Providers moving the goal posts

[snorky510238]

If I am correct (and I haven’t researched it in depth I admit) I understand that providers use PRNGs which by definition produce seemingly random number sequences but are actually deterministic. As opposed to HRNGs which actually produce random sequences.

If it is supposed to be truly random, why not use the latter?

 

[Bloatgoat]

Why use hardware resources to constant produce a RNG while you could read it off a checkerboard type of thing. You see; providers are changing the thing without us knowing. Their marketgoal is maximum revenue.

 

[goatwack]

"Why leave things to chance", it has been said

 

[dionysus]

"Why leave things to chance", it has been said

and published

 

[LoopsterAU]

Okay I cannot call this evidence because it is not but I can explain the technical process of how the providers would be able to put you onto different versions of the game without being caught. I work in IT and understand networks at a fairly high level so if I was a dodgy person working at one of these gaming providers this would be what I could do.

First of all when you hit a URL it sends you to an IP address of what appears to be the game server which will have a unique publicly facing IP address however it is not so simple as that because you are not hitting the server directly but rather a device called a load balancer. This load balancer then can look at certain information about you, source IP address and source MAC address (unique to a device) being the primary things however I am pretty sure high end ones can look at a lot more info about the user than just those 2 basic things.

Now that load balancer sits between that public IP address (router) and the actual servers themselves. There can easily be 10 different servers on the inside end of the network with the load balancer being the bridge between you and each of those servers, these servers could very easily have different RTP versions of the game. The load balancer could also in theory switch you between these versions without you even exiting the game or realizing that it has done so.

In a fair system this load balancer would randomly throw you to a random RTP version of the game but we all know when it comes to gambling if things were always fair someone could get extra lucky so it has to be controlled so that over the long term they make their money and the gambler loses his/hers. I am sure the providers would keep background databases to be able to lookup to see if someone has lost too much or won too much and based on this the load balancer could send you to either the highest paying server of the game or the one that is made to milk you dry quicker than you can count to 100.

As I said at the start this is not evidence or proof but if I worked in their network design team and was told by management to make sure that the player could only win enough to never let them get ahead but keep them hooked (don't allow them to lose too much to the point of never coming back) this is what I would implement.

 

[dionysus]

might tear apart your theory here, but I understood it that the game servers are at the provider's's end not the casino's and while a casino may care about how much any individual player wins or loses, I don't see why the provider would give a toss about individual players in specificity
@trancemonkey - any 2 cents/insights to the above?

 

[LoopsterAU]

might tear apart your theory here, but I understood it that the game servers are at the provider's's end not the casino's and while a casino may care about how much any individual player wins or loses, I don't see why the provider would give a toss about individual players in specificity
@trancemonkey - any 2 cents/insights to the above?

Did you not see my earlier post a few pages ago about certain information being passed between the casino and provider ?

 

[LoopsterAU]

You know what, I hope that I am wrong and it really is random but I am sure that the people doing the "testing" probably wouldn't have this technical knowledge and if it helps with UKGC and other regions regulators be able to implement checks for things like this after info gets out then I hope they are able to check all of this and prove me wrong.

 

[snorky510238]

You know what, I hope that I am wrong and it really is random but I am sure that the people doing the "testing" probably wouldn't have this technical knowledge and if it helps with UKGC and other regions regulators be able to implement checks for things like this after info gets out then I hope they are able to check all of this and prove me wrong.

I am not a technical wizard but this makes perfect sense and ties in with what I am seeing. I just didn’t know how they did it.

I have always stated that you are not on a level playing field every day and how new games are more productive in the first few months and then go completely dead.

There is no denying the noticeable difference when you are on the bottom server compared to the top one, they are poles apart.

 

[slotter999]

If I am correct (and I haven’t researched it in depth I admit) I understand that providers use PRNGs which by definition produce seemingly random number sequences but are actually deterministic. As opposed to HRNGs which actually produce random sequences.

If it is supposed to be truly random, why not use the latter?

