

[snorky510238]

@snorky510238

Personally i feel the hot and cold sessions are due to the higher volatility games that are more in favour nowadays. I have turned small deposits into thousands , and also lost many deposits in seconds

People need that excitement from big hits . The trend in game design is going towards the bigger hits. So there must be a counter reaction in what feels like colder sessions.

I could live with that if I had the odd great hit but my account won’t go past £300 these days.

 

[Guntis]

I have only been playing online a fairly short time but in that period I have seen a massive change. I am not imagining it I a have a very good memory. A few years ago it really felt like you were playing slots with 96% rtps. You had a decent chance of winning imo.

Nowadays it doesn’t feel like that at all. It feels no different than playing an AWP with an 85% payout. The main thing I can’t help noticing is that your sessions are hot or cold, never a mix. You either seem to win or lose instantly. It just feels very sinister.

Here everything is simple - a deposit of £50 a few years ago was pretty much as £500 is in nowadays.

Today with a deposit of £50 and playing slots at £1 per spin nobody will get far and especially on those which spin fast like Pay'n GO, Red Tiger, Blueprint .etc

£50 = roughly 15 (maybe) 20min of play at £1.

At this size of the bet, to make a game session last for an evening, the luck must be on your side and the deposit needs to be at least £300- 500.

New players don't know that but the game providers do and very well! I think it will become even worse.

 

[snorky510238]

Here everything is simple - a deposit of £50 a few years ago was pretty much as £500 is in nowadays.

Today with a deposit of £50 and playing slots at £1 per spin nobody will get far and especially on those which spin fast like Pay'n GO, Red Tiger, Blueprint .etc

£50 = roughly 15 (maybe) 20min of play at £1.

At this size of the bet, to make a game session last for an evening, the luck must be on your side and the deposit needs to be at least £300- 500.

New players don't know that but the game providers do and very well! I think it will become even worse.

Looking at chances of winning/game time it’s become a hobby that is too expensive. The cold spells are so frequent and the hot spells hard to come by.

 

[Mr_Slot5]

Looking at chances of winning/game time it’s become a hobby that is too expensive. The cold spells are so frequent and the hot spells hard to come by.

If there's no enjoyment anymore then there's no point in playing. That's why I am in the middle of a 6 month break. Session after session was as you describe. When the big hits did come along they weren't enough to even get me near pulling level.

It's almost like spending 200x to get 150x back, constantly. Yeah it's a big hit but it's not when you consider what it took to get it.

 

[Lobo]

Sidenote (with a tin foil hat on): You'll be surprised to see how man cookies are placed on your computer while playing a slot.
Long time since I checked, but last time it was way over 20 on Casumo. 28 I think.
A few of those cookies are needed for everything to work, maybe 1 or 2.

A cookie is a way website tracks you. And is very important for web developers etc. A cookie can log crazy amount of information.

3rd parties, such as game providers, are free to place cookies on your computer when playing one of their slots.

 

[snorky510238]

Yes there are certain things I can’t ignore.

If you have a good session on a slot today, no matter where you play it tomorrow your almost certainly going to find it’s dead.

The constant win a bit then lose a bit more scenario.

The amazing resemblance to FOBTS. On certain days (most tbh) you couldn’t win however much money you spent. They were in take mode and that was that. On the days they paid out they would throw it at you like confetti. Everyone would win on those days.

No matter how much people insist it’s all random unless your from another planet it’s plain to see it isn’t. It’s an insult to your intelligence.

For me the fun has stopped. I will still have the odd session I am sure but they will be few and far between as I have become tired of the predictability of a session after a handful of spins.

 

[dpp00]

ya recently had the update of about the only game i ever played for about 6/7 yrs not once but twice, its totally destroyed

and now falls under what ive come to believe at the 4 casinos i play purely for fun mode games,

now im on runecraft and gemix mainly as im still getting some decent playtime

 

[Luckyscouser45]

Lately all my wins have been early hours on paddy power now early hours slots I frequent don’t load until the following morning :-/

 

[Siohmy]

I’m certainly not about to get into the rigged debate for the gazillionth time but outside of reducing the RTP which is a seriously crap but unfortunately increasing event, I was under the impression that any change in math design had to go through the UK gaming commission.

