Playtech rigged slots?

[thelawnet]

I was looking at the game Ocean Princess in free play mode, and observed that it does not play the same as in real mode.

Specifically, the blank stop between the Turtle and Wild symbols never occurs in free play, but occurs often in real mode.

Since this game is supposed to be skill-based paying close to 100% with optimum strategy, the effect of this is that the game will in fact pay well over 100% in free play mode, but less than 100% in real play mode.

Free play mode stops with Wilds:

Wild Blank RedStar
Blank Wild Blank

Real play mode stops with Wilds:

Turtle Blank Wild
Wild Blank RedStar
Blank Wild Blank

Ugga Bugga, which is the same game with different graphics shows the same:

Free Play

Wild Blank BlackMask
Blank Wild Blank

Real Play

Wild Blank BlackMask
Blank Wild Blank
Tribesman Blank Wild

I have verified this on Bet365 and Betfred in both instant and download casinos.

 

[Balthazar]

I'm gonna go ahead and blame the help file.

 

[premiergaming]

I'm gonna go ahead and blame the help file.

haha!

 

[mrmark21]

I'm gonna go ahead and blame the help file.

That actually made me laugh!

 

[Nifty29]

Absolutely disgraceful.

One of my pet hates is misrepresentation of any kind, and this is top shelf scamming.

Maybe it's time for Playtech casinos to be removed from the accredited list until their other games are investigated.

 

[Seventh777]

The second case of a rigged game that plays differently in free play to real play, both originate from different software's, and Betfred has/had them both, what are the odds on that? on the thousands of different games out there.

 

[ChopleyIOM]

Can anyone suggest a fine accredited casino I can play these wonderful games at?

Preferably one where I might win a Jaguar if I get really lucky.

 

[chuchu59]

Since many players cannot have access to playtech slots it would be great if someone posts screenshots illustrating what the lawnet has said.

 

[Nifty29]

Can anyone suggest a fine accredited casino I can play these wonderful games at?

Preferably one where I might win a Jaguar if I get really lucky.

Its the weekend, and Bryan is probably spending time with family.

You've made your point over and over today. We get it.

Maybe have some respect for your host and give him time to respond?

 

[ChopleyIOM]

Its the weekend, and Bryan is probably spending time with family.

You've made your point over and over today. We get it.

Maybe have some respect for your host and give him time to respond?

I'm sorry Nifty but my respect has gone. The re-adding (again) of Betfred to the accredited list with that 'explanation' is truly gob-smacking.

If Bryan or another moderator here wishes to ban me, I will take it on the chin and leave.

 

[Nifty29]

I'm sorry Nifty but my respect has gone. The re-adding (again) of Betfred to the accredited list with that 'explanation' is truly gob-smacking.

If Bryan or another moderator here wishes to ban me, I will take it on the chin and leave.

If you have no respect for the man and his site, why do you need a mod or Bryan to ban you?

Just leave.

The whole "ban me if you like/dare" just smacks of grandstanding and wanting to become some kind of martyr.

I thought you were above that kind of thing. You're a good guy. You should know that making comments like you have today isn't going to solve the problem....its just going to create more.

A PM would have been a much better idea. As it stands, you've pretty much dissed the guy in public so your chance of a full hearing might be compromised.

One question....do we know precisely when the betfred entry was updated?

 

[ChopleyIOM]

If you have no respect for the man and his site, why do you need a mod or Bryan to ban you?

Because I like a lot of the folks and discussion here. A forum is more than just its owner.

Just leave.

See above.

The whole "ban me if you like/dare" just smacks of grandstanding and wanting to become some kind of martyr.

I thought you were above that kind of thing. You're a good guy. You should know that making comments like you have today isn't going to solve the problem....its just going to create more.

It's not a case of grandstanding Nifty. I'm genuinely bothered by how this whole Betfred thing has panned out, I had a huge amount of respect for Bryan and the entire CM site, I really did see him as an honest broker between the players and the casinos. Our first, last, and only line of defence. I name-dropped this site time and time again on my YouTube channel, on other forums I post to, and face to face with my IRL friends - it was my default answer to any question about online casinos.