PRNGs are software defined and produce results which are so random that it is indistinguishable from a truly random source. Any software defined RNG is by definition deterministic and algorithm based. This is mitigated by using a random(ish) seed value to initiate the process.

HRNGs use a physical source to generate a random stream and simply rely on naturally occuring randomness to generate numbers. One unusual example is a company that uses a lava lamp wall to generate numbers and is considered a HRNG.

Outside of gambling RNGs are used extensively in the IT world to support security functions. For example each time you login to your online banking an RNG is at work in the background being used to generate your access token. These are almost always PRNGs.

The Achilles heel of the PRNG is the seed if poorly implemented. If you look at the case where those land based slots were being 'done' it was due to a poor implementation of the seed.

 

[Luckyscouser45]

A Can of worms
Are being opened love it

 

[dealer wins]

This is the best thread ever on CM, and I can well believe that in some if not many cases players are being cheated! Look at the poker scandals there have been. Money corrupts many people!

 

[trancemonkey]

Did you not see my earlier post a few pages ago about certain information being passed between the casino and provider ?

Except the information ISN'T used by the provider. Nor is it passed to the provider.
Providers integrate their games on to a platform, and then casinos integrate the platform.
The casinos will use all that information (for all sorts of reasons) but the game provider will not be passed any of that information - just because that information is passed in a query, does not in any way prove that that query is used in the spin request. In fact, i think you'll find that a spin request holds very little data most of the time.

 

[trancemonkey]

This is the best thread ever on CM, and I can well believe that in some if not many cases players are being cheated! Look at the poker scandals there have been. Money corrupts many people!

They aren't being cheated - don't get too excited. This is just a thread full of people that only believe what they want to believe, ignore common sense, logic and reason in order to come to the conclusion they want to come to, and then claim people like me are just "shills" or "liars".

So i challenge any one of you in this thread to come forward with a shred of evidence that games in any of the regulated markets CM recommends you play in are rigged, compensated, or in any way purposely unfair. When you have that evidence, post it - or better still, go to the press (especially the Daily Mail in the UK, who hate gambling) and they will be the first to publish it and bring down all the terrible companies working together, illegally, and for some odd reason NOT in competition with each other, to do something that legal, random games do anyway.

Until then, this thread is just supposition and (bad) guesswork.

 

[trancemonkey]

A Can of worms
Are being opened love it

I don't see a can, let alone any worms.

 

[trancemonkey]

I am not a technical wizard but this makes perfect sense and ties in with what I am seeing. I just didn’t know how they did it.

I have always stated that you are not on a level playing field every day and how new games are more productive in the first few months and then go completely dead.

There is no denying the noticeable difference when you are on the bottom server compared to the top one, they are poles apart.

Of course people like GLI, BMM, etc have the technical knowledge. It would be wholly irresponsible to have a test house that didn't have the technical knowledge to test the product they are supposed to be testing.

In fact, GLI quite often find bugs in games that our own internal QA has missed.

 

[Halvor]

Did you not see my earlier post a few pages ago about certain information being passed between the casino and provider ?

And I guess you decided to ignore my post pointing out that it's wrong

 

[trancemonkey]

Okay I cannot call this evidence because it is not but I can explain the technical process of how the providers would be able to put you onto different versions of the game without being caught. I work in IT and understand networks at a fairly high level so if I was a dodgy person working at one of these gaming providers this would be what I could do.

First of all when you hit a URL it sends you to an IP address of what appears to be the game server which will have a unique publicly facing IP address however it is not so simple as that because you are not hitting the server directly but rather a device called a load balancer. This load balancer then can look at certain information about you, source IP address and source MAC address (unique to a device) being the primary things however I am pretty sure high end ones can look at a lot more info about the user than just those 2 basic things.

Now that load balancer sits between that public IP address (router) and the actual servers themselves. There can easily be 10 different servers on the inside end of the network with the load balancer being the bridge between you and each of those servers, these servers could very easily have different RTP versions of the game. The load balancer could also in theory switch you between these versions without you even exiting the game or realizing that it has done so.