That said, genuinely what is to say that isn’t happening? I’d guess there would be no requirement to even imply the game mechanics had changed. Is it permissible to dramatically change the way a certain slot behaves whilst changing nothing else? Is this ok if RTP is still correct.

I honestly haven’t experienced anything too dramatic myself but with so many claiming Raging Rhino has changed since going to HTML it’d be interesting to know the standing with this.

Maybe this should have gone in the “Ask me...” thread.

 

[slot_zombie]

I’m certainly not about to get into the rigged debate for the gazillionth time but outside of reducing the RTP which is a seriously crap but unfortunately increasing event, I was under the impression that any change in math design had to go through the UK gaming commission.

That said, genuinely what is to say that isn’t happening? I’d guess there would be no requirement to even imply the game mechanics had changed. Is it permissible to dramatically change the way a certain slot behaves whilst changing nothing else? Is this ok if RTP is still correct.

I honestly haven’t experienced anything too dramatic myself but with so many claiming Raging Rhino has changed since going to HTML it’d be interesting to know the standing with this.

Maybe this should have gone in the “Ask me...” thread.

AFAIK the game providers can do what they want as long as any maths changes are recertified, and the RTP in the help file amended - if it's been reduced. Harsh times. And I agree Rhino has massively changed for the worse.

 

[georgietemple]

This is really interesting to me; I'm glad someone brought it up. In reviewing recent slots, I've noticed there are so many high volatility games nowadays. So, when I'm playing, I'll be spinning and spinning and spinning before I can land a win. It does take some of the excitement away, even though the volatilty means bigger wins when they do come around.

RTPs seem a bit stagnant as well. Very few new games over 96.5%. Both new Megaways games, Wish Upon and Leprechaun and Deal or No Deal both have RTPs under 96%.

I think maybe because slots are coming loaded with so many bonuses (which I do enjoy, don't get me wrong), devs are giving their games lower RTPs?

 

[chris87]

Yes there are certain things I can’t ignore.

If you have a good session on a slot today, no matter where you play it tomorrow your almost certainly going to find it’s dead.

The constant win a bit then lose a bit more scenario.

The amazing resemblance to FOBTS. On certain days (most tbh) you couldn’t win however much money you spent. They were in take mode and that was that. On the days they paid out they would throw it at you like confetti. Everyone would win on those days.

No matter how much people insist it’s all random unless your from another planet it’s plain to see it isn’t. It’s an insult to your intelligence.

For me the fun has stopped. I will still have the odd session I am sure but they will be few and far between as I have become tired of the predictability of a session after a handful of spins.

I agree. In over 10 years of on line slotting this is the pattern you see. 2 specific instances for me come to mind, one was a 4 reel wild desire win on IR and the other a hot mode win on Terminator 2. Both paid over £4k. After these wins I could not hit anything for ages, not only on these games at the casinos that I'd had the wins, but on any game, anywhere!

I've also noticed that when you start to play on a new game at a new casino, your returns seem much better at first. Similarly when you've been away for a while.

I think that it is the providers and not the casinos, but it's notable that the industry does not like you to use other IP addresses.

Chris

 

[SpinUk]

Can tell you know from my side - fishparty has 100% had its maths changed to make it less volatile since its html replacement.

 

[Siohmy]

This is really interesting to me; I'm glad someone brought it up. In reviewing recent slots, I've noticed there are so many high volatility games nowadays. So, when I'm playing, I'll be spinning and spinning and spinning before I can land a win. It does take some of the excitement away, even though the volatilty means bigger wins when they do come around.

RTPs seem a bit stagnant as well. Very few new games over 96.5%. Both new Megaways games, Wish Upon and Leprechaun and Deal or No Deal both have RTPs under 96%.

I think maybe because slots are coming loaded with so many bonuses (which I do enjoy, don't get me wrong), devs are giving their games lower RTPs?

RTP reduction, coupled with increasing number of HV/UHV games is simply a way to make the casinos/manufacturers more money as quickly as possible. More stringent regulations in the UK are partly responsible for this as has been mentioned elsewhere. However, many players have now been conditioned to accept bonus frequencies in the hundreds of spins as opposed to 150-200 in the past, as well as expecting huge payouts. It is very much the reason that there is a stupid release schedule these days. Make as much as you can as quickly as you can before everyone susses out your release is a bit crap.

