PlumGaming withholding payments while inquiring into supposed 'bot' play.

evoid

Dormant account
Joined
Aug 6, 2004
Location
Montreal, Canada
I received this from PlumGaming on Sept. 26 :
Dear Player

Sadly the Plum Gaming casino has been subjected to some unscrupulous play by what we believe to be a small number of players.

It has come to our attention that a number of casino bots have been available for some time which not only enable enhanced play on such games as blackjack and jacks or better video poker, but their continued usage, if allowed, could well affect fairness to other, bona fide players.

It has always been made quite clear in our terms and conditions that any enhanced play by external software will not be tolerated on the Plum Gaming site and we now have to undertake an audit over the past few months of all players, not only those whose play is glaringly suspicious.

To that end it has become necessary to check all the hands played by any player who has used primarily the Jacks or Better video poker game within the casino. If you are awaiting a payout having played this game it may take a little longer than usual but please understand that to ensure our ethos of 'fair play for all' we have to make the checks. Unfortunately, as ever, it is a case of the few making problems for the many.

We have contacted a number of casino forums including Casinomeister and the Lotteries and Gaming Authority of Malta, who are our regulators, with a copy of this email and a detailed indication of our preliminary findings.

We would like to assure you that in the event you have been playing fairly and with no external software enhancements you should have nothing to worry about, your funds are safe and any outstanding withdrawal requests will be processed as soon as possible.

If you have any queries about this email please contact us at info@plumgaming.com.

Yours sincerely
As a player affected by the payout delay, I have already emailed the casino stating that, although I played some JoB videopoker (I played primarily Texas Hold'em Pro), I did so without the use of a bot or any form of software assistance.
The problem is that even though they say players who played fairly should no worry, I cannot help worrying. For instance, I ask myself if this isn't just an excuse to delay/deny payouts. I also ask myself what method they will use to determine who, if anyone, has been using a bot. I remember that one of the high points of the 'pirate' case came when RTG people revealed that
their software cannot track mouse movements. If this is also true of the NetEntertainment software, that leaves as possible telltales : time intervals between clicks (a bot would presumably click at more regular time intervals than a human) and (that's where it gets scary) perfect strategy. It strikes me that these 'bot indicators' are all at least somewhat problematic which is why I believe this whole 'witholding payments during our bot inquiry' thing to be problematic itself.
 

winbig

Keep winning this amount.
Joined
Mar 10, 2005
Location
Pennsylvania
This is ridiculous. For them to assume that a bot will simply play in a patternable fashion just shows that they don't know wtf they're talking about. IF I were to program a bot for the sole purpose of playing casino games for cash, I would certainly program it so that EVERY step is 100% random, including times between clicks. Hell, it might even be worthwhile to throw in a random "double" every now and then for good measure as well as a 'trip to the bathroom' break. Therefore, there would be NO trace that would leave them to believe it wasn't a human playing the game.
 

vinylweatherman

You type well loads
Joined
Oct 14, 2004
Location
United Kingdom
I received this from PlumGaming on Sept. 26 :


As a player affected by the payout delay, I have already emailed the casino stating that, although I played some JoB videopoker (I played primarily Texas Hold'em Pro), I did so without the use of a bot or any form of software assistance.
The problem is that even though they say players who played fairly should no worry, I cannot help worrying. For instance, I ask myself if this isn't just an excuse to delay/deny payouts. I also ask myself what method they will use to determine who, if anyone, has been using a bot. I remember that one of the high points of the 'pirate' case came when RTG people revealed that
their software cannot track mouse movements. If this is also true of the NetEntertainment software, that leaves as possible telltales : time intervals between clicks (a bot would presumably click at more regular time intervals than a human) and (that's where it gets scary) perfect strategy. It strikes me that these 'bot indicators' are all at least somewhat problematic which is why I believe this whole 'witholding payments during our bot inquiry' thing to be problematic itself.
VERY scary indeed! It seems they are using this as a reason for a GLOBAL suspension of payments, even though only a few players are thought to be using bots. This is a CASINO, not a POKER site, so there can be NO EFFECT on OTHER PLAYERS unless they have some multi-player games. I do not believe that Jacks or Better is played against another player, and that ONLY leaves the possibility of bot play on a multi-player Blackjack table.

Perfect strategy alone is NOT EVIDENCE of bot play, it can indicate an experienced player who has played the game for a LONG time, OR simply someone who has printed out a strategy table from somewhere, and is using it.

IF they are looking at hand histories as they state, the ONLY indicator they can be looking for is sustained perfect play over a prolonged period, with no "hand stretching" or "piss breaks" interrupting the regular clicking of the controls.
Where the games have a natural house edge, bot play will only be an advantage to THE CASINO, as players will play more, and thus stand to LOSE MORE over the long term, even though perfect play reduces the RATE PER $ of that loss.

Perhaps the casino are now going to use this inquiry as a means to bring about claims of "bonus abuse" against players who used bonuses, and played a bit of Blackjack or VP.

