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Picking free spin options in games .. does it matter?

Discussion in 'Online Casinos' started by chiya, Jan 18, 2013.

    Jan 18, 2013
  1. chiya

    chiya Experienced Member PABnononaccred

    Location:
    Earth
    Sorry if this does not belong here, I wasn't sure where the general questions and such go .. And such topic probably already exists, but I fail at searching .. so sorry in advance :(

    My question is that does it matter which free spin mode you pick, or will the amount won always be the same regardless of your choice? Lets use Immortal Romance as an example here .. has 10 spins and 5x wins, 15 spins and 2-3x wild wins (random), 20 spins and collapsing reels with multipliers, and 25 spins with random wild feature.

    The way I've always thought this works is the same way normal spins work .. Each spin has an unique ID attached to it (some softwares even show this ID and it changes with each spin).. So, wouldn't that be the case for free spin feature too? The free spin feature has added features but each spin inside it will still be it's own and unique number. Thus it would make a great deal of difference whether you picked 10 at x5 wins or 25 spins at x1. .. Some agree with me. Others say that the wins won in free spins are part of the unique ID that gave you the 3+ scatters that triggered the feature .. So in the end it doesn't matter what you pick, the amount you win is set in stone.

    I am aware that when playing a bonus game it doesn't matter which boxes/symbols/whatever you choose, as it's predetermined when '' Collect '' will pop up, but free spins seem a tad different since each spin could be considered it's own game ..

    I've seen a lot of discussion about this on some other forums I frequent too and it seems everyone has a different opinion. However, I don't want an opinion, I want hard cold facts. Does anyone know? Feel free to discuss even if you don't know but I'd be happy to hear from someone who works in casino industry and knows these things for a fact.
     
  2. Jan 18, 2013
  3. dionysus

    dionysus can turn wine into water CAG MM

    Occupation:
    n/a
    Location:
    I'm a Canucklehead
    In games like TSII and IR, essentially, when you hit the FS, the game grabs a random set of spins from all available spins. A lot of 'poke the icons' are pre-determined; still random, just from a set assortment of end values (3Dice: Squirrel Pike).
    I can't see any game developers coming on board so I'd wager you'll get opinions mostly, but since there's some players here who are willing to do the maths and X spins to see results, at least you'll get informed opinions.
     
  4. Jan 18, 2013
  5. mrmark21

    mrmark21 Meister Member

    Occupation:
    Telecommunications Consultant
    Location:
    australia
    I agree with Dion, I don't think any game developers will come on board, so you'll probably receive more opinions...

    Having said that I used to believe that the whole free spins feature was predetermined the moment you won the feature. I am now leaning more towards that each spin comes from a different pool of outcomes than what would you would find in the base game. So picking the least spins with the highest multiplier increases variance and could get you that big win.
     
  6. Jan 18, 2013
  7. Slotster!

    Slotster! I predict a riot. CAG

    Occupation:
    al Hazard
    Location:
    Location, Location!
    This does come up a lot.

    Bonuses are pre-determined, regardless of how they are displayed to the player. Free spins, pick me - the financial outcome is decided the second you hit spin and the server spits back the amount of currency the 'event' (spin) will pay.

    The best way to demonstrate this in simple terms is bet 1 line at something like Ladies Nite or Spring Break. When you hit the freespins, it's AMAZING how many wins suddenly appear on that one line you picked to add up to a nice little round number win.

    Free spins are more exciting though because you never know if that monster hit might drop in on the last spin!
     
    3 people like this.
  8. Jan 18, 2013
  9. KasinoKing

    KasinoKing WebMeister & Slotaholic.. CAG MM PABnonaccred webmeister

    Occupation:
    House-Husband and Casino Advisor
    Location:
    Bexhill on sea, England
    You will not get any facts about this here, only opinions - sorry!

    In the example I bolded, those free-spins are not the same TYPE of spins: The 10 use the normal reel-set (AFAIK), whereas the 25 spins use a different set of reel-strips and have the added "random (?)" Wild Vine feature, which effects your winning chances.

    I don't believe the total win amount is decided before you even chose which type of spin to go for. I believe each type is random, but that the RTPs for each type are the same. In other words, the overall long-term chances are you will win the same amount from each.

    Of course, that is just my opinion! :p

    KK
     
  10. Jan 18, 2013
  11. colly

    colly Senior Member MM PABaccred

    Occupation:
    Finance (Corporate Tax)
    Location:
    sydney
    I am not sure with Micro gaming but I recall Dogboy did advise that for RTG the outcome of the pick a feature was predetermined as soon as you hit the free spin- e.g on Achilles whether you get 15 20 or 25 free spins is already determined and it makes no difference which Achilles you picked. This is different from the outcome of the spins though- logically the rng would work in the same manner and a result for each individual spin in the feature will be determined on each spin not as a set ahead of play for all the free spins.