Every so often a real gem will come out but mostly proven stuff gets regurgitated ad nausea (erm, books anyone?).

It becomes increasingly difficult to find slots which will not go through large bankrolls inside an hour. Too many culprits to list.

 

[TheAddict]

Can tell you know from my side - fishparty has 100% had its maths changed to make it less volatile since its html replacement.

Something along these lines is how I feel about doa1 since the html replacement. I've banged away at this game for many years, it takes 98% of my gameplay if i play online. Pre html5 It felt like I would get a 0 paying bonus round almost every session, it was hard not to get one for me - where the only pay from 3 scatters is the trigger. It really wasn't uncommon for me before the change over, and I play it alot.

Since the html5 update it feels like I'm getting 1 in 80 features that give 0 pays, instead of what felt like 1 in 20 on the original. It's felt this way since the change over.
I've been roughly counting for the past few weeks, chasing the 0 paying free spins round lol, and my last free spins round that resulted in 0 wins was over 200 rounds .. and still counting.
Sounds strange for a gambler to do... but at times, lately, I literally am asking for it to just pay nothing at all.

 

[snorky510238]

I agree. In over 10 years of on line slotting this is the pattern you see. 2 specific instances for me come to mind, one was a 4 reel wild desire win on IR and the other a hot mode win on Terminator 2. Both paid over £4k. After these wins I could not hit anything for ages, not only on these games at the casinos that I'd had the wins, but on any game, anywhere!

I've also noticed that when you start to play on a new game at a new casino, your returns seem much better at first. Similarly when you've been away for a while.

I think that it is the providers and not the casinos, but it's notable that the industry does not like you to use other IP addresses.

Chris

Yes I agree that it’s the providers. The casinos wouldn’t have a clue what was being done to the games. Game of thrones is another that since it’s makeover plays completely different.

I have always questioned rtp. In my view it’s a fancy way of leading players into thinking they have a better chance of winning than playing a compensated game.

Essentially there is no difference. A so called random game with a rtp of 96% keeps £4 in every £100. A compensated game that has a payout of 96% does the same.

 

[snorky510238]

At the time of the original post in this thread I had noticed a change in the game Boaw but it was only over a short period. 4 months later I can confirm that this game has been altered along with many others.

I can only comment on games I play a lot spins through obviously. The latest game that has undoubtedly been changed to the point where it is unrecognisable from its former self is Bonanza. For the past couple of months this game has played atrociously and regular posters on the Bonanza thread have all experienced the same thing.

I am at the point where I know something doesn’t add up. I don’t feel that I have lost money lately, more like I have been mugged. My gameplay compared to 6 months is shockingly different.

Just to make a comparison I decided to check out my stats before and after I became convinced something sinister was occurring.

My deposit size hasn’t changed usually around £15 but you can see the total amount of deposits has increased dramatically over the past 5 months and I am getting a lot LESS game time not more.

Stats at Videoslots.

1-6-2016 to 1-6-2019 = 3 years.

Total deposits = £6,600.00
Withdrawals = £4,775.00

Total loss = £1,825.00

2-6-2019 to 2-11-2019 = 5 months

Total deposits = £3,640.00
Withdrawals = £2,100.00

Total loss = £1,540.00

Stats at Casumo

1-6-2016 to 1-6-2019 = 3 years

Total deposits = £3,648.00
Withdrawals = £2,385.67

Total loss = £1262.33

2-6-2019 to 2-11-2019

Total deposits = £2525.00
Withdrawals = £1339.00

Total loss = £1186.00

As you can clearly see there is a pattern here showing how providers as I stated have moved the goalposts. Games are being devised to speed up the money losing process and as far as I am concerned older games that were popular but not designed in this way have been taken down tampered with and reinstated with a completely different variance.

Obviously providers and Casinos want to make money as quickly as possible so it makes sense for them to go down this route. If you look at my last 5 months at Videoslots my stats are very similar to the first 3 years at Casumo. All that has happened is I have lost the money about 7 times faster.


Given the fact you will lose long term the main aim for providers and Casinos is to speed up the process so this happens as quickly as possible.

