Possible pressure tactics?

[LondonDJ]

Dear friends,

First some brief history, I’ve been playing at Aspinalls (part of the Fortune Lounge Group) for some time (a year I think) and it’s become my go to choice for MG slots. I’ve played a fair bit and reached gold status. No problems worth speaking of – reasonable cashouts and always got paid in fair time. They’ve also been decent to me when I’ve had a run of horrible luck which happens from time to time; sometimes giving me a comp here and there when I asked for one.

In recent months my pattern of play has changed as I began spreading my deposits around different online casinos and low/mid-rolling a lot more. Much of this shift is actually down to reading the forum on here and just being a bit more disciplined about how I play.

So, last month my bank issued me with a new debit card. After deleting my old one from my Aspinalls account and trying to register the new one I got error messages and had to contact support. I did this and they tried a couple of things on the system with no luck. They gave me an address to email, which I did. I got no response from that email so after a while I contacted live chat again and they managed to get things working. This wasn’t as simple as it sounds however. Here is the pertinent excerpt from the chat:

Me: the problem is, my bank sent me a new VISA DEBIT card, so I tried to delete the old one from my account, so that I could register the new one.
Me: I couldn't do this so I contacted support and Charlene tried to do it for me. But now I cannot register a new card.
Me: I get this error message: You have reached the maximum number of cards you may register.
Kimberly: Is the ca5rd the same ? What has changed on the card Daniel?
Me: it is a new card on exactly the same account - the only thing that has changed is the long card number and the security code
Me: you know when your card expires and they send you a new one? that is what has happened basically
Kimberly: So all I need to update is the expiry date?
Me: no, it's a new card number as well - the long number made up of sixteen digits. it's a new start date, expiry date and long card number. and a new security (CVV) code.
Me: Charlene said that she had "locked" my old card - I'm not sure if that's helpful?
Kimberly: Okay then , I will remove the old one
Kimberly: I appreciate your patience; I’ll be with you shortly
Me: many thanks
Kimberly: The card has been removed , you should be able to add a new one.
Me: ok, pls wait while I try that now?
Me: still getting the same error message
Me: shall I try and close and reopen the casino?
Kimberly: Yes , It should work then .
Me: trying now
Kimberly: Restart the software completely.
Me: same error message
Kimberly: You will not be able to add another Credit card
Kimberly: There are restrictions set on your account . You will need to use a web wallet such as neteller or moneybookers for deposits.
Me: but I don't understand - I was using 1 card, 1 account. I am no longer using that card but a new one - same account. Is this something that the software can't handle?
Me: Kimberley?
Me: Are you still there?
Kimberly: We apologize for the inconvenience caused. I will reset your card registration limits
Kimberly: Yopu should be able to add new cards now.
Kimberly: I apologize for the inconvenience Daniel.
Me: Ok. Thanks very much - I have just tried it and it seems to be working fine now.


So basically, they shifted [very abruptly] from “You have to use a web wallet” to “It’s fixed”. And it was (this was last month I think). This seemed a bit odd to me but I figure perhaps they had looked at my account, seen that I spend a fair bit and then thought – ok fine, let him use a debit card. Or possibly it was some kind of computer issue. I really don’t know.

So, today I tried to deposit and I got another error message. A different one. Went on chat and this is what happened:



You are now chatting with Kimberly
________________________________________
Kimberly: Welcome! It is great to have you with us. I am here to help you with anything you might need assistance with!
Me: Hi Kim
Me: tried to deposit and keep getting an error msg
Me: my details are: XXXXXXXX
Me: any idea what's happening?
Me: thanks
Kimberly: Thank you for your details Daniel .
Kimberly: What does the error message say?
Me: your transaction could not be completed
Me: pls try again later or contact support
Me: v odd
Me: It's like it's not even trying to do the transaction because it’s very fast
Me: not like normal when it takes 10 seconds or so to authorise
Me: I had a problem at the beginning of the month with a new card but this got sorted by you guys - maybe that has something to do with it?
Me: Kimberley? Are you still with me?
Kimberly: I am Daniel
Me:
Kimberly: Please give me a moment to view your account.
Me: cool
Kimberly: Are you having issues using your credit card? They can be such a hassle sometimes! Why don’t you switch over to one of the many excellent Web Wallet facilities available to you? They are so much more convenient than credit cards, especially since they are globally accredited and accepted.

