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PlumGaming withholding payments while inquiring into supposed 'bot' play.

Discussion in 'Casino Complaints - Bonus Issues' started by evoid, Sep 28, 2008.

    Sep 28, 2008
  1. evoid

    evoid Dormant account

    Location:
    Montreal, Canada
    I received this from PlumGaming on Sept. 26 :
    As a player affected by the payout delay, I have already emailed the casino stating that, although I played some JoB videopoker (I played primarily Texas Hold'em Pro), I did so without the use of a bot or any form of software assistance.
    The problem is that even though they say players who played fairly should no worry, I cannot help worrying. For instance, I ask myself if this isn't just an excuse to delay/deny payouts. I also ask myself what method they will use to determine who, if anyone, has been using a bot. I remember that one of the high points of the 'pirate' case came when RTG people revealed that
    their software cannot track mouse movements. If this is also true of the NetEntertainment software, that leaves as possible telltales : time intervals between clicks (a bot would presumably click at more regular time intervals than a human) and (that's where it gets scary) perfect strategy. It strikes me that these 'bot indicators' are all at least somewhat problematic which is why I believe this whole 'witholding payments during our bot inquiry' thing to be problematic itself.
     
  2. Sep 28, 2008
  3. winbig

    winbig Keep winning this amount.

    Occupation:
    Bum
    Location:
    Pennsylvania
    This is ridiculous. For them to assume that a bot will simply play in a patternable fashion just shows that they don't know wtf they're talking about. IF I were to program a bot for the sole purpose of playing casino games for cash, I would certainly program it so that EVERY step is 100% random, including times between clicks. Hell, it might even be worthwhile to throw in a random "double" every now and then for good measure as well as a 'trip to the bathroom' break. Therefore, there would be NO trace that would leave them to believe it wasn't a human playing the game.
     
  4. Sep 28, 2008
  5. vinylweatherman

    vinylweatherman You type well loads CAG MM

    Occupation:
    STILL At Leisure
    Location:
    United Kingdom
    VERY scary indeed! It seems they are using this as a reason for a GLOBAL suspension of payments, even though only a few players are thought to be using bots. This is a CASINO, not a POKER site, so there can be NO EFFECT on OTHER PLAYERS unless they have some multi-player games. I do not believe that Jacks or Better is played against another player, and that ONLY leaves the possibility of bot play on a multi-player Blackjack table.

    Perfect strategy alone is NOT EVIDENCE of bot play, it can indicate an experienced player who has played the game for a LONG time, OR simply someone who has printed out a strategy table from somewhere, and is using it.

    IF they are looking at hand histories as they state, the ONLY indicator they can be looking for is sustained perfect play over a prolonged period, with no "hand stretching" or "piss breaks" interrupting the regular clicking of the controls.
    Where the games have a natural house edge, bot play will only be an advantage to THE CASINO, as players will play more, and thus stand to LOSE MORE over the long term, even though perfect play reduces the RATE PER $ of that loss.

    Perhaps the casino are now going to use this inquiry as a means to bring about claims of "bonus abuse" against players who used bonuses, and played a bit of Blackjack or VP.

    They may never be able to PROVE bot use, yet will seek to confiscate money based on what will probably be a "secret" set of criteria used to determine whether bots were used or not.
     
  6. Sep 28, 2008
  7. RobWin

    RobWin closed account

    Occupation:
    Who knows?
    Location:
    A Vault!
    Could be a stall tactic I imagine...have you received your payouts in the past in a timely manner ?? This is the first story I have heard about a casino using the "Bot" trump card in quite some time now...:what:

    The 'pirate' case...what a classic that was !!
     
    Last edited: Sep 29, 2008
  8. Sep 29, 2008
  9. evoid

    evoid Dormant account

    Location:
    Montreal, Canada
    They say they emailed CasinoMeister with their 'preliminary findings'.
    Can this be validated?
     
  10. Sep 29, 2008
  11. winbig

    winbig Keep winning this amount.