In a fair system this load balancer would randomly throw you to a random RTP version of the game but we all know when it comes to gambling if things were always fair someone could get extra lucky so it has to be controlled so that over the long term they make their money and the gambler loses his/hers. I am sure the providers would keep background databases to be able to lookup to see if someone has lost too much or won too much and based on this the load balancer could send you to either the highest paying server of the game or the one that is made to milk you dry quicker than you can count to 100.

As I said at the start this is not evidence or proof but if I worked in their network design team and was told by management to make sure that the player could only win enough to never let them get ahead but keep them hooked (don't allow them to lose too much to the point of never coming back) this is what I would implement.

Do you think that IGT or SG (for example) would risk their entire company in order to break the law and work, illegally, with all other vendors (competitiors) to get the exact same outcome that a truly random game would provide?

Do you even think through the hypothesis that you are making? If either of those companies were caught, they would instantly lose every licence to operate that they had which would, overnight, close down the company.

And you honestly think they would do this in order to make games behave in the exact same way that a random game does? That's a whole different level of crazy right there...

All these threads suffer from the exact same argument from ignorance, or the negative proof fallacy "No one can prove they are NOT rigged, so therefore they are." And they also suffer from the exact same issue in that no one has given a single cogent argument as to why providers would do all this illegal, morally bankrupt activity in order to product the exact same type of game play that happens with a legal, random game.

It defies all common sense, logic and reasoning. It makes no sense at all.

And yet people sit on these threads with little to no knowledge of what actually happens and claim some omniscience about the way the industry works.

It really does amaze me.

 

[funnymunny]

snip
... "No one can prove they are NOT rigged, so therefore they are." ...
snip

I generally tend to steer clear of these threads (for sake of my sanity), but I'm afraid there's a correction (expansion?) required in the above statement...

Assuming we're talking about games that are used by Operators in tier1 Regulated jurisdictions, people can of course prove the games aren't rigged - many of them and not only the developers. The aforementioned independent testing houses like BMM & GLI (who have zero financial interest in the performance or popularity of the games) is a great example. The trouble is peoples perception is their reality & truth / facts are often ignored.

@trancemonkey be assured I'm not trying to critique you, I respect your words, experience, and tireless efforts to enlighten those who aren't in the industry as to what happens inside it. I was just worried that your statement above could be misquoted in future & someone then states that you even admitted you can't prove games aren't rigged.

 

[trancemonkey]

I generally tend to steer clear of these threads (for sake of my sanity), but I'm afraid there's a correction (expansion?) required in the above statement...

Assuming we're talking about games that are used by Operators in tier1 Regulated jurisdictions, people can of course prove the games aren't rigged - many of them and not only the developers. The aforementioned independent testing houses like BMM & GLI (who have zero financial interest in the performance or popularity of the games). The trouble is peoples perception is their reality & truth / facts are often ignored.

@trancemonkey be assured I'm not trying to critique you, I respect your words, experience, and tireless efforts to enlighten those who aren't in the industry as to what happens inside it. I was just worried that your statement above could be misquoted in future & someone then states that you even admitted you can't prove games aren't rigged.

Thank you. You're right... but my point (maybe badly made!) was that I think most of the people on this thread wouldn't accept the proof that I, or anyone else, could give them.

I can prove games are not rigged. I know games are not rigged. But I honestly believe that regardless of whether I proved it or not, some people would still say I had lied.

 

[slot_zombie]

For some reason this thread seems have degenerated from completely legitimate concerns re established games having their gameplay quite legally nerfed, without notification to the player, into the old "compensated/rigged" drama...

 

[goatwack]

It's Trance's fault generally. He likes to ruin everything with his truth-bombs and get people's backs up

8 pages though, not bad all things considered!

 

[trancemonkey]

For some reason this thread seems have degenerated from completely legitimate concerns re established games having their gameplay quite legally nerfed, without notification to the player, into the old "compensated/rigged" drama...

Providers changing game play happens. Whether it happens as often as people think is questionable.