Would you like to register for your own Web Wallet account?
Me: erm, no thanks
Kimberly: It would work out better .
Kimberly: All is fine on your account now Daniel , Please try to deposit odd amounts and keep trying .
Me: Just tried and still doesn't work
Me: what do you mean by odd amounts please? Just any amount?
Kimberly: Instead of the straight amounts like 50 , 100 , try 89
Kimberly: 43
________________________________________
Thank you for using our live chat service. Your current chat session has now ended

At this point the chat cut off. I restarted it…

________________________________________
You are now chatting with Kimberly
________________________________________
Kimberly: Welcome! It is great to have you with us. I am here to help you with anything you might need assistance with!
Me: Hi Kimberley, we were just chatting
Me: You just advised me to deposit odd amounts
Kimberly: Yes I apologise we got cut off.
Me: No problem. Might I ask why this will make a difference? Is there some problem with debit cards now?
Kimberly: Are you having issues using your credit card? They can be such a hassle sometimes! Why don’t you switch over to one of the many excellent Web Wallet facilities available to you? They are so much more convenient than credit cards, especially since they are globally accredited and accepted.

Would you like to register for your own Web Wallet account?
Me: lol, we have already been down this road I think. I'm not going to do that thanks anyway. My question is, is there a problem of some kind with debit cards? I’ve been playing with you guys for some time and I like playing with you - it's a good service and I'm a Gold member here. I want to keep playing with you but if there's a problem with using my debit card then that's makes it difficult.
Kimberly: There is no problem, but just keep trying if you are not interested in the web wallet registration.
Me: ok, thanks. And depositing odd amounts - why/how does that make a difference?
Kimberly: It may Daniel.
Me: do you know why?
Kimberly: I do not know, Just keep trying and try to restart your computer .
Me: right. Ok. Thanks for your help today and all the best, Dan


This chat left me with a slightly unpleasant taste in my mouth and I deposited elsewhere instead. The sense I have is that I’m being pushed to register a web wallet, something which I will not do. I’ve looked into it, examined various options and I don’t trust them. I won't do it. Simple as that.

My question to you folks (and GOD BLESS you if you’ve stayed with me throughout this long and rambling post) is, what is going on here? Have any of you had similar experiences? Is this simply the casino trying to make/save a few extra bucks through web wallets? And what is the mystery of depositing odd amounts?

Any light you can shine on this would be much appreciated. And of course, if the Fortune Lounge rep would care to respond that would be very welcome.

Thanks for reading.

 

[uxix]

Not sure about the web wallets but a while back i used to deposit at a MG casino with debit cards and btw i could add/remove as many cards as i wanted..and when a limit was reached "5 cards i think" i would just contact support and they would remove all the cards and allow me to add new ones.

Anyways my deposits never worked when i tried 250$ for example..but 249.98 would always work for some reason or (99.98 instead of 100)..it was explained to me then but i dont remember .. something to do with making it look like a "purchase" for an item or something and not a deposit to a casino..

 

[petro]

The sense I have is that I’m being pushed to register a web wallet...

Obi-Wan: Your insight serves you well.

Absolutely, the CR was trying to sell you on Web Wallet. It is probably cheaper for the casino to accept Web Wallet.

 

[LondonDJ]

thanks very much both. I thought I was getting pressured a bit. Much appreciated.

 

[vinylweatherman]

Obi-Wan: Your insight serves you well.

Absolutely, the CR was trying to sell you on Web Wallet. It is probably cheaper for the casino to accept Web Wallet.

It seems odd, given the VERY negative attitude casinos like Ladbrokes have to players using webwallets. There is CLEARLY something going on that they are not telling us, but it seems different operators have wildly differing views.

Ladbrokes, for example, increase the WR for qualifying for a promotion by 2000%, simply because a webwallet was used to deposit, rather than a credit card. Aspinalls seem VERY KEEN that their players NOT use cards, but move to webwallets. Vegas Partner lounge go one step further, and give an extra 15% ON TOP of any other bonus available, just for depositing WITH a webwallet to claim it, instead of a card.

Ladbrokes REALLY don't trust the webwallets to protect them from something, so are trying to drive players away from using them; and if LADBROKES don't trust them, why should we expect PLAYERS to trust them just because a different operator "likes" them more than cards.


Depositing odd amounts to make it look like a purchase is something for the US, and other countries where banks are blocking gambling transactions, and casinos are deliberately miscoding them to look like purchases, in which case the odd amounts makes the deception work better.