They may never be able to PROVE bot use, yet will seek to confiscate money based on what will probably be a "secret" set of criteria used to determine whether bots were used or not.
 

RobWin

closed account
Joined
Apr 24, 2004
Location
A Vault!
I received this from PlumGaming on Sept. 26 :


As a player affected by the payout delay, I have already emailed the casino stating that, although I played some JoB videopoker (I played primarily Texas Hold'em Pro), I did so without the use of a bot or any form of software assistance.
The problem is that even though they say players who played fairly should no worry, I cannot help worrying. For instance, I ask myself if this isn't just an excuse to delay/deny payouts. I also ask myself what method they will use to determine who, if anyone, has been using a bot. I remember that one of the high points of the 'pirate' case came when RTG people revealed that
their software cannot track mouse movements. If this is also true of the NetEntertainment software, that leaves as possible telltales : time intervals between clicks (a bot would presumably click at more regular time intervals than a human) and (that's where it gets scary) perfect strategy. It strikes me that these 'bot indicators' are all at least somewhat problematic which is why I believe this whole 'witholding payments during our bot inquiry' thing to be problematic itself.
Could be a stall tactic I imagine...have you received your payouts in the past in a timely manner ?? This is the first story I have heard about a casino using the "Bot" trump card in quite some time now...:what:

The 'pirate' case...what a classic that was !!
 
Last edited:

sdaddy

Meister Member
Joined
Feb 18, 2005
Location
Arizona
I suppose that PlumGaming has every right to enforce a strict policy against "bot" play. But with all the audits and payment delays required, one wonders whether this is a worthwhile use of their time and resources.

The bottom-line is that bots do not do anything to "enhance" the game by lowering the house advantage.
 

winbig

Keep winning this amount.
Joined
Mar 10, 2005
Location
Pennsylvania
The bottom-line is that bots do not do anything to "enhance" the game by lowering the house advantage.
Great point. Every single casino online or off, love when players do NOT play 100% perfect strategy. Why else would offline casinos give you free drinks until you're falling off the stool at a VP machine or at a Blackjack table? Or online casinos, for example, playing blackjack...This is EXACTLY why not one casino (other than 3Dice, sorry for the plug, but it's true) WARNS you when you attempt to hit/double any hand 17 or above. Their bread and butter comes from misclicks, and they love every one of them.
 

chuchu59

gambling addict
PABnonaccred
CAG
Joined
Sep 26, 2004
Location
SOMEWHERE IN ASIA
This is ridiculous. What does the casino mean by saying the use of bots by some will affect bona fide players. Unless the overall payback is fixed at a certain % and the bot users win more resulting in a loss for others, this doesnt make sense at all.

MG has expert mode on both BJ and JOB VP. Wouldnt that be tantamount to having a bot play for you. So why should it not be the same for Netentertainment?
 

maxd

Complaints (PAB) Manager
Staff member
Joined
Jan 20, 2004
Location
Saltirelandia
They say they emailed CasinoMeister with their 'preliminary findings'.
Can this be validated?
I received an email on this from them over the weekend, haven't yet had time to look into it in detail.
 

Casinomeister

Forum Cheermeister
Staff member
Joined
Jun 30, 1998
Location
Bierland
... I remember that one of the high points of the 'pirate' case came when RTG people revealed that
their software cannot track mouse movements. If this is also true of the NetEntertainment software, that leaves as possible telltales : time intervals between clicks (a bot would presumably click at more regular time intervals than a human) and (that's where it gets scary) perfect strategy. It strikes me that these 'bot indicators' are all at least somewhat problematic which is why I believe this whole 'witholding payments during our bot inquiry' thing to be problematic itself.
Actually bot use is easy to detect, and when compared to regular player playing habits, it sticks out like a sore thumb.

I'll check out what they sent to Max.
 

evoid

Dormant account
Joined
Aug 6, 2004
Location
Montreal, Canada
Well, as I said earlier, I believe Plum will need to be transparent about their methodology. People should have a chance to judge for themselves if it's sound.

In the meantime I verified that on the two sessions for which they are withholding my payouts, I played only about 10% JoB (10% of total bet amount, that is) and no blackjack.

According to their email, my payouts shouldn't even be withheld as I haven't played primarily JoB, not by a long shot.
 

Casinomeister

Forum Cheermeister
Staff member
Joined
Jun 30, 1998
Location
Bierland
I think what's happening is this website is offering bots for sale (casibot.com), and it lists the casinos and names the games that the bot supports. These casinos are probably scrutinizing the gameplay that these games.

And yes, to answer VWM's query in the Betfair bot thread, Betfair is mentioned as a targeted casino. So bots can be used at Chartwell casinos.

LOL - the FAQ on the bot site doesn't warn it's customers that bot use is strictly prohibited at most casinos. :rolleyes:
 

Slotster!

I predict a riot.
CAG
Joined
Oct 17, 2004
Location
Location, Location!
The bottom-line is that bots do not do anything to "enhance" the game by lowering the house advantage.
Thank-you.