Unfortunately they are ruining the industry at top speed and completely taking away any of the enjoyment that previously existed. The one thing they will rely on is that there are far more people out there that never question anything than those that do. For every person that signs up to Gamstop another two will sign up to a new Casino.

That is true for now maybe but there will come a point where that will change the market is not inexhaustible.

Most people never question anything at all, most people will just discard this post as a sore loser having a moan etc. Its not about that I am merely pointing out what most people won’t see or even think about.

 

[Bloatgoat]

Nobody would ever listen to me when i said that all the big data gathered among players would be somehow used against us eventually. Ah well. The best time of gambling has bin. The only focus is to keep players playing more and ultimately lose more, all for benefits for casino's and providers.

Really, seek landbased. They dont throw dirty tricks or tactics on their players. All i know is they buy machines, install them and that's it.

 

[johnnymcc1966]

Nobody would ever listen to me when i said that all the big data gathered among players would be somehow used against us eventually. Ah well. The best time of gambling has bin. The only focus is to keep players playing more and ultimately lose more, all for benefits for casino's and providers.

Really, seek landbased. They dont throw dirty tricks or tactics on their players. All i know is they buy machines, install them and that's it.

Aren't land based owned by men with funny shaped noses and who make you offers you cannot refuse? I'd tend to trust them less by default.

 

[Bloatgoat]

Aren't land based owned by men with funny shaped noses and who make you offers you cannot refuse? I'd tend to trust them less by default.

The truth is, i walk away with profit 7 out of 10 times in landbased then with online. Yesterday i played and depositted for over 2500 euro. I lost this in like barely 3 hours of playtime. Tried all sorts of tactics, nada, absolutely nothing. I was just being wagered all over the place untill you reach that ceiling and boom straight line down. It only changes when you do a new deposit, frankly.

You cant tell me that hitting 15x on 100 euro on BTG for example not being able to pass the 12 or even 16 spin feature is not rigged. Seriously, fuck the online gambling and all their bullshit.

I agree. In over 10 years of on line slotting this is the pattern you see. 2 specific instances for me come to mind, one was a 4 reel wild desire win on IR and the other a hot mode win on Terminator 2. Both paid over £4k. After these wins I could not hit anything for ages, not only on these games at the casinos that I'd had the wins, but on any game, anywhere!

I've also noticed that when you start to play on a new game at a new casino, your returns seem much better at first. Similarly when you've been away for a while.

I think that it is the providers and not the casinos, but it's notable that the industry does not like you to use other IP addresses.

Chris

I'm glad you posted the above out, but, it's not your IP adress that they track, it's simply your user account, and from casino you come from. My casino here recently changed it's whole website and is opening games in a new window, with partial the URL masked in Base64, which shows the following.

- The Casino ID
- The players ID
- The players username
- And a session included

They have all the tools to track every bet made, every win and loss at the casino you've done. How many times did you had the close to near breaking point to haul you over to deposit more? And how many times the action started to come back after your deposit and once it's hits a ceiling quickly jumps down again?

I see an overall pattern where your deposit is the actual wagering instead of playing a game and / or the betsize. When i accept bonusses, i instant know that i will have a bit of action going on, but always within wagering requirement. The more you played, lost or depositted in the last period, the bigger your bonus at the end is.

So you have to play through all that mess, select the right game, the right bet, play cool and easy, keep an eye on how much you still have to wager (usually 39x or higher) before you can cash out. And yeah, cash out, while your at it. Because the fun is already over. Casino's and / or providers are in the same business and casino's CHOOSE a pre-set RTP or game variance. Casino's can limit the maximum payout a game can offer so it will be less colleteral damage once a player hits a 100k or so.

I think if a operator brings in enough wagering to a game provider, the chances are big that you as a player coming from the same operator have a greater chance of winning, then a casino that barely brings anything to the table if you know what i mean. It's all randomly being distributed within parameters, believe me. On one casino my favorite game(s) are completely dead, on another casino where i know the name and brand is worth alot more the games do seem to pay alot better.

It's a big phat scheme.

 

[Guntis]

The truth is, i walk away with profit 7 out of 10 times in landbased then with online. Yesterday i played and depositted for over 2500 euro. I lost this in like barely 3 hours of playtime. Tried all sorts of tactics, nada, absolutely nothing. I was just being wagered all over the place untill you reach that ceiling and boom straight line down. It only changes when you do a new deposit, frankly.

