PlumGaming withholding payments while inquiring into supposed 'bot' play.

[RobWin]

It seems like they have been severely underfunded ever since they first came on the scene as the complaints started coming in as soon as players started playing and cashing out there...

 

[blizeH]

Just a suggestion, but do you guys think it could be a good idea to remove all links (and refences) to the various bot providers? It's probably not a big deal, but I think only bad things can come from it; whether it's random users checking them out, or more importantly, casino reps seeing it and removing their bonuses (so everyone loses out).

Cheers

 

[Bindiana_Jones]

This seems like just another excuse to try to slow play players to me. I played at them a while back and they ended up taking months to pay.

I'm glad I never got tempted back with all the offers they've been emailing me.

Also just been reading over their terms and can't see anywere where they say 'bot' play isn't allowed:
Link Removed ( Old/Invalid)

Surely they can't just decide to refuse to pay players that have used bots when they don't dissalow it in their terms?

 

[evoid]

Bindy Jones, you got me confused for a minute because last night I asked myself the same question and checked this really quickly and I found , without surprise, a part of their terms where they disallow bots. After reading your post tonight I checked again and I couldn't find it. I had time to ask myself : 'Why on Earth would they have removed this at this point?' before finally finding the quote from last night. It's here (Link Removed ( Old/Invalid) ), under 'GENERAL POKER RULES'.

I must thank you for bringing forward the point that their terms, as of today, don't even disallow bots for casino play.

 

[homerj]

Just thought i'd chip in with a programming viewpoint on the bots currently on the market.

They all work in the same manner and simply copy an area of the screen where the cards appear and compare the image with a stored version.

This has 2 major faults.

1) Computers are dumb ! a subtle undetectable to the human eye change in the image will confuse the bot. Screen reading is known as OCR (optical character recognition) and is not 100% reliable. check it out on google.

2) They employ no anti-detection code. They are very easy to detect. Anyone who thinks randomising mouse clicks avoids detection but still lists the bot in task manager clearly has no idea what they are talking about. Its only a matter of time before you find casino providers detecting these, they probably already have and are compiling data. And will they alert you ? No they'll just refuse to pay you for cheating.

Bots are good long term for the bonus hunters. Bots attract mainly multi accounters who play for bonuses for 24hrs a day. Get rid of these and bonuses will return.

 

[Przecinek]

I don't belive in their "Bot" excuse - it's just another attempt to justify longer and longer delays in payment.

Some time ago I have requested a withdrawal from Plum, and had to wait for ages. Only after complaining on CM forum did I get my winnings credited.

 

[thelawnet]

Just thought i'd chip in with a programming viewpoint on the bots currently on the market.

They all work in the same manner and simply copy an area of the screen where the cards appear and compare the image with a stored version.

How would you know?

This has 2 major faults.

1) Computers are dumb ! a subtle undetectable to the human eye change in the image will confuse the bot. Screen reading is known as OCR (optical character recognition) and is not 100% reliable. check it out on google.

What you are describing is not OCR, it is just comparing pixels in images.

OCR actually attempts to recognise a collection of pixels as a letter or number. OCR is more sophisticated and more computationally intensive than just pixel comparison, whereas the latter would be defeated by changing the font, the former would not.

The bottom line, to actually defeat a computer, the only reliable technique is to use a captcha, i.e. one of those very difficult to read images with lots of dots or squiggly lines over it. This is obviously a non-starter, as it would put off the existing players.

The other approach would be to try and mimic MMO games, and make the game much more 'invasive' of the user's sytem, but again, this is counterproductive.

2) They employ no anti-detection code. They are very easy to detect. Anyone who thinks randomising mouse clicks avoids detection but still lists the bot in task manager clearly has no idea what they are talking about. Its only a matter of time before you find casino providers detecting these, they probably already have and are compiling data. And will they alert you ? No they'll just refuse to pay you for cheating.

How is a casino running inside a sandbox in an Internet Explorer window going to check what processes are running? Besides which the bots could be camoflagued if need be, much like a virus would be, disguised as system process or something like that.

 

[homerj]

A simple screen read and copy is not sufficient. I was merely explaining the screen reading principle. All of the major software providers require some degree of OCR due to frequent software updates which would make static bots constantly in need of updates.

I have reverse engineered the popular bots on sale and confirmed they all take screen shots - this is very easy to identify and detect.

I agree that bots can be obscured like virus's but the bots currently on sale do not use these techniques, nor even claim to do so !

I'd be careful if relying on a sandbox for protection. their aim is to protect from malicious updates of info but reads are normally permitted otherwise functionality would be lost.

Interesting article :

You do not have permission to view link Log in or register now.

 

[Squish]

I am not a computer/programming expert such as yourself. If as you say this method is "not 100% reliable" then I don't see why there is a problem. I thought the claim was that they "enhanced play" rather than "pissed money away too quickly". This would make Plum Gaming's complaint sound even more like a money-snatching attempt.

Also, surely any other method would be prone to similar flaws. The two I have heard of are intercepting packets and hunting in memory. Ignoring the fact that both of these are probably illegal in a gambling context, what would happen if I encoded the ace of clubs as Kh? Same problem except this time the bot would have no hope of telling.

 

[homerj]

For me the main issues are :

Casino software providers will always want to ban bot users. They will always want to stop something that claims an advantage even if that is spurious. They make the rules, this is not negotiable.