 

[sufferinsilence]

If you want to see rigged have a look at the provider Booongo in demo. I've ran up balances into the 10's of thousands in minutes time on their games. Sadly in real mode they are underwhelming.

 

[snorky510238]

It really is just random that you can play thousands of spins without having one hit you would call decent. Then on another session hit 7 or 8 decent wins within 100 spins. Then back to no hits in the next few thousand and repeat and repeat and repeat. I call that hmmmmm predictable that’s the safest word to use.

This happens relentlessly and we are supposed to believe it’s random.

 

[Halvor]

It really is just random that you can play thousands of spins without having one hit you would call decent. Then on another session hit 7 or 8 decent wins within 100 spins. Then back to no hits in the next few thousand and repeat and repeat and repeat. I call that hmmmmm predictable that’s the safest word to use.

This happens relentlessly and we are supposed to believe it’s random.

Yes, that's pretty much random. Things are not guaranteed to happen within a certain amount of spins because it's actually random, just as you can also have back to back free spins.

If you could predict something to happen within a set amount of time on the other hand then it would would not be random.

You do realise that RTP is not calculated on a few thousand spins right? But millions...

 

[snorky510238]

Yes, that's pretty much random. Things are not guaranteed to happen within a certain amount of spins because it's actually random, just as you can also have back to back free spins.

If you could predict something to happen within a set amount of time on the other hand then it would would not be random.

You do realise that RTP is not calculated on a few thousand spins right? But millions...

Oh is that where I have been going wrong?

 

[sufferinsilence]

What I have noticed many a time is that on some days some games (Reactoonz comes to mind) never pop up in the "big wins" sections on casino's, then the next day there'll be tens of those showing up on the same exact game. Very randomly alot of people suddenly manage to have big hits on the same slot

I know, it's probably all in my mind and I'm just having a biased look at the results..

 

[Slottery]

If these games are predictable, it gives educated player huge edge and easy way to win money when knowing after few rounds how game will pay and keep or stop playing depending what prediction tells you.

There's no need to play thousands of dead spins without any decent win if it can be predicted already from hundred or so amount of spins.

 

[snorky510238]

If these games are predictable, it gives educated player huge edge and easy way to win money when knowing after few rounds how game will pay and keep or stop playing depending what prediction tells you.

There's no need to play thousands of dead spins without any decent win if it can be predicted already from hundred or so amount of spins.

Unfortunately gamblers lack discipline.

 

[TamingTheBeast]

Thank you. You're right... but my point (maybe badly made!) was that I think most of the people on this thread wouldn't accept the proof that I, or anyone else, could give them.

I can prove games are not rigged. I know games are not rigged. But I honestly believe that regardless of whether I proved it or not, some people would still say I had lied.

You can't change crazy.

 

[goatwack]

I think players are more than entitled to raise a few eyebrows when it's copious amounts of money being churned through these creations. It's not an open-source tiddlywinks simulator we're discussing here.

And yet it's these amazingly negative patterns, yes patterns, that 'come to light', without fail, every time.

Where are the amazing winning patterns (formed in our own minds of course) in games that are supposed to be random. Why always negative, with predictable shut-off sequences?

I know I know, someone call the men in white coats etc

 

[brianmon]

Providers changing game play happens. Whether it happens as often as people think is questionable.

So... Let's say there's a medium-high variance game, with a 96% RTP, fully tested and certified.
Then the provider, for whatever reason, decides to change the maths to make it just a medium variance game, with the same 96% RTP, again it's fully tested and certified.

Will the original medium-high variance game then become void and unusable?
Or could a casino choose between the two versions?
Or even worse, could the provider switch between the two versions, at will?

 

[Bloatgoat]

You know what, I hope that I am wrong and it really is random but I am sure that the people doing the "testing" probably wouldn't have this technical knowledge and if it helps with UKGC and other regions regulators be able to implement checks for things like this after info gets out then I hope they are able to check all of this and prove me wrong.