'Go to Casinomeister's site, follow the advice there, play only off his accredited list, you won't go wrong.'

The way this Betfred fiasco has panned out is upsetting to me, it really is. And to see the 'help file explanation' against Betfred's entry on the accredited list (which contradicts even what Betfred themselves said about the game) is just dreadful.

I gave Bryan the benefit of the doubt over the Jag promotion, despite Betfred's behaviour being farcical IMO. This time, I'm not able to do that.

 

[KasinoKing]

I was looking at the game Ocean Princess in free play mode, and observed that it does not play the same as in real mode.

Specifically, the blank stop between the Turtle and Wild symbols never occurs in free play, but occurs often in real mode.

Since this game is supposed to be skill-based paying close to 100% with optimum strategy, the effect of this is that the game will in fact pay well over 100% in free play mode, but less than 100% in real play mode.

Free play mode stops with Wilds:

Wild Blank RedStar
Blank Wild Blank

Real play mode stops with Wilds:

Turtle Blank Wild
Wild Blank RedStar
Blank Wild Blank

Ugga Bugga, which is the same game with different graphics shows the same:

Free Play

Wild Blank BlackMask
Blank Wild Blank

Real Play

Wild Blank BlackMask
Blank Wild Blank
Tribesman Blank Wild

I have verified this on Bet365 and Betfred in both instant and download casinos.

Sorry, I just don't get what you are saying at all, as you seem to be stating "Blank" next to "Wild" each time - you haven't said "Turtle - Wild" once.
Can you explain it better, or give screenshots?

BTW, I believe these are "weighted" games and that each reel position spins independently.

KK

 

[The Dude]

Hi ChopleyIOM,

As I mentioned with the closing of the Finsoft thread is that there is an ongoing investigation that will be shedding more light on the situation. There is much more than what you know. I would appreciate patience on your part and allow "due process" of a proper investigation be conducted. I stated that I was waiting for the investigation to be completed before moving on with this issue. You are putting the cart before the horse. You don't know what really has happened. You haven't been exchanging emails with the GRA as I have so just chill out.

You are grandstanding, beating your chest, and being egged on by people who don't have inside knowledge of what has happened here. I never said it was over, so I would caution you on "burning your bridges" so to speak and show a little patience and respect.

 

[naththo]

I am not sure whether those are rigged. I don't think it is legal for casino to make software rigged. It is illegal so casino cannot do that, there is a hefty fined for the penalty of it. Even some hacker try to rig it while playing at their casino so obviously someone is misusing their casino while being a casino customer user to play on their casino. There is fair chance I can be of certain its the hacker fault for tricking us/fool us. But I am not concluding it yet. So will wait for investigation to be completed and we can become known for what certain result is. Of course we do need some patience to wait for the investigation to be completed. At the moment. We just need a lot more evidence than just few. It takes a while. I do hope they will come up with a good conclusion at the mean time.

 

[mrmark21]

I'm looking forward to the conclusion because I for one have honestly been scared off Playtech casinos for now.

 

[dunover]

I have avoided Playtech for a while - I have played at about 10 of them, and only made a gain on 2. On MG I have come out on top in about 50% of those I joined. Same with IGT ones. I find the games are too volatile to have any gameplay on if you are a low-roller. Plus, unless you play at the infamous Betfred/Betfair/PP and a couple of others, you are held over a barrel with 4-day pending w/d periods. I must say I have had far better fun playing in 'free mode' there than real money, but that could just be coincidence.

 

[thelawnet]

Sorry, I just don't get what you are saying at all, as you seem to be stating "Blank" next to "Wild" each time - you haven't said "Turtle - Wild" once.
Can you explain it better, or give screenshots?

BTW, I believe these are "weighted" games and that each reel position spins independently.

KK

If you fire up the game you will understand better.

The reels basically consist of

symbol
blank
symbol
blank

etc.