    Occupation:
    Bum
    Location:
    Pennsylvania
    If I were you, I'd go ahead and PM Max and/or Bryan to confirm this. It'd be quicker :)
     
  12. Sep 29, 2008
  13. sdaddy

    sdaddy Meister Member

    Occupation:
    Retired
    Location:
    Arizona
    I suppose that PlumGaming has every right to enforce a strict policy against "bot" play. But with all the audits and payment delays required, one wonders whether this is a worthwhile use of their time and resources.

    The bottom-line is that bots do not do anything to "enhance" the game by lowering the house advantage.
     
  14. Sep 29, 2008
  15. winbig

    winbig Keep winning this amount.

    Occupation:
    Bum
    Location:
    Pennsylvania
    Great point. Every single casino online or off, love when players do NOT play 100% perfect strategy. Why else would offline casinos give you free drinks until you're falling off the stool at a VP machine or at a Blackjack table? Or online casinos, for example, playing blackjack...This is EXACTLY why not one casino (other than 3Dice, sorry for the plug, but it's true) WARNS you when you attempt to hit/double any hand 17 or above. Their bread and butter comes from misclicks, and they love every one of them.
     
  16. Sep 29, 2008
  17. chuchu59

    chuchu59 gambling addict CAG PABnonaccred

    Occupation:
    EXECUTIVE
    Location:
    SOMEWHERE IN ASIA
    This is ridiculous. What does the casino mean by saying the use of bots by some will affect bona fide players. Unless the overall payback is fixed at a certain % and the bot users win more resulting in a loss for others, this doesnt make sense at all.

    MG has expert mode on both BJ and JOB VP. Wouldnt that be tantamount to having a bot play for you. So why should it not be the same for Netentertainment?
     
    1 person likes this.
  18. Sep 29, 2008
  19. maxd

    maxd Complaints (PAB) Manager Staff Member

    Occupation:
    The PAB Guy
    Location:
    Saltirelandia
    I received an email on this from them over the weekend, haven't yet had time to look into it in detail.
     
  20. Sep 29, 2008
  21. Casinomeister

    Casinomeister Forum Cheermeister Staff Member

    Occupation:
    Homemaker
    Location:
    Bierland
    Actually bot use is easy to detect, and when compared to regular player playing habits, it sticks out like a sore thumb.

    I'll check out what they sent to Max.
     
  22. Sep 29, 2008
  23. evoid

    evoid Dormant account

    Location:
    Montreal, Canada
    Well, as I said earlier, I believe Plum will need to be transparent about their methodology. People should have a chance to judge for themselves if it's sound.

    In the meantime I verified that on the two sessions for which they are withholding my payouts, I played only about 10% JoB (10% of total bet amount, that is) and no blackjack.

    According to their email, my payouts shouldn't even be withheld as I haven't played primarily JoB, not by a long shot.
     
  24. Sep 30, 2008
  25. Casinomeister

    Casinomeister Forum Cheermeister Staff Member

    Occupation:
    Homemaker
    Location:
    Bierland
    I think what's happening is this website is offering bots for sale (casibot.com), and it lists the casinos and names the games that the bot supports. These casinos are probably scrutinizing the gameplay that these games.

    And yes, to answer VWM's query in the Betfair bot thread, Betfair is mentioned as a targeted casino. So bots can be used at Chartwell casinos.

    LOL - the FAQ on the bot site doesn't warn it's customers that bot use is strictly prohibited at most casinos. :rolleyes:
     
  26. Sep 30, 2008
  27. Slotster!

    Slotster! I predict a riot. CAG

    Occupation:
    al Hazard
    Location:
    Location, Location!
    Thank-you.

    Casino's clearly don't like it when the 'human element' is removed... Otherwise known as 'tilt'... otherwise known as 'the biggest money makers in the casino'.

    I've not a fan/in favour of anything that enhances your play or bots or whatever (what's the point!?? I'm in this for the fun/gambling experience) -- but I can't really see the problem with something like video poker.