Casino's clearly don't like it when the 'human element' is removed... Otherwise known as 'tilt'... otherwise known as 'the biggest money makers in the casino'.

I've not a fan/in favour of anything that enhances your play or bots or whatever (what's the point!?? I'm in this for the fun/gambling experience) -- but I can't really see the problem with something like video poker.

Edit:

website is offering bots for sale (casibot.com), and it lists the casinos and names the games that the bot supports. .



They've obviously been busy updating the site too. :lolup: :lolup:
 
Last edited:

vinylweatherman

You type well loads
Joined
Oct 14, 2004
Location
United Kingdom
I think what's happening is this website is offering bots for sale (casibot.com), and it lists the casinos and names the games that the bot supports. These casinos are probably scrutinizing the gameplay that these games.

And yes, to answer VWM's query in the Betfair bot thread, Betfair is mentioned as a targeted casino. So bots can be used at Chartwell casinos.

LOL - the FAQ on the bot site doesn't warn it's customers that bot use is strictly prohibited at most casinos. :rolleyes:
Well, they have certainly moved on since they were "casinorobots.com". The bot is specifically advertised for "bonus bagging" rather than simply making play easier for such things as wagering tournaments. The original bot only worked at Cassava software blackjack (and still does), but has expanded to include RTG and Microgaming, as well as Chartwell. The MG bot targets All Aces VP rather than Blackjack, but this is mis-selling, the VARIANCE is huge at All Aces, and the bot will NOT necessarily yield the expected value listed.
Casino Hold-em is also included, and it seems they have a link to "beatingbonuses.com", making it likely these bots are being widely used - more so than I (and probably many of us) had expected. They are dirt cheap too, $150 for the ultimate, with an advertised "yield" of some 10K, so no wonder they are being snapped up.

Perhaps the targeted casinos have invested $150 in one, taken it apart, and worked out how to detect it. The creators have ALREADY MADE THEIR MONEY, and they are now knocking them out cheaply to get as much as they can because the casinos are on to this, and are detecting them.

They provide a convenient list of targeted casinos, silly really, as if I can read it, so can the operators of said targets. For anyone thinking of bagging boni with this bot, don't bother, IT'S OVER - don't be "sheep", be original.
 

quber

Senior Member
Joined
Feb 25, 2004
Location
Europe
This is EXACTLY why not one casino (other than 3Dice, sorry for the plug, but it's true) WARNS you when you attempt to hit/double any hand 17 or above. Their bread and butter comes from misclicks, and they love every one of them.
Chartwell also warn if you try to take a card on 17 or above, including soft hands.
 

Slotster!

I predict a riot.
CAG
Joined
Oct 17, 2004
Location
Location, Location!
Do MG not warn you about this? I'm sure I've seen it and I can't think why I would play BJ at another software provider... Maybe I did, but it definitely wouldn't have been 3Dice or Chartwell??? :confused:
 

Squish

Dormant account
Joined
Aug 19, 2008
Location
United Kingdom
Well, they have certainly moved on since they were "casinorobots.com". The bot is specifically advertised for "bonus bagging" rather than simply making play easier for such things as wagering tournaments. The original bot only worked at Cassava software blackjack (and still does), but has expanded to include RTG and Microgaming, as well as Chartwell. The MG bot targets All Aces VP rather than Blackjack, but this is mis-selling, the VARIANCE is huge at All Aces, and the bot will NOT necessarily yield the expected value listed.
Just to clear up a few issues casinorobots and casibot are two completely separate companies/products. Casinorobots was a scam and their products didn't exist/didn't work. Casibot has been going for a long time and has a client base of ~1000 customers (it is widely regarded as the leading bonus hustling bot).

This is not the first time Plum Gaming have tried to ban bot players. Last time it happened they confiscated funds from many players who were not using bots. As a result Plum Gaming has one of the worst reputations of any casino among advantage players and very few bonus hunters will go near it nowadays (that includes those with a bot).
 

DiamondGeezer

Dormant account
PABaccred
PABnoaccred
PABnononaccred2
Joined
May 13, 2007
Location
NOT Pennsylvania!!!
I last played at Plum about 6 months ago and I had great difficulty in getting paid. I eventually got my money after about a month and it was a real nightmare. Emails were all totally ignored but whenever I would threaten to post on public forums/report to LGA they would pay within 2 hours - but never with a reply! I would advise anyone to avoid this place as they don't appear to be well funded.
 

maxd

Complaints (PAB) Manager
Staff member
Joined
Jan 20, 2004
Location
Saltirelandia
... Emails were all totally ignored but whenever I would threaten to post on public forums/report to LGA they would pay ....
Unfortunately what you've experienced seems to be "business as usual" with them.

We've handled a number of Plum Gaming complaints over the last few months and it's always the same story: player gets no response from casino, player posts PAB, PAB is submitted to casino, problem solved!

I was hoping that they would see the light and clean up their MO but it doesn't sound like that is happening.
 
Last edited:

Users Who Are Viewing This Thread (Users: 0, Guests: 1)

Top