You never get

symbol
symbol

With slots you always can see the stop immediately before and after the one you actually landed on. So if you land on wild, or turtle, or whatever, the stops immediately above and below will be blank. And if you land on blank, you can see the stops immediately above and below the blank.

Yes these will be weighted, but it doesn't make any difference - the point is that one of the blank stops (no pay) occurs in real play mode but doesn't occur in free play

You can confirm this easily by playing in free play mode; this:


position (the one on the second reel, second line)

does not occur (this screenshot is in real mode - this stop occurs frequently - within half-a-dozen spins - in real play, but never in free play)

 

[Richas]

It certainly looks like another play game not operating as the real game does and so is a breach of the GRA regulations. Not as bad as a false RTP or improper use of cards or a non random RNG as has been alleged but a breach.

I want to be patient, I will be patient, I must be patient.
I want to be patient, I will be patient, I must be patient.

The GRA, Finsoft and BetFred have the weekend to contend with so we could have expected no news yesterday or today. From a PR perspective surely they will all want to make public statements soon...wont they?

I hope CM is having a well deserved weekend himself and I'm sure we will hear as soon as is practicable....just a shame I have run out of popcorn. Even an ETA for an update - ie no news until at least noon Monday and then just maybe a CM holding statement ...would help my mantra

I want to be patient, I will be patient, I must be patient.

 

[KasinoKing]

With slots you always can see the stop immediately before and after the one you actually landed on. So if you land on wild, or turtle, or whatever, the stops immediately above and below will be blank. And if you land on blank, you can see the stops immediately above and below the blank.

Yes, I understand all that.
Maybe I'm being thick (again!), but I still don't get what the issue is. Are you saying:
a) The reel strips are different between real and fun play mode?
or
b) The reel strips are the same in real and fun play mode, but that a certain symbol never lands on a win line?

e.g. from your first post:

Free play mode stops with Wilds:

Wild Blank RedStar
Blank Wild Blank

So the layout is:
Blank
Wild
Blank
Red Star

Real play mode stops with Wilds:

Turtle Blank Wild
Wild Blank RedStar
Blank Wild Blank

Turtle
Blank
Wild
Blank
Red Star

So, apart from you mentioning the turtle in the real-play example, what is different?

KK

 

[Nifty29]

I never saw these slots as skill based. I figured they were weighted reels that lined up according to your hold choices I.e. it made no real difference what you hold, like AWPs, where they'll compensate for a bad decision in the next few spins....which is why I avoid them and always have.

I'd be interested to learn otherwise.

Has anyone run some test sessions to see if the payouts really are different?

Reel design and mechanics is not my strong point, so I'm a little confused like KK. I'm happy to defer to others with more expertise.

 

[clees42]

So, apart from you mentioning the turtle in the real-play example, what is different?

KK

i understood what he meant by this:

Free play mode stops with Wilds:

Wild Blank RedStar
Blank Wild Blank

Real play mode stops with Wilds:

Turtle Blank Wild
Wild Blank RedStar
Blank Wild Blank

He is saying that you see wilds in 2 patterns in free play and 3 patterns in real play.

in free play:
1. upper half wild, lower half redstar (miss)
2. wild in the middle (hit)

in real play:
1. upper half turtle, lower half wild (miss)
2. upper half wild, lower half redstar (miss)
3. wild in the middle (hit)

If what he says is true it could mean that the real play has added reel strips for near misses. This would imply lower rtp in real play than free play.

 

[243 lines=daft]

Hi. I do play these skill based slots on Playtech so I'm interested in thelawnet's point.
From trialling tonight, I thought I'd add these to add a further bit of illustration.

The left hand shot is REAL MONEY mode, the centre and right shots are FUN MONEY mode.

The blank between turtle and wild in the left hand shot (2nd reel from the bottom) is the occurence that does happen constantly in real play.