    Edit:

    [​IMG]


    They've obviously been busy updating the site too. :lolup: :lolup:
     
    Last edited: Sep 30, 2008
  28. Sep 30, 2008
  29. vinylweatherman

    vinylweatherman You type well loads CAG MM

    Occupation:
    STILL At Leisure
    Location:
    United Kingdom
    Well, they have certainly moved on since they were "casinorobots.com". The bot is specifically advertised for "bonus bagging" rather than simply making play easier for such things as wagering tournaments. The original bot only worked at Cassava software blackjack (and still does), but has expanded to include RTG and Microgaming, as well as Chartwell. The MG bot targets All Aces VP rather than Blackjack, but this is mis-selling, the VARIANCE is huge at All Aces, and the bot will NOT necessarily yield the expected value listed.
    Casino Hold-em is also included, and it seems they have a link to "beatingbonuses.com", making it likely these bots are being widely used - more so than I (and probably many of us) had expected. They are dirt cheap too, $150 for the ultimate, with an advertised "yield" of some 10K, so no wonder they are being snapped up.

    Perhaps the targeted casinos have invested $150 in one, taken it apart, and worked out how to detect it. The creators have ALREADY MADE THEIR MONEY, and they are now knocking them out cheaply to get as much as they can because the casinos are on to this, and are detecting them.

    They provide a convenient list of targeted casinos, silly really, as if I can read it, so can the operators of said targets. For anyone thinking of bagging boni with this bot, don't bother, IT'S OVER - don't be "sheep", be original.
     
  30. Sep 30, 2008
  31. quber

    quber Senior Member

    Occupation:
    spy
    Location:
    Europe
    Chartwell also warn if you try to take a card on 17 or above, including soft hands.
     
    1 person likes this.
  32. Sep 30, 2008
  33. Slotster!

    Slotster! I predict a riot. CAG

    Occupation:
    al Hazard
    Location:
    Location, Location!
    Do MG not warn you about this? I'm sure I've seen it and I can't think why I would play BJ at another software provider... Maybe I did, but it definitely wouldn't have been 3Dice or Chartwell??? :confused:
     
  34. Sep 30, 2008
  35. Squish

    Squish Dormant account

    Occupation:
    Student
    Location:
    United Kingdom
    Just to clear up a few issues casinorobots and casibot are two completely separate companies/products. Casinorobots was a scam and their products didn't exist/didn't work. Casibot has been going for a long time and has a client base of ~1000 customers (it is widely regarded as the leading bonus hustling bot).

    This is not the first time Plum Gaming have tried to ban bot players. Last time it happened they confiscated funds from many players who were not using bots. As a result Plum Gaming has one of the worst reputations of any casino among advantage players and very few bonus hunters will go near it nowadays (that includes those with a bot).
     
  36. Oct 1, 2008
  37. DiamondGeezer

    DiamondGeezer Dormant account PABnononaccred2 PABnoaccred PABaccred

    Occupation:
    Antiques Dealer
    Location:
    NOT Pennsylvania!!!
    I last played at Plum about 6 months ago and I had great difficulty in getting paid. I eventually got my money after about a month and it was a real nightmare. Emails were all totally ignored but whenever I would threaten to post on public forums/report to LGA they would pay within 2 hours - but never with a reply! I would advise anyone to avoid this place as they don't appear to be well funded.
     
  38. Oct 1, 2008
  39. maxd

    maxd Complaints (PAB) Manager Staff Member

    Occupation:
    The PAB Guy
    Location:
    Saltirelandia
    Unfortunately what you've experienced seems to be "business as usual" with them.

    We've handled a number of Plum Gaming complaints over the last few months and it's always the same story: player gets no response from casino, player posts PAB, PAB is submitted to casino, problem solved!

    I was hoping that they would see the light and clean up their MO but it doesn't sound like that is happening.
     
    Last edited: Oct 1, 2008
    1 person likes this.

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