I work all my life in IT. I got born and raised with a 286 laptop being shoved qbasic up my throat at my 12th. But there's more we proberly do not know about. A load balancer is proberly a bit too wide in my perspective. Casino's and game providers have certain DDOS protection so your "spin" tap is proberly going through alot more then you think. But this is not really the concern. What i 'sporadicly' had at some casino's was when i pressed spin, the game would kick me out instant saying an error occured and that was it.

Now what if (tinfoil-mode-on) a big win would appear from the gaming provider, and the casino itself intercepted this with some bogus packetsniffing and presented me with an error, while hiding the actual 'big win' in front of my face.

You know testing is just the random bunch of tests to make sure the RNG or game operates within standards. And i know casino's do cheat in a certain way bypassing those generic values, just like car makers do while testing their vehicles on the track for MPG for example. They remove the mirrors, inflate the tires as hard as possible, block any what is an airfuct on a vehicle to get the best results, while in practice, these results completely differ from what we see in the papers.

If i was a rogue casino, and i wanted to create more profit, there's certain ways, or there's a reason sort of say why some casino's hide their RTP presented in games. You can have a 97% RTP but never really win big. Do casino's have the choice to select a volatility? Bigger? More equal? Or a more less-risk free for the casino itself?

I was thinking to quit the online play business. I'm having a serious loss streak after 65k of win on one casino. How is that random for you? Up to 10k deposit in roughly 2 months, still nothing. I'm electronicly being wagered till a certain point and boom. I seriously doubt these randomness bullshit story's all over the place. 65k sounds really great for those of you but you proberly did'nt seen the shit i depositted before that time.

As OP states in this thread, he never seems to get ahead on his avg deposits. I'm affraid more and more casino's are shifting now towards this model of keeping you sucked in instead of real gambling where the odds are still on our favor.

Taxes, laws, regulations, marketing costs, you name it. Everything is eventually funded by players. Not casino's.

This is the best thread ever on CM, and I can well believe that in some if not many cases players are being cheated! Look at the poker scandals there have been. Money corrupts many people!

Not just that. There was hacked online casino slots a long time ago on the net. The RTP could be changed on the fly in a demo-video on youtube. There are rogue casino's out there operating on slots that are not certified by license instances. But these are already far gone.

I know people living on malta these days, became stinking rich of the online casino business. That was'nt just for the favored odds or so. But people bulldozing in serious money because of a gambling addiction. It's more and more on the news these days, people just stealing to feed their habbits. And not just 10 euro, no, we're talking into millions of euro's.

Such a sad future ahead for alot of new generations.

 

[pinnit2014]

Trance can't answer anymore - apparently his head's blew off.

He was found scrawling the words 'Snorky, it's true, they're all rigg...'

We can only surmise what he was trying to say before the incident.

 

[Bloatgoat]

Oh i think Trance is legit, i'm sure the industry has legit people running around. But where there's money involved there's greed. And a slight change in any game related to payout could bring lots of funds to the table for all party's.

 

[snorky510238]

Trance can't answer anymore - apparently his head's blew off.

He was found scrawling the words 'Snorky, it's true, they're all rigg...'

We can only surmise what he was trying to say before the incident.

Snorky is innocent.

 

[trancemonkey]

If you want to see rigged have a look at the provider Booongo in demo. I've ran up balances into the 10's of thousands in minutes time on their games. Sadly in real mode they are underwhelming.

It really is just random that you can play thousands of spins without having one hit you would call decent. Then on another session hit 7 or 8 decent wins within 100 spins. Then back to no hits in the next few thousand and repeat and repeat and repeat. I call that hmmmmm predictable that’s the safest word to use.

This happens relentlessly and we are supposed to believe it’s random.

The fact that this happens is entirely proof it's random...

 

[trancemonkey]

What I have noticed many a time is that on some days some games (Reactoonz comes to mind) never pop up in the "big wins" sections on casino's, then the next day there'll be tens of those showing up on the same exact game. Very randomly alot of people suddenly manage to have big hits on the same slot

I know, it's probably all in my mind and I'm just having a biased look at the results..

Almost as if it's random...