The turtles and wilds that appear on the right shot seem to appear more commonly 'on line' in demo mode.
The instance in the left hand shot does NOT happen in fun money mode afaics! (This being trialled this evening on the gala casino)

Note also the centre image. You'll see that the blank between Wild and red star happens very commonly in fun money mode just as it does in real mode.

I haven't yet checked whether this is also the case on Tropic reels which is in gameplay identical to oceans princess.



Thanks to Jufo for pointing out I hadn't inserted images properly. (I only joined recently )

 

[Jufo]

243 lines=daft, the attached images are not visible...?

 

[KasinoKing]

Hi. I do play these skill based slots on Playtech so I'm interested in thelawnet's point.

Where does skill come into play?
(Confused twice now!)

KK

 

[thelawnet]

It's basically a slots version of video poker.

For example, if you play Deuces Wild video poker and you get dealt 2h, 6h, 3h, 7s, tc, you'd hold the 2 and toss the other four cards.

With this game if you are dealt:

blank, wild, blank

then it's very obvious that you hold the wild and toss (don't hold) the blanks.

Obviously the more blanks that occur, the lower the return, all else being equal. In this case it is clear that there are more blanks in real play than in free play mode, and therefore the return of the game in real play is lower than in free play. Not only that, but the correct strategy for free play is not necessarily the correct strategy for real play, since the odds are different, and therefore if you practice with a certain strategy in free play mode and win, and then transfer that to real play, it can be expensive.

 

[Nifty29]

It's basically a slots version of video poker.

For example, if you play Deuces Wild video poker and you get dealt 2h, 6h, 3h, 7s, tc, you'd hold the 2 and toss the other four cards.

With this game if you are dealt:

blank, wild, blank

then it's very obvious that you hold the wild and toss (don't hold) the blanks.

Obviously the more blanks that occur, the lower the return, all else being equal. In this case it is clear that there are more blanks in real play than in free play mode, and therefore the return of the game in real play is lower than in free play. Not only that, but the correct strategy for free play is not necessarily the correct strategy for real play, since the odds are different, and therefore if you practice with a certain strategy in free play mode and win, and then transfer that to real play, it can be expensive.

How do we know what the underlying programming is? How do we know is doesn't compensate like an AWP?

I understand the "skill" element as described, but I'm not convinced, like in a slot, that "all things are equal" so to speak.

 

[243 lines=daft]

Interesting that the same issue is not found in Tropic Reels.

This is just one reel from a spin in fun mode and the exact equivalent blank (the blank between pineapple and tiger) is present and correct (twice in one reel in fact).

 

[thelawnet]

How do we know what the underlying programming is? How do we know is doesn't compensate like an AWP?

Read the help file.

I understand the "skill" element as described, but I'm not convinced, like in a slot, that "all things are equal" so to speak.

All things are not equal in the sense that you have the same chance of getting a Wild as getting a Cherry, or whatever.

Slots are made in two ways, firstly is a reel with repeated symbols, so that the jackpot symbol might appear once and the cherry ten times, or whatever. The other is that the reel stops are weighted, so the cherry and jackpot appear only once, but the cherry is weighted so it occurs ten times more often.

If there are n stops on a reel, then for a 3 reel slot there would be n^3 combinations, and for a 5 reel slot n^5. Because n^5 is much larger than n^3, 5-reel slots can easily be made without weighting - e.g., with 30 stops you have 2,700 combinations (which is insufficient for all but the most primitive slot) with 3 reels, but 2.43 million combinations with 5.

For this reason 3-reel slots are nearly always weighted, as indeed this one is, so the weight of getting a Wild is much lower than that of a less valuable symbol.

The issue here is not that the stops don't occur with equal frequency, clearly they do not, but rather that a particular losing position occurs in real play but not free play.

 

[maphesto]

Are there any accredited Playtech casinos notified about this thread?

If not, why? Betfred and Bet365...

Absolutely disgraceful.

One of my pet hates is misrepresentation of any kind, and this is top shelf scamming.

Maybe it's time for Playtech casinos to be removed from the accredited list until their other games are investigated.

Agree!