This will NOT work for the UK though, because the transactions are NOT disguised through miscoding, and will appear as a gambling related purchase whether it's 250 or 249.98

I think it is more likely to be a software issue, because I have had CONSTANT problems with MGS banking since the February update, with spurious "an error has occurred" messages. Often hust closing the software and relaunching, and going direct to banking, makes it work again. Failing this, it will work in the Flash casino, even though the download constantly gives errors.

The most difficult and persistent problem I am having is registering cards new to an account. It goes through all the steps as far as the "register now" button, but then gives the generic "an error has occurred, please try later". Completely out of the blue, and after many failed attempts, I actually managed to get it to WORK on Yukon Gold, but it was a one off, and now it has failed half a dozen times on other accounts.

Even reinstalling the software has not fixed it, let alone just closing and opening it.


I think the above U-turn from CS was down to the implication that the player would simply not bother to deposit, rather than shift to a webwallet, so they suddenly managed to fix the problem.

This is probably the BEST way to weed out the "pressure tactic" from the GENUINE "can't fix it".


CS - Sorry, we can't fix the problem, you will have to use a webwallet.
Player - OK, my new card works fine at <insert competitor here>, so I'll play there this weekend, and try again later next week (month) when the problem will probably clear of it's own accord.

 

[NicolasJohnson]

Different casinos will take different attitudes toward processing depending on a great number of variables.

To try to explain, here is a completely hypothetical example:

For A casino:

If they receive webwallet called ABC, then:
They must pay webwallet X% fee for processing the transaction
They must pay webwallet $A fee per charge back
They must pay webwallet Y% withholding fee for N months (released every month on a rolling basis)
They will only get paid by the webwallet every H time frame (this affects cash flow)
They deal with B% of charge backs from this payment option
The average payout for players who use this method is Z%
The average soft-dollar cost for proper fraud investigation per transaction based on this method is $Q
The average soft-dollar cost for proper customers service per transaction based on this method is $T

Now to make matters more complicated, those variables may change based on volume (so you might be charged a higher fee if you are moving lower volume than high, or your cost for fraud prevention may go down with volume)

If they use a CC processor, these variables will be completely different, as well as also change based on volume (at a different rate) than the web wallet ones.

And this will interact differently based on each company's position (cash flow, expansion plans, market dominance, reputation, relationship to processors, customer base, average customer deposit, expected charge backs, their software licensing costs, etc)

In short, what method a casino chooses to prefer is based on a large number of variables. I agree any casino pushing players too hard in any direction is a bad idea. But I can completely understand why they would take one method over the next, and it isn't always about 'trustworthiness' but rather complex business relationships. I will say 'risk assessment of the e wallet' is a factor, but far from the only one.

Kind Regards,
Nicolas Johnson
Bet Phoenix Casino Affiliates Manager

 

[vinylweatherman]

Different casinos will take different attitudes toward processing depending on a great number of variables.

To try to explain, here is a completely hypothetical example:

For A casino:

If they receive webwallet called ABC, then:
They must pay webwallet X% fee for processing the transaction
They must pay webwallet $A fee per charge back
They must pay webwallet Y% withholding fee for N months (released every month on a rolling basis)
They will only get paid by the webwallet every H time frame (this affects cash flow)
They deal with B% of charge backs from this payment option
The average payout for players who use this method is Z%
The average soft-dollar cost for proper fraud investigation per transaction based on this method is $Q
The average soft-dollar cost for proper customers service per transaction based on this method is $T

Now to make matters more complicated, those variables may change based on volume (so you might be charged a higher fee if you are moving lower volume than high, or your cost for fraud prevention may go down with volume)

If they use a CC processor, these variables will be completely different, as well as also change based on volume (at a different rate) than the web wallet ones.

And this will interact differently based on each company's position (cash flow, expansion plans, market dominance, reputation, relationship to processors, customer base, average customer deposit, expected charge backs, their software licensing costs, etc)

In short, what method a casino chooses to prefer is based on a large number of variables. I agree any casino pushing players too hard in any direction is a bad idea. But I can completely understand why they would take one method over the next, and it isn't always about 'trustworthiness' but rather complex business relationships. I will say 'risk assessment of the e wallet' is a factor, but far from the only one.

Kind Regards,
Nicolas Johnson
Bet Phoenix Casino Affiliates Manager

The player sees NONE of this, and chooses the method THEY prefer from their OWN "business model". This is likely to include factors such as speed of payment, and number of hoops the casino requires them to jump through for a particular method.