 

[trancemonkey]

If these games are predictable, it gives educated player huge edge and easy way to win money when knowing after few rounds how game will pay and keep or stop playing depending what prediction tells you.

There's no need to play thousands of dead spins without any decent win if it can be predicted already from hundred or so amount of spins.

If games were compensated, then advantage play would be possible...

 

[trancemonkey]

Trance can't answer anymore - apparently his head's blew off.

He was found scrawling the words 'Snorky, it's true, they're all rigg...'

We can only surmise what he was trying to say before the incident.

It's like a full blown murder mystery....

 

[trancemonkey]

Oh i think Trance is legit, i'm sure the industry has legit people running around. But where there's money involved there's greed. And a slight change in any game related to payout could bring lots of funds to the table for all party's.

And I'm sure there are, in corners of this industry, all sorts of shady games providers and casinos. This is not really in question...however, in regulated markets I can all but guarantee that these shady companies do NOT legally operate. I.e all the big providers are above board.

 

[trancemonkey]

Oh i think Trance is legit, i'm sure the industry has legit people running around. But where there's money involved there's greed. And a slight change in any game related to payout could bring lots of funds to the table for all party's.

Awww thanks mate

 

[trancemonkey]

So... Let's say there's a medium-high variance game, with a 96% RTP, fully tested and certified.
Then the provider, for whatever reason, decides to change the maths to make it just a medium variance game, with the same 96% RTP, again it's fully tested and certified.

Will the original medium-high variance game then become void and unusable?
Or could a casino choose between the two versions?
Or even worse, could the provider switch between the two versions, at will?

Casinos already choose between versions when it comes to RTP selection. Every RTP variant requires testing, verification and certification.

It is technically possible for a provider to make multiple versions of the same game available to a casino, but I am not sure of the legality around this. I think it would not be allowed to randomly (or even purposely) assign different versions of the game to different people.

 

[Kroffe]

Casinos already choose between versions when it comes to RTP selection. Every RTP variant requires testing, verification and certification.

It is technically possible for a provider to make multiple versions of the same game available to a casino, but I am not sure of the legality around this. I think it would not be allowed to randomly (or even purposely) assign different versions of the game to different people.

But isnt that what Vs for example is doing?
Assigning different versions of slots based on where you play from (atleast it used to be like that before all markets got the low-rtp version)

Or do you mean multiple versions of the same rtp%?
Im not sure about this, but isnt that what those MAX versions of netent slots are basically?
More volatile versions of the same game.
I have not checked, and the rtp may be different in the different versions, i just thought it was same rtp, different volatility.

 

[sufferinsilence]

Almost as if it's random...

Almost... If it was completely random those big wins wouldn't be concentrated on the same couple of hours of the same day but scattered throughout every single day.

Book of Ra has this same habit, sometimes you'll see a concentration of tens of big wins in an hour time... Then days of nothingness.

I'm sure all that's classified as random in legal speak but for the player it doesn't seem like it. But there is no reason to discuss this with you because you'll say it's random and completely by the book, which is most likely 100% true.

 

[sufferinsilence]

The fact that this happens is entirely proof it's random...

The Booongo thing isn't random, their demo mode isn't the same RTP as real play. That can't be legal

 

[trancemonkey]

The Booongo thing isn't random, their demo mode isn't the same RTP as real play. That can't be legal

If they aren't UK facing, then it doesnt matter

 

[sufferinsilence]

If they aren't UK facing, then it doesnt matter

The gambling world is more than just the UK, isn't it? Is this allowed on MGA or Curacao casino's? I'm not sure on which sites you can actually play this provider, I know of 1 Belgian site that offers them but I'd have to dive in our legislation to see if that is actually allowed. I can't imagine it is. Not that our GC gives a rats ass, I have raised a complaint with them on another matter since 2 months ago and they haven't even acknowledged it yet.

 

[goatwack]

The fact that powerhouse providers like....Booongo (snarf) and companies in the industry *can* and *do* display bent behaviour is reason enough to distrust casino companies as a whole. Nuff said!