Casino software can employ a number of techniques to identify bots

Current bots on the market take no precautions to avoid detection

Current bots employ techniques which are not reliable while claiming they are (OCR)

if you've paid for a bot offering no defence along with 1000 other people expect to get banned at some point

 

[evoid]

On October 9, I received the following message :

Dear Player

Just a quick email to thank you for your continued patience and understanding during this security procedure.

We have almost completed the process now and okayed and paid out to just short of 200 accounts. We only have a few more left and we hope to have everything resolved within the next 10 days.

If you are still awaiting a payout we understand that your patience may well be wearing thin but we are moving as fast as we can.

Once again, thank you very much.

Kind regards

THE PLUM GAMING TEAM

It's been twelve days now and I haven't heard any more from them. This is dragging...

 

[maxd]

... I haven't heard any more from them. This is dragging...

I don't think anyone has. We're all waiting for them to finish whatever it is they have to do and return to doing business.

 

[evoid]

I emailed Plum for an update. They replied that unfortunately my account is among those about which they still have 'reservations'. I hope this isn't retribution for having posted here. They said they'll have either paid me or explained why not in seven days.

In the light of this I requested them to email me my full detailed Play History for the dates concerned but they haven't replied to that.

I will email them again, asking them to send my play history to Max.
I am confident that my play history is evidence that I haven't used a bot.

I believe that I am entitled to my full detailed play history and that an inquiry cannot be fair unless my play history is submitted for review.

 

[maxd]

IMO, it's time for Plum to wrap up their "investigation" and start addressing these outstanding issues. These have dragged on for well over a month now and that's enough to test anyone's patience.

(Sorry, just assumed that others knew: there are several PABs backed up pending their "investigation". None of these have moved in weeks.)

 

[evoid]

I just spoke on the phone with Net Entertainement's CEO assistant, Oscar Lundquist.

He seemed to take interest in the matter. He promised to refer the case to the person in charge of Plum Gaming. I told him that I initially felt safe playing at Plum because in my mind NetEnt implies a fair gaming experience. He seemed to value the importance of maintaining Netentertainment's good track record.

If Netentertainment can help this inquiry process to be fair and square, they will have done all that is needed for me to get paid.

I gave Oscar my contact details as well as a link to this thread, so that they can get a better feel of what is at stake, from other points of view than my own.

 

[Pinababy69]

If I'm not mistaken, NetEntertainment (the software provider itself), has recently been given eCOGRA certification. Should the PAB process fail, it would be well worth your while to file a formal complaint with them.

At the very least, NetEnt will be compelled to provide you (and eCOGRA) with the game logs which you have requested.

Another one to watch for me.....as I'm curious what route eCOGRA will take on this one.

Edited to add link to relevant eCOGRA thread:

https://www.casinomeister.com/forums/threads/ecogra-accreditation-for-netentertainment.27482/

 

[maxd]

I just spoke on the phone with Net Entertainement's CEO assistant, Oscar Lundquist.

Good on ya! Excellent initiative there!

Should the PAB process fail, it would be well worth your while to file a formal complaint with them.

Quite so, but there's no reason to fear at this point. Plum has put every PAB I have filed with them over the last month or six weeks on hold pending their 'investigation'. I think we've got three or four of them backed up now.

 

[Pinababy69]

Quite so, but there's no reason to fear at this point. Plum has put every PAB I have filed with them over the last month or six weeks on hold pending their 'investigation'. I think we've got three or four of them backed up now.

Fair enough Max, not trying to butt in. I just wanted to provide another route for the OP should your efforts not prove fruitful.

 

[maxd]

... not trying to butt in. I just wanted to provide another route for the OP ....

No worries, didn't see any problem at all with the eCOGRA mention. As you say, good for the OP to know.

 

[evoid]

Plum emailed me to say they are making arrangements to pay my two pending withdrawals in full. They requested my bank information in order to set up a bank transfer.

They made no mention of the inquiry.

I will update when I receive the money.

 

[winbig]

Plum emailed me to say they are making arrangements to pay my two pending withdrawals in full. They requested my bank information in order to set up a bank transfer.

They made no mention of the inquiry.

I will update when I receive the money.

wow, not even a "we're sorry" from them for falsely accusing you? That would definitely seal the deal if it were me - that they'd never see another penny from me again.

Thanks for the update, and glad you're getting paid!

 

[evoid]

By saying, after many weeks of inquiry, that they still had reservations about my account, they were getting scarily close of a clear cut accusation, but they never went that far.

Still, I agree that a simple word of excuse would have been appropriate.

That said, I can confirm that I am now paid in full!

Thanks to everyone for their support.

 

[maxd]

FWIW, it sounds like you were lucky. There are other outstanding issues that they have not moved on in spite of claiming having done so.

 

[evoid]

I just realized that I haven't heard a peep from the good people at NetEntertainment either. Perhaps they learned that I had gotten paid and didn't feel the need to follow up on it. Perhaps it's their involvement that got me paid. Or perhaps they just never cared enough to move finger. Sadly I can't tell and I'm not curious enough to invest more time and energy into trying to find out.

Any new development with the other PaBs?

 

[maxd]

Any new development with the other PaBs?

Some yes, some no. I'm still not convinced these guys are taking their responsibilities seriously, at least not insofar as the players are concerned.

Later: To be fair I should mention that they've promised payment on some of these issues by the end of the week.