With a CC deposit, the casino makes the player jump through MORE hoops than when a webwallet has been used. Withdrawals back to webwallets are much QUICKER. On the other hand, some casinos HATE the webwallets down to factors at their end. The player has already made their choice, and is usually perfectly happy with it. They DON'T like it when a particular casino appears to be "inventing technical faults" in order to frustrate their use of their preferred method, and this looks very much the case where a players' problem is brushed aside unanswered by CS with the remark "change to ABC to make your deposits, this will work better".
The player may have a neutral stance on ABC as a method, but they may have already been a victim of ABC in an earlier dealing, or have read a number of cases on the forums where ABC clearly didn't give a **** about the problems one of their customers was having, or just jerked them around.
It may even be that the player cannot FUND method ABC because of their OWN particular circumstances, and believes that if they managed to get ABC working, they would find it just as impossible to get their money out.

If a casino has a method available, players expect it TO be available when they want to use it.

To the casino, it might be cashflow management, but to a player, it's being "jerked around", rather than being paid, or being able to deposit.


If casinos want to drive up volume for a particular method, they should give players an extra incentive for using it, rather than PUNISH players who use the methods they want to LOWER volumes on.

 

[NicolasJohnson]

The player sees NONE of this, and chooses the method THEY prefer from their OWN "business model". This is likely to include factors such as speed of payment, and number of hoops the casino requires them to jump through for a particular method.

With a CC deposit, the casino makes the player jump through MORE hoops than when a webwallet has been used. Withdrawals back to webwallets are much QUICKER. On the other hand, some casinos HATE the webwallets down to factors at their end. The player has already made their choice, and is usually perfectly happy with it. They DON'T like it when a particular casino appears to be "inventing technical faults" in order to frustrate their use of their preferred method, and this looks very much the case where a players' problem is brushed aside unanswered by CS with the remark "change to ABC to make your deposits, this will work better".
The player may have a neutral stance on ABC as a method, but they may have already been a victim of ABC in an earlier dealing, or have read a number of cases on the forums where ABC clearly didn't give a **** about the problems one of their customers was having, or just jerked them around.
It may even be that the player cannot FUND method ABC because of their OWN particular circumstances, and believes that if they managed to get ABC working, they would find it just as impossible to get their money out.

If a casino has a method available, players expect it TO be available when they want to use it.

To the casino, it might be cashflow management, but to a player, it's being "jerked around", rather than being paid, or being able to deposit.


If casinos want to drive up volume for a particular method, they should give players an extra incentive for using it, rather than PUNISH players who use the methods they want to LOWER volumes on.

100% agreed. Rewards is the way to go to get users to select certain payment methods.

I was just, giving the explanation as to why one deposit method would be pushed over another. It is a complex decision. But 100% agreed that any persuasion should be done via rewards (except in the case of fraud prevention, like a known charge back player being requested to send money via a non-charge-back-able method)

Kind Regards,
Nicolas Johnson
Bet Phoenix Casino Affiliates Manager

 

[fortunelounge]

Hi LondonDJ

Just to clarify, Aspinalls is not part of the Fortune Lounge Group.

It is not the policy of our Group to pressurise any player into using any specific purchase method.

However, with increasing purchasing issues we will recommend alternative purchase methods to players where they are experiencing difficulties with purchasing credits. Some players are not comfortable using web wallets and we have to respect that.

Regards

Wim
VP Operations
Fortune Lounge Group

 

[baldidiot]

Just to clarify, Aspinalls is not part of the Fortune Lounge Group.

It's a Vegas Partner Lounge / Star Partner casino:

You do not have permission to view link Log in or register now.

Their CM rep is here: https://www.casinomeister.com/forums/members/

 

[LondonDJ]

Thanks very much for all the comments and explanations guys - things are much clearer to me now and there's some very helpful info there.

Also my sincere apologies to Fortune Lounge group and thanks to the rep for correcting me on this oversight. I should have double-checked the group name before I posted. Very sorry!

 

[Wibbler]

I thought that places Ladbrokes hated e-wallets because it's much easier to set up a fraudulent moneybookers account than it is to set up a fraudulent credit/debit card account. But I suppose that's balanced out by the CC chargeback issues. I prefer e-wallets because payouts are usually quicker. Even with the fasted card you usually have to wait 2 days for your cash...