 

[maphesto]

I have notified reps for Betfred and Bet365 about this and Bet365 does not have this available in freeplay.

Betfred does...

 

[thelawnet]

I have notified reps for Betfred and Bet365 about this and Bet365 does not have this available in freeplay.

Betfred does...

to be clear, I tested this in free play at Betfred and in real play at Bet365, since I have a balance at Bet365 but not at Betfred

 

[243 lines=daft]

Lighting the torches for a Playtech witch hunt over this would probably be a bit pre-emptive.

The fact that the issue is not showing up in the Tropic Reels (as illustrated in my previous post) suggests this is more likely a genuine glitch than a software design.
(Tropic Reels is effectively the sister game to Ocean Princess and has identical gameplay with different graphics)

Surely Playtech will simply sort this asap when it is pointed out to them.

 

[Richas]

Lighting the torches for a Playtech witch hunt over this would probably be a bit pre-emptive.

The fact that the issue is not showing up in the Tropic Reels (as illustrated in my previous post) suggests this is more likely a genuine glitch than a software design.
(Tropic Reels is effectively the sister game to Ocean Princess and has identical gameplay with different graphics)

Surely Playtech will simply sort this asap when it is pointed out to them.

You would hope that they would sort it quickly but having one game that meets the rules on play games being the same as real money games is hardly a triumph. That is the minimum standard for all the play versions.

It cannot be a "glitch" if the game operates in a fundamentally different way. This is not an error in the coding but different game function by design. The software works - it just works with a different set of outcomes which coincidentally falsely represents the real money game by making the play game pay out more often.

The reason play games must operate exactly the same way according to the GRA is that if they don't they are misleading players as to how likely they are to win for real. Just having two different software packages for the same game is wrong by design - I mean how hard id it to just use the same game but not linked to real money? It would be easier to just have one game but they built two...that look nearly the same and there has to be a reason for such additional effort. Why not have one set of game code to test? The only motive for two different games is that they want the play game to be different.....

 

[thelawnet]

Lighting the torches for a Playtech witch hunt over this would probably be a bit pre-emptive.

The fact that the issue is not showing up in the Tropic Reels (as illustrated in my previous post) suggests this is more likely a genuine glitch than a software design.
(Tropic Reels is effectively the sister game to Ocean Princess and has identical gameplay with different graphics)

Surely Playtech will simply sort this asap when it is pointed out to them.

Tropic Reels is not the same game as Ocean Princess as the paytable is different, and therefore so are the reel weights.

The fact that a particular game in free play mode functions differently from the same game in real play in one respect, does not mean that a different game must be rigged in the same way.

All we know is that at least two games are rigged in a particular way, others might be rigged differently, or not at all.

 

[243 lines=daft]

Here is the full collection of Playtech games from the Multi-Spin family that were released amid great fanfare in 2006.

For convenience I have added a little devil avatar under the two games that this thread has pre-emptively condemned as proven rigged.



Ocean Princess and Ugga Bugga play identically

Tropic reels (as pointed out above) has a different paytable but otherwise looks and plays the same

Goblins cave and Triple profits have a different setup (eg 3 rows of reels instead of 5) but otherwise play in a similar way.

If the intention was to rig these slots then why only two of the five?

Stepping back from the technicals and looking at the fundamentals for a second, there is one other thing that doesn't make sense.

These games were designed as skill games, to crossover between the glitz of slots and the more skill based games of video poker.
Therefore directly targetting the exact kind of player who would be analysing strips, paytables etc to assess the perfect strategy to minimise HE!
To deliberately rig games that were targetted at such analytic minds, and to do so in such a way that the problem could be observed casually by the OP would surely be a crazy move..?!



BUT, having said that, if a variation on the real vs fun mismatch can be found in any of the other three games, I'd agree that would effectively prove rigging
so that is perhaps the 'smoking gun' that the lynch mob should be looking for.

 

[thelawnet]

Well given that the games were released in 2006 and it is now 2013, it doesn't seem that easy to uncover!