    This is of course an opinion only but the total free spin result being predetermined does not sit with my understanding of random number generation
     
    1 person likes this.
  12. Jan 18, 2013
  13. Cogge

    Cogge Dormant account

    Occupation:
    Managing Director for CasinoEuro
    Location:
    Malta
    I'm no game developer, but wouldn't it be easier to program free spins just as it sounds, free spins (with a higher multiplier than regular spins in some games).

    It seems very tiresome to program the game sowhere the system pre-calculates (in TII's / imm romance / finer reels...) four different "plays" to show the player where the end-result is the same.

    To me, it makes no sense to go the extra mile of making the system more complex than it has to be.
     
  14. Jan 18, 2013
  15. 3Dice

    3Dice I-Gaming Industry Representative

    Occupation:
    -
    Location:
    -
    Hi distrance,

    I can tell you exactly how things work for 3Dice (not an opinion) - and I'd be honestly flabbergasted if they don't work the same way for other respected
    softwares. (as most of this is pinned down by regulatory requirements).

    Free spins work the same way as normal spins. I.e. before the next spin starts the client contacts the casino server, the server generates random reel positions
    and sends them back to the client. (you could easily monitor network traffic to see this happen btw). Before you finish your last freespin nobody knows what
    the total amount won will be.

    Whether or not the amount of freespins/multiplier picked influences the payout depends on whether or not the freespins retrigger.

    If freespins don't retrigger then picking 20x1 or 10x2 or 5x4 is the same in terms of RTP. (not in terms of variance tho)

    If freespins retrigger then 20x1 will have a slightly higher rtp than 10x2. (this is because you have a better chance to retrigger in
    20 spins than you do in 10)

    Hope that answers your question,

    Enzo
     
    19 people like this.
  16. Jan 18, 2013
  17. Simmo!

    Simmo! Moderator Staff Member

    Occupation:
    Web Dev.
    Location:
    England
    I would hazard a guess this works slightly differently on some games at Jackpot Party. If you play JP on a slightly slower computer you will notice on, for example, Bruce Lee that there is a momentary but noticeable freeze after you hit spin if a win is in progress.

    What I have noticed is that the length of the freeze, although always short, does vary and it seems related to the number of win-lines you are about to win on (Bruce Lee is a 60-line MoneyBurst game).

    What is interesting is that this also happens when the free spin triggers are about to land and the length of the pause still varies. The freeze doesn't occur on any of the 5 free spins either. This indicates to me that the overall number of paylines you are about to win on over the 5 free spins is already known. I'm not sure that applies to the amount you are about to win although logic suggests it probably does.

    I should re-iterate that this only seems to happen on some games. Although the freeze is still there on most games like Zeus for example and is still a good indiactor of a win or feature about to land, the length of pause doesn't equate to the size of win or number of paying paylines that I can tell on many of the other games. It's most notable on the games with more paylines like Bruce Lee, Fortunes of the Caribbean, Glitz, Lancelot or Rome & Egypt.

    Only a thought but this might have something to do with their automated video-system that records wins for playback. Or it might not.

    Fwiw, I also saw a similar sort of thing happen on a Quickfire casino I was testing last year (forget which) but the reels were spinning veeeery slow and there was a small pause before a win and feature there too (Thunderstruck) - but I think you'd have to hit a very busy server to catch that again and it definately wasn't pronounced enough to indicate win size.
     
  18. Jan 19, 2013
  19. rockycatt

    rockycatt meistercatt CAG MM

    Occupation:
    carpenter
    Location:
    Boston
    on bonus awards id like to use rival for a example comparison game is the back 9 bonus award were you play miniature golf I think /guess to my best that you can influence that outcome simply aim terribly and take maximum strokes

    Any input here
     
  20. Jan 19, 2013
  21. akrus88

    akrus88 Experienced Member

    Occupation:
    Student
    Location:
    Finland
    Exactly. Im having a bloody bad headache just by thinking how to programm all the IR freespin modes to give player exactly same return o.O.. just seems such a stubid thing to do.

    And 3dice, thanks for the facts!
     
  22. Jan 19, 2013
  23. KasinoKing

    KasinoKing WebMeister & Slotaholic.. CAG MM PABnonaccred webmeister

    Occupation:
    House-Husband and Casino Advisor
    Location:
    Bexhill on sea, England
    On the two Rival skill golf games, the number of strokes DEFINITELY effects the amount you win.
    The prize multiplier is always the same for 1, 2, 3 strokes, etc...

    KK
     
    1 person likes this.

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