You cant tell me that hitting 15x on 100 euro on BTG for example not being able to pass the 12 or even 16 spin feature is not rigged. Seriously, fuck the online gambling and all their bullshit.



I'm glad you posted the above out, but, it's not your IP adress that they track, it's simply your user account, and from casino you come from. My casino here recently changed it's whole website and is opening games in a new window, with partial the URL masked in Base64, which shows the following.

- The Casino ID
- The players ID
- The players username
- And a session included

They have all the tools to track every bet made, every win and loss at the casino you've done. How many times did you had the close to near breaking point to haul you over to deposit more? And how many times the action started to come back after your deposit and once it's hits a ceiling quickly jumps down again?

I see an overall pattern where your deposit is the actual wagering instead of playing a game and / or the betsize. When i accept bonusses, i instant know that i will have a bit of action going on, but always within wagering requirement. The more you played, lost or depositted in the last period, the bigger your bonus at the end is.

So you have to play through all that mess, select the right game, the right bet, play cool and easy, keep an eye on how much you still have to wager (usually 39x or higher) before you can cash out. And yeah, cash out, while your at it. Because the fun is already over. Casino's and / or providers are in the same business and casino's CHOOSE a pre-set RTP or game variance. Casino's can limit the maximum payout a game can offer so it will be less colleteral damage once a player hits a 100k or so.

I think if a operator brings in enough wagering to a game provider, the chances are big that you as a player coming from the same operator have a greater chance of winning, then a casino that barely brings anything to the table if you know what i mean. It's all randomly being distributed within parameters, believe me. On one casino my favorite game(s) are completely dead, on another casino where i know the name and brand is worth alot more the games do seem to pay alot better.

It's a big phat scheme.

I have had this feeling a time ago that providers can easily track all the necessary gaming activity of anyone's account.

Just imagine if you were a game provider for online casinos, this knowledge for you would be absolutely essential because analysing and checking this info would give you an opportunity to take things under your control completely...

 

[Bloatgoat]

I do not believe a game these days is fully independent regards to it's RTP. It's a different model and it's paying out on the players AVG wagering. Simular is happening to landbased with blocks of machines, everybody's bets / wagering is randomly distributed among players where a small percentage is for the casino / game provider.

I know this happens because, at casino 1, i can go full / max bet towards 20 to 40 a spin and hit something good, and on casino 2 where the game is all down the list where nobody is going to see that, barely hits at that bet and has the sweetspot around 2 to 4 euro. I think the overal wagering of operator Y is being distributed accordingly. The biggest casino's bringing the most players get the best 'results' sort of say.

 

[Mr_Slot5]

Tin foil hat or not, I'm almost certain slots pay out on the average stake of the player. I have always been a religiously low stakes player- 10, 20, 40p stakes. EVERY time I raised stake because I was running good, the slot went deathly cold and even if a bonus hit, it would pay within the margins of what you'd reasonably expect the previous lower stake to pay. Like a ceiling that can't be broken through.

 

[snorky510238]

Tin foil hat or not, I'm almost certain slots pay out on the average stake of the player. I have always been a religiously low stakes player- 10, 20, 40p stakes. EVERY time I raised stake because I was running good, the slot went deathly cold and even if a bonus hit, it would pay within the margins of what you'd reasonably expect the previous lower stake to pay. Like a ceiling that can't be broken through.

Yes there is definitely something in that. On the occasions I have increased my stakes the bonus rounds just disappear and yeah if you do hit one it pays nothing special.

Just the same as your balance never going higher than a certain amount. I find it unbelievable that in 4 years of slotting (and I have played a hell of a lot in that time) I have never had a balance over £1,000. I have only got over £500 about 5 times.

It seems like my balance is only allowed between certain parameters. Try and push it over that and I am guaranteed to lose.

 

[Bloatgoat]

It matches with what i found out before, your deposits are basicly wagered among the rest. I had a employee of a casino (VIP manager) who wrote me that they where the first casino's that would implement a system that would take all player deposits minus 3% and you have a pool of 97% "RTP" that was distributed among all players.

So yeah, it matches with the RTP is taken out of the "indepent" game.