Anyway:

* we don't know whether the other slots are rigged in some other way, merely that the particular stop does occur in those games
* we don't know why this was done, but we can say that as the game does not play the same in real and free mode, then that's reason enough to be upset. They can come up with whatever justification they like TBH, the only thing we know to be true is that the game is not the same. They are liable for that , whatever the cause - any justification/damage limitation/spin they want to place on it is down to them.

 

[maphesto]

Do we know if these games are "sold" with different RTP options?

Free play mode was checked at one casino, and the real play mode was checked in another.

 

[Tagdog]

Would these be theoretically low house edge slots?
If so I could see a reason why they would be more likely to operate in freeplay and realplay than say a high HA slot

 

[Betfred]

Hi all,

Firstly, thanks to maphesto for the PM about this thread.

We've raised this with Playtech and we're hoping for a response very soon.

Thanks,

Aaron

 

[Richas]

Hi all,

Firstly, thanks to maphesto for the PM about this thread.

We've raised this with Playtech and we're hoping for a response very soon.

Thanks,

Aaron

Thanks for this Aaron.

Have you also asked your in house test team that carries out the mandatory quarterly tests of all your games for their view?

 

[243 lines=daft]

Mmmm... I can't find either
1 - any Playtech help file that states the RTP or
2 - any non-speculative documentation at all from 2006 that lists the RTP on these slots.

It would also be useful to find mapped reel strips which can be found commonly for MG games etc but seemingly not for Playtech.
For example it would be useful to count the number of red crowns (top symbol) appearing on the reels in Goblins cave in real and fun mode. (Unlike the three games already discussed, Goblin's cave does not have blanks on the reels so it's possibly a harder setup to map out by the end user.)

 

[Richas]

Mmmm... I can't find either
1 - any Playtech help file that states the RTP or
2 - any non-speculative documentation at all from 2006 that lists the RTP on these slots.

It would also be useful to find mapped reel strips which can be found commonly for MG games etc but seemingly not for Playtech.
For example it would be useful to count the number of red crowns (top symbol) appearing on the reels in Goblins cave in real and fun mode. (Unlike the three games already discussed, Goblin's cave does not have blanks on the reels so it's possibly a harder setup to map out by the end user.)

For clarity is that no RTP help file/information available for the real money version, the play money version or both?

Is this info missing today as well as for 2006 - are these games live but without the appropriate RTP information?

 

[243 lines=daft]

For clarity is that no RTP help file/information available for the real money version, the play money version or both?

Both

Is this info missing today as well as for 2006 - are these games live but without the appropriate RTP information?

Correct

 

[Richas]

Ok I'm puzzled now.

The gibraltar technical standards

You do not have permission to view link Log in or register now.

(6) The published game rules and information should be sufficient to explain to
customers all of the applicable rules and how to participate. As applicable, game
information should include the following:
a) the name of the game;
b) the applicable rules, including clear descriptions of what constitutes a winning
outcome;
c) any restrictions on play or betting, such as any play duration limits, maximum win
values, bet limits, etc;
d) the number of decks or frequency of shuffles in a virtual card game;
e) whether there are contributions to jackpots (“progressives”) and the way in which
the jackpot operates, for example, whether the jackpot is won by achieving a
particular outcome;
f) instructions on how to interact with the game; and
g) any rules pertaining to metamorphosis of games, for example, the number and
type of tokens that need to be collected in order to qualify for a feature or bonus
round and the rules and behaviour of the bonus round where they differ from the
main game.
h) Information about the likelihood of winning:
i) a description of the way the game works and the way in which winners are
determined and prizes allocated;
ii) For each game, information about the potential prizes and/or payouts
(including the means by which these are calculated) should be easily
available. This should include, where applicable:
(1) Pay tables, or the odds paid for particular outcomes.
(2) For peer-to-peer games where the prize is determined based on the
actions of the participants a description of the way the game works and
the rake or commission charged.
(3) For lotteries and other types of events where the potential amount or prize
paid out may not be known before the customer commits to gamble,
describing the way in which the prize amount is determined will be
sufficient.
(4) Displays of jackpot amounts that change over time (“progressives”)
should be regularly updated and as soon as possible after the jackpot has
been reset following a win.
..........
(11) The general playing rules and the payout percentage for a particular game should be
the same in free play mode as it is in the real money game.

Are you saying that for all these real money and play games the above information is not available?

 

[KasinoKing]

It would also be useful to find mapped reel strips which can be found commonly for MG games etc but seemingly not for Playtech.
For example it would be useful to count the number of red crowns (top symbol) appearing on the reels in Goblins cave in real and fun mode. (Unlike the three games already discussed, Goblin's cave does not have blanks on the reels so it's possibly a harder setup to map out by the end user.)

I'm 99% sure these are "weighted" slots - which means the reel-strips would not tell you anything.
(With weighted slots the reel strips often have only one of each symbol, but they are "weighted" by the software so that low value symbols land on the win-line more frequently than high value ones).

KK

 

[thelawnet]

Ok I'm puzzled now.

The gibraltar technical standards

You do not have permission to view link Log in or register now.

Are you saying that for all these real money and play games the above information is not available?

the paytable is published, but the odds of the stops are not.

 

[Richas]

the paytable is published, but the odds of the stops are not.

OK but they need to explain the likelihood of winning and the game operation.

I loved the list of slots with the devil pictures for proven discrepancy between play and real money games. Given the requirement to explain game operation and likelihood of winning a simple check that this data was the same for both play and real might reveal further discrepancies.

The games should operate exactly the same way so the game explanation and the explanation of the likelihood of winning should be identical.

As an aside

h) Information about the likelihood of winning:
i) a description of the way the game works and the way in which winners are
determined and prizes allocated;
ii) For each game, information about the potential prizes and/or payouts
(including the means by which these are calculated) should be easily
available. This should include, where applicable:
(1) Pay tables, or the odds paid for particular outcomes.

suggests full disclosure but it would seem that casinos don't need to/have not been explaining the likelihood of winning at all. A pay table tells you nothing about likelihood at all. I wonder if any game without information on the house edge or RTP really meets this requirement. Has anyone asked the GRA about specific games and whether they explain likelihood properly? It seems to me that like with slapping down an ATF certificate and then not testing themselves sites have taken the specified need for a pay table and forgotten the explanation of likelihood that is required along with the explanation of the way the game works. IMHO a pay table alone is just not enough to meet the requirement.

It seems to me that there is a lot of room here for non compliance on the slots listed without the baby devil (yet). Section H) and H) i) go beyond a pay table.

 

[thelawnet]

I don't read that as having to disclose the RTP.

They just say that they have to give a paytable or 'odds paid'.

The 'odds paid' for a blackjack are 3 to 2.

That doesn't tell you what the RTP of the game of blackjack is.

'Odds paid' is not the 'odds of a given event occurring'.

 

[Jufo]

suggests full disclosure but it would seem that casinos don't need to/have not been explaining the likelihood of winning at all. A pay table tells you nothing about likelihood at all. I wonder if any game without information on the house edge or RTP really meets this requirement. Has anyone asked the GRA about specific games and whether they explain likelihood properly? It seems to me that like with slapping down an ATF certificate and then not testing themselves sites have taken the specified need for a pay table and forgotten the explanation of likelihood that is required along with the explanation of the way the game works. IMHO a pay table alone is just not enough to meet the requirement.

It seems to be generally accepted that when you play slots you are playing with unknowns. The only thing you will get is the paytable but you get no information about how likely it is to hit a certain combination or hit a bonus round. It would be a good service to actually list these probabilities and currently I know of only one software provider who has done this, and it's Galewind (see Link Removed ( Old/Invalid) ). In fact I believe they did this page based on feedback from people on this very forum. The wording of GRA terms is ambigious but it seems they don't require odds to be expessed to the player in this detail. It would be good for transparency if this